The Trinity Doctrine

[music4two]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2006,02:27)

Quote I am curious why every time I ask a simple question about the functionality of doctrine or the purpose for doctrine, every one avoids the question like the plague? Are their those on the board that are living in a fantasy? Do they think that debating head knowledge about doctrines, that serve no purpose in reality, is something of value? M42 You are right concerning the functionality of doctrine. I can only speak for my self. But I find that open discussion and dialogue of the scriptures can be very beneficial. It causes me to search the scripture for the truth. However, is knowledge of the scriptures enough? Absolutely not. Jesus said search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life. So scripture without having the Spirit the teacher will only leave us with a dead letter. But, the more scripture that we know then the more the Holy Ghost can bring it to our remembrance and bring that scripture alive in us. This is how we are changed and become more like him through the living word, the incorruptable seed. We are being changed daily through the living word of God. Man shall not live by bread only, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. So simply debating head knowledge about doctrine is not beneficial. But if it is a stepping-stone to challenge me to defend the faith as well as to seek out the truth of a matter, then I see it as good thing and it will produce fruit. But we need the revelation knowledge of God. Paul prayed for the Ephesians… Eph 1: 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Jesus expounded the scriptures to his disciples and they still didn’t **know him**… Lk 24:15,16 And it came to pass, that, while they communed [together] and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. Lk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. But when he began to fellowship with them…. Lk24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. Jesus wasn’t playing head games with them. He was creating a desire in them to see him. This shows us the desire God has for all of his children, that we should hunger and thirst for him who is our righteousness and we will be filled. So study and dialogue is important, thats why Jesus expounded the scriptures to them, but the end result of that should be fellowship with God. Blessings

Perhaps you missunderstood my post. I do agree that studying scripture is important but studying doctrines that do nothing to make us like Christ are a waste of time. Doctrines that are usefull as only head knowledge. As I have posted before, all teachings or doctrines must pass a simple test. Does the teaching help you to become more like Christ? In the case of some doctrines preposed on this board, they either move you away from being like Christ or do nothing at all.

[music4two]

I have a simple question for those who support the Trinity.
You believe that Jesus is God or a dual natured being. (100% God and 100% man)

The nature of a being is the characteristics of it’s existence. For a man this would include his body soul and spirit. This is part and parcel of his single human nature.

If you believe that Jesus is the pattern son and our example for mankind, my question is this —

I want to be like Christ. How do I become dual-natured or a God in order to fullfill God’s commandment?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2006,02:35)

Quote The majority of mankind is caught up into doctrines of demons and Babylon. t8 So you say that those with a trinitarian view follow doctrines of demons and Babylon?

Hi W,
They do not follow teachings from the mouth of God so where do you think those doctrines come from?

[Cult Buster]

music4two

Quote

I have a simple question for those who support the Trinity. You believe that Jesus is God or a dual natured being. (100% God and 100% man) The nature of a being is the characteristics of it’s existence. For a man this would include his body soul and spirit. This is part and parcel of his single human nature. If you believe that Jesus is the pattern son and our example for mankind, my question is this — I want to be like Christ. How do I become dual-natured or a God in order to fullfill God’s commandment?

No one has asked you to be God. Through the power of God try to be like Jesus in His incarnation.

There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God.

When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.

Consider the following.

Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what  man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.

Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had,  weakened by the curse of sin.

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.

Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

[music4two]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 19 2006,04:13)

music4two Quote I have a simple question for those who support the Trinity. You believe that Jesus is God or a dual natured being. (100% God and 100% man) The nature of a being is the characteristics of it’s existence. For a man this would include his body soul and spirit. This is part and parcel of his single human nature. If you believe that Jesus is the pattern son and our example for mankind, my question is this — I want to be like Christ. How do I become dual-natured or a God in order to fullfill God’s commandment? No one has asked you to be God. Through the power of God try to be like Jesus in His incarnation. There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God. Consider the following. Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what  man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed. Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had,  weakened by the curse of sin. Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example. Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Everytime I read one of your posts, I am astounded at the poor technique used to interpret scripture. For instance one of the primary safeties used in interpretation of scripture is to use scriptural terms to describe a teaching. You fail this often in the use of the term “incarnation”. It is not used in scripture as you relate it.
“No one has asked you to be God. Through the power of God try to be like Jesus in His incarnation.”

The second failing in your approach is to make statements that contradict very clear scriptures.

When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God.

Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie,Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it?Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

I Sam 15:29
29″Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.

Heb 13:8
 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Mal 3:6
 6″For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

All the stuff you have said about “LORD” Elohyim depicts all the trinity which includes Jesus. But to support your doctrine God can suddenly change.

He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what  man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.

Here again you contradict yourself. In your first paragraph you say He never stopped being God and now you say that He did not act as a God. Which is He?

As I have posted many times, If Jesus remained God while on this Earth, then He cannot be an example for the rest of us. Either Jesus stopped being God or was never one to begin with. That is the only way he can be a proper and real example for us.

On more then one occasion I have ask you to show how your doctrine functions to make us more like Christ. You have understandibly ignored those posts. Obviously your teaching does not work in the real world. It is a philosophy that has nothing in common with real functional teaching. If Jesus is anything but fully human he cannot be our example.

[music4two]

CB
Some details for you.

