- This topic has 18,300 replies, 268 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 08 2006,23:53) Quote God is in heaven where Jesus told us to pray to Him, and the Son of God is at His right hand. Acts 7
” 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. “
And Christ is here within his body with the Father as Spirit.
Hey Nick!
Oh thats right you dont believe that God is everywhere!
Nick my Bible says that all the fullness of God dwells in Jesus and his Spirit (God is Spirit) dwells in me. Not his agent..A Spirit of God! Agency..Talk to JWs.
Romans 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Interesting Nick… Spirit of Christ,Spirit of God = One Spirit! God is a Spirit”Ring any bells yet Nick?
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
One Spirit NicK!
II Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Hi w,
What is your concept of God?
Is He a being with a place of residence or an amorphous entity with no residence?
If the second is the Spirit of God part of this amorphous being or another person in God?
How do you understand this verse?
Acts 10.38
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”Was God anointed by God with God and God was with God?
My view is that God is a being and heaven is His throne but He manifests throughout His creation through His amazing Spirit who filled Jesus and can fill us uniting us in Jesus with Himself.
Quote Hi w,
We know scripture is true.
So looking at these verses
Phil 2
” 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”Eph 3
” 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.”Applying these verses to you I ask;
Should I come and worship God in you?
If not why not.How about this one
Eph 2
20″And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
Should we go and worship God in the assembly?
If not why not.Because God is in heaven and we can each worship Him in our own spirit temples in which His Spirit dwells connecting us with God. And together we make up a larger temple, the body of Christ, the new Jerusalem.
Eph 2
” 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the FatherNick!
I dont even know how to respond to such a statement (being nice).
Am I seated at the right hand of God Glorified as one with him? Is my Spirit Gods?
Why do you make me respond to such???
You are in denial Nick! You wont even accept plain reason!
God is everywhere Nick. The Kingdom has come it is in us!
In that Kingdom there is a throne in which Jesus and the Father rules.
His rule is in me! He is in me. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him he is none of his!
How could he know your thoughts Nick?
You know what Im tired! You can have the last word its hopless to convince someone of the things of the Spirit by logic of debate!
Hi W,
Why did Jesus tell us to pray to God in heaven?Matt 6
” 9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”Psalm 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Matthew 5:34
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Matthew 23:22
And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Acts 7:49
Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?Quote Hi w,
What is your concept of God?
Is He a being with a place of residence or an amorphous entity with no residence?
If the second is the Spirit of God part of this amorphous being or another person in God?
How do you understand this verse?
Acts 10.38
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”Was God anointed by God with God and God was with God?
My view is that God is a being and heaven is His throne but He manifests throughout His creation through His amazing Spirit who filled Jesus and can fill us uniting us in Jesus with Himself.
Hey Nick!
You know I'm convinced that you dont listen to hardly anything that anyone says here!
You dont seem to remember any answers! You keep bringing up the same things with the same responses.
It always helps in a conversation if there is two communicating with each other. It seems you just scroll through the post to find a tid bit that you can pounce on rather than reading and trying to understand someons view!
Waste of your time and mine!
To answer your question in how I believe! I beg you to sincerely read a previous post!
I have never said God is omnipresent as such human theological words can never encompass our amazing God whose home is heaven. But God is not limited as we or angels are to having influence and awareness only in one area of life. We know He blew His breath into our dust to give us life and yet that spirit does not belong to us but to Him and returns to him at death.
Is God Omnipresent? If he isn’t then he isnt God!
Is God all knowing? Omnicient?
Is God all powerfull? Omnipotent?
To Be Omnicient and Omnipotent he has to be Omnipresent!
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made **all things** for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Pss 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put *all things* under his feet:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one **all things** in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh **all things** after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:22 And hath put **all things** under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over
**all things** to the church,Eph 3: 9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created **all things** by Jesus Christ:
Ehp 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill **all things**.
Eph 5:13 But **all things** that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue **all things** unto himself.
Col 1:16 For by him were **all things** created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: **all things** were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before **all things**, and by him **all things** consist.
Col 1:18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in **all things** he might have the preeminence
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile **all things** unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] **things in earth**, or **things in heaven**.
