The Trinity Doctrine

[Ambassador of Christ]

Hey t8,

It’s been a while since I’ve been on here, but I do have a question. Can you explain biblically how we are to worship Jesus Christ?

[dmateo]

Some thought I would like to share:

Regarding eternality and existence. We all exist since the very beginning in the thought of the one and only God. Christ, angels, humans, earth the universe, of this time, yesterday, tomorrow or 1000 years ago and after all exist within the enclosure of God Almighty.
Why ? Eternal, the very beginning, before, start, birth, death are all inside the scope of time. The almighty is beyond any scope including time. And since our existence depend solely on Him who create us, our design, personality down to every last details had already exist beyond time, inside the mind of God Almighty. Thus we have surpassed time, thus we are out of scope of time. Why are we arguing about who is in the beginning. Beginning is not a finite boundary, just as lenght, width and height. Can you tell me the biggest number ? How can you fit something that is so Grand, so infinite as God, to a mere punny dimensions such as time ? The time of occurance is only a sequence. "Word" was first as everything is created through it. The universe are next. Jesus the person came to earth 2000 years ago. God delcare him as His Son around 2000+33 years ago during baptism.

Regarding Christ, The Everlasting Father, Migthy God, Immanuel, Yashua.
Come to time of creation, everything was created through His Word. When he speaks "let there be light". Light was created by God Almighty through His "Words". The "Words" later became a "flesh". This "flesh" would later on given a name "Immanuel". This very "flesh" is the one who dies on the cross and gave up his life to redeem our life from sin. The "Word" is God’s. It’s sent by God. It’s the representavive of God. But it’s is not God Almighty himself whose names’s YHWH (we all agree on this trinity or non trinity).
Later when the "flesh" grows to age (33 if I’m now wrong), He was declared as the Son of God during baptism.For on that Day, God Almigthy said "You’re my Son. Today I have become your father". He was not the Son of God before, he was made lower than angles (as the flesh human are lower than angel), and through his submission, he was exalted to sit at the right side of God Almighty. (read Hebrew 2:7-9).

For all trinitarian, an interesting passage to read plus the following Hebrew chapter 1. Especially pay close attention to verses 9.

As a closure statement allow me to asked the following few question.
who declares that polytheism is wrong.
Who declares that monotheism is right ?
Who declares non trinity as a heresy or as a cult ?
By what authority have we declared trinity or any other teaching to be the sole truth ?
By what authority have we claimed that we really understand the bible ?
By what authoriry has any of us declared one that is not following our teaching as condemned ?
By what authority have we declare something as the truth ?
By what authority have we declare any other humans condemned ?
By what authority have we appointed yourself as judges of others ?

Are not all this authority belongs to God Almighty ?. All others speak of this truth as it was revealed to them by the one only GOD. No humans has authority over humans, except for the Son of Man, who has been given all authority by God Almighty, and He will come at the appropriate time to judge the living and the death.

[Proclaimer]

Quote

Quote: from Ambassador of Christ on 2:35 pm on Dec. 29, 2003 Hey t8, It's been a while since I've been on here, but I do have a question.  Can you explain biblically how we are to worship Jesus Christ?

Hi,

It's good to hear from you.

I haven't come to a full understanding of this subject, but I am convinced that we do not worship Christ as God, but as the Son of God.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Nowhere is it recorded that people worshiped him as God. Heavenly worship is directed to the Father and then to the Son. The Son is worshiped as the Lamb of God.

Revelation 5:11-13
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
12 In a loud voice they sang:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

This is in line with acknowledging that Jesus is Lord. For there is one God and there is also one Lord. The word Lord in the New Testament is not to be confused with the word LORD in the Old Testament.

Now to some this may seem like breaking the commandment of God as we are to worship one God and no other. But remember that Jesus is not worshiped as God and in addition to that, we have at least one verse in the bible that uses the same word worship as directed toward men, not as a sinful thing, rather it is God's doing.

Revelation 3
9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Now I used the KJV as it uses the word worship, but the more modern translations use the words bow down. The word for worship used here is exactly the same as the one that is used with worshipping God and Christ/Lamb.

If Jesus were worshiped as God, then would that not be a violation of a commandment. I believe the answer is yes it would, but if we worship him as the Son of God or the Lamb of God then it wouldn't.

I believe we need to keep to the divine order of God > Christ > Mankind. We should never worship anything lower. For example, I think it is okay for animals to worship humans, for we are their lords.

