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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 20 2006,04:50) Quote Right..but isn't the word God in Hebrew …”Elohim”…which is plural meaning mighty ones/divine ones? It can be looked up on blb.org My wife and I are “one flesh” but it does not mean we are physically one. My brothers in Christ are supposed to be “one is Spirit” but it does not mean we are one being.
Sscott
I beleve that is what I have been saying! Three in one!
But my wife and I are two “separate” people with different wills who can live without the other. IN the Trinity if you don't have one member you don't have God.Quote But my wife and I are two “separate” people with different wills who can live without the other. IN the Trinity if you don't have one member you don't have God. This is true. But God is One in substance and essence, and you cant seperate him from The Word Jesus or His Spirit! No more than you can seperate you soul and spirit and Body or you wouldnt be you!
Quote Hi WJ, Hope you find this refutation helpful in seeing why once again, the Trinity is false.
Now let's go to Genesis 1.
A single speaker is identified until we get to Genesis 1:26 when the speaker clearly speaks in plural terms to an audience:
Immediately following this plural tone, the scriptures revert back to the singular tone, focusing once again on the speaker in vs. 27, and we are told w/ all certainty that HE – GOD – created HE them… not that THEY created, but HE created:Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness HE called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in HIS [own] image, in the image of God created HE him; male and female created HE them.
Trinitarians say that GOD must be a Trinity because Jesus was inclusive in Gen 1:26, and yet, we have been told without a doubt that Jesus is himself the FIRSTBORN IMAGE of the Invisible God.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
So the Son of God is said to be an Image of his Father.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among MANY BRETHREN.
Can you not see that by the grace of God, we through Christ, who is the firstborn Image, are also images of the invisible God? (Remember that Adam and Eve had a sinless state at one time and were also images of the invisible God but CHANGED after the fall, whereas Christ remains the same yesterday, today and forever).
The Second Adam retains his image of God, unlike the first; he is given to be the firstborn of many brethren and it is the Father's desire that WE be conformed to his son's image.
But whose image does the son have to begin with? Therefore, is Genesis 1:26 confirmed. But don't overlook that the Son has the Invisible God's Image.Whose image does the invisible God have? He bears no one's image that we've been told of. He alone is True God and Father of all.
Blessings.
Hey Cubes
I almost agree with you, however I need to know what you mean by “Firstborn”. By this are you saying Jesus had a beginning?
And by the way Col 1:15 doesn’t say that Jesus is the Firstborn Image of the invisible God. It says he **IS** the Image of the invisible God the firstborn of every creature meaning by him was **all** things created.
Col 1: 16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, **visible and invisible**, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
The word beginning is arche {ar-khay'} which means:
1) Beginning, origin
2) The person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) That by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active causeJesus is the origin, the active cause of the creation. To the creation he is the first-born. He is before all things and by him all things consist.
YLT puts it like this:
1:14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins, 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all thing s through him, and for him, have been created, 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
So since he is not of the creation, then he is the creator! Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:You use Col 1:15 And Rom 8:29 together as if they are saying the same thing!
Col 1 speaks of Jesus being the beginning, the first born of creation.Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among MANY BRETHREN.
Romans speaks of Jesus being the firstborn of Many brethren.
Big difference from the creation. For we are the sons of God by Birth through the incarnation of the Son.
The Scriptures also tells us that he is the Firstborn of the dead .
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
The word **express** is
charakter {khar-ak-tare'}
The exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness.So Jesus is not just a first born image of God, Implying that he shares the same position with God as we do.
Yes Cubes we do share the divine nature of God and are being conformed to the image of his Son. However, let us not forget that:
*We are the created………………………………… Jesus was not created!
*Our Spirits are born of the Spirit. ………….Jesus is the quickening Spirit!
* We are being formed into his Image………Jesus is The Image!
*We share in his Glory………Jesus is the Brightness of his Glory
*We eat the Manna the Bread of Life…… Jesus is the Bread
*We drink of the Spirit……………………..Jesus is the Spirit
*Jesus Is…….
