The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 27 2006,03:29)

Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

John 14:26 is interesting. It kinda sums up that the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son, but is a “whom” being recognised by Jesus as an identity.

Time to give up Nick and t8 and all you others who don't believe.

October 27, 2006 at 7:40 pm#31340

david

Participant

Jesus said that He and the Father are one. –Oxy

Ok, we can stop using this in any connection with the trinity now as it proves absolutely nothing in any way whatsoever.

Praying to his Father, Jesus said:
JOHN 17:22
“Also, I have given them [his followers] the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

So Yes, the Father and the Son are one. And in the same way that they are one, his followers are one.
Obviously, this isn't speaking of a trinity. If it could be argued that Jesus is a trinity from this, it could just as easily be argued that all his followers are literally one being.

Quote

The Father has given Jesus a name that is above every name.

Jesus didn't acquire this himself. As you say, it was given him, as everything was “given” him. If authority has to be given to him, then is he equal to the one giving the authority? When it says all things have been subjected to him and through him and for him, it is with the obvious exception of His Father, who gave all things into his hands.
The name Jesus (Yeshua) which is above other names means: “Jehovah (Yahweh) is Salvation,” If I remember correctly.

We should start a thread on the holy spirit. I don't think there are any, are there? It's somewhat unequal to always be discussing how Jesus and his Father are a part of the trinity and so rarely mention that third equal part. Why is it that when discussing the equal parts of the trinity, the third part seems so unequal, at least in the time it is given?
I think a thread should be started on what the holy spirit is, and if it is part of a trinity.

david

October 27, 2006 at 8:26 pm#31341

Participant

David, where have I ever said that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal?

What I have said is:

Jesus said that He and the Father are one. The Father is just that, the Father. He is the instigator, decision maker and the ultimate authority.

The Father has given Jesus a name that is above every name. He is Saviour, the Door to the Father.

Jesus went to be with the Father so that the Holy Spirit could be sent. He (the Holy Spirit) has been sent to teach us and guide us into all truth, amongst His other roles of Comforter etc.

I worship the Father, praise Jesus and adhere to the Holy Spirit. This is my God.

Am I repeating myself? Oh yeah, I am..

October 27, 2006 at 8:27 pm#31342

Participant

And David.. unless I've missed something, you still haven't told me if you are born again… are you?

October 27, 2006 at 8:35 pm#31343

david

Participant

Sorry, Oxy, the last paragraph or two weren't directed to you, but people in general. You say:

Quote

David, where have I ever said that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal?

You're right. I really haven't read anything you've ever said. So I can't comment on what you have or haven't said.

But Nick and T8 don't believe that God is a trinity and I did glance these words from you on this “trinity” thread:
“Time to give up Nick and t8 and all you others who don't believe. “

So it's reasonable to conclude that you believe God is a trinity, and the standard definition of this includes the three being equal. Equal in age, power, wisdom, etc.

david

October 27, 2006 at 9:04 pm#31346

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2006,21:35)

Sorry, Oxy, the last paragraph or two weren't directed to you, but people in general. You say:

Quote

David, where have I ever said that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal?

You're right. I really haven't read anything you've ever said. So I can't comment on what you have or haven't said.

But Nick and T8 don't believe that God is a trinity and I did glance these words from you on this “trinity” thread:
“Time to give up Nick and t8 and all you others who don't believe. “

So it's reasonable to conclude that you believe God is a trinity, and the standard definition of this includes the three being equal. Equal in age, power, wisdom, etc.

david

Thanks David. I have learned that there seem to be a number of different definitions of the word trinity. I indeed use the word trinity to describe God and am now thinking that, in light of what I have seen here, perhaps I should not use that word.

To me the word trinity simply means three in one. One God consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not equal, but with an interesting twist.

The Father has exalted the Son above all.
Only blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.

So each has a status that the other doesn't. It shows the generous nature of the Father.

October 27, 2006 at 10:33 pm#31352

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 28 2006,02:35)

But Nick and T8 don't believe that God is a trinity and I did glance these words from you on this “trinity” thread:
“Time to give up Nick and t8 and all you others who don't believe. “

So it's reasonable to conclude that you believe God is a trinity, and the standard definition of this includes the three being equal. Equal in age, power, wisdom, etc.

david

Oh yeah David, and I don't know if Oxy includes this in his Trinity also, but the three must be literally one being, for that is how Trinitarians conclude that God is one. Either that or there is a group practice, like a medical office or law firm. Were it not so, the God of all would just be himself, the Father of all.