Any examination of the historical beginnings of Arianism is immediately hampered by a lack of first-hand Arian literature. After the teachings of Arius were rejected by the Christian Church at the council of Nicea in 325, Arius was condemned as a heretic, and “people who owned his writings were ordered to deliver them up on pain of punishment.”[3] Although some extant copies of Arius' own writings and other early Arian sources do exist, they are nonetheless painfully sparse. Therefore, in order to make a thorough examination of early Arianism — indeed, any examination at all — one must attempt to find in the works of later Arian writers, and the works of one of Arius' great opponents, Athanasius of Alexandria, some core of early Arian doctrine.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2961/earian1.htm

Reconstructing the life and teachings of Arius can be problematic and controversial. None of Arius' writings are extant; many were destroyed by his opponents. Indeed, our only record of his teaching is found in writings of those who opposed him and denounced him as a heretic – sources which are obviously far from dispassionate. Yet these, as the only surviving references to him, are all the scholars have. These few remaining works credited to him are Epiphanius' recordings of his letter to Alexander of Alexandria, Theodoret's recording of his letter to Eusebius of Nicomedia, and Athanasius' recording of fragments of Thalia, a popularized work combining prose and verse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius

The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be “one substance” with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'.

Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html

Even though he (Constatine) had begun his reign with an edict of religious toleration, he now forbade the heretics (mostly Arians) to assemble in any public or private place, including private homes, and ordered that they be deprived of “every gathering point for [their] superstitious meetings,” including “all the houses of prayer.” These were to be given to the orthodox Church.

The heretical teachers were forced to flee, and many of their students were coerced back into the orthodox fold. The emperor also ordered a search for their books, which were to be confiscated and destroyed. Hiding the works of Arius carried a severe penalty – the death sentence.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen08.html

[david]

Quote

For instance one of the primary safeties used in interpretation of scripture is to use scriptural terms to describe a teaching.

Hi Music4two. I couldn't agree more on this point. If we are teaching or discussing the things in the Bible, it makes sense to use the terms the Bible uses. It frustrates me greatly when you have to have 8 years of college education to discuss the Bible, something God intended for all to understand.

And in addition to what you were saying to Buster, I'd like to add that the Bible says that Jesus “became flesh.” I have always understood this to mean he “became” human. In other words, fully human. He didn't merely take on a human body as some angels had done. He “became” flesh.
Buster says: “He did not cease to be God.” The scriptures say he “became flesh.” I don't know how to reconcile the two without abandoning the trinity.

david

[david]

Quote

Posted: Dec. 16 2006,22:25 QUOTE Quote Again can God stop being God. My point exactly. Yet, Jesus emptied himself and “became flesh.” He didn't become part human. He became flesh, human. As you ask: Can God stop being God? Quote Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God [or “He” ACCORDING TO BIBLES that aren't the KJ] was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. As far as I can tell, this is the only Bible that inserts the word “God” where other Bibles have “He.” We know that the KJ version has a spurious verse or two inserted for no other reason than to strengthen the trinity doctrine. Because of this fact, it's a poor translation to use when arguing trinity, because the belief is that it is extremely biased. And in the case of this scripture, that would seem to be the case as well. david Well david who is he. If it was God the Father then you are saying that God the Father was recieved up into Glory! ————–

Hi Guy who worships Jesus,
You try to show that 1 tim 3:16 is speaking of Jesus and that it says “God.” But other Bibles don't do this. I think they all say “He was manifest in the flesh….”
So in answer to your question: The Bibles of the world seem to indicate that as you believe and know, this scripture is referring to Jesus. Where you and the Bibles of the world differ, is that you and the KJ believe that the word “God” should be inserted in there.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi Guy who worships Jesus, You try to show that 1 tim 3:16 is speaking of Jesus and that it says “God.”  But other Bibles don't do this.  I think they all say “He was manifest in the flesh….” So in answer to your question: The Bibles of the world seem to indicate that as you believe and know, this scripture is referring to Jesus.  Where you and the Bibles of the world differ, is that you and the KJ believe that the word “God” should be inserted in there.

David if he is the Father then the Father was justified in the Spirit and recieved up into Glory.

Why do you try to change the Sciprtures?

Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

*God, the Son, was manifest in the flesh

*God, the Son, was justified in the Spirit

*God, the Son, was seen of Angels

*God, the Son, preached unto the Gentiles

*God, the Son, was believed on in the world

*God, the Son, received up into glory.

Why do you deny these things?

Now lets look at it your way!  

*God, the Father, was manifest in the flesh

*God, the Father, was justified in the Spirit

*God, the Father, was seen of Angels

*God, the Father, preached unto the Gentiles

*God, the Father, was believed on in the world

*God, the Father, received up into glory.

Abide in the Word as a son must do.
Abhor Babylon and her idols.  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi Music4two.  I couldn't agree more on this point.  If we are teaching or discussing the things in the Bible, it makes sense to use the terms the Bible uses.  It frustrates me greatly when you have to have 8 years of college education to discuss the Bible, something God intended for all to understand. And in addition to what you were saying to Buster, I'd like to add that the Bible says that Jesus “became flesh.”  I have always understood this to mean he “became” human.  In other words, fully human.  He didn't merely take on a human body as some angels had done.  He “became” flesh. Buster says: “He did not cease to be God.”  The scriptures say he “became flesh.”  I don't know how to reconcile the two without abandoning the trinity.

David

So the Word Was God and is God….
Rev 19:13
And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

The Word stoped being God and became a man?

[music4two]

david – some more info for you —–

When the Hebrews spoke of the flesh, they were speaking of the natural, physical, material realm in which we live. The Hebrews did not see the flesh as evil but as part of he kingdom of God even as the spiritual realm. They saw no separation into good or bad concerning the spiritual realm and the physical natural realm. When they spoke of something coming in the flesh, they were speaking of it being of the same nature as the rest of the natural realm.  It’s nature being one of the natural, physical, material, earthly realm. It was later that the world of Dualism redefined “flesh”.

Paul often speaks of the flesh. In Philippians 1 verses 19 through 28, we see Paul again using the term “flesh” refering to his life/death in the material/physical realm. this was not an admonition concerning good or bad behaviour, but a simple statement concerning his presence in the “flesh” compared to his presence with Christ after death.