E.g. Pets are really cute when you come home and they go absolutely beserk at your presence. I believe that God made the animals to fear us and respect us as lords over the earth.

[Proclaimer]

To dmateo,

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with most of what you say and the other stuff could be right too, just not too sure.

I do think that we have the right to declare what is in scripture and if we recieve a revelation of any kind, it should line up with scripture. For God does reveal himself so that Men can know him. Of course it is impossible for a finite even with eternal life to understand the Infinite fully. But I guess that is what keeps us in joy and worship for all ages to come.

I know that Jesus returned to the glory that he had with the Father in the beginning, so this does point to Christ being with the Father in glory before he came to earth?

I have a writing on the pre-existance of Christ @
<a href="https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm

I” target=”_blank”>https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm

I use a lot of scripture which we have the right to do. I hope that my conclusion is correct, but I am willing to be challenged on it.

I agree that we mere men have no rights when talking about God, except what he has revealed in scripture and revelation. It is these things that we talk about and if only to know the truth about the Great God who is above all and who is eternally more worthy than our searching hearts.

[Ambassador of Christ]

t8,

You said,
"Nowhere is it recorded that people worshiped him as God. Heavenly worship is directed to the Father and then to the Son. The Son is worshiped as the Lamb of God"

You then went on to cite Revelation 5.  Can you explain exegetically where the worship in chapter 4 changes and becomes a different kind of worship in chapter 5?  How do you differentiate between the kind of worship given to Him who sits on the throne in 4:8-11 and the worship in 5:11-14 given to both Him who sits on the throne AND THE LAMB?  It seems that you can draw one of two things from this passage exegetically.  

Either

1) the worship in 5:11-14 is not true and proper worship reserved only for God (given that the Lamb is one of whom is also worshiped, and thus should not be worshiped the same as God)  

or  

2) This is true and proper worship reserved only for God and it is directed also to the Lamb.

If (1) is the case, then it would follow that this worship is sinful, in that they are worshipping the one who sits on the throne with the same kind of worship as the Lamb.  To worship the one who sits on the throne with any kind of worship less than that which God is worthy (in your theology, God deserves better worship than the kind of worship the Lamb deserves), is without a doubt, sinful.

If (2) is the case, then this is proper worship reserved only for God, and it is directed at both the one who sits on the throne AND THE LAMB, meaning that the Lamb does indeed receive the same worship as the one who sits on the throne, which would be proper worship.

I hope I was able to express my question clearly.  If any clarification is needed, please let me know.  I would like to hear your thoughts on these questions and your exegetical insight as to how we differentiate between the worship in Revelation 4 and Revelation 5.

[Proclaimer]

To Ambassador, The worship is directed at God the Father and the Son too. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus worshiped as God. I even gave you an example of Jesus being worshiped as the Son of God in Matthew 14:33 and in Revelation the Lamb of God is worshiped.
1) Son of God2) Lamb of God.
Where is Jesus worshiped as God?
In addition to that, I gave you an example of men worship with regards to men in Revelation 3:9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Now lets imagine that this scripture was talking about Christ. If so, I would have no doubt in my mind that you and other Trinitarians would use it to prove that Jesus is God. But it is talking about the Church in Philadelphia and therefore we have legitimate worship outside God and we know that we are not the God, even though we are actually gods.
Now in the Ten Commandments it is written (Exodus 20:3-5)
3 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
It says that you should have no other God and that you should not worship any idol made with human hands. Nowhere is it written that we cannot worship Jesus as the Son of God.
Now my God is YHWH. I assume that you would say that your God is YHWH too, but you also say that Yeshua/Jesus is YHWH.
But your doctrine is confusing because it says in  Psalm 2:7 the following:
“I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”
Therefore YHWH (God) is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of YHWH. Jesus is not YHWH, he is the son of God.
Even in Revelation 7:10-12 it clearly shows worship of God and to the Lamb. So God and the Lamb are clearly distinguished.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”
It's simple stuff really. A child could understand it easier than a brainwashed person because a child is innocent and only needs to learn something, whereas a brainwashed person has to first unlearn something in order to learn something new. That is why I have to repeat myself over and over again.
Here is an intersting exercise you could try. Where ever the word God is mentioned in the scripture, substitute it with the word 'Trinity' and then see how confusing your doctrine becomes.
E.g. John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
That makes 4. The Trinity + Jesus =4.
Or try Matthew 27:46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”–which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
So did the Trinity forsake Jesus?
Or try this one for size. Colossians 1:3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,So here it would mean that the Father is the whole Trinity that is if God were a Trinity, which he is not.
The Trinity doctrine is so confusing that Trinitarians cannot even understand it. It is not a mystery at all, it is sheer foolishness because it is the wisdom of man trying to explain God, an idol made by man. As it is written, “Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools .”
Lastly I would like to point out the meaning of the word worship.
4353 (Strongs) 'proscuneo'
To kiss like a dog licking his masters hand.
fawn or crouch
prostate oneself in homage
reverence, adore, worship.

