The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Unfair,
I show you that men have devised fabrications to try and encompass our God which insult Him, amalgamating Him with his own Son and dividing off His own Spirit to make a third person in this bizarre and hideous manmade creation, and yet you accuse me of some form of elitism?

It is for your own safety I advise you not to be so bold with God but rather fear Him and accept His teaching about Himself.

Jas 5
” 19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”
Jude
” 20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. “

[sscott]

Hi Isa,

No worries.

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Okay…thanks for clearing that up. The reason I asked is that your posts of late seemed (to me) to demonstrate a bias towards watchtower thought. And then you when you questioned me on the context of the Isaiah passages it strongly reminded me of a Greg Stafford rebuttle in a christological debate I saw recently..

I could see how you thought that. The reality is no matter where the thought comes from it certainly needs to be address.

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By the way, I do recognise that the context of the Isa passages is about YHWH contrasting Himself with the “gods” of the various nations that surrounded Israel, not false gods in general. But the same principle holds in both a narrow and broad context. There is, after all, only one divine being, right?

I'm not so sure one means one being. Maybe but I'm undecided. I know that God in the old test is Elohim…which is plural for mighty ones. I also know the bible says me and my wife are one flesh but we are not one being. Jesus say He and the Father are one but then Jesus says in John 17 that we believers are to be one as Jesus and the Father are one. I know that doesn't mean that I am one being with other believers.

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A couple of things I would say about this. Firstly, I wouldn't judge a doctrine as invalid because a few uninformed adherents can't defend it. And secondly, to say that YHWH, a Universe-creating SUPREME being is in some sense mysterious is hardly a surprising statement. And anyone who claims to exhaustively understand YHWH is clearly lying or deluded, or both. We don't even really understand ourselves sscott. Do you know anyone who can explain in detail how the human soul and spirit interface. Or even WHAT our spirit is precisely? We barely comprehend the physical part of our being, let alone the metaphysical parts. And how much more complex a being is the Creator?….

I agree.

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Yes, you could build a case for any concievable doctrine by selective proof texting. It's my position that the trinity doctrine best accounts for ALL Biblical data relevant to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I'm undecided. Right now I could not fully endorse either position, however there are more scriptures I cannot fit into the Trinity that the other explination. I am fully open to whatever the truth is…that's why my questions one day seem like I'm defending one position and the next day defending the other position. Though I'm not defending either…just exploring the options and seeking the truth.

~sscott

[sscott]

HI WorshipingJesus,

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By the way is the abreviation of your name here: earching-cripture-[C]onfirmation-[O]n-[T]he-[T]rinity?

No…It's my first initial and my last name. However, that is what I'm doing.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Unfair, I show you that men have devised fabrications to try and encompass our God which insult Him, amalgamating Him with his own Son and dividing off His own Spirit to make a third person in this bizarre and hideous manmade creation, and yet you accuse me of some form of elitism? It is for your own safety I advise you not to be so bold with God but rather fear Him and accept His teaching about Himself. Jas 5 ” 19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” Jude ” 20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. ”

NH

Sorry you are offended like this and then call our belief hideous and attack our faith in him as if we dont know who the Father and the Son and and the Holy Spirit is.

You say  “Hi w,
Unfair,
I show you that men have devised fabrications to try and encompass our God which insult Him, amalgamating Him with his own Son and dividing off His own Spirit to make a third person in this bizarre and hideous manmade creation, and yet you accuse me of some form of elitism?

You say that you show us men have devised fabrications to try and encompass our God, which insult him…

What men? I have formed my own opinion based on The Spirit and the Scriptures. My trust is not in some writings of the fathers. Sure we may learn from them, but we have a more sure word of prophesy.

Because I find in my search for the truth that the trinity best describes God in the scriptures you are offended.

Ask yourself Nick, have I ever in this forum denied the Father, The Son or The Holy Spirit?

I suppose because my interpretation of them is different from yours you would burn me at the stake.

