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Quote Hi W,
Trinitarians have gone outside of scripture to avoid the charge of polytheism. Going outside of scripture is anathema and means that there is no God given foundation for truth as a basis for their doctrine and they are in rebellion against God in so doing.Polytheists do not just know of several gods but they worship several gods. Scripture does not say there are two gods. It says that, by God's appelation, “there are many gods, BUT FOR US THERE IS ONE GOD.”
We worship one God, the Father. Ironically it is trintarians that tell us to worship two.
Eph 3
“14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.”
Nick
You say “Polytheists do not just know of several gods but they worship several gods. Scripture does not say there are two gods. It says that, by God's appelation, “there are many gods, BUT FOR US THERE IS ONE GOD.”
Technically you are right. But in practice you say you worship the Father, but you bow the knee and serve the Son calling him Lord and Master.
And if he being a lessor God(a term not found in scripture), Is not One God with the Father and the Spirit, then to call him Lord and Master and serve him would be against the first commandment!
Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve!
This is false teaching to say that there are 2 Gods and a Holy Spirit that these 2 Gods are one with.
We believe in 3 in one! You beleve in 3, One who you worship and one who you serve calling him Lord and master and one who you follow and pray in a Spirit calling it Gods Spirit or Christ Spirit.
This isnt scriptural!The debate goes on!
Hi W,
You get caught up in side issues that confuse you.God calls the Son, angels, Satan and even men gods but that does not mean we should become worshipers of them does it?
The God of the Jews is the God of all. Nothing has changed about God since Jesus arrived to tell us about Him and show us His nature and powers. By doing these things he was not trying to bring men to worship him but showing how to be brought back into relationship with our Creator.
Jn 8.54
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”Quote Hi W,
You get caught up in side issues that confuse you.God calls the Son, angels, Satan and even men gods but that does not mean we should become worshipers of them does it?
The God of the Jews is the God of all. Nothing has changed about God since Jesus arrived to tell us about Him and show us His nature and powers. By doing these things he was not trying to bring men to worship him but showing how to be brought back into relationship with our Creator.
Jn 8.54
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”NH
No Im not caught up in a side issue!
This is serious. The Father has nowhere shown us that we are to serve a lessor God or call him Lord and master! Now you have to either say that Jesus is not [a] God but just a man Gods son or you have to admit that the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit is One God! Or all of the scriptures combined make no sence.But you have said that you chose. And that is your right. But to call everyone else anti-Christ because they dont hold your view is wrong and evil!
Hi W,
Did Jesus not speak of those who call him Lord but he does not know them?
Is he not our Master and Lord, under the Lord God?Scripture says for us there is one Lord Jesus Christ, and one God, the Father.[1Cor 8]
No confusion there.Does the branch serving the vine not serve the Gardener?
Jesus said The Father was His God, and the God of the Jews but you would disagree?polytheism
/pollithee-iz’m/
– noun
the belief in or worship of more than one god.(Compact Oxford English dictionary)
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polytheism
Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm, pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm]
nounthe doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.
(Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1))
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polytheism
(pl-th-zm, pl-thz-m) Pronunciation Key
n.The worship of or belief in more than one god.
(American Heritage Dictionary)
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polytheism
n:belief in multiple Gods
[ant: monotheism]————————————————————————————–
polytheism
One entry found for polytheism.Main Entry: poly·the·ism
Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(“)thE-“i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god:belief in or worship of more than one god
Merriam-(Websters online dictionary)
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Noun 1. polytheism – belief in multiple Gods
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pol·y·the·ism Listen: [ pl-th-zm, pl-thz-m ]
n.The worship of or belief in more than one god.
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polytheism
noun
Definition:belief in many different gods
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polytheism
pol·y·the·ism
noun
Definition:
belief in several deities: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deities—————————————————————————————–
Polytheism
Polytheism is belief in, or worship of multiple gods or deities.
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A polytheist believes in the existence of more than one god.
Hi Is 1.18,
Scripture speaks of many gods
Genesis 35:2
So Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, “Put away the foreign gods which are among you, and purify yourselves and change your garments;
Exodus 12:12
'For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments– I am the LORD
Exodus 20:23
' You shall not make other gods besides Me; gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not make for yourselves.
Daniel 11:36
“Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ' I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
“If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
1 Corinthians 8:5
For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,Do you believe in them?
Or do you just know about them?1 Corinthians 8:5
“For even if there are so-called gods…”Why do you think Paul designates them “so called” gods?
“…whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,”
Indeed there are – to pagans…..
Galatians 4:8-9
8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?There is the Creator (the ONE true God), and all else is creation…simple really.
Its a matter of perspective. Man has the propensity to be decieved into believing there are many gods, as hinduism, paganism, and henotheism (to name a few) will testify. But from YHWH's perspective there is no god beside Him, and no one even like Him…
Isaiah 44:6,8
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isaiah 45:21
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like MeThere is only one true God, YHWH – He is in a metaphysical class all on His own. There cannot be a primary and a secondary God (as henotheists teach), scripture couldn’t be clearer on this. There is one God and everything else is creation. All other “gods” are in fact false gods and not really gods at all….