*Jesus Is…….
*Jesus Is…….
and on and on.“In the volume of the book it is written of me”
“Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life, but they are they **that testify of ME**You say” Whose image does the invisible God have? He bears no one's image that we've been told of. He alone is True God and Father of all.”
Jesus said “If you have seen me than you have seen the Father” “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
Again,
He is the eternal Word that came out of the bosum of the Father and was manifest to us, showing us who the invisible God is! God has revealed himself to us through the Son and requires no less worship and honour and praise to him. For he is one with Him in substance, in essence and in Glory and power and all of who he the Father is! All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in the Born Son of God bodily and you should know that when God the Father returns in Jesus in all of his Glory that every eye shall see Not The Father the invisible God, But Jesus by whom he has made himself visible! And at that time all of creation shall do homage to him bowing the knee of things in Heaven and things in earth and things under the earth and that every tongue shall con
fess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father the invisible God! Jesus said that he will return to this earth with the Holy Angels in all of his Fathers Glory! If you are looking for the Father God you will only see Jesus, for he is the express image of the Father!
The eternally existing Son is the “image” of the invisible Father, the One who declares, reveals, embodies His essence. Although He is always “in the bosom of the Father,” yet He is eternally also “the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person” (Hebrews 1:3). He is the eternal, living Word, which was “in the beginning with God” (John 1:2), and which “is God” (John 1:1).Show me where this is unscriptural.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 20 2006,07:26) Hey Cubes I almost agree with you, however I need to know what you mean by “Firstborn”. By this are you saying Jesus had a beginning?
And by the way Col 1:15 doesn’t say that Jesus is the Firstborn Image of the invisible God. It says he **IS** the Image of the invisible God the firstborn of every creature meaning by him was **all** things created.
Col 1: 16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, **visible and invisible**, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
The word beginning is arche {ar-khay'} which means:
1) Beginning, origin
2) The person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) That by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active causeJesus is the origin, the active cause of the creation. To the creation he is the first-born. He is before all things and by him all things consist.
YLT puts it like this:
1:14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins, 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all thing s through him, and for him, have been created, 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
So since he is not of the creation, then he is the creator! Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:You use Col 1:15 And Rom 8:29 together as if they are saying the same thing!
Col 1 speaks of Jesus being the beginning, the first born of creation.Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among MANY BRETHREN.
Romans speaks of Jesus being the firstborn of Many brethren.
Big difference from the creation. For we are the sons of God by Birth through the incarnation of the Son.
The Scriptures also tells us that he is the Firstborn of the dead .
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
The word **express** is
charakter {khar-ak-tare'}
The exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness.So Jesus is not just a first born image of God, Implying that he shares the same position with God as we do.
Yes Cubes we do share the divine nature of God and are being conformed to the image of his Son. However, let us not forget that:
*We are the created………………………………… Jesus was not created!
*Our Spirits are born of the Spirit. ………….Jesus is the quickening Spirit!
* We are being formed into his Image………Jesus is The Image!
*We share in his Glory………Jesus is the Brightness of his Glory
*We eat the Manna the Bread of Life…… Jesus is the Bread
*We drink of the Spirit……………………..Jesus is the Spirit
*Jesus Is…….
*Jesus Is…….
*Jesus Is…….
and on and on.“In the volume of the book it is written of me”
“Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life, but they are they **that testify of ME**You say” Whose image does the invisible God have? He bears no one's image that we've been told of. He alone is True God and Father of all.”
Jesus said “If you have seen me than you have seen the Father” “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
Again,
He is the eternal Word that came out of the bosum of the Father and was manifest to us, showing us who the invisible God is! God has revealed himself to us through the Son and requires no less worship and honour and praise to him. For he is one with Him in substance, in essence and in Glory and power and all of who he the Father is! All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in the Born Son of God bodily and you should know that when God the Father returns in Jesus in all of his Glory that every eye shall see Not The Father the invisible God, But Jesus by whom he has made himself visible! And at that time all of creation shall do homage to him bowing the knee of things in Heaven and things in earth and things under the earth and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father the invisible God! Jesus said that he will return to this earth with the Holy Angels in all of his Fathers Glory! If you are looking for the Father God you will only see Jesus, for he is the express image of the Father!