Three equal and distinct persons that make up one being known as God.

Please correct me somebody, if I got this wrong.

October 27, 2006 at 10:36 pm#31353

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 28 2006,03:04)

To me the word trinity simply means three in one. One God consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not equal, but with an interesting twist.

That definition of one God is not scriptural, Oxy. The one to whom there is no equal, he alone is the true God of all. The scriptures speak of him alone as the Highest [God].

October 27, 2006 at 10:49 pm#31354

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 27 2006,09:53)

Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 27 2006,03:29)

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

John 14:26 is interesting. It kinda sums up that the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son, but is a “whom” being recognised by Jesus as an identity.

Time to give up Nick and t8 and all you others who don't believe.

Hi Oxy,

If the holy spirit is a person other than the spirit of he who gives it, that is, the Father, then why was Jesus conceived by him according to the scriptures but then it is the Father whom Jesus addresses as Father and not the spirit.

Remember that by your definition, he has to be another personality and #3.

What do you think about this proposal, that the spirit really is the Father's spirit and through the spirit he brought forth his only begotten son and through the same spirit, he brings us forth to be the sons of God by which reason we cry out Abba, Father to the Father. This does not call for another personality or 3rd person, and identifies the Father as the primary giver of the spirit to his son and other children.

October 27, 2006 at 11:08 pm#31355

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 27 2006,01:54)

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Many of these people believed Jesus Christ to be the servant of God, Messiah and Son of God who was spoken of by the prophets. Of course, some refused these testimonies that he was THE SON OF GOD and promised Messiah. It is very important to realize that this was the claim he made concerning himself, never that he is GOD Almighty. Caiaphas tore his robe and handed him over to be crucified because he said he is the Son of God, and not because he said he is Almighty God. I feel this point is very important. It is consistent with all scripture.

We have to part here. Jesus Being the Son of God, the Only Begotten Son the Word that was with God,and the Word that was God, Jn 1:1]That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
[4] And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

Jesus is one with the Father in everyway Including deity. One God in three persons! three persons in One God! Sorry that that dosnt agree with you, but that is what is revealed in the Scriptures!

Hi WJ,

Why do you exclude us from that unity when Jesus says we are in?

1. If God is the builder of a temple not made with hands (and he is),
2. If Christ is the Chief cornerstone of this very temple of which we make up the living stones (and he is),
3. If Christ is the head of the body of which we are (and he is together w/ us )
4. And the groom in a union where we make up the bride – and what God has joined together let no man put asunder -(and he has put us together)
5. Furthermore, If Jesus says we are one in him and the scriptures say that we are hid WITH Christ IN God, (and by the grace of God we are),
6. If HE called them Gods to whom the word of the Lord came, and the scripture cannot be broken…. and on that basis Jesus could make a statement about being the Son of God…

Why do you exclude us in this so-called Three-persons-in-one God? How can Jesus' be a Trinity and his body not be if I am understanding you correctly?

October 27, 2006 at 11:40 pm#31356

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 27 2006,23:49)

Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 27 2006,09:53)

Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 27 2006,03:29)

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

John 14:26 is interesting. It kinda sums up that the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son, but is a “whom” being recognised by Jesus as an identity.

Time to give up Nick and t8 and all you others who don't believe.

Hi Oxy,

Remember that by your definition, he has to be another personality and #3.

Hi Cubes.. thanks for your response. Probably the easiest way to see God is to have a look at ourselves, after all, we are made in His image!

We are three in one, body soul and spirit, but is any part of us less than any other?

Our soul is our identity, our will, our choices.
Our spirit includes our conscience, “gut feeling” instinct etc.
Our body will one day die and return to dust and we will receive a new one (can't wait for that! lol).

We make choices every day based on our body's needs and the guidence of our spirit, so our identity is the “head” of us.

Why is it then so hard to see God in a similar light, not exactly the same as us obviously, but, being created in His image, we are three in one.

The Father is the ultimate authority, but has handed authority over to His Son until the appointed time.

The Father sent the Holy Spirit according to Scripture. If the Holy Spirit was the Father, wouldn't Scripture simply say the Father came to us?

October 28, 2006 at 12:23 am#31358

Proclaimer

Participant

Let me get something straight.