What are we doing NH more than you.

You say there are 2 Gods in the God head and [A] Holy Spirit that is a force or power and Not God himself, or you say its the finger of God as if the Spirit was a little force running around performing works for God. When the Spirit of God is indwelling every believer and in fact filling the universe with Gods presence.

Before you go off on the deep end about this statement the finger of God Jesus is talking about in casting out devils is “quantitative”. In fact that same scripture is spoken of in another place and Jesus says if I by the **Spirit of God** cast out devils…..

Scriptures teach plainly that to cast out devils would take but a small portion of Gods Spirit and power meaning satan is nothing compared to God or even the Sons of God who are full of his Spirit!

But you take this One Scripture where the Finger of God is mentioned by Jesus and want to form a new doctrine about the Spirit of God and **almagate** the Spirit into a finger.  There are many appellations for the Holy Spirit, Comforter, teacher, Water of Life, Just to mention a few.

The Holy Spirit is a Person, Jesus referred to him as he. He that indwells us crying Abba Father.

Sorry that doesn’t fit into your doctrine, but it is true.

So because I say that The Father and the Son and the Hoy Spirit is One God
you go apes.

I simply follow God when he says that we are to worship ONE GOD and serve ONE GOD, And Bow down to ONE GOD and to call ONE GOD Lord and Master.

Not 2 a greater God and a lesser God.

Again this is the way you see God fine, but don’t insist that everyone bow down to God the way you see him and if not they are somehow blind and lost.

If this is the way you feel then yes that is elitism.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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HI WorshipingJesus, Quote   By the way is the abreviation of your name here: earching-cripture-[C]onfirmation-[O]n-[T]he-[T]rinity?   No…It's my first initial and my last name.  However, that is what I'm doing.

LOL Thats Great Sscott!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“Before you go off on the deep end about this statement the finger of God Jesus is talking about in casting out devils is “quantitative”. In fact that same scripture is spoken of in another place and Jesus says if I by the **Spirit of God** cast out devils…..

Scriptures teach plainly that to cast out devils would take but a small portion of Gods Spirit and power meaning satan is nothing compared to God or even the Sons of God who are full of his Spirit!

But you take this One Scripture where the Finger of God is mentioned by Jesus and want to form a new doctrine about the Spirit of God and **almagate** the Spirit into a finger. There are many appellations for the Holy Spirit, Comforter, teacher, Water of Life, Just to mention a few.”

Lets look at the verse.

Lk 11
” 15But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

16And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

17But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

18If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

19And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. “
and compare the parallel verse in Matt 12
” 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.”

It is plain that the finger of God refers to the Spirit of God is it not?

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, You say “Before you go off on the deep end about this statement the finger of God Jesus is talking about in casting out devils is “quantitative”. In fact that same scripture is spoken of in another place and Jesus says if I by the **Spirit of God** cast out devils….. Scriptures teach plainly that to cast out devils would take but a small portion of Gods Spirit and power meaning satan is nothing compared to God or even the Sons of God who are full of his Spirit! But you take this One Scripture where the Finger of God is mentioned by Jesus and want to form a new doctrine about the Spirit of God and **almagate** the Spirit into a finger.  There are many appellations for the Holy Spirit, Comforter, teacher, Water of Life, Just to mention a few.” Lets look at the verse. Lk 11 ” 15But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. 16And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. 17But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. 18If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. 19And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. 20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. “ and compare the parallel verse in Matt 12 ” 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” It is plain that the finger of God refers to the Spirit of God is it not?

NH

Read it again!

I said..
“Before you go off on the deep end about this statement the finger of God Jesus is talking about in casting out devils is “quantitative”. In fact that same scripture is spoken of in another place and Jesus says if I by the **Spirit of God** cast out devils…..

Scriptures teach plainly that to cast out devils would take but a small portion of Gods Spirit and power meaning satan is nothing compared to God or even the Sons of God who are full of his Spirit!