Have you done any of these things to anyone but God. If so, then according to your own judgement, you have indulged in sinful worship.

I revere and adore God just as I do Christ. In fact I also revered and adored my mother when she was alive. But I didn't revere her as God, yet I did revere and adore her.

[Ambassador of Christ]

t8,

I’m tempted to just start responding to all of the side issues you brought up, but I will refrain so as to refocus on what I actually asked you. Is the one who sits on the throne in Revelation 5:11-14 being worshiped "as God?" Yes or no?

Let?s try to keep the focus on Revelation 4-5 so that we can exegete the passage and let the passage speak for itself.

[Proclaimer]

When you look at the word worship, most of the time it is in reference to worshiping God (lets ignore false gods and idols). In addition to God, Jesus the Lamb of God and the Son of God is also mentioned, but again I say that most of the time the word worship is mostly in the context of God the Father. In Revelation where both are mentioned, it is the Father who is mentioned first.

I believe that this is in respect to the divine order which is God the Originator > Christ the only begotten > and the sons of God.

Now it is clear from scripture that there are 2 on the throne, God and Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8:1
The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,

Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

So how do we worship an invisible God. I believe we see his glory and Jesus is the Glory of God, but even the heavens declare his glory. But Jesus declares the fullness of God.

Now God exists in creation but also outside creation and even heaven itself. So yes, God himself is seated on the throne, yet it is said that God himself is omnipotent (except within sinful things). So he can be seated on the throne and also live inside his people at the same time.

2 Chronicles 6:18
“But will God really dwell on earth with men? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

However Jesus exists in the highest Heaven on the highest throne but within Heaven and he is the Lord and the Father exists in Heaven too, but he also also outside Heaven itself.

So perhaps the throne is the place where the Spirit of God shines through from outside of Heaven from eternity and into his creation in the form of light and cloud (depicted also in the transfiguration) and if so, the light of God would shine through his Son Jesus Christ, so that the glory of God would be all around him and through him.

After all Jesus is known as the Image of the Invisible God, but he is not the invisible God himself. It is through Christ that we can see and understand God and herein lies the error that has crept in that Jesus is that God. It is incorrect to say that the Image of God is God himself. He is distinct from God, it is the scriptures that teach this.

So it is clear that Christ is mentioned as the Lamb of God and distinct to God himself in the visions of the throne of God. But it is also clear that he is worshiped too. So he is being worshiped as the Lamb of God according to scripture and not God himself.

Creation sees the glory of God primarily through Christ, but also through the things he has made.

Nowhere in scripture are we taught the Trinity or that Jesus is God. Nowhere is Jesus worshiped as the Almighty God. But scripture is full of references to him being the Son of God and that he was worshiped as such.

So I declare and I teach that Jesus is the Son of God. He is the Lord and the Lamb of God.

[Ambassador of Christ]

t8,

I appreciate your response, but in all that you said, you did not answer my question.  I want to be very specific in what I’m asking, and I would appreciate a very specific response.  Is the one who sits on the throne (the Father) IN REVELATION 5:13 being worshiped AS GOD?  Can you please provide a yes or no response?  

[Proclaimer]

My previous quote:

So it is clear that Christ is mentioned as the Lamb of God and distinct to God himself in the visions of the throne of God. But it is also clear that he is worshiped too. So he is being worshiped as the Lamb of God according to scripture and not God himself.

In Revelation 7:10-12 it shows that they worship God. The Lamb is spoken of as another.

10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

So the Father is worhiped as God and the Son is worshiped as the Lamb.