19  for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

 20  according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

 21  For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

 22  But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

 23  But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

 24  yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

 25  Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,

 26  so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.  

Both Paul and John speak very strongly about Christ coming according to the flesh and being in the flesh.

Gnosticism and dualism would deny Jesus coming in the natural flesh because of their philosophy that the natural, physical realm is evil. They qualify his nature to avoid the conclusion that Jesus could be of the lower evil realm. They teach a mystical, spiritual Jesus wrapped in a shell of flesh or 100% God and 100% man unlike the rest of humanity. In the case of Jesus coming according to the flesh, this truth clearly speaks of Jesus being of the same nature and makeup as the rest of humanity.

There are, of course, some differences between Jesus and the rest of humanity, but none effect his nature or makeup
1. He is the “only begotten son of God” Begotten meaning born.(like the rest of humanity)
2. He is direct heir to the thrown of God.
3. He lived a perfect sinless life.
4. He is the messiah, the Christ.
5. He holds a position in heaven, being the heir, the Christ, and first one to complete God’s plan, that no other human will ever hold.
6. He is the only pattern for the rest of mankind to follow.

Here are just a few of the scriptures that clearly show Jesus is a complete human.

Romans 1/3
 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, (here we see his linage as being human., on his mother’s side from the line of David, and according to the flesh, his nature being in keeping with the rest of natural man.)

Romans 9 Verse 3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, ( Paul explains that his brethren are his kinsmen because they come according to the flesh as he does. (flesh= coming in the natural physical realm. His nature and makeup was human. The building blocks that came together at his conception were human)

4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5
 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (Here Jesus is described as coming from the fathers according to the flesh. In other words of the same makeup and nature that Paul clarified earlier.)

Hebrews 2
9 
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10
 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
11
 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12
 saying,
         “I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
         IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.”
13
 And again,
         “I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM “
         And again,
         “BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME.”
14
 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15
 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16
 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17
 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Notice the very specific things said in this section of scripture —
Verse 9 – Jesus called son of man. Jesus made lower then the angels. (this does not say he was lowered from a higher position, but that his make up was that of being lower then the angels) Crowned with glory and honor because of his suffering and tasted death.  A God does not need to be crowned with glory. A God cannot suffer and die. All of these apply to humanity not a God. Scripture states very clearly that it was the man’s death on the cross and not a God’s.
Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. (Notice scripture makes a point to show Jesus as a man)
Verse 10 – He was perfected by what he suffered. Jesus was born sinless and immature like all other men and like all other men needed to be perfected through suffering. His work brings MANY sons to glory – US -!
Luke 2:52 “And Jesus grew both in wisdom and in stature, gaining favor both with other people and with God.”  (Obviously he was not born a perfected God/man.)
Verse 11 –  They come from the same Father and for this reason Jesus calls them (humanity) brethren. (All humanity are sons of one God including Jesus.)
Verse 12 and 13 – Jesus again calls us his brethren
Verse 14 – Jesus shares the same attributes of flesh and blood. Jesus fulfills prophecy of Eve’s seed.  Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
Verse 15 He is fulfilling his calling of being an example. His death is an example because he is completely human.
Verse 16 – Again pointing to his linage as a descendent of Abraham. His ancestors were human. A God does not need heed help from another person of God, but a human, decended from Abraham does need it.
Verse 17 – Made like his brethren in ALL THINGS. Not in everything except his nature, but all things! Everything about Jesus was like his brethr
en. No qualifications or added concepts. Since it is clear that Jesus is in the line of David through Mary, Her DNA must have been present. Jesus calls her mother indicating that She was the source, of the egg, 1/2 of his makeup.
We know that God is His father, therefore in order to not break this previous verse that he was like his brethren in EVERY WAY God must have created a human sperm to fertilize Mary’s egg.

But isn’t Jesus called Lord?
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”

( in most translations there are two distinct ways in which Lord is translated. LORD (all capitols) in the OT is Yahweh the personal name of God. Lord with only the ” L” capitalised in the NT comes from the Greek word kurios. It means master or one in authority. It is not a name for God. Notice that God made him Lord or master over all the earth. This is not a title he has because he is a God, but one awarded him by Yahweh.)

Prophecy foretold of Jesus being like his brethren –
Deut 18/15 (Moses is speaking of Jesus )
The LORD (Yahweh) your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
Verse 18  – 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Verse 19 It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
(Jesus is a prophet, a human calling. This clearly explains how he could speak first person from the Father) (John 8/40, Acts 7/37, Mat 13/57)

Jesus is the first to fulfill God’s plan for man —

Jesus was the example for humanity having the fullness of God dwelling in them and becoming like Christ to the full extant.
Christ —
Colossians 1:19
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Colossians 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
The rest of humanity —
Ephesians 3:19
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (How do we measure up to the full stature of Christ? By becoming mature men. This comparison is invalid unless Christ is a man.)

Jesus is called Emanuael which means God is with us. Truthfully God is with us in the person of the Human Jesus Christ. He is the perfect revealing of the Father in a Human. He is one with his Father who is a spirit. He is Spirit filled to the fullest extant. Even today, men who have good and deep relationship with God reveal God to those around them by their actions and life. From their very being comes a revelation of the goodness of the God that dwells in them. To what ever extant they reveal God to that same extant do we have God with us in their presence.
Jesus is called the “Everlasting Father” because the Father (Yahweh) is revealed in him. Even as Moses bowed before the burning bush and called it God. The bush was not God but Moses recognised a physical revealing of Yahweh in the natural realm residing within the bush. So thomas could look at Jesus and call Him Lord (master in authority) and God (Yahweh indwelling and being revealed in the man Jesus)

Jesus is again compared to Adam
Gen 3-

 4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!

