The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hi k4c,
You see how easy it is to take a scripture or two and dress them up in the garb we choose to justify what we have decided is truth? The strong support of the ivory towered “experts” and the great mass effect of the similarity betwen the doctrines of the traditional churches gives great comfort to the complacent.

To be openminded is far more difficult.
Go the bereans.
You are heroes.

November 14, 2006 at 9:06 pm#32406

Participant

Hi,
Is 42
“1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein”

Matt 20
” 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

So God has a servant.
God is not that servant who is His son.
God has anointed that servant with His Spirit.
That Spirit is not another person but His Spirit.
God has appointed His servant Christ to rule for Him.

God said these things so men should not add to what is written about Him.

November 14, 2006 at 9:22 pm#32407

Participant

Hi,
Acts 3
” 13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

16And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”

So Jesus is here identified as the

The One sent by God
The Servant of God
The Son of God
The Prince of life
The Holy and Righteous One
The Prophet
The One raised by God.
The One who was to suffer.
The Christ of God

But not another person in God or a part of any trinity God.
That was added by men. Anathema.

November 15, 2006 at 5:11 am#32417

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote

But not another person in God or a part of any trinity God.
That was added by men. Anathema.

Unscriptural!

JN 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

November 15, 2006 at 5:15 am#32418

Participant

Hi W,
Read it again.
“10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.”

Christ is in the will and authority of the Father and the Father is indwelling him to the fullness of deity. UNITY

Christ did not say things he could have said to justify your doctrine.
He did not say
“I AM THE FATHER”
or
“THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE AND THE SAME”

November 16, 2006 at 1:49 am#32442

Participant

Hi,
If you develop a theory about spiritual matters then to be berean you must search the scriptures for evidence that is obvious. If it is true it will be spoken clearly and backed up. The trouble with trinity is that it is not anywhere found as a clear bible teaching. Yet men come here with it as the basis of what they believe and they expect us to try and disprove it. It disproves itself because it is a stranger to the bible.

At least pagans worship and pray to their multitude of gods.
Nobody prays to or worships a trinity God.
So what use is this bizarre theory?

November 16, 2006 at 6:04 am#32445

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2006,05:15)

Christ is in the will and authority of the Father and the Father is indwelling him to the fullness of deity. UNITY

Christ did not say things he could have said to justify your doctrine.
He did not say
“I AM THE FATHER”
or
“THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE AND THE SAME”

Nick.. you're making sense! Praise the Lord!! LOL

November 16, 2006 at 8:12 pm#32464

Participant

Hi ,
Matt 17
“2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”

Why would men refuse to believe the testimony of God about His Son?

1Jn 5
” 9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

November 17, 2006 at 4:47 am#32520

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 12 2006,14:45)

Nick, by His own confession, the Son is the door to the Father. Praise Jesus for what He has done. He has rescued me from certain destruction and restored me to my Father in Heaven, who has given me His Holy Spirit to teach me, guide me and comfort me etc.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Amen to that Oxy.

November 17, 2006 at 4:51 am#32522

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2006,00:11)

Quote

But not another person in God or a part of any trinity God.
That was added by men. Anathema.

Unscriptural!

And are not God and Christ in us, the children of God.

What does it mean that God is in us? That we are God?

No. It means that we are one with God, just as Jesus is one with God. Jesus is one with the Father and so we can too, but through Christ.

When we are one with Christ, then we are one with God the Father.

When 2 are one, that is not meant to be taken as being one being.

A man and a woman can be one, even one flesh. But not one being.

The Trinity doctrine doesn't make sense and is contradictory to that which is revealed to us in scripture.

November 17, 2006 at 5:23 am#32529

Participant

So t8, tell me, I believe in one God and this is how I see that one God.

He is God the Father, God Almighty
The Word of God restored to His former glory, with God and is God as in John 1**
The Holy Spirit, Comforter, Teacher, Guide etc.

The Father is greater than the Son, but has given the Son a name that is above evry name. The Father has also made blasphemy of the Holy Spirit unforgiveable.