Refer: Deu 32:21, 1 Sa 21:21; Ps 96:5; Isa 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cr 8:4; 10:19-20; Gal 4:8-9
Blessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 23 2006,04:16) Its a matter of perspective. Man has the propensity to be decieved into believing there are many gods, as hinduism, paganism, and henotheism (to name a few) will testify. But from YHWH's perspective there is no god beside Him, and no one even like Him… Isaiah 44:6,8
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isaiah 45:21
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like MeThere is only one true God, YHWH – He is in a metaphysical class all on His own. There cannot be a primary and a secondary God (as henotheists teach), scripture couldn’t be clearer on this. There is one God and everything else is creation. All other “gods” are in fact false gods and not really gods at all….
Refer: Deu 32:21, 1 Sa 21:21; Ps 96:5; Isa 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cr 8:4; 10:19-20; Gal 4:8-9
Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
Yet men are bending over backwards here to tell us not only to worship God but also the Son of God.
Why?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 23 2006,04:16) Its a matter of perspective. Man has the propensity to be decieved into believing there are many gods, as hinduism, paganism, and henotheism (to name a few) will testify. But from YHWH's perspective there is no god beside Him, and no one even like Him… Isaiah 44:6,8
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isaiah 45:21
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like MeThere is only one true God, YHWH – He is in a metaphysical class all on His own. There cannot be a primary and a secondary God (as henotheists teach), scripture couldn’t be clearer on this. There is one God and everything else is creation. All other “gods” are in fact false gods and not really gods at all….
Refer: Deu 32:21, 1 Sa 21:21; Ps 96:5; Isa 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cr 8:4; 10:19-20; Gal 4:8-9
Blessings
Hi Isa,What are the chapters about that those verses are from?
Quote Posted: Nov. 23 2006,04:16
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Its a matter of perspective. Man has the propensity to be decieved into believing there are many gods, as hinduism, paganism, and henotheism (to name a few) will testify. But from YHWH's perspective there is no god beside Him, and no one even like Him…Isaiah 44:6,8
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isaiah 45:21
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like MeThere is only one true God, YHWH – He is in a metaphysical class all on His own. There cannot be a primary and a secondary God (as henotheists teach), scripture couldn’t be clearer on this. There is one God and everything else is creation. All other “gods” are in fact false gods and not really gods at all….
Refer: Deu 32:21, 1 Sa 21:21; Ps 96:5; Isa 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cr 8:4; 10:19-20; Gal 4:8-9
Blessings
Excellent! Is 1:18
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 23 2006,04:27) Sscott,
Just curious….are you a watchtower?
absolutely not.Always believed Trinity since being born again….even though there were many scriptures I would read and could not understand how they agreed with the doctrine. But seeing as how everyone I knew that loved Jesus told me the Trinity was the way God was I accepted it.
A few months ago I had been sharing my faith with people from many different faiths….all within about a months time frame. Muslims, Mormans, JW's, Non-believers(unchurched), people who believe we should keep the whole old test law…ect. I found myself explaining the “nature of God” and realized I did not fully understand how many verses fit what I said I believe.
So I decided instead of just accepting what everyone says I would pray and search the scriptures and the doctrine myself.
Truth is I can find scriptures that seem to endorse both view of the Godhead. But the question is which doctrine, or what doctrine, correctly explains all the verses.
Being a Trinitarian among Trinitarians I found that many Trinitarians cannot explain many verses and simply pass it off by saying “it's just a mystery”. I find this unacceptable. Most Christians believe that the Trinity is a fundamental doctrine of the faith and that you cannot be a “real” Christian without believing it; even though they cannot explain all the scriputes…one must just accept it as fact..by faith.
You know… I can build a defense for Calvinism or Armenianism from the scriptures by focusing on certain verses. The question is what is the Truth when all the verses are compared. The same should be true with the nature of God.
I posted questions about the Trinity on another Christian forum and you would have thought by their reponses that I should be burned at the state for questioning such an established doctrine.
Quote absolutely not. Always believed Trinity since being born again….even though there were many scriptures I would read and could not understand how they agreed with the doctrine. But seeing as how everyone I knew that loved Jesus told me the Trinity was the way God was I accepted it.
A few months ago I had been sharing my faith with people from many different faiths….all within about a months time frame. Muslims, Mormans, JW's, Non-believers(unchurched), people who believe we should keep the whole old test law…ect. I found myself explaining the “nature of God” and realized I did not fully understand how many verses fit what I said I believe.
So I decided instead of just accepting what everyone says I would pray and search the scriptures and the doctrine myself.