 5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Adam and Eve seeing the fruit was good to eat, set out to meet their own needs. They had freedom to choose and chose to be as God’s deciding for themselves what was right and wrong for them. They chose to make themselves equal with God! They partook of the knowledge of good and evil.

Now we see, in comparison,  Jesus and how he acted ——————–

Philippines 2

 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,

 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

 3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;

 4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

The preceding verses are not about the Godhead, but rather about becoming like Christ.
——– Jesus was in the form of God. Created in the image and likeness of God like all other men. He was a complete man in his makeup. Yet Jesus never partook of the knowledge of Good and Evil, therefore had the ability to have the fullness of God dwelling in him. Paul is specific in his use of the word “form”. If he had wanted to say Jesus was a God he could have simply said Jesus was a God! He acted in complete agreement with His Father’s characteristics and therefore had a form of God. When Jesus appeared, he appeared as a man. This was not what the Jews expected. They expected a great sign and wonder and got instead a man in appearance and make up.

Jesus knew who he was. He knew he was the heir to the thrown of God and a son of God with full authority of the Father given to Him. Even with this knowledge and power, Jesus did not seek equality with God and did not use his freedom or power to meet his own needs. Satan tempted him in this very area. “Make the stones into bread”. Most of us would have opened a bakery, yet Jesus refused to use his authority to meet his own needs. Instead he poured out his needs and desires even unto death for the benefit of his brethren and the glory of God. He even said (based on his authority) he could call down 10 legions of angels, but refused to use his power, authority or rights in opposition to the will of God. For this reason was he exalted. He was not exalted into his own glory but to the glory of the Father. Though he had all authority in heaven and earth and exercised a form of God he did not use it for his own needs or even to save himself. (First Adam compared to last Adam- Man compared to Man)
John 5/19 …. Truly, truly I say to you.  the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son does in like manner…..
John 5/30….  I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me…….. He never claimed to have his own power in heaven and earth.  He said it was given to Him.
Matthew 11/27… My Father has handed over everything to me….  This means the power Jesus exhibited was not his, but the Father’s.

1 Corinthi
ans 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Again Christ resurrection is an example and a first fruit because of his humanity. The first to complete God’s plan for man.

Jesus rebukes the Jewish teachers for not being like Him. It must be understood that when Jesus talked to the leaders he only need quote a small portion of the Old Testament and they would immediately understand it’s context in whole. This was a common tactic amongst Rabbi’s in debating with others. Jesus further traps the Pharasees in their own words and uses their own proclimation that the word cannot be broken. Here Jesus quotes Psalm 82 in part, but the implication of the context is clear to the Jews.

In this portion of scripture Jesus Himself shows that God expects us all to be Gods in the way we deal with our brothers. We are all to be in the form of God in our lives and actions.

John 10

 23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30I and my Father are one.

 31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Notice Jesus is very specific as to who the deity is that dwells in him)

 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
 

Psalm 82
1God takes His stand in His own congregation;
         He judges in the midst of the rulers.
    2How long will you judge unjustly
         And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
    3Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
         Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
    4Rescue the weak and needy;
         Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
    5They do not know nor do they understand;
         They walk about in darkness;
         All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
    6I said, “You are gods,
         And all of you are sons of the Most High.
    7″Nevertheless you will die like men
         And fall like any one of the princes.”
    8Arise, O God, judge the earth!
         For it is You who possesses all the nations.

— Remember that the Hebrews wrote and taught in concrete alegorical ways. In Psalm 82- Yahweh calls them sons (humanity) of the Most High God. In John 10 Jesus quotes this verse. Again rebuking the pharasees because they are not Gods in their fulfilling of His character toward their fellow men. Jesus compares their character and their actions to those of God that are revealed in Himself. He shows that in his character and actions toward his brethren he and his Father are one! The fact that Jesus states He and His Father are one is not proof of a triune God or else He could not pray as he does in John Chapter 17. Notice very clearly that Jesus prays that we are to be one with Yahweh and Himself in the same manner as He and Yahweh are one.
 1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
( His purpose to glorify the Father not himself)

 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
(Authority over all flesh? Humanity! His power was not his own but was given him by the father)

 3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(Jesus Christ who came at the fathers will not his own.)

 4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
(Jesus glorified the Father and accomplished the Father’s will. His own will was in submission to His Father.)

 5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(Jesus had glory set aside for him from the beginning of time. Just as the plan of God was with God from the beginning, so were the rewards of the fulfillment. — notice it does not say Jesus was with him from the beginning, but that the glory for Jesus was with God.)

 6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
(Jesus again gives the credit to the Father for the men he has ministered to.)

 7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
(Again Jesus does not claim to have possesedthe knowledge, but gave credit to the Father)

 8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that they came forth from You, and they believed thatYou sent Me.
(Credit to the Father)

 9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
(His followers belong to the Father not him. Jesus also shows his relationship as a son of God in that all the Father posseses is his.)

 11″I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
(Jesus prays that we have the same relationship with the Holy Father as he did. In order for this to happen, we must be of the same nature as Jesus!)

 12″While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

 13″But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.

 14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(Jesus gives the Father’s word, not his own)

 15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

 16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(Jesus again compares himself to his followers)

 17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

 18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
(Jesus says even as He himself was sent so we are sent. This clearly denies the statements
that Jesus was literaly sent from Heaven. Otherwise the same must be said of His followers. In fact the word “Apostle” means “sent one”. Jesus’ life was orchestrated and directed by God. His work and His being sent to the house of Israel was from God in heaven. In like manner we as Christians in our work that is led by God are sent from heaven.)