There is a Father, Son, and there is a Spirit. But that doesn't prove the Trinity doctrine that they are all the One Almighty.

The Trinity doctrine is not about proving that there is a God, Son, and Spirit. It is the way that the 3 are bundled together in a package called God (Almighty).

Trinitarians seem to think that mere mention of the 3 proves the Trinity and they blindly swallow the other stuff that 3 are one and 1 are 3, all are equal, eternal, One God.

Here are some scriptures that mention God, the Lord, Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 mentions the Spirit, Lord, and God;
2 Corinthians 13:14 lists Christ, God, and the Holy Ghost [Spirit];
Galatians 4:4-6 lists God, Son, and Spirit of his Son;
Ephesians 4:4-6 lists Spirit, Lord and, God; &
1 Peter 1:2 lists God, Spirit, and Jesus Christ.
But notice how the above say there is God, Son, Spirit. Well think about that for a moment. God is already identified here and Christ is identified as another. Why do we need to add to that. Adding to the understanding that is being presented here, only confuses and dilutes the wonderful truth that there is one God, the Father.
But on the subject of 3s, scripture also mentions other 3s together in other sentences.
1 Timothy 5:21
“I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.”
So should we conclude that this is also a different trinity? A Trinity that includes the Angels as one part of a trinity?
Of course not. We don't need a formula to explain this. It plainly says God, Jesus, Angels. Yet even in this trinity, Jesus is seperately identified as being different to God.
Or what about Luke 9:28
About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray.
Are we to conclude that Peter, John, and James are a human trinity? Should be have a council and decide upon a formula that explains this mysterious human trinity?
Of course not. The scripture is simple and clear and we can read it at face value.
But how many read the following scriptures at face value?
I am convinced from what I have seen here over the years that die-hard Trinitarians are incapable of understanding the following verses. Of course this is but the tip of the iceberg. There are hundreds that they cannot understand or explain.
These scriptures rest the case, the Trinity is false doctrine.
If you need more, I can gladly supply 100 now as a good will installment and then make payments of 50 scriptures every week. But surely the scriptures below should be enough. Why? Because they are scripture.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
John 20:17
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.
Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

October 28, 2006 at 1:50 am#31360

942767

Participant

Hi Oxy:

“And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit” (life-giving). (1 Co. 15:45)

The first Adam was a living soul or person like God in that God is also a living person. The last Adam (Jesus) is like God in that he is a living person and also in that his spirit or personality is the express image of God's person. (Hebrew 1:3) God and Jesus are two distinct living souls or persons with the same personality.

Hebrews 5:8-9 states of Jesus: “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things that he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all who obey him:”.

Before we were born again, we were dead (spiritually separated) from God. We did not have a personal relationship with God. Perhaps, we did not believe that God exists.

When we were born again, God became the Father of our spirit. We become like Jesus and therefore like God as we learn to obey the commandments that came from God through Jesus. Our spirit or personality is formed as we learn to obey the Word of God.

God's throne is in heaven, but His personal presence is with us through the indwelling of his Spirit.

“But as it is written, eye hat not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered inot the heart of man, the things which God hat prepared for them that love him. But God has revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the thing of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God”. (1 Co. 2:9-10)

There is but one God (Ephesians 4:6), and Jesus is His only begotten Son and His Christ (Matt. 16:13-17). They are two different persons. God's Spirit or personality is revealed to humanity through the life of Jesus. Therefore Jesus said, “He who hath seen me hath seen the Father”. (John 14:9)

I hope this helps.

October 28, 2006 at 1:58 am#31362

Participant

Hi 942767

Thanks for that, but I didn't really need it. After a quick read you seem to be saying the same as what I believe to be true.

October 30, 2006 at 3:00 am#31378

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2006,15:26)

Hi W,
The Spirit wrote the scriptures through men and is the Source of truth. As you know there is no “God the Spirit” in scripture but that is a human fabrication. The Spirit is the “finger of God” enjoined always with God and doing the work of God among men.

That Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and shared among those in Christ as the Spirit of Christ, gives them understanding of what is written. He also reveals to them the future from what is written too as “the testimony of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy”.

Until men are reborn from above of the Spirit they cannot see the kingdom and are prey to the rebellious and antichrist religious doctrines of this world which are spawned by the god of this world to deceive them.