But you take this One Scripture where the Finger of God is mentioned by Jesus and want to form a new doctrine about the Spirit of God and **almagate** the Spirit into a finger.  There are many appellations for the Holy Spirit, Comforter, teacher, Water of Life, Just to mention a few.

And there are different measures of his anointing for a certain task so the finger of God is “quantitative” an expression of the measure of Gods Spirit in casting out devils. You cannot just simply say the finger of God is his Spirit and thats all he is a finger.

Of course the Spirit is an it to you!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Scripture does not say Jesus was filled with only a small portion of the Spirit but the fullness of deity was dwelling in him. Jesus did not just use a 'small portion of the Spirit' in each battle with satan's hordes. That is nonsense. The Spirit is not divided in Christ, then, or now or forever.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, Scripture does not say Jesus was filled with only a small portion of the Spirit but the fullness of deity was dwelling in him. Jesus did not just use a 'small portion of the Spirit' in each battle with satan's hordes. That is nonsense. The Spirit is not divided in Christ, then, or now or forever.

NH

Do you think it took the same power of the Holy Spirit to cast out devils as raising Lazurus from the dead?

Did did it take the same power to create the heavens?

Your missing my point NH.:(

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 24 2006,06:29)

Hi W, Scripture does not say Jesus was filled with only a small portion of the Spirit but the fullness of deity was dwelling in him. Jesus did not just use a 'small portion of the Spirit' in each battle with satan's hordes. That is nonsense. The Spirit is not divided in Christ, then, or now or forever.

Hey NH,
Yes- but theotes does not refer to the Spirit of God (the Greek word theos is used to designate this). Theotes (deity) means “the state of being God”. Col 2:9 is telling us that the fullness of the divine essence has permanently settled in Jesus' body….

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 24 2006,06:55)

Quote Hi W, Scripture does not say Jesus was filled with only a small portion of the Spirit but the fullness of deity was dwelling in him. Jesus did not just use a 'small portion of the Spirit' in each battle with satan's hordes. That is nonsense. The Spirit is not divided in Christ, then, or now or forever. NH Do you think it took the same power of the Holy Spirit to cast out devils as raising Lazurus from the dead? Did did it take the same power to create the heavens? Your missing my point NH.:(

Hi w,
Show us where Jesus used varying amounts of God's power in his ministry.
Everything is easy for God to achieve among men so long as men will believe.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, Scripture does not say Jesus was filled with only a small portion of the Spirit but the fullness of deity was dwelling in him. Jesus did not just use a 'small portion of the Spirit' in each battle with satan's hordes. That is nonsense. The Spirit is not divided in Christ, then, or now or forever.

NH

Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 4:38 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also [is called] Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Eph 5:18  And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

34] For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
[35] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

We are vessels of his Spirit and our vessels can be filled with his Spirit. We can have the Spirit and be filled with the Spirit. Jesus was given the Spirit without measure.

Jesus breathed on them and they received the Spirit, But later in Acts 2 they were filled with the Spirit. Jesus had told them to wait for the promise and that they would receive power after they were filled by the Spirit.

Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1: 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

You will find examples of the Power of God manifested in direct relation to the measure of the Spirit in the vessel being used. We have not yet seen the fullness of the Spirit and his power in his body yet.

[Cubes]

From your post on November 20, 2006 addressed to me:  

WorshippingJesus,Nov. wrote:

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Show me where this is unscriptural.

Hi WJ,

I don't know how, but it seems this post of yours escaped my attention.  I just saw it this morning when looking to respond to “Is's”  last to me.  So my apologies for that.