[Ambassador of Christ]

t8,

you said:
"So it is clear that Christ is mentioned as the Lamb of God and distinct to God himself in the visions of the throne of God. But it is also clear that he is worshiped too. <font color=red>So he is being worshiped as the Lamb of God according to scripture and not God himself.</font> "

My question was in regards to the Father in this passage.  Are you saying that the Father is here in Revelation 5:13 being worshiped as the Lamb?

[dmateo]

To T8,

The first part of my though are what it is, a thought, no matter how interesting it’s just a tought that I have. It has no explixit explanation or statement in the bible. It’s only there to show how many argument that could rise on that point. How impossible it is for a person who sees from a peek hole to understand the full picture is impossible unless being told by someone who has seen the full picture.

I have learned a lot from this website, thanks to all the wornderfull discussion between you, Global, Ambassador of Christ and all others.
The question I posted is just to remind you all. We are no judge of our self. And no one of us can be 100% sure that we’re the most reliable and 100% correct understanding of the bible. We’re human, imperfect human. We’ve lost our crown when our forefather fall into sin.
At the time of creation, didn’t Adam share the same glory as God ? Having all the atribute of God (knowledge, holiness etc). Do you ever recall Adam being Told that Eve was taken from his rib ? Yet, has you ever question how is it that in his reply he knows that Eve was part of his body, that Eve was taken from one of his Rib ?
To call one believer a heresy or a cult is not what we’ve been given authority to do. No human ever has the right to judge other human (with the exception of Christ or people that is given the authority by Christ/ YHWH). We discuss things that we believe, but by no means what we believe had to be enforced by force to other. The truth will shine, it will always be there, no matter what you say and no matter how you hide it.
Man logic and understanding will not be enough to help us understand the words of God, but only by the guidance of the Holly spirit can we be revealed of the truth.
May the Holly Spirit be the only one that lead us all in our search of this truth.

[Proclaimer]

Quote

Quote: from Ambassador of Christ on 2:39 pm on Dec. 30, 2003 t8, you said: "So it is clear that Christ is mentioned as the Lamb of God and distinct to God himself in the visions of the throne of God. But it is also clear that he is worshiped too. <font color=red>So he is being worshiped as the Lamb of God according to scripture and not God himself.</font> " My question was in regards to the Father in this passage.  Are you saying that the Father is here in Revelation 5:13 being worshiped as the Lamb?

Good point,

I can see how it looks that way.
I am just saying that God is worshiped and in addition to that, the Lamb is also. In no way am I saying that God is the Lamb, in fact I am saying the opposite.

thx

[Ambassador of Christ]

t8,

I understand it looks that way, because I believe that is exactly what the text says.  In Revelation 5:13, the SAME heavenly worship is directed at the 2 persons, namely, the Father and the Lamb.  You only have 2 ways to understand what is taking place in this passage.  Either this is worship reserved only for God, or this is worship reserved only for the Lamb.  If the latter is the case, then we have a serious problem.  The only worship given to God in heaven will be divine worship (worship reserved only for God).  Giving God the same worship as a mere creature, no matter how exalted, is to put God on the same level as that creature.  That would indeed be sinful, and we know this cannot take place in Heaven.  The only way to resolve this is if we lay aside our presuppositions of what kind of worship we THINK the Lamb should receive, and let the text speak for itself.  When we do, we see that this is divine worship; this is perfect sinless worship wherein God is given the fullest glory, the highest reverence and worship that He deserves and demands.  And yes, the text DOES present the Lamb receiving the SAME divine worship.  If we exegete the passage, and let the text speak for itself, this is the conclusion.  I encourage you to stick with this passage, work through it and meditate on it.  I’m am more than willing to discuss THIS TEXT with even greater attention and do all that I can to converse with you on it so that we both pull from it God’s truth.

[dmateo]

To Ambassador of Christ,

Why is it so difficult to see the obvious. When you accept Christ did you accept him only or did you accept the one who sent him ? When you honor Christ did you honor him only or did you not also honor the one who sent him. When you see Christ Glory, did you see only his Glory or the glory of the one who sent him? When you worship Christ, did you worship him only or also the one who sent him?

If someone prays in front of a statue of his God, does he prays to the statue or does he prays to what the statue is representing ?

[Proclaimer]

My conclusion thus far is that John reveals that God and the Lamb are worshiped in Heaven. I can only conclude that 2 identities are revealed and they are both worshiped.

I cannot see where you get the idea that the worship is meant for the Divine only, and your conclusion that Jesus is worshiped either as God or as a creature and either way is damning to the other.