The eternally existing Son is the “image” of the invisible Father, the One who declares, reveals, embodies His essence. Although He is always “in the bosom of the Father,” yet He is eternally also “the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person” (Hebrews 1:3). He is the eternal, living Word, which was “in the beginning with God” (John 1:2), and which “is God” (John 1:1).
Nice.Repeating myself here…..
Nick, why would God send the Holy Spirit if He is the Holy Spirit? Obviously the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, just as the Word is the Word of God.
Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
Why would God send Himself? That doesn't line up with Scripture.
Quote (Cubes @ Nov. 20 2006,04:36) Hi WJ, Hope you find this refutation helpful in seeing why once again, the Trinity is false.
Now let's go to Genesis 1.
A single speaker is identified until we get to Genesis 1:26 when the speaker clearly speaks in plural terms to an audience:
Immediately following this plural tone, the scriptures revert back to the singular tone, focusing once again on the speaker in vs. 27, and we are told w/ all certainty that HE – GOD – created HE them… not that THEY created, but HE created:- Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness HE called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
- Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
- Gen 1:27 So God created man in HIS [own] image, in the image of God created HE him; male and female created HE them.
Trinitarians say that GOD must be a Trinity because Jesus was inclusive in Gen 1:26
Hi Cubes,
If Creation is in some sense attributed to two seperate beings; an Almighty God whose name YHWH and a lesser, Mighty God Who is His Son, how would you explain Isa 44:24?Isaiah 44:24
24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myselfThis verse records that YHWH created unaided. How then can we reconcile a particularly emphatic statement like this with other statements made by NT writers detailing Yahshua's role – Joh 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, 10 (not to mention the Holy Spirit's role – Job 33:4, 26:13)?
Seems to me that all the Biblical data on creation considered, Isa 44:24 presents a blatant contradiction for the non-trinitarian….
Blessings
Hi Oxy,
You say
“Nick, why would God send the Holy Spirit if He is the Holy Spirit? “God is not the Holy Spirit .
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who is a spirit being.
The Holy Spirit is shown as the finger of God in Lk 11.But the Holy Spirit fully represents God and blasphemy against the Spirit of God is worse than against the Son but as against God Himself as is lying to God's Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Eph 2
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 20 2006,07:03) Quote But my wife and I are two “separate” people with different wills who can live without the other. IN the Trinity if you don't have one member you don't have God. This is true. But God is One in substance and essence, and you cant seperate him from The Word Jesus or His Spirit! No more than you can seperate you soul and spirit and Body or you wouldnt be you!
Yes..but I cannot send my spirit or soul to do anything separate from me. (I also do not have internal fellowship with my body, soul, spirit)Also what is complicated for the Trinity view is how God could forsake God on the Cross. If God is not God without all three then how did God forsake Jesus on the cross. I have been told that He just forsook the humanity of Jesus on the cross. But that would mean that He didn't really forsake His Son and would seem to make the whole thing a formality.
So if God is not God without all three How can God forsake Himself?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 20 2006,13:19) Quote (Cubes @ Nov. 20 2006,04:36) Hi WJ, Hope you find this refutation helpful in seeing why once again, the Trinity is false.
Now let's go to Genesis 1.
A single speaker is identified until we get to Genesis 1:26 when the speaker clearly speaks in plural terms to an audience:
Immediately following this plural tone, the scriptures revert back to the singular tone, focusing once again on the speaker in vs. 27, and we are told w/ all certainty that HE – GOD – created HE them… not that THEY created, but HE created:- Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness HE called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
- Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
- Gen 1:27 So God created man in HIS [own] image, in the image of God created HE him; male and female created HE them.