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 21 2006,12:00)

Quote (Cubes @ Nov. 20 2006,15:42) Hi Is: There is one orginal and foremost builder and creator, who is the God and Father of our Lord.  But as you realize, Jesus is also called a builder in Hebrews, and yet, the context  surbordinates him to God the Father, who is the ultimate builder of the temple which Jesus (together w/ us) is (Eph 2:20f, 1 Peter 2:4f, ). Job 38:1   Then YHWH answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, …. Job 38:4   Where wast thou when I LAID THE FOUNDATIONS of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.   Job 38:5   WHO HATH LAID the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or WHO HATH stretched the line upon it?   Job 38:6   Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the CORNER STONE thereof; Since the creation, even men continue to invent incredible things to this day, within God's creation using his resources, so it should not surprise us that Jesus under the authority of God, should be endowed and commissioned with far greater creativity within God's ORIGINAL framework of creation. In other words, when Jesus designs something, the ingenuity, matter (supplies) and model (designs) would have to be out of something God has already provided him, therefore the Father is the source of all things as per the scriptures.   This, is not said of Christ.   Put another way, Jesus is the heir OF ALL THINGS.  In other words, he has nothing that was not first given to him and that would include any creative powers. The Father on the other hand is heir to no one, and is the provider to us all.   I realize that the verses below do not speak of creation but they do reveal the Son's relationship with his Father, and are essentially giving us details, telling us that this is the way things are, even thru to Revelation when we are told that The Lord God Almighty Created all things and by his will sustains them (Rev 4).   Finally, in such light, the texts you cited, rather strongly affirm what I am saying.  Please consider your texts in light of the fact that Jesus is truly the image of our invisible God, and is the firstborn of creation through/by whom all things were made. Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I DO NOTHING OF MYSELF; BUT AS MY FATHER HATH TAUGHT ME, I speak these things. Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you FROM MY Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? Jhn 10:37  If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Jhn 5:30 I CAN OF MINE OWN SELF DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Every blessing! Hi again Cubes, thanks for replying. I think you missed my point though. Isaiah 44:24, as I read it, is an unequivical and exclusivist statement – strongly affirming that no one other than YHWH “stretcheth forth the heavens” and “spreadeth abroad the earth”: “I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself“ YHWH did it alone, what else could “alone” or “by myself” possibly mean? If Isaiah 44:24 declares, in the the most emphatic and unambiguous language available, that no one other than YHWH created “all things”, on what grounds can you postulate that a lesser being, who was not YHWH, was involved in any capacity?? Wouldn't that, in essence, be a direct challenge to YHWH's claim? It gets worse…. Hebrews 1:10 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands Psalm 102:25 was written in exclusive reference to the Most High God, YHWH, and the writer of Hebrews unequivocally applied it to Jesus. According to the writer it was the Father Himself who personally addresses His Son as the actual executor of the Creation event! How can we reconcile Isaiah 44:24 and Hebrews 1:10 within the framework of monarchial monotheism? I don't think you can….. Blessings Cubes

Hi Is,

The first thing I would say regarding Ps 102:22f and Heb 1:10 is that I don't understand them as clearly as I would like at this time, but it would seem that the Father speaks of his son, in much the same way as when he says, “therefore God, thy God has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows…”

If this is right, and we have correctly understood the scriptures as speaking about Jesus, then again, it confirms that Jesus has a God and creates within the frame work and with the resources provided by God, consistent with the point already established.

The creation after all is saved THRU Christ.  God gives him credit for his part but it is more true that it is the Father who saves us.   Jesus rose from the dead but it is more true that the Father raised him from the dead.

All sorts of people toil night and day to heal or save others, but it is more true that God sustains his creation.  As long as such examples exist, Christ as creator must be seen within the existing framework and examples, taking all that is known of him into account (even as in the cases of the rest of creation).

We must rely on precedence in these things:  We can't do without the pattern of examples shown us in scripture and the creation.

1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have NO SUCH CUSTOM, neither the churches of God.

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 22 2006,21:57)

Polytheist say that there are two Gods. The greater one is called Father, the lessor one the Son is called Lord and master and those two Gods have a Holy Spirit that is an amazing force or power Of those two definitions I choose the first. ………. We should with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbear one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. This is just my opinion!