 19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

 20″I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
(All these prayers and statements apply to everyone)

 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(Jesus specifies his oneness with God and states that it is the Father that dwells in him, not the second person of a triune godhead)

 22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
(How many times does he need say it. We are to have the same relationship with Yahweh. Jesus says the Glory the Father gave to Him, He  gives to us!)

 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
( Jesus says the Father is in him)

 24″Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus prays for us to be in the same place as he is.  Jesus again specifies that the Glory He has comes from the Father. It is not His own. Yahweh also lives out of our linear time frame so could easily love Christ befor his actual birth on earth or it is possible that Christ did live in heaven before his birth. Perhaps we all do! This is not evidence that He is a God.

 25″O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;

 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Jesus had to be human for many reasons —

1.Jesus had to be a man to be the second Adam. He fullfilled that which Adam failed to accompolish. He again achieved dominion over the earthly realm.

2.Jesus had to be a man, born into the human family, so that he could be the human heir of the throne of David.

3.Jesus had to be a man so that he could be “touched by a feeling of our infirmities — yet without sin.”  Jesus is a “sympathetic high priest” He understands our problems and is therefore able to help those in need.

4.Jesus had to be a man so that he could be the “son of Man” —  In the New American Standard Bible, Jesus is called “Son of Man” 97 times.

5.Jesus had to be a man so that he could establish the pattern for the rest of humanity. Jesus was the first human being to fullfill God’s plan.”  By acknowledging Jesus’ full humanity, we show proff that human nature is indeed “very good” as God put it after creating the first man.   

6. Jesus had to be a man to prove that perfected humanity is possible. He is the perfect example of what accompolishments are possible for all humanity.

I believe the word is our safety and can be relied on to be a surer word of prophecy. When faced with the desire to describe and understand the nature of God, I believe it is a safety to use scriptural terms to describe God.
The truth is very clear in scripture and needs no outside terms or qualifications to understand it. There is nothing ambigous or mystical about it. Nothing that must be accepted by faith without clear scripture. In fact the truth can be clearly explained using only scripture with no outside wordage at all.

Deut 4:6
 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) is our God, the LORD is one! (In most translations LORD all in capitols signifies the personal name of God, Yahweh)

John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (In the NASB Jesus is refered to as the Son of Man over 97 times. Most times by Jesus himself.)

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus, (MAN = Anthropos (Gr) can only mean human. Not an augmented humanity with a dual nature but simply human)

Heb 2/17
Therefore, He had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 4/15  
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

John 14/9 and 10
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IS IN ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the FATHER ABIDING IN ME does His works.

Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Acts 2/36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord (Kurios Gr.) and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
For He (Yahweh) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
(Lord, capitol “L” , small ”ord”, In the Greek, Kurios = Master or one in authority, much like the use in feudal Lord of a castle. Not a name for God. Additionally Christ means anointed one. God needs no anointing but a man does.)

John 12:44 thru 46
 44Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45WHEN HE LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES THE ONE WHO SENT ME. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
“I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.” (Co-equal persons of God?)

John 14:28 –
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 3:23
– “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:3 –
“Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:17
– “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
(Co-equal?)

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

There is one thrown in heaven. On that thrown sits the human Jesus Christ. When we see him we will see the glory of the Father revealed in the face of Jesus.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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CB Some details for you. Any examination of the historical beginnings of Arianism is immediately hampered by a lack of first-hand Arian literature. After the teachings of Arius were rejected by the Christian Church at the council of Nicea in 325, Arius was condemned as a heretic, and “people who owned his writings were ordered to deliver them up on pain of punishment.”[3] Although some extant copies of Arius' own writings and other early Arian sources do exist, they are nonetheless painfully sparse. Therefore, in order to make a thorough examination of early Arianism — indeed, any examination at all — one must attempt to find in the works of later Arian writers, and the works of one of Arius' great opponents, Athanasius of Alexandria, some core of early Arian doctrine. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2961/earian1.htm Reconstructing the life and teachings of Arius can be problematic and controversial. None of Arius' writings are extant; many were destroyed by his opponents. Indeed, our only record of his teaching is found in writings of those who opposed him and denounced him as a heretic – sources which are obviously far from dispassionate. Yet these, as the only surviving references to him, are all the scholars have. These few remaining works credited to him are Epiphanius' recordings of his letter to Alexander of Alexandria, Theodoret's recording of his letter to Eusebius of Nicomedia, and Athanasius' recording of fragments of Thalia, a popularized work combining prose and verse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be “one substance” with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'. Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty. http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html Even though he (Constatine) had begun his reign with an edict of religious toleration, he now forbade the heretics (mostly Arians) to assemble in any public or private place, including private homes, and ordered that they be deprived of “every gathering point for [their] superstitious meetings,” including “all the houses of prayer.” These were to be given to the orthodox Church. The heretical teachers were forced to flee, and many of their students were coerced back into the orthodox fold. The emperor also ordered a search for their books, which were to be confiscated and destroyed. Hiding the works of Arius carried a severe penalty – the death sentence. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen08.html

M42

So what does this have to do with the scriptures that we have today.

What does that have to do with those who are not Catholic and who accept the Jesus of the scriptures today.

There is a reason why Arians documents were destroyed.

Could be that the same God that preserved the scriptures that he wanted us to have today is the same God that allowed those documents to be destroyed.

If they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, would not God have preserved them?

So the argument that  Arian had some truth that was destroyed by trinitarians and therefore we dont have the whole truth is weak to say the least.

We have what God wanted us to have. Believe it or reject it. Which I find many here rejecting much of the scriptures to fit their Arian roots.