Truth is I can find scriptures that seem to endorse both view of the Godhead. But the question is which doctrine, or what doctrine, correctly explains all the verses.
Okay…thanks for clearing that up.
The reason I asked is that your posts of late seemed (to me) to demonstrate a bias towards watchtower thought. And then you when you questioned me on the context of the Isaiah passages it strongly reminded me of a Greg Stafford rebuttle in a christological debate I saw recently…By the way, I do recognise that the context of the Isa passages is about YHWH contrasting Himself with the “gods” of the various nations that surrounded Israel, not false gods in general. But the same principle holds in both a narrow and broad context. There is, after all, only one divine being, right?
Quote Being a Trinitarian among Trinitarians I found that many Trinitarians cannot explain many verses and simply pass it off by saying “it's just a mystery”. I find this unacceptable. Most Christians believe that the Trinity is a fundamental doctrine of the faith and that you cannot be a “real” Christian without believing it; even though they cannot explain all the scriputes…one must just accept it as fact..by faith.
A couple of things I would say about this. Firstly, I wouldn't judge a doctrine as invalid because a few uninformed adherents can't defend it. And secondly, to say that YHWH, a Universe-creating SUPREME being is in some sense mysterious is hardly a surprising statement. And anyone who claims to exhaustively understand YHWH is clearly lying or deluded, or both. We don't even really understand ourselves sscott. Do you know anyone who can explain in detail how the human soul and spirit interface. Or even WHAT our spirit is precisely? We barely comprehend the physical part of our being, let alone the metaphysical parts. And how much more complex a being is the Creator?….That's not to say that we can't consider the all information He has given us and draw some rational conclusions…
Quote You know… I can build a defense for Calvinism or Armenianism from the scriptures by focusing on certain verses. The question is what is the Truth when all the verses are compared. The same should be true with the nature of God. I posted questions about the Trinity on another Christian forum and you would have thought by their reponses that I should be burned at the state for questioning such an established doctrine.
Yes, you could build a case for any concievable doctrine by selective proof texting. It's my position that the trinity doctrine best accounts for ALL Biblical data relevant to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Blessings
Quote absolutely not. Always believed Trinity since being born again….even though there were many scriptures I would read and could not understand how they agreed with the doctrine. But seeing as how everyone I knew that loved Jesus told me the Trinity was the way God was I accepted it.
A few months ago I had been sharing my faith with people from many different faiths….all within about a months time frame. Muslims, Mormans, JW's, Non-believers(unchurched), people who believe we should keep the whole old test law…ect. I found myself explaining the “nature of God” and realized I did not fully understand how many verses fit what I said I believe.
So I decided instead of just accepting what everyone says I would pray and search the scriptures and the doctrine myself.
Truth is I can find scriptures that seem to endorse both view of the Godhead. But the question is which doctrine, or what doctrine, correctly explains all the verses.
Being a Trinitarian among Trinitarians I found that many Trinitarians cannot explain many verses and simply pass it off by saying “it's just a mystery”. I find this unacceptable. Most Christians believe that the Trinity is a fundamental doctrine of the faith and that you cannot be a “real” Christian without believing it; even though they cannot explain all the scriputes…one must just accept it as fact..by faith.
You know… I can build a defense for Calvinism or Armenianism from the scriptures by focusing on certain verses. The question is what is the Truth when all the verses are compared. The same should be true with the nature of God.
I posted questions about the Trinity on another Christian forum and you would have thought by their reponses that I should be burned at the state for questioning such an established doctrine.
Praise God sscott. You are doing the right thing by searching the truth out yourself and praying that the Comfortor will lead you into all truth.
I Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
By the way is the abreviation of your name here:
earching-cripture-[C]onfirmation-[O]n-[T]he-[T]rinity?Blessings
Hi,
Defending trinity doctrine is such a thankless task. Every plank you think you have fixed causes the one next door to spring a leak and your whole task seems to be preventing the old barge from sinking completely. Far better to abandon the ancient and condemned man made vessel to it's inevitable fate, avoid the risk of going down with it, jump out of her, and let the loving everlasting arms hold you up.Quote Posted: Nov. 23 2006,07:32 ——————————————————————————–
Hi,
Defending trinity doctrine is such a thankless task. Every plank you think you have fixed causes the one next door to spring a leak and your whole task seems to be preventing the old barge from sinking completely. Far better to abandon the ancient and condemned man made vessel to it's inevitable fate, avoid the risk of going down with it, jump out of her, and let the loving everlasting arms hold you up.NH
Very poetic.
I think that you have sprung the leak though. If you think that you have the Nature of the Creator of the universe figured out, or have full knowledge of who he is. Maybe you should jump aboard with those of us who acknowledge that we are just mere little worms compared to Him who sits on the throne and upholds all things by the Word of his power.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.I Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.I Cor 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
[19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
[20] And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
[21] Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
[22] Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
[23] And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.I Cor 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
[2] And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
[3] But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
[4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
[5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
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