Hi WJ,

1. I am not a polytheist but I thought to respond to #1. Firstly, we are not polytheist. Secondly, we do not claim to have two Gods as you say… but we acknowledge that there are many Gods, but for us, there is ONLY ONE GOD, namely, The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Period. 1 Cor 8:6.

2. I agree and AMEN.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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I don't know how, but it seems this post of yours escaped my attention.  I just saw it this morning when looking to respond to “Is's”  last to me.  So my apologies for that. •  you are right in that Col 1:15 doesn't say that Jesus is the “Firstborn Image of the invisible God,” but rather that he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.  However, your refutation does not hold because I did not alter the meaning of the verse. Letting scripture interpret Scripture: Fact:  Jesus is the image of his Father, the Invisible God. Fact:  Jesus is the firstborn (of God, obviously) of every creature and subsequently of many brethren.  [He is the firstborn of God in this context since Mary is not referred to as our own mother and we are by and large not the children of David.  But God is “Our Father.”] 1a.  Image of the invisible God + firstborn of every creature and subsequently of many brethren = firstborn image of the invisible God.  Precept upon precept. 1b.  or the Invisible God's firstborn image. Other Possble interpretations: We cannot well say of Christ that he is: 2a.  the image of the Invisible God's firstborn.  (That would be speaking about us). 2b.  Or the Invisible God's Image firstborn, (that's ambiguous and could mean Christ or us) 3.  Or Firstborn Invisible God's Image… that would be awkward, and the meaning most certainly ambiguous if not outrightly wrong… possibly suggesting that the Invisible God could be someone's firstborn.  But then that is the outrageous Trinity claim). So for the purposes of constructing Jesus's profile by adding precept upon precept and line upon line, the equation turned out to be as I said:  he is (both) FIRSTBORN & IMAGE of the Invisible God. aka FIRSTBORN IMAGE of …. Thus I used it not as a quotation, or to take or add anything to scripture, but simply as a consolidation of scriptural facts which was not intended to alter the scriptures intent. So hope you concede this point. ——- Secondly: Firstborns or beginnings are not the creators and origins of THEMSELVES:  they tend to ensue from others.  That is the simplest and most basic form of understanding.  Actually, the biblical examples given follow that understanding:  ADAM, CAIN, SHEM, ESAU, REUBEN… all ensued from someone. Were this not so, evolutionists would be right after all, in contending that the universe came into existence of itself without any one causing it to be {GOD}. (Interestingly, and for what it's worth, I am just noticing that, with the exception of Shem, the rest of the above share a similar pattern of the first Adam, in that each is a major branch in human/religious history and is succeeded by a pattern of the “second” Adam). As for the rest, most definitely, Jesus has the preeminence in everything, being the prince of glory and son of the King of glory.  Still, let's keep it straight and not think to instult him through unwarranted flattery, by making him out to be who he is not.  He said, “I SAID, 'I AM THE SON OF GOD.'”  Nothing more. Warm Regards. Hi Cubes

Hi Cubes

I could comment or respond too many of the individual statements that you made.

However I think I will keep it simple and just go to the root of your thesis.

The scriptures say:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

As you know the Word God is elohiym which is plural for Gods or the true God.

The Apostle John who leaned on the bosom of Jesus indicating a deep relationship with the Lord under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit spoke of Jesus as follows:

I Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the **Word of life**;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

John who was familiar with the writings of Moses and the the pluaral application of the word elohiym understood that their was something absolutely divine and marvelous about this Jesus that he walked with for approximately 3 years.
He touched him, and he looked upon him , he heard him speak, and seen his eyes. Jesus who was the Word made Flesh. This Jesus also revealed himself to John on the Isle of Patmos in his resurrected Glory and also Spoke to him saying,
Rev 1: 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Something that none of us who talk about him on this forum can make such a claim.

So we know his words are true.

He speaks of him as not only the Word, but as the Word of Life.