Rev 22:
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

II Peter 3
2
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

II Tim 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[music4two]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2006,00:48)

So what does this have to do with the scriptures that we have today. What does that have to do with those who are not Catholic and who accept the Jesus of the scriptures today. There is a reason why Arians documents were destroyed. Could be that the same God that preserved the scriptures that he wanted us to have today is the same God that allowed those documents to be destroyed. If they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, would not God have preserved them? So the argument that  Arian had some truth that was destroyed by trinitarians and therefore we dont have the whole truth is weak to say the least. We have what God wanted us to have. Believe it or reject it. Which I find many here rejecting much of the scriptures to fit their Arian roots.

First we are not speaking of scripture, but of writings from the early church. Your comparison is completely invalid. I never said they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. I was merely responding to being accused of being a Arian. No one knows what that really is. All we know is what his accusers say it is.

Secondly, you are saying that man cannot make a mistake in destroying good documents? Man does not have free will in this matter? I cannot say they were good or not, but to use the old dodge of it must have been God's will is a sham. The same reasonings the inquisitors of the dark ages used. From the burning of books to the murder of thousands, all claiming it was God’s will.
God could have intervened in any number of historical events, but in most cases lets man make their own choices. Sometimes He does and sometimes He does not intervene. Do you think you have the key as to when He does or doesn’t?

God could have stopped Hitler in 1939. Do you think WWII was God's will?
How about the deaths of 8 million Jews. God's will?
How about the hatefull Rap music that glorifies cop killing, rape and drug use. God's will?
How about abortion? God's will?

Get a clue. You have no more idea if the destruction of Arius’ writings was God’s will then I do. All we know for sure is they were destroyed and therefore we cannot say what they contained. This was my point all along.
Just because you might agree with his accusers does not mean they were right. Nor can our judgements of his beliefs be valid without his testimony.

As bad as Cult Buster, you accuse others of Arian roots and don’t even know what Arius believed. All you know is what his accusers believed.

You know nothing about me or anyone else on this board and yet feel you have authority to lump us in with what you assume is evil. How dare you! I say assume because that is all you can do in the case of Arius. You have no real proof of Arius’ beliefs, only his accusers testimony. Because his writings are destroyed he cannot testify on his own behalf. Of course that makes little difference to some. All they need is an accusation that lines up with what they assume is his fault and they are ready to burn at the stake. How very dark ages!

Even in the court of heaven, God himself listens to Satan’s accusations and observes Satan’s proofs before making judgement. Should we do less when it comes to Arius? I will not accept judgement of Arius without full testimony.

Since I feel you are starting from an invalid perspective, I will not even bother to deal with your scriptures.

[david]

Quote

Posted: Dec. 20 2006,00:24 QUOTE Quote Hi Guy who worships Jesus, You try to show that 1 tim 3:16 is speaking of Jesus and that it says “God.” But other Bibles don't do this. I think they all say “He was manifest in the flesh….” So in answer to your question: The Bibles of the world seem to indicate that as you believe and know, this scripture is referring to Jesus. Where you and the Bibles of the world differ, is that you and the KJ believe that the word “God” should be inserted in there. David if he is the Father then the Father was justified in the Spirit and recieved up into Glory. Why do you try to change the Sciprtures? Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. *God, the Son, was manifest in the flesh *God, the Son, was justified in the Spirit *God, the Son, was seen of Angels *God, the Son, preached unto the Gentiles *God, the Son, was believed on in the world *God, the Son, received up into glory. Why do you deny these things? Now lets look at it your way! *God, the Father, was manifest in the flesh *God, the Father, was justified in the Spirit *God, the Father, was seen of Angels *God, the Father, preached unto the Gentiles *God, the Father, was believed on in the world *God, the Father, received up into glory. Abide in the Word as a son must do. Abhor Babylon and her idols.

I believe Babylon worshipped trinities of gods. Actually, I know they did. Babylon's influence is great. It trickled down to other pagans and here we are today, with an apostasized for of babylonism.

“The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato’s] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

Why do I try to change scripture?
I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that the Bible you choose to use has an anomaly, a difference, when compared to most other Bibles.

I'll check the gateway Bibles for example, one by one. Here we go:

New International Version–He
New American Standard Bible–He
The Message–He
Amplified Bible–He (with footnote that says: some manuscripts read “God”)
New Living Translation–He
English Standard Version–He
Contempary English Version–He (with footnote: “The Greek text has “he,” probably meaning “Christ.” Some manuscripts have “God.””)
New King James–God(But the footnote says: “NU-Text reads Who.”)
King James–God
21st Century King James God
American Standard Version–He
Youngs Literal translation–God
Darby Translation–God
New Life Version–Christ
Holman Christian Standard Bible–He (with footnote: “Other mss read God”)
New International Readers Version–Jesus
Wycliffe New Testament–It?
Worldwide English–God
New International Version (UK) –He
Todays New International Version–He
And, since we have the version you use most, let's add the one I use most:
New World Translation–He

*****
SORRY I MESSED UP THE BOLD HERE. MAKES IT CONFUSING
*****
So, I could just as easily ask you why you change scripture?
I don't remember changing scripture, only showing that the Bible you use is in the minority in translating it that way. Take out all the King James versions and there is only one or two that have “God” there. And even the footnote in the New King James says that “NU text reads “who””, as in, not “God.”

So check this out. I now ask you, “why do you try to change scripture?”

And now, I'm going to post one of the many bibles that support me:

1 TIMOTHY 3:16
“Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’”

Quote

*God, the Son, was manifest in the flesh *God, the Son, was justified in the Spirit *God, the Son, was seen of Angels *God, the Son, preached unto the Gentiles *God, the Son, was believed on in the world *God, the Son, received up into glory. Why do you deny these things? Now lets look at it your way! *God, the Father, was manifest in the flesh *God, the Father, was justified in the Spirit *God, the Father, was seen of Angels *God, the Father, preached unto the Gentiles *God, the Father, was believed on in the world *God, the Father, received up into glory. Abide in the Word as a son must do. Abhor Babylon and her idols.