1 Tim 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth(gives life to) **all things**, and [before] Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of **all things**, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding **all things** by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] **all things**, and by whom [are] **all things**, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh **all things**; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I *fill* heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might *fill* all things.)
How could he create all things right down to the atoms and beyond and and upholding all things by the word of his power unless he is all in all?
Why do we try to limit him? The beautifull and glorious thing about our God is he can be In one place and everywhere at the same time! God is not limited to time and space like we mere mortals!
If he was not everywhere how could he know and number the hairs on your head? Or know every thought that you have!? Of course it is by his Spirit which is who he is! If the Spirit of God which can be everywhere all the time and knowing all things and having all power is not God then the “The Spirit would be greater than God” which is foolishness! Why do mortal men try to limit God to a Physical place when he is a Spiritual being?
How Great is God? Can you fathom it?
Long milleniums ago, God said, “Let there be light!” With that command a universe of raging infernos called stars came into existence, and have been transferring their energies into limitless energy-containing systems ever since. Even today, the seeming myriad's of stars and nebulae continue to be a breathtaking and inspiring panoply. When you go out and look up to the sky on a clear dark night, when the heavens look like dark blue velvet, and the stars like diamonds, it seems as though there were no end to the number of twinkling points of light. You would think that it was quite impossible to count the starry hosts, and that it would be just about as easy to count the grains of sand on the seashore. Really, however, there are not really so many stars to be seen with the unaided eye as you would imagine. They have often been counted, and the result is that the number of stars that an ordinary eye can see at any one time is somewhere about 2,000. If you have very keen eyes, you may be able to see another 500 or so; but there are not many people who can see 2,500 stars, and if you can see 2,000 you do fairly well.
By contrast, the Bible states in Jer. 33:22 that “the host of heaven **CANNOT BE NUMBERED**.” During the thousand's of years before Galileo's invention of the telescope, such a statement was considered to be either false or at least a gross exaggeration. The stars uncountable? The universe, they said, was too small to contain that many stars! However, using such giant telescopes as the “200 inch” on Mount Palomar in California, astronomers have estimated that there are billions of billions of stars in the visible universe. More specifically, astronomers estimate that their number is equal to 1,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000 or one sextillion. Is this an uncountable nu
mber? That is-the number that can be seen through the telescopes! But as far as man can see the universe stretches on and on into infinity- he has never discovered its outer perimeter. We therefore conclude that the term “uncountable” is indeed a very appropriate description of the number of stars in the universe. Yet in Ps. 147:4 we read that “GOD telleth the number of the stars; HE calleth them all by their names.” God is not only able to number the stars- these billions of billions of blazing suns- but He calls each of them by name–He has ascribed a nature, a power, a purpose to each!
To get some idea of the vastness of the universe…the star known as “Alpha Hercules” is more than 2,400,000,000 miles across. It is so huge that our own sun, together with the earth (at its distance of about 93 million miles from the sun) could be placed 25 times IN A ROW across the middle of this super giant star. To fly through-this star from one end to the other (if it were possible!) at 25,000 miles per hour your rocket would take 11 years! What distances! What a GOD! Psalm 19 well says, “The heavens declare the glory of God.” The stars shine on in their glory as in the beginning. Milleniums and cycles have gone by, kingdoms have arisen and slowly passed away. Yet the stars' brightness is not dimmed, nor their force abated. The dew of youth still seems fresh upon them. No faltering motion reveals the decrepitude of age. These shine on in undiminished glory through all the ages of time.
You or I in words cannot begin to explain nor understand the Greatness of our God!
And yet Jesus said, Math 10:7 “And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
The Kingdom of God could be grasped! In the Kingdom there is a throne and God sits on this throne!
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
[26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
[27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
[28] But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the **kingdom of God** is come unto you.
Luke 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Lk 17: 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The **kingdom of God cometh not with observation**:
[21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the **kingdom of God is within you**
The Spiritul realm is not bound to natural law. We are born into this spiritual realm be the Spirit!
If a man is not born again he cannot see nor enter the Kingdom of God which has come upon us, which is at hand!