This is my God.

**Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

November 17, 2006 at 5:31 am#32532

Participant

Why don't you see it like this:

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

What will you do with these scriptures Oxy?

Cast them away because they do not agree with a creed that was developed hundreds of years after the last book in the bible was written?

Are we to simply ignore these scriptures and hundreds of others that teach clearly that God is a Father and he has a son who is referred to as the son of God?

Because for me Oxy, these scriptures are important and even if I do not understand them, I accept what they say simply because they are scripture.

However they are not that hard to understand, and when you do understand them, you will find no contradiction in scripture. The truth doesn't bring confusion, yet the Trinity is confusing and said to be beyond our understanding.

Is not accepting ALL scripture a better way, than holding to a creed and ignoring hundreds of scriptures in order to hold that creed?

November 17, 2006 at 8:50 am#32551

Participant

t8, thanks for those Scriptures. It seems that for every Scripture that says one thing, there is a Scripture that says the other.

I know the Father
I know Jesus
I know the Holy Spirit

I also know they are one. Not in the sense that they become without individual identity, but three who make up the one Godhead.

The Father is greater than the Son. Jesus Himself confessed this, but Jesus has been exalted far above all.

I don't have any more trouble accepting that God is three than I do accepting that I, being made in His image, am also three. I am body soul and spirit. Is one part of me not me? Not at all, but all three parts are distinguishable and identifiable in their own right, but they all make up me.

November 17, 2006 at 9:48 am#32552

Participant

There are no scriptures that contradict that there is one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all

It only contradicts if you first put on a Trinity pair of glasses and see all scriptures through them. But if you understand that there is one God and Father of all, then all scriptures work in harmony because it is true.

If you or anyone's understanding of God doesn't fit with all scripture, then it is a persons understanding that needs to change is it not.

This next scripture actually says that Jesus isn't God.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Surely a creed or belief must fit with scripture. If it doesn't then we need to change. But if we stubbornly hold to our belief, then are we not putting our head in the sand?

November 17, 2006 at 6:42 pm#32581

Participant

You put up a good argument t8, but then so do the others.

November 17, 2006 at 7:43 pm#32582

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 17 2006,08:50)

t8, thanks for those Scriptures. It seems that for every Scripture that says one thing, there is a Scripture that says the other.

I know the Father
I know Jesus
I know the Holy Spirit

I also know they are one. Not in the sense that they become without individual identity, but three who make up the one Godhead.

The Father is greater than the Son. Jesus Himself confessed this, but Jesus has been exalted far above all.

Hi Oxy,
You align the nature of man with that of God.
God is not made in our image.
Man is body, soul and spirit.

God is not body and never has been.
God is spirit according to scripture so your analogy is dead.

God is without beginning or end.
The Word partook of flesh for 30 odd years.
For the last three God's Spirit indwelled that being.

Yet that is enough to justify a man like trinity for you?

Does God care what we believe?
Yes and those that fear God will abhor falsehood.

2Jn
“7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
Rev 2
” 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

November 17, 2006 at 10:03 pm#32586

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 18 2006,13:42)

You put up a good argument t8, but then so do the others.

Thanks Oxy.

But may I say that this should never be about me or you winning an argument. No it should be that scripture wins and we align ourselves with the truth of scripture.

We should align ourselves with scripture even in the face of the majority (if they differ with scripture) because the WHOLE world is under the sway of the evil one, and it is prophesied that there will be a great falling away before the coming of our Lord.

So it shouldn't come as a surprise that a major doctrines today can be wrong. Remember before the Reformation when men didn't know that salvation was a free gift of God. People back then paid money to have their sins forgiven. As the Church we must progress and not be afraid to let go of things that were not given to us by God.

In science we also see deception. A major precept of scientific understanding today believes that we are sophisticated monkeys. But can so many be wrong?

Anyway I gotta have breakfast. Banana on my cereal sounds good.

November 18, 2006 at 1:26 am#32594

Cubes

Participant

Not too much monkey business there, t8!

November 18, 2006 at 5:28 am#32605