Trinitarians say that GOD must be a Trinity because Jesus was inclusive in Gen 1:26
Hi Cubes,
If Creation is in some sense attributed to two seperate beings; an Almighty God whose name YHWH and a lesser, Mighty God Who is His Son, how would you explain Isa 44:24?Isaiah 44:24
24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myselfThis verse records that YHWH created unaided. How then can we reconcile a particularly emphatic statement like this with other statements made by NT writers detailing Yahshua's role – Joh 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, 10 (not to mention the Holy Spirit's role – Job 33:4, 26:13)?
Seems to me that all the Biblical data on creation considered, Isa 44:24 presents a blatant contradiction for the non-trinitarian….
Blessings
Hi Is:There is one orginal and foremost builder and creator, who is the God and Father of our Lord. But as you realize, Jesus is also called a builder in Hebrews, and yet, the context surbordinates him to God the Father, who is the ultimate builder of the temple which Jesus (together w/ us) is (Eph 2:20f, 1 Peter 2:4f, ).
Job 38:1 Then YHWH answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, …. Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I LAID THE FOUNDATIONS of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 WHO HATH LAID the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or WHO HATH stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the CORNER STONE thereof;
Since the creation, even men continue to invent incredible things to this day, within God's creation using his resources, so it should not surprise us that Jesus under the authority of God, should be endowed and commissioned with far greater creativity within God's ORIGINAL framework of creation.In other words, when Jesus designs something, the ingenuity, matter (supplies) and model (designs) would have to be out of something God has already provided him, therefore the Father is the source of all things as per the scriptures.
This, is not said of Christ.
Put another way, Jesus is the heir OF ALL THINGS. In other words, he has nothing that was not first given to him and that would include any creative powers. The Father on the other hand is heir to no one, and is the provider to us all.
I realize that the verses below do not speak of creation but they do reveal the Son's relationship with his Father, and are essentially giving us details, telling us that this is the way things are, even thru to Revelation when we are told that The Lord God Almighty Created all things and by his will sustains them (Rev 4).
Finally, in such light, the texts you cited, rather strongly affirm what I am saying. Please consider your texts in light of the fact that Jesus is truly the image of our invisible God, and is the firstborn of creation through/by whom all things were made.
Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I DO NOTHING OF MYSELF; BUT AS MY FATHER HATH TAUGHT ME, I speak these things.
Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you FROM MY Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Jhn 5:30 I CAN OF MINE OWN SELF DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Every blessing!
God is a being of order and reason. He is the author of intelegent design. Does the Dual Nature Doctrine line up with God’s attributes of logic, design and reason?
There are literally 100 of scriptures that prove Jesus to be human. Nearly all Christian Churches lay claim to believing that He is fully human, however they also add a concept of Jesus being fully God. This is commonly refered to as “The Dual Nature of Christ”
This Dual Nature Doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides use this doctrine to support their concepts of God. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination?
First let us define the term nature from common modern language.
Nature in modern dictionaries includes these definitions;
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing:
The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament:
The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. One synonym would be disposition or character. A person's nature refers to the combination of qualities that idenity a person or being.Here we see a clear discription of “Nature”. So it is obvious that one aspect of Nature is the characteristics or make up of a person.
Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated.
In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.
Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him.
Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?
Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal.
God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being.
Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite.
God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!
There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being.
There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd.
Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.
Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.
This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.
What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted by those whom he so desperately loved.
Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?
Some will ask how did he do things like forgive sins if he is a human being? The pharasees’ ask the same question. Matthew 9/2 through 8 Jesus says to the crippled man “Courage son your sins are forgiven” On seeing this some of the teachers said among th
emselves “ This man is blaspheming”! Jesus knowing what they were thinking said. “Why are you entertaining evil thoughts in your hearts?