You ask: Why do you deny these things?
I don't remember ever seeing the expression “God, the Son” used in scripture.
The expression “Son of God” occurs about 40 times or so. So why use something that never occurs in scripture?

You say: “Now lets look at it your way! “
But i don't believe that scripture is speaking of the Father. I am only saying that you are trying to use your version of the Bible to justify that Jesus is called “God” in this scripture. Then I say: Most Bible's don't have God here. Then you say: Why are you trying to change scripture?

I'm not trying to change scripture. I'm trying to get you to stop using unscriptural expressions, such as “God the son.” Try this: The son of God. It's actually found in the Bible several times with reference to Jesus. So, it's an appropriate expression. “God the son” is something people hear over and over again in churches to condition people into believing something that isn't there.

david

[seekingtruth]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 11 2006,23:30)

Another one for you T8 Luk 4:2  (Jesus)  Being forty days tempted of the devil. Luk 4:12  And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Who was being tempted here? Jesus;    The Lord thy God! Zec 7:11  But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

Quote

Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I've always believed that satan was not being told by tempting Jesus, he was tempting God, but that if Jesus was to do something like what was being suggested He would be testing God (many translations use testing not tempting).

You don't do things for show (to prove God) to do so is testing God and in Deuteronomy 16 “Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah.” we are told not to.

Wm

[seekingtruth]

Sorry my post on the previous page is way behind, for some reason when I went to this thread it stopped at page 471 and I thought I was in the current section?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

First we are not speaking of scripture, but of writings from the early church. Your comparison is completely invalid. I never said they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. I was merely responding to being accused of being a Arian. No one knows what that really is. All we know is what his accusers say it is. Secondly, you are saying that man cannot make a mistake in destroying good documents? Man does not have free will in this matter? I cannot say they were good or not, but to use the old dodge of it must have been God's will is a sham. The same reasonings the inquisitors of the dark ages used. From the burning of books to the murder of thousands, all claiming it was God’s will. God could have intervened in any number of historical events, but in most cases lets man make their own choices. Sometimes He does and sometimes He does not intervene. Do you think you have the key as to when He does or doesn’t? God could have stopped Hitler in 1939. Do you think WWII was God's will? How about the deaths of 8 million Jews. God's will? How about the hatefull Rap music that glorifies cop killing, rape and drug use. God's will? How about abortion? God's will? Get a clue. You have no more idea if the destruction of Arius’ writings was  God’s will then I do. All we know for sure is they were destroyed and therefore we cannot say what they contained. This was my point all along. Just because you might agree with his accusers does not mean they were right. Nor can our judgements of his beliefs  be valid without his testimony. As bad as Cult Buster, you accuse others of Arian roots and don’t even know what Arius believed. All you know is what his accusers believed. You know nothing about me or anyone else on this board and yet feel you have authority to lump us in with what you assume is evil. How dare you! I say assume because that is all you can do in the case of Arius. You have no real proof of Arius’ beliefs, only his accusers testimony. Because his writings are destroyed he cannot testify on his own behalf. Of course that makes little difference to some. All they need is an accusation that lines up with what they assume is his fault and they are ready to burn at the stake. How very dark ages! Even in the court of heaven, God himself listens to Satan’s accusations and observes Satan’s proofs before making judgement. Should we do less when it comes to Arius? I will not accept judgement of Arius without full testimony. Since I feel you are starting from an invalid perspective, I will not even bother to deal with your scriptures.

M42

We are not talking about mens wars here. We are talking about the preservation of the scriptures. And if you dont know what Arian believed, here it is in a nut shell.

Arianism is a Christological view originally held by followers of Arius, a Christian priest who lived and taught in Alexandria, Egypt, in the early 4th century. Arius taught that God the Father and the Son were not co-eternal, seeing the pre-incarnate Jesus as a divine being but nonetheless created by (and consequently inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a “creature”; in this context, the word is being used in its original sense of “created being”.

Arianism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It seems to me that fits your teaching. Whether or not if its true about Arian or not, it still seems to be the theme of the JWs and dirivitaves of the Arian view.

BTW you label us Trinitarians, and we dont get all huffy.

I dont care what you label me. I am a born again Spirit filled, bible beliveing, Son of God. And I honor and serve the Father , Son and Holy Ghost.  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

believe Babylon worshipped trinities of gods.  Actually, I know they did.  Babylon's influence is great.  It trickled down to other pagans and here we are today, with an apostasized for of babylonism.   “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato’s] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467. Why do I try to change scripture? I'm not.  I'm merely pointing out that the Bible you choose to use has an anomaly, a difference, when compared to most other Bibles. I'll check the gateway Bibles for example, one by one.  Here we go: New International Version–He New American Standard Bible–He The Message–He Amplified Bible–He (with footnote that says: some manuscripts read “God”) New Living Translation–He English Standard Version–He Contempary English Version–He (with footnote: “The Greek text has “he,” probably meaning “Christ.” Some manuscripts have “God.””) New King James–God(But the footnote says: “NU-Text reads Who.”) King James–God 21st Century King James God American Standard Version–He Youngs Literal translation–God Darby Translation–God New Life Version–Christ Holman Christian Standard Bible–He (with footnote: “Other mss read God”) New International Readers Version–Jesus Wycliffe New Testament–It? Worldwide English–God New International Version (UK) –He Todays New International Version–He And, since we have the version you use most, let's add the one I use most: New World Translation–He ***** SORRY I MESSED UP THE BOLD HERE.  MAKES IT CONFUSING ***** So, I could just as easily ask you why you change scripture? I don't remember changing scripture, only showing that the Bible you use is in the minority in translating it that way.  Take out all the King James versions and there is only one or two that have “God” there.  And even the footnote in the New King James says that “NU text reads “who””, as in, not “God.” So check this out.  I now ask you, “why do you try to change scripture?” And now, I'm going to post one of the many bibles that support me: 1 TIMOTHY 3:16 “Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’”You ask: Why do you deny these things? I don't remember ever seeing the expression “God, the Son” used in scripture. The expression “Son of God” occurs about 40 times or so.  So why use something that never occurs in scripture? You say: “Now lets look at it your way!  “ But i don't believe that scripture is speaking of the Father.  I am only saying that you are trying to use your version of the Bible to justify that Jesus is called “God” in this scripture.  Then I say: Most Bible's don't have God here.  Then you say: Why are you trying to change scripture?   I'm not trying to change scripture.  I'm trying to get you to stop using unscriptural expressions, such as “God the son.”  Try this:  The son of God.  It's actually found in the Bible several times with reference to Jesus.  So, it's an appropriate expression.  “God the son” is something people hear over and over again in churches to condition people into believing something that isn't there.