But in Vs. 2  He shows us something more spectacular about this Word of Life,

Vs. 2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that **eternal life**, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us…

Skeptics of the Trinitarian view, some anyway, would
turn their eyes and ears to this marvelous revelation of the Son of God and try to forget.

The Word  was not only the life that was with the Father but is in fact the **eternal
Life**.

John goes on to give us an understanding of who this Eternal Life was, who was this Word of Life?

I Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

YLT reads it 5:18 We have known that every one who has been begotten of God does not sin, but he who was begotten of God does keep himself, and the evil one does not touch him; 5:19 we have known that of God we are, and the whole world in the evil does lie; 5:20 and we have known that the Son of God is come, and has given us a mind, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ; this one is the true God and the life age-during!
Anyone who closely examines these scriptures and is honest with himself can plainly see that Jesus is the True God one with the Father, the Eternal Life.

The word John uses for eternal is aionios, which means
1) Without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) Without beginning
3) Without end, never to cease, everlasting

The Word had no beginning! Out of Jesus the eternal Word came everything into existence.

Jesus said the Words that I Speak unto you they are **Spirit** and they are **Life**.

Then John goes on to say in Jn 1:1. in words so similar to Genesis 1:1.

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

There is that eternal Life that was with the Father! I Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the **Word of life**;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Now t
his Life, this Word that was with God and is God(the Word was God), That life that had no beginning and no end that eternal life is the express Image of God.
Col. 1
15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

The fact that the evidence here shows that Jesus, the Word that Eternal life, should be enough to throw out all of the watch towers interpretations of Jesus as the Firstborn or the Begotten as meaning that he had a beginning or was created will probably not be enough for those who would close there eyes to the truth being revealed.

Cubes your interpretation of  Col 1:15 is out of context.

First of all the the word for firstborn is  prototokos which could also mean first created. Now since we know the context here is Jesus being the Firstborn of the creation not of the Father then we have to ask is Jesus a created being?

The problem is that the context clearly shows that “first created” was not Paul's intended meaning in Colossians.
Paul uses the same basic word for “all things” in vv.16-17 as he used in his expression “every creature” (all creation) in v.15. Syntactically then, Paul says Jesus existed before (v. 17), created (v.16) and sustains (v.17) that set of things of which he is the “first born” (v.15), i.e., the set of “all creation.” This agrees with John, who says, “In the beginning was the Word (literal Greek “…was existing the Word.” John's use of the imperfect tense shows continuous duration of existence in the past)…. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made” (John 1:1,3).
If Paul was saying that Jesus was created or born then why would he go on to say vs 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Now we know he didn’t create himself. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM AND FOR HIM. Hes not a part of the all things.

So what do we have? Creator and created.

YLT  reads Col 1:15-20 like this…
:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all thing s through him, and for him, have been created, 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. 1:18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly — who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] — himself — first, 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle, 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself

Conclusion:
. Since the scriptures here are evidence that Jesus is the one by whom God created ***all things***, then pure logic says that God could not have created Jesus out of or through Jesus. Foolishness!

Nor is he a part of the creation. Creator and Created.

Good bye watch tower!
He is and was the Eternal Life that was with the Father!

For anyone who apposes the Trinitarian view this creates a real problem.

God = Father, Son and Holy Spirit, these three eternally existed and these three are  ONE!

Blessings

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ Nov. 25 2006,00:43)

Hi WJ, 1.  I am not a polytheist but I thought to respond to #1.  Firstly, we are not polytheist.  Secondly, we do not claim to have two Gods as you say… but we acknowledge that there are many Gods, but for us, there is ONLY ONE GOD, namely, The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Period.  1 Cor 8:6. 2.  I agree and AMEN.

Hi again Cubes, hope you are having a good thanks giving weekend so far…I'm afraid I have to take issue with your statement regarding polytheism. Here is how it is classically defined:

polytheism
/pollithee-iz’m/
– noun
the belief in or worship of more than one god.

(Compact Oxford English dictionary)

————————————————————————————-

polytheism
Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm, pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm]
noun

the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.

(Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1))

————————————————————————————–

polytheism
(pl-th-zm, pl-thz-m)  Pronunciation Key    
n.

The worship of or belief in more than one god.

(American Heritage Dictionary)

More dictionaries….

A polytheist believes in the existence of more than one god. That IS what a polytheist believes. Now you might not like that definition Cubes – but it is the correct one nonetheless.

Paul was a strict monotheist, and was not teaching the existence of multiple divinities in 1 Cor 8, but rather contrasting monotheistic christian dogma with the false notion of “many lords and gods” that was ubiquitously endemic in pagan Corinth. That is why he identifies them as “so called” gods in 1 Cor 5.

1 Corinthians 8:5
“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,”

And why he wrote this in Galatians:

Galatians 4:8-9
8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Compare 1 Cor 8:1-5 with a passage two chapters later in 1 Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 8:1-5
1Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 4Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

Cf.

1 Corinthians 10:19-20
19What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.

The “Lords and gods” in 1 Cor 8:6 are the same “idols” described in the earlier verses of the chapter. The power behind these idols is identified as “demons” in 1 Cor 10:20. The “lords and gods”  are demons Cubes. So appealing to 1 Cor 8:6 to substantiate the existence of many “gods” (of which Yahshua is one) is unscriptural and, no doubt, highly offensive to the Lord. Yahshua is definately not one of these, in fact if you read I Cor 8:5-6 carefully you'll see He is differentiated from them. He is uncreated, and there is One uncreated being in all of existence, YHWH.

Or am I incorrect when I assert that YHWH is the only uncreated being in existence? And there is One divine being?

Blessings Cubes
Is 1:18

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ Nov. 24 2006,20:49)

Hi Is, The first thing I would say regarding Ps 102:22f and Heb 1:10 is that I don't understand them as clearly as I would like at this time, but it would seem that the Father speaks of his son, in much the same way as when he says, “therefore God, thy God has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows…” If this is right, and we have correctly understood the scriptures as speaking about Jesus, then again, it confirms that Jesus has a God and creates within the frame work and with the resources provided by God, consistent with the point already established. The creation after all is saved THRU Christ.  God gives him credit for his part but it is more true that it is the Father who saves us.   Jesus rose from the dead but it is more true that the Father raised him from the dead. All sorts of people toil night and day to heal or save others, but it is more true that God sustains his creation.  As long as such examples exist, Christ as creator must be seen within the existing framework and examples, taking all that is known of him into account (even as in the cases of the rest of creation). We must rely on precedence in these things:  We can't do without the pattern of examples shown us in scripture and the creation. 1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have NO SUCH CUSTOM, neither the churches of God.

Okay. Thanks for replying Cubes, and for being honest about your depth of knowledge of the two verses. But I have to say that, after reading your post, my conviction articulated below has been strengthened:

Quote

How can we reconcile Isaiah 44:24 and Hebrews 1:10 within the framework of monarchial monotheism? I don't think you can…..

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 25 2006,07:48)

Quote How can we reconcile Isaiah 44:24 and Hebrews 1:10 within the framework of monarchial monotheism? I don't think you can…..

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 21 2006,08:56)

Quote Psalm 102:25 was written in exclusive reference to the Most High God, YHWH, and the writer of Hebrews unequivocally applied it to Jesus. According to the writer it was the Father Himself who personally addresses His Son as the actual executor of the Creation event! Do you have any comments to make on how can we can reconcile Isaiah 44:24 and Hebrews 1:10 within the framework of monarchial monotheism?

Greetings Is 1:18
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrew's quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).

The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)

The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!

Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews)

In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever.

The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!

Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5)  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.

For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1

Oh BTW Is 1:18,
As you rightly pointed out,

Quote

Isaiah 44:24, as I read it, is an unequivical and exclusivist statement – strongly affirming that no one other than YHWH “stretcheth forth the heavens” and “spreadeth abroad the earth”

Yes. YHWH alone created all things. No one was co-creating with Him! YHWH created all things alone!