Tell me which is easier to say? Your sins are forgiven or get up and walk. But Look! I will prove to you that the Son of Man (Son of Man again denoting his humanity) has authority on earth to forgive sins.” He then said to the paralized man… Pick up your mattress and go home. {Everyone there understood what happened next as explained in verse 7 and 8….} and the man got up and went home. When the crowds saw this they were awestruck and praised God, the giver of such authority to HUMAN BEINGS!!!What authority was given to human beings? The entire context is about the authority to forgive sins! Notice also that Jesus does not correct the crowd’s celebration of the authority to forgive sin being given to humans. The crowd recognised Jesus as human and that is why they were awstruck at the power given him. If he was God they would have been less surprised. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus had no problem pointing out blasphemy, yet he made no correction here. Perhaps because this power given to humans to forgive sin is not blasphemy. In fact scripture is very clear on the subject.
Matthew 16:19
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:18
“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion. Again I am taken back to Hebrews 1. How can I believe in a God that cannot exist?
Without the dual nature of Christ, both Trinitarian and Oneness doctrines cannot stand, but there is so much more to this story.
Go On, music4two! I really enjoyed reading your post and agree.
Furthermore, if Jesus is dual in nature by virtue of being born by the spirit of God, then so are we (and may be that answers some of the questions you raise), since we likewise become the children of God through being born again by the spirit of God. But either way, the Trinitarians have no choice but to include humans in their doctrine whichever way they turn the cube!, that is, if they insist on a Trinity (Binity or Modal God).
And welcome, BTW.
Quote (sscott @ Nov. 20 2006,20:30) Yes..but I cannot send my spirit or soul to do anything separate from me. (I also do not have internal fellowship with my body, soul, spirit) Also what is complicated for the Trinity view is how God could forsake God on the Cross. If God is not God without all three then how did God forsake Jesus on the cross. I have been told that He just forsook the humanity of Jesus on the cross. But that would mean that He didn't really forsake His Son and would seem to make the whole thing a formality.
So if God is not God without all three How can God forsake Himself?
Good points, Sscott: How does one forsake oneself? Ultimately that would be suicide, wouldn't it?Hey you guys – Is and Oxy:
Job 26:13 By HIS spirit HE hath garnished the heavens; HIS hand hath formed the crooked serpent.Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Given your interpretation, is the “breath of the Almighty” to be considered as a separate person? If anything, this confirms that the Spirit is a part and parcel of God as I have often said.
The contrast here with Jesus as the Word is that, Jesus has a separate will whereas the Spirit has never been shown to have a separate will apart from he whose spirit it is. Hope that helps.Further more, Oxy, I question that the “Word of God” is ALWAYS a reference to Jesus in EVERY context. If so be it, then Jesus is also a seed (Luke 8:11), but then that could be said of us too.
Quote (sscott @ Nov. 20 2006,15:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 20 2006,07:03) Quote But my wife and I are two “separate” people with different wills who can live without the other. IN the Trinity if you don't have one member you don't have God. This is true. But God is One in substance and essence, and you cant seperate him from The Word Jesus or His Spirit! No more than you can seperate you soul and spirit and Body or you wouldnt be you!
Yes..but I cannot send my spirit or soul to do anything separate from me. (I also do not have internal fellowship with my body, soul, spirit)Also what is complicated for the Trinity view is how God could forsake God on the Cross. If God is not God without all three then how did God forsake Jesus on the cross. I have been told that He just forsook the humanity of Jesus on the cross. But that would mean that He didn't really forsake His Son and would seem to make the whole thing a formality.
So if God is not God without all three How can God forsake Himself?
Prior to finding the Lord I was into astral travel. It was the ability to astral travel that first convinced me that there was life after death. Praise God He set me free from this!Hi Oxy,
So astral travel involves spirit guides? How do you get rid of them if you have had a spiritual relationship with them and how do you know they cannot still deceive you in spiritual matters? Would it not be wise to prove every spiritual idea by scripture because of what you have been through?Paul had a great advertisement walking with him promoting his mission that he discerned was not of God.