.Heb 12: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
[27] And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
[28] Wherefore **we receiving a kingdom** which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
[29] For our God is a consuming fire.
The word Kingdom in the greek is: basileia {bas-il-i'-ah} royal power, kingship, dominion, rule.
The rule of God has come into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Our Spirits have been united with the Heavenly!
Rom 14:7 For the **kingdom of God** is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Why do men try to limit the *Power* or the *Presence* or the *Knowledge* of God and try to understand him through human reason! Can we not see that he is far above our natural thoughts.
1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[10] To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Can God be here in me and in heaven at the same time? Yes absolutely! There is no limit to him or his abilitys. The vastness of his creation only begins to declare the gratness of his Unlimitless Power and his Unlimited Wisdom and his Unlimited Presence!
God is ALL IN ALL! And he is before **all things**, and by him **all things** consist.David a Man after Gods own heart put it so beautifully…
Pss 139: 1] O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
[2] Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
[3] Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
[4] For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
[5] Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
[6] Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
[7] Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
[8] If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
[9] If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
[10] Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
[11] If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
[12] Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.Blessings
Hi W,
You say
“Is God Omnipresent? If he isn’t then he isnt God!Is God all knowing? Omnicient?
Is God all powerfull? Omnipotent?
To Be Omnicient and Omnipotent he has to be Omnipresent!”
The OMNI words suggest we can contain and encompass our God within our understanding. We do not need them as whatever boxes we make cannot hold the creator of the universe.
But we should believe what God told us that He has a Son and that eternal life is in His Son.
A trinity concept has no room for God to have a son.Hi W,
For those who cannot see the obvious truth that trinity is a monstrous and extraordinarily arrogant addition to scripture by God's puny and vulnerable creation, man, we try to show the false assumptions and attitudes that led to such a brave decision, so that men at least might decide for themselves, on the basis of scripture, whether they should reevaluuate their stance and not just go along with the crowd.Hi,
God is One.
God has a Son.
God filled His son with His Spirit.
Now they are one.
We can follow the Son.
Then God can be all in all.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 26 2006,19:44) OK, Is 1:18, we haven't done this dance in a little while, so I'll go 'round the circle one more time with you. 
You and I are clearly at opposite ends of the christology continuum and are unlikely to convince each other of anything…but for the sake of others, who may be undecided, I will answer…Quote Honestly, I don't get the distinction you are making. Let me try to simplify this as much as possible. Case 1:
Prophecy:
“Thus saith YHWH, In this thou shalt know that I am YHWH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood, (Exodus 7:17).”Agency Identified:
“And YHWH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt…, (Exodus 7:19).”Prophecy Fulfillment:
” And Moses and Aaron did so, as YHWH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river…, (Exodus 7:20).”
Let me try to simplify this as much as possible for you…. In the above passage the distinction between the source and agents is unambigious. It is very clear that Moses and Aaron are acting as YHWH's agents, YET no one would actually mistake them for YHWH, as they certainly are not ascribed the tertragammaton as a function of their roles as agent!! This is not the case in Zech 14, where no such distinction is drawn, and if the law of agency is in effect in the passage then it has to be assumed in the absence of explicit scriptural cues. You have to import into the text the presupposition that Yahshua is acting as His Father's agent (and is consequently called YHWH). Again, it would help validate your (and Adam Pastor's) theory that Yahshua is called YHWH in a representative sense, and not in an identitory sense, if you could simply produce another verse where a human agent other than Yahshua was explicitly ascribed the divine name, YHWH….otherwise it's the one exception in the entire Bible, and you shouldn't rightly build doctrine on that….Quote Case 2:
Prophecy:
“And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and YHWH my God shall come, and all the saints with thee, (Zechariah 14:5).”Agency Identified:
“To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints, (1 Thessalonians 3:13).”(As an aside, is the “his” in the verse referring to “God…our Father” or “Lord Jesus Christ”?)
Zechariah 14:5
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD [YHWH] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.Cf;
Daniel 7:13-27
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.Whose saints? The saints belong to the most High (H5946, ‛elyo^n, corresponding to H5945; the supreme: – Most high.), whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him (Dan 7:27). These were given to Him…
Daniel 7:14
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.The “Him” is the “Lord Jesus Christ”…..the saints were given to Him. Do you disagree? If so, on what basis?