First of all, I do not believe that Christ is a creature. I believe he was begotten of God. He is the only begotten and was not created through the Word/Christ because he is the person that God created creation through.

Rather I believe that Jesus is unique, between God and Man, that is why he is the mediator between God and Man and this explains why God who cannot look upon sin, sent his son to not only take our sin upon himself, but to also pay the price of that sin and die. I do not believe that God can die or take sin upon himself.

Now when we look at the Revelation verses regarding worship at the throne, we can see that God is worshiped because he is well, God. But we can see that the Lamb is worshiped not because he is God, but because he was slain for us and therefore he is worthy to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” I mean how can God receive such things anyway, he is after all God.

Jesus died for us and the host of Heaven are so grateful for his sacrifice that they worship and sing praises to him because they appreciate with incredible gratuity his great sacrifice in laying his life down so that they/we can live. Did not the people of Israel sing songs of honour to David their King?

So to me it seems there are different reasons for worshiping God and the Lamb at least in the occassion that John saw before the throne. But they did work together so there will be some overlap in gratefulness. After all it was God's will not Christ's will that he take the cup of suffering. But it was indeed Christ who suffered first hand at the hand of sinners and the Father suffered to have to turn away from his Son when he took the sin on himself.

In addition to this, how do we not know that what John saw was an ocassion of gratuity from the redeemed for being redeemed. On such an ocassion would not all parties involved be praised. Does not the world even praise those who win oscars or other such worldly honours for much less.

Now if we look at Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”  

We can see that it is God who has ordained that angels to worship his son. This says it all to me. Jesus is not worshiped because he is God himself, but because God (himself) says that angels are to worship him.

Now we are not talking about God making angels worship a creature, rather the Son of God (the only begotten), the Lord and the Messiah. These are worthy enough attributes for us to not only pay homage and honour, but to also praise him because of who and what he is.

If Israel honoured and praised David their King, then how much more shall we honour and praise the Lamb of God who was slain for us.

[Ambassador of Christ]

t8,

You said,
"Now when we look at the Revelation verses regarding worship at the throne, we can see that God is worshiped because he is well, God. But we can see that the Lamb is worshiped not because he is God, but because he was slain for us and therefore he is worthy to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" <font color=red>I mean how can God receive such things anyway, he is after all God.</font> "

Well, God received them in Revelation 4:11. If the Father can receive it, so too can Christ. It does not follow that because they are worthy to receive glory, honor, and power that they themselves are not infinitely glorious and honorable and powerful. I know you aren’t willing to say that God lacks in any of those. But you made another point I want to look at:

You said:
“First of all, I do not believe that Christ is a creature. I believe he was begotten of God. He is the only begotten and was not created through the Word/Christ because he is the person that God created creation through.”

When I said creature I was referring to the fact that Jesus is created, brought into existence; you believe there was a time when the Word was not. You reject that Jesus is omnipotent, omniscient, infinite in His being, from everlasting to everlasting. You reserve those attributes for God alone. I’m pointing out the problem of both believing this and making any sense out of Revelation 5:13.

You said:
“I cannot see where you get the idea that the worship is meant for the Divine only, and your conclusion that Jesus is worshiped either as God or as a creature and either way is damning to the other”

I’m not attacking your position that proskuneo (translated worship in Revelation 5:14) is used in reference to the Divine only, that’s not my point at all. I recognize that proskuneo is used with reference to those other than God. But I also let the context tell me how the word is being used, whether or not it is divine worship reserved only for God. No, this is not my point at all. Allow me to refocus and try asking one more time. You are the one who differentiates between the worship given to Christ in Scripture and the worship given to God. I’m bringing you to Revelation 5:13 and keeping your consistent in your interpretation of Scripture. You want to differentiate between their worship, fine. Which is taking place in Revelation 5:13? You cannot satisfactorily answer this question by saying, “well, the Lamb is worshiped because He was slain, not because He is God.” That’s not an answer to the specific question, <font color=red>WHICH TYPE OF WORSHIP IS TAKING PLACE? Not why, WHICH! “Christ worship” or “God worship” in Revelation 5:13?</font>

I interpret this text without the bringing presuppositions of what I think about Christ, and then read those into the text. I allow the text to speak for itself, and clearly this is Divine worship, for indeed, Christ and the Father are being worship THE SAME WAY. It is blasphemous to worship the infinite, omnipotent, omniscient, infinite God the same way as any other being, no matter how exalted. To do so would be to bring the Almighty down to the level of that lesser being; this would be absolutely sinful. No, I chose to allow the text to speak for itself, and the context of the text is heavenly, sinless worship, and the text says this is directed to the Father IN THE SAME WAY as the Son. Thus, this is an example of divine worship being given to the Lamb. To interpret this passage any other way would not only be to create an immense contradiction in the text, but would simply be eisegesis.