David

I thought you were an open minded good hearted person, but now I begin to doubt your motives.

Ok if you insist here goes.

You say…

Quote

I believe Babylon worshipped trinities of gods.  Actually, I know they did.  Babylon's influence is great.  It trickled down to other pagans and here we are today, with an apostasized for of babylonism.   “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato’s] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

Here we are with the Trinitarian label again, definitely not surprising coming from a JW.

So I will admit, I believe the scriptures teach the Godhead, Father ,Son and Holy Ghost, these three are one.

But the scriptures for sure don’t teach an Arian view or any dirivative of it.

And David you talk with a lot of steam here about Plato and trinity origins.
Are you sure you want to get into origins and the history of certain sects and cults and religions?
You don’t want me to get into the JWs foundation and beliefs, and the lies found in the Watch Tower.
I have been down that road with you guys many a times.

You say…

Quote

Why do I try to change scripture? I'm not.  I'm merely pointing out that the Bible you choose to use has an anomaly, a difference, when compared to most other Bibles. I'll check the gateway Bibles for example, one by one.  Here we go:

I will give it to you that not all of the modern translators used the word God.

And if this is the only scripture that says Jesus is God, then I would agree with you.

But let me point out to you…

The word God in I Tim 3:16 is theos, which means
a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

The same word is used in the  AV – God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + 4214 2, misc 5; 1343

Examples where this word is used

Matt 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matt 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Acts 19:8
And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

II Cor 11:31
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Again 1320 times the word “theos” is found in scriptures like this in the New Testament..

But we have to compare scripture with scripture.

So lets take a scripture where none of the translations disagree, well except maybe one.

John 1:1

KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NKJV
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NLT
In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.

NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ESV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

RSV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ASV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

YLT
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

Darbys
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Websters
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

HNV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NWT
“Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’”   HMMM?

Is this enough scriptural proof that Jesus/God was manifest in the flesh?

Of course this is the big one that the Apostle John should have left out, right?

Darn it dosnt fit my Arian view. So I think I will just write another Bible or Just forget it dosnt exist.
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I will ask you also David. Who is that living in you?

Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

And he shall send who David? Hows he gonna do that?  

Blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
If what you say is true
“Is this enough scriptural proof that Jesus/God was manifest in the flesh?”

Was God a man?
Why was God taught and disciplined by his human parents?
What happened to God at the Jordan?

[seekingtruth]

Quote

I dont care what you label me. I am a born again Spirit filled, bible beliveing, Son of God. And I honor and serve the Father , Son and Holy Ghost.

WorshippingJesus,
I'm sure you do, I also believed just as you for over 20 years, I know I was saved and God was working in my life. But a few years ago God gave me a revelation that although it could be a product of my imagination it seems to be supported by the whole of scripture. I always hesitate to tell it as I get it from both sides but since I believe it to be true I'm bound to tell it and it is the function of the body to correct or accept by rightly dividing truth (however I mostly get opinions).

God is far greater then our reality (the physical universe), He is greater then the spiritual reality (which I believe we do not even begin to understand). When the Father made our “reality” He was manifested (not created) anew in this physical reality as the Son (begotten, the firstborn of all creation). The Son was 100% God (when you've seen the Son you've seen the Father, at least all that can be comprehended), but God (the Father) couldn't even begin to be contained in the Son. From that point on the Son did all things for the Father.

I believe when it says “God” in scriptures that it is a “title” which refers to the Father/Son and depending on what it is in reference to, will decide if it is one, or the other, or both. If it has to do with attributes it is referring to both, if it has to do positions, decisions, authority, etc. it is the Father as Jesus would never do anything except what the Father wanted done, if it referred to tasks, visits, etc. it is referring to the Son as the Father seems to have done everything through His Son.

I believe this fits with the verses which indicate there is only one God, the Father and there is none like him (there is however a Father/Son “Godhead”, after all it is scripture that tells us that me and my wife are one flesh, and that They are one), while other verses are also quite clear that Jesus is independent of the Father (He had His own will not always the same as the Father) and not His equal (but the Fathers will, not His). The Son is worthy of worship and having proved Himself, the Father has now turned all power and authority (in all of this creation) over to Him.

As I indicated at the beginning I could be way off in left field (it was what I first thought) but it does seem to fit scripture and bring harmony to what was conflict.

As to the Holy Spirit I do not believe “He” is a person as we would think of a person but also I read from scripture that there is more to “Him” then just the active will of God. Being obviously spiritual in nature I believe we lack the ability to truly comprehend what “He” is. this is just my opinion.

May God grant us wisdom.  

Wm

[Author]

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