Quote Prophecy Fulfillment:
TBDWhere's the difference?
The difference is one of identity….Moses and Aaron are not once given the name YHWH, Yahshua was….that is the difference.Quote Thanks for your respons
e. Just one further question:What distinction do you think Paul is making when he refers to the Father as the one God and Yeshua as the one Lord? Is it just a random choice of words?
I suppose Paul could have referred to both as “theos” (Paul used this appelative of Yahshua in his writings), but this may have been misunderstood as polytheism….something that Paul would have carefully avoided teaching to the church in paganism-saturated Corinth….BTW, what do you think Paul meant by “by whom (i.e. Yahshua) are all things, and we exist through Him (Yahshua).”
Quote I don't think that there is anything in the immediate textual context of the John 20:28 passage that indicates a dual address.
Yes – I agree. There is nothing textual to indicate this at all.Quote However, I do think that the cultural context of Thomas' statement casts a great shadow of doubt that he was identifying Yeshua as “God, the second person of the Trinity”. Thomas as a 1st century Jew was familiar with the Hebrew scriptures and Hebrew thinking, which, as Adam Pastor demonstrated in his post about “agency”, can be very different from modern day thinking. For example, he was clearly aware that “lord” was the proper appellation for YHWH's annointed one, (i.e. the king).
Look, this day your eyes have seen that [YHWH] delivered you today into my hand in the cave, and someone urged me to kill you. But my eye spared you, and I[David] said, ‘I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is YHWH’s anointed, (1 Samuel 24:10).’
Then Saul knew David’s voice, and said, “Is that your voice, my son David?” David said, “It is my voice, my lord, O king, (1 Samuel 26:17).”
This might explain the “my Lord” component of Thomas' address to Yahshua (we both know that “my Lord” is an appropriate honorific for a person of higher standing anyway…..), but for Thomas to directly address Yahshua and say to Him “the Lord of me and the God of me” is something entirely different.John 20:28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hands and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God' “In the utterance: “Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God'”, the Greek reads,
ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou
which literally translated reads – “Answered Thomas and he said to him, the* Lord of me and the God of me”
*Notice the definite article.
Quote And he was also aware that judges in Israel, who were supposed to represent YHWH, were called by the same Hebrew word for “god”, elohim. So he shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God, (Exodus 4:16).
He he….yes that's correct, Moses shall be ”as God” to them, not “the God” or simply “God”. Moses was not identified as YHWH or elohim in the verse….here is how the KJV renders the verse:Exodus 4:16 (KJV)
And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.So this is patently not a parallel verse to the John 20:28, if that's what your proposing….or do you think that the Jews would have addressed Moses as “God” because he was acting in the role of YHWH's agent?
Quote You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High, (Psalm 82:6).
Unrighteous judges called “Elohim” by God in irony, or perhaps even in a sarcastic sense? Probably.Quote Accordingly, Yeshua was both Thomas' lord, (i.e. the king, YHWH's annointed), and his god, (i.e. the divinely appointed judge over Israel). But, ultimately, any recognition of Yeshua as the divinely appointed judge of Israel was a recognition of YHWH himself as the Judge of all.
The plain truth of the matter is that Thomas addressed Jesus directly: “Thomas said to Him” (nominative being used for the vocative) “the Lord of me and the God of me”. I think if Thomas' intended the address to be taken in the representative sense he STILL would have known the overtly blasphemous implications of such an address (had Yahshua not been the God of him, that is). And also, if Yahshua was not truly “the God”, as a Rabbi He would have severely rebuked Thomas for taking the Lord's name in vain by calling Him “THE Lord” and “The GOD”, a clear and seriously blasphemous offense on His part too. So there are some difficulties with your exegesis….Yahshua was “the Lord” and “the God” of Thomas. That's the obvious interpretation.
Blessings
Hi,
Jesus is the Son of God.Pr 30
” 4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? “The Son existed when these words were written.