If you would like to exegete Revelation 4 and 5, I’m willing. But if you do not wish to interact with the text and also provide an answer my question (Christ worship of God worship?), then I do not feel this conversation will be fruitful. I pray that it will be.

[Proclaimer]

Your quote with regards to Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

Revelation 5:11-13
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
12 In a loud voice they sang:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

If we look at these 2 scriptures God, we see that Christ receives both  
“praise and honor and glory and power,”

But the Lamb of God also receives wealth and wisdom and strength. I can understand that the worhippers are giving honor and glory although the strength part is hard to imagine, but I cannot imagine God receiving wealth, wisdom and strength and as far as I know the worhipers are saying these things exclusively to the Lamb.

The part about Christ being a creature: My stance is that The God existed for all time and that God begat a son (called the Son of God). In other words God became a Father when he begat a son. The scripture is clear that creation is all that was created by God through Christ. So Christ cannot be created, he was given birth directly from the Father. All else was made through Christ. This is why Jesus is called the only begotten Son of God, even though God's children are referred to as sons.

If you look at the Wisdom scripture in Proverbs 8:22-30 (English-NIV) it talks about the concept of wisdom, then to Wisdom himself and even here it talks about being born.

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

Your question: “Allow me to refocus and try asking one more time.  You are the one who differentiates between the worship given to Christ in Scripture and the worship given to God.”

What I am saying is that the Revelation scripture distinguishes between God and the Lamb and shows that they both receive praise and honor and power. I don't see what the deal is here. 2 identities being praised for what they have done. I think that even Trinitarian thinking would agree with that. You talk about which worship. But it is just worship or praise.

I mean if I drink a bottle of beer and then you do, is the beer different? If I praise Leonardo Da Vincii for his works and I praise Martin Luther King for his beliefs does it mean that one kind is Da Vincii worship and the other Martin Luther King worship. Or does it mean that I am praising them both?

You then say that you see this worship as Divine worship and you are entitled to your belief, but you have no proof because the worship and praise is directed to God first and in addition it is also directed to the Lamb. He is clearly spoken of as distinct from God, just as he is elsewhere in scripture.

Your quote: “It is blasphemous to worship the infinite, omnipotent, omniscient, infinite God the same way as any other being, no matter how exalted.”  may or may not be true, but I do not have a problem with saying I praise you God for creating us and I praise you Jesus for dying for my sins. I have no problem with singing these praises although a guitar would help. I can praise them both. In fact I can praise anything that I see as good. But I praise God because he is God and I praise no one else as God.

My God is my Father and the Son of God is my Lord. Why shouldn't I praise them because I do not praise Jesus as God, but the Lord. I praise the Father as God and him alone do I praise as God.

Your last comment: “Christ worship of God worship?”, Well it is quite clear which worship is going where because it identifies God and the Lamb. The fact that they are identified and distinguished is not my interpretation, but a simple reading of the scripture itself. It is the scripture that makes the distinction. I do not feel at liberty to blur such scriptural distinction.

In the end, I think that if God is identified and then another called the Lamb is identified and you believe that the Lamb is God, then you have God + God instead of God + the Lamb. One of these options promotes 2 Gods and that option I certainly do not hold to.

[Ambassador of Christ]

t8,

I don’t think you understand the point of my question at all. I will not continue to press the issue. If we see eachother on instant messenger, perhaps we can talk there. I hope that we can.

God bless

[Proclaimer]

I do understand your position. You are saying that the worhip is divine worship and therefore it would be wrong to worship God and then the Lamb, if the Lamb were not God.

It is just that I do not agree with your idea. I believe that Jesus is honoured, praised as the Son and the Lamb of God. I don't have a problem with that.

If David was honoured and praised as the King of Israel, then why cannot Christ be honored and praised as he is much greater than David.

Matthew 21:9
The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, “Hosanna to the Son of David!”
“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”
“Hosanna in the highest!”

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