Thus, John 1.3 is simply speaking about GOD's [spoken] word i.e.
(Psa 33:6)  By the word of YAHWEH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
(Psa 33:9)  For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

John 1:3 as nothing to do with the Messiah or any other being! It is simply talking about GOD's word by which GOD created all things.

(Incidentally the majority of English Bibles before the 1611 KJV, translated John 1:1-4 using it instead of him, beginning with Tyndale's translation e.g. “3 All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made. 4 In it was life; …”

This translation brought out the true sense of John 1:1-4; since these verses are speaking about GOD's word, not Jesus nor anybody else! It is simply about GOD's word which wasn't made flesh until v.14 i.e. the conception of Jesus of Nazareth!)

1 Cor 8.6 & Heb 1.2 speaks of GOD creating all things through (Greek dia not 'by') Jesus His Son.
That is, GOD created the ages and all things with His Son in mind. GOD's Son is the reason for the Creation. Jesus, the Son of GOD, the Son of the Father [2 John 3] is not himself the creator nor a co-creator in the Genesis creation. However the Creator, GOD Himself, had foreordained that His Son would be made, Lord of all His Creation. GOD thus created all things with this in mind.
Even Jesus attributed the Genesis Creation to GOD alone [Mark 10.6, 13.19]

Now Col 1.16 like Heb 1.10 is speaking of the new heavens and earth, the Coming Kingdom of GOD, hence,
(Col 1:16)  … visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [not 'by', THROUGH, Gk. dia] him, and for him:
The context is about the thrones, dominions, principalities, & powers to come in the Coming Kingdom of GOD [Heb 2.5]

Hope this helps to answer your questions!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Greetings Is 1:18 The short answer is that the writer of Hebrew's quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint). The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT). Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21) The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff! In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth. In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom! Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come! Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context: (Heb 2:5)  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come, of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation. For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1 Oh BTW Is 1:18, As you rightly pointed out, Quote   Isaiah 44:24, as I read it, is an unequivical and exclusivist statement – strongly affirming that no one other than YHWH “stretcheth forth the heavens” and “spreadeth abroad the earth” Yes. YHWH alone created all things. No one was co-creating with Him! YHWH created all things alone! Thus, John 1.3 is simply speaking about GOD's [spoken] word i.e. (Psa 33:6)  By the word of YAHWEH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. (Psa 33:9)  For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. John 1:3 as nothing to do with the Messiah or any other being! It is simply talking about GOD's word by which GOD created all things. (Incidentally the majority of English Bibles before the 1611 KJV, translated John 1:1-4 using it instead of him, beginning with Tyndale's translation e.g. “3 All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made. 4 In it was life; …” This translation brought out the true sense of John 1:1-4; since these verses are speaking about GOD's word, not Jesus nor anybody else! It is simply about GOD's word which wasn't made flesh until v.14 i.e. the conception of Jesus of Nazareth!) 1 Cor 8.6 & Heb 1.2 speaks of GOD creating all things through (Greek dia not 'by') Jesus His Son. That is, GOD created the ages and all things with His Son in mind. GOD's Son is the reason for the Creation. Jesus, the Son of GOD, the Son of the Father [2 John 3] is not himself the creator nor a co-creator in the Genesis creation. However the Creator, GOD Himself, had foreordained that His Son would be made, Lord of all His Creation. GOD thus created all things with this in mind. Even Jesus attributed the Genesis Creation to GOD alone [Mark 10.6, 13.19] Now Col 1.16 like Heb 1.10 is speaking of the new heavens and earth, the Coming Kingdom of GOD, hence, (Col 1:16)  … visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by [not 'by', THROUGH, Gk. dia] him, and for him: The context is about the thrones, dominions, principalities, & powers to come in the Coming Kingdom of GOD [Heb 2.5] Hope this helps to answer your questions!

To much to respond to!

Complete and total heresy, Adam Pastor!

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