Quote Hi,
Jesus is the Son of God.Pr 30
” 4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? “The Son existed when these words were writen.
Looks like to me its prophetic of the future, ascension an return of Jesus!
Quote Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 26 2006,19:44)
OK, Is 1:18, we haven't done this dance in a little while, so I'll go 'round the circle one more time with you.You and I are clearly at opposite ends of the christology continuum and are unlikely to convince each other of anything…but for the sake of others, who may be undecided, I will answer…
Quote
Honestly, I don't get the distinction you are making. Let me try to simplify this as much as possible.Case 1:
Prophecy:
“Thus saith YHWH, In this thou shalt know that I am YHWH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood, (Exodus 7:17).”Agency Identified:
“And YHWH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt…, (Exodus 7:19).”Prophecy Fulfillment:
” And Moses and Aaron did so, as YHWH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river…, (Exodus 7:20).”Let me try to simplify this as much as possible for you…. In the above passage the distinction between the source and agents is unambigious. It is very clear that Moses and Aaron are acting as YHWH's agents, YET no one would actually mistake them for YHWH, as they certainly are not ascribed the tertragammaton as a function of their roles as agent!! This is not the case in Zech 14, where no such distinction is drawn, and if the law of agency is in effect in the passage then it has to be assumed in the absence of explicit scriptural cues. You have to import into the text the presupposition that Yahshua is acting as His Father's agent (and is consequently called YHWH). Again, it would help validate your (and Adam Pastor's) theory that Yahshua is called YHWH in a representative sense, and not in an identitory sense, if you could simply produce another verse where a human agent other than Yahshua was explicitly ascribed the divine name, YHWH….otherwise it's the one exception in the entire Bible, and you shouldn't rightly build doctrine on that….
Quote
Case 2:
Prophecy:
“And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and YHWH my God shall come, and all the saints with thee, (Zechariah 14:5).”Agency Identified:
“To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints, (1 Thessalonians 3:13).”(As an aside, is the “his” in the verse referring to “God…our Father” or “Lord Jesus Christ”?)
Zechariah 14:5
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD [YHWH] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.Cf;
Daniel 7:13-27
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.Whose saints? The saints belong to the most High (H5946, ‛elyo^n, corresponding to H5945; the supreme: – Most high.), whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him (Dan 7:27). These were given to Him…
Daniel 7:14
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.The “Him” is the “Lord Jesus Christ”…..the saints were given to Him. Do you disagree? If so, on what basis?
Quote
Prophecy Fulfillment:
TBDWhere's the difference?
The difference is one of identity….Moses and Aaron are not once given the name YHWH, Yahshua was….that is the difference.
Quote
Thanks for your response. Just one further question:What distinction do you think Paul is making when he refers to the Father as the one God and Yeshua as the one Lord? Is it just a random choice of words?
I suppose Paul could have referred to both as “theos” (Paul used this appelative of Yahshua in his writings), but this may have been misunderstood as polytheism….something that Paul would have carefully avoided teaching to the church in paganism-saturated Corinth….
BTW, what do you think Paul meant by “by whom (i.e. Yahshua) are all things, and we exist through Him (Yahshua).”
Quote
I don't think that there is anything in the immediate textual context of the John 20:28 passage that indicates a dual address.Yes – I agree. There is nothing textual to indicate this at all.
Quote
However, I do think that the cultural context of Thomas' statement casts a great shadow of doubt that he was identifying Yeshua as “God, the second person of the Trinity”.Thomas as a 1st century Jew was familiar with the Hebrew scriptures and Hebrew thinking, which, as Adam Pastor demonstrated in his post about “agency”, can be very different from modern day thinking. For example, he was clearly aware that “lord” was the proper appellation for YHWH's annointed one, (i.e. the king).
Look, this day your eyes h
ave seen that [YHWH] delivered you today into my hand in the cave, and someone urged me to kill you. But my eye spared you, and I[David] said, ‘I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is YHWH’s anointed, (1 Samuel 24:10).’Then Saul knew David’s voice, and said, “Is that your voice, my son David?” David said, “It is my voice, my lord, O king, (1 Samuel 26:17).”