Acts 16
” 16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. “
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 20 2006,21:18) Hi Oxy,
So astral travel involves spirit guides? How do you get rid of them if you have had a spiritual relationship with them and how do you know they cannot still deceive you in spiritual matters? Would it not be wise to prove every spiritual idea by scripture because of what you have been through?Paul had a great advertisement walking with him promoting his mission that he discerned was not of God.
Acts 16
” 16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. “
Spirit guides Nick? Where did I mention spirit guides?Astral travel is an out of the body experience that is only able to be achieved through demons.
I didn't know that at the time, but when I got in over my head I got down on my knees and said “God, if you are real, help me”
The voice I heard said “The name of Jesus is used to cast out demons”
I cried out “Jesus” over and over and felt the demons leave me. Shortly after that I surrendered my life to God and He restored my mind, setting me free from demons and false understandings.
I know what it is to have a sound mind, thanks Nick.
The Lord has taught me from the Scriptures and while I don't know everything (obviously) I am more than happy with the relationship I have with my Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now Nick, you really have to stop accusing me of things I do not say lol. It seems to be quite a habit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2006,00:49) Hi Oxy,
Perhaps you could tell us about it in a new thread?
Do you really think there's a need for it Nick?Quote (Cubes @ Nov. 20 2006,15:42) Hi Is: There is one orginal and foremost builder and creator, who is the God and Father of our Lord. But as you realize, Jesus is also called a builder in Hebrews, and yet, the context surbordinates him to God the Father, who is the ultimate builder of the temple which Jesus (together w/ us) is (Eph 2:20f, 1 Peter 2:4f, ).
Job 38:1 Then YHWH answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, …. Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I LAID THE FOUNDATIONS of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 WHO HATH LAID the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or WHO HATH stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the CORNER STONE thereof;Since the creation, even men continue to invent incredible things to this day, within God's creation using his resources, so it should not surprise us that Jesus under the authority of God, should be endowed and commissioned with far greater creativity within God's ORIGINAL framework of creation.
In other words, when Jesus designs something, the ingenuity, matter (supplies) and model (designs) would have to be out of something God has already provided him, therefore the Father is the source of all things as per the scriptures.
This, is not said of Christ.
Put another way, Jesus is the heir OF ALL THINGS. In other words, he has nothing that was not first given to him and that would include any creative powers. The Father on the other hand is heir to no one, and is the provider to us all.
I realize that the verses below do not speak of creation but they do reveal the Son's relationship with his Father, and are essentially giving us details, telling us that this is the way things are, even thru to Revelation when we are told that The Lord God Almighty Created all things and by his will sustains them (Rev 4).
Finally, in such light, the texts you cited, rather strongly affirm what I am saying. Please consider your texts in light of the fact that Jesus is truly the image of our invisible God, and is the firstborn of creation through/by whom all things were made.
Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I DO NOTHING OF MYSELF; BUT AS MY FATHER HATH TAUGHT ME, I speak these things.
Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you FROM MY Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Jhn 5:30 I CAN OF MINE OWN SELF DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Every blessing!
Hi again Cubes, thanks for replying. I think you missed my point though. Isaiah 44:24, as I read it, is an unequivical and exclusivist statement – strongly affirming that no one other than YHWH “stretcheth forth the heavens” and “spreadeth abroad the earth”:“I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself“
YHWH did it alone, what else could “alone” or “by myself” possibly mean?
If Isaiah 44:24 declares, in the the most emphatic and unambiguous language available, that no one other than YHWH created “all things”, on what grounds can you postulate that a lesser being, who was not YHWH, was involved in any capacity?? Wouldn't that, in essence, be a direct challenge to YHWH's claim?
It gets worse….
Hebrews 1:10
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine handsPsalm 102:25 was written in exclusive reference to the Most High God, YHWH, and the writer of Hebrews unequivocally applied it to Jesus. According to the writer it was the Father Himself who personally addresses His Son as the actual executor of the Creation event!
How can we reconcile Isaiah 44:24 and Hebrews 1:10 within the framework of monarchial monotheism? I don't think you can…..
Blessings Cubes
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