This might explain the “my Lord” component of Thomas' address to Yahshua (we both know that “my Lord” is an appropriate honorific for a person of higher standing anyway…..), but for Thomas to directly address Yahshua and say to Him “the Lord of me and the God of me” is something entirely different.
John 20:28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hands and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God' “In the utterance: “Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God'”, the Greek reads,
ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou
which literally translated reads – “Answered Thomas and he said to him, the* Lord of me and the God of me”
*Notice the definite article.
Quote
And he was also aware that judges in Israel, who were supposed to represent YHWH, were called by the same Hebrew word for “god”, elohim.So he shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God, (Exodus 4:16).
He he….yes that's correct, Moses shall be ”as God” to them, not “the God” or simply “God”. Moses was not identified as YHWH or elohim in the verse….here is how the KJV renders the verse:
Exodus 4:16 (KJV)
And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.So this is patently not a parallel verse to the John 20:28, if that's what your proposing….or do you think that the Jews would have addressed Moses as “God” because he was acting in the role of YHWH's agent?
Quote
You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High, (Psalm 82:6).Unrighteous judges called “Elohim” by God in irony, or perhaps even in a sarcastic sense? Probably.
Quote
Accordingly, Yeshua was both Thomas' lord, (i.e. the king, YHWH's annointed), and his god, (i.e. the divinely appointed judge over Israel). But, ultimately, any recognition of Yeshua as the divinely appointed judge of Israel was a recognition of YHWH himself as the Judge of all.The plain truth of the matter is that Thomas addressed Jesus directly: “Thomas said to Him” (nominative being used for the vocative) “the Lord of me and the God of me”. I think if Thomas' intended the address to be taken in the representative sense he STILL would have known the overtly blasphemous implications of such an address (had Yahshua not been the God of him, that is). And also, if Yahshua was not truly “the God”, as a Rabbi He would have severely rebuked Thomas for taking the Lord's name in vain by calling Him “THE Lord” and “The GOD”, a clear and seriously blasphemous offense on His part too. So there are some difficulties with your exegesis….
Yahshua was “the Lord” and “the God” of Thomas. That's the obvious interpretation.
Blessings
Excellent Is 1:18.
Nick, by His own confession, the Son is the door to the Father. Praise Jesus for what He has done. He has rescued me from certain destruction and restored me to my Father in Heaven, who has given me His Holy Spirit to teach me, guide me and comfort me etc.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
Hi oxy,
Praise God.
And we know the Spirit because He does not speak of His own initiative but reminds us of the words of Christ.HI,
Christ too, a being with his own will, does not speak of his initiative but only according to the will of God, his Father.
John 5:30
” I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
John 10:18
” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”
John 12:49
” For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 11 2006,19:58) HI,
Christ too, a being with his own will, does not speak of his initiative but only according to the will of God, his Father.
John 5:30
” I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
John 10:18
” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”
John 12:49
” For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
Very true Nick!Hi Oxy,
So it is a submitted relationship. Unity by agreement between Father and Son. Two beings with the will of the lesser one submitted completely to the greater.Lk 22
“Luke 22:42
saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”Hi ,
Jude
“4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.”
…25to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen
God is one and He has a monogenes Son.
It is unwise to deny the Son of God.Is 1:18 wrote:
Quote You and I are clearly at opposite ends of the christology continuum and are unlikely to convince each other of anything…but for the sake of others, who may be undecided, I will answer… Agreed. We need not traverse the circle again – at least not for now.
I would like to respond briefly to your concluding thought though.
You wrote:
Quote Yahshua was “the Lord” and “the God” of Thomas. That's the obvious interpretation. Exodus 24:11 reads (in part):
“… So they saw God, and they ate and drank.”What is the obvious intepretation of this passage?
John 1:18 reads (in part):
“No one has seen God at any time. …”What is the obvious interpretation of this passage?
My point: Understanding that not all scripture can be read literally, (from a western-world point of view), is essential in interpreting scripture.
Adam Pastor's post about the Law of Agency was an attempt to point out to us western thinkers that there is sometimes a difference between the “obvious interpretation” of a passage and basic scriptural understanding.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