————–
Test all things. Hold fast to what is good [/QUOTE]

So Nick is God a Spirit?

Hi W,
Yes.
And what is a spirit being?
Does a spirit being have soul and spirit?

October 30, 2006 at 3:05 am#31379

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2006,15:36)

Quote

Are you saying that we should replace our belief that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ and replace that with a triune God?

T8 If you have been reading my post you would no what I belive, But I am saying that you should believe all the scriptures and stop trying to twist those that dont fit your belief ! If you have noticed the Trinitarians do not deny any of the scriptures that You quote to support your belief in the Father And the Son and the Holy Spirit!

But you want to ignore the ones we bring into question or explain them away!

Hi W,
Trinity, according to it's proponents, is based on inescapeable conclusions, on obvious inferences and simple logical deductions from scripture.

But it is not based on fact.

Facts come from the mouth of God's servant teachers and it is never found there.

So it must be discarded as false.

October 30, 2006 at 3:06 am#31380

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2006,20:13)

Quote

Nick!

So The Spirit of God is the “finger of God”?

Does your finger have ears?
Does your finger have a mind?
Does your finger have a mouth to speak?

Luke 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
[18] If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? Because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
[19] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore shall they be your judges.
[20] But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Mt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, this fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
[25] And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
[26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
[27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
[28] But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luke used the word daktulos {dak'-too-los} which means, the finger or power of God!

Mathew used the word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} which means, a movement of air (a gentle blast)
of the wind, hence the wind itself, breathe of nostrils or mouth.
To simply say the Spirit of God is the “finger of God” and that this is the nature of the Spirit of God in relation to God is to limit the Spirit of God to Just a breath of the power of God!
Obviously it is a question of the measure of the Spirit of God used here!
“if I by the Spirit of God” “if I by the finger of God” The finger of God here is a metaphor of the measure of the Spirit used to cast out devils! The finger of God is not a literal description of the nature of the Holy Spirit!
Jn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jesus received this same Spirit in bodily form without measure, all the fullness.
But if we were to say that the Spirit is literally the “finger of God”, then where is his Body, his hands, his feet, his head?
1 Cor. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
[15] If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[16] And if the ear shall say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[17] If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
[18] But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
[19] And if they were all one member, where were the body?
[20] But now are they many members, yet but one body.
[21] And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
[22] Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
[23] And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
The Hebrew word for finger is 'etsba` (ets-bah' ) which means: finger, toe.
Exd 8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger,( etsba ) of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exd 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger (etsba), of God.
Ps 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers (etsba), the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained…

Lk 11:20 But if I with the finger (pneuma), of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Did they actually see the Finger of God? They saw a measure of the power of God manifested through the work of his Spirit!

Hi W,
Are you one with your finger?

October 30, 2006 at 3:14 am#31381

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 26 2006,04:56)

Quote

Hi WJ,

1. On John 1:1, you'll have to prove that there is one BEING, to make your conclusion that Jesus is the Father.
By Hebrews 1:8-9, we know that there are two beings – i.e. two Gods with the greater one anointing the other. My point here is to just indicate two beings, which you consider to be two persons in one being.

Furthermore, how do you come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Father? Is 9:6 perhaps? If yes, then, how do you explain that you have two DISTINCT PERSONS in the so-called Trinity having the same roles, that is if you take Is 9:6 to mean that Jesus is our heavenly Father, which I do not as we've already been told he is the second Adam and subsequently the one whom God has appointed by whom we have eternal life. Additionally, we also have the scriptures that tell us that the life that Jesus has was given him by the Father. This is Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever.

So John 1:1 may speak exclusively of the Father (according to some), in which case the son is not there, or it speaks -as Trinitarians hold – of the Father and his Son (and I agree). But what it is not, is that the Father and son are somehow the same person. That is outrightly refuted by all scriptures that speak of the two of them.

Not to mention that a while back, we also talked about the fact that if the Word is a TRINITY BEING indeed, then at some point, the invisible creator of the universe became his own creation. This is a foreign concept to the Judeo-christian scriptures. On top of all that, he has been seen and touched and even crucified at the hands of humans. This is also a different doctrine which is contrary to our scriptures.

So then, Father can only be applied to the Father of all, who is also the God of all… and even so often specified by Jesus and his apostles and all the prophets to be the Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's John 1:1.

Obviously, sometimes the word “God/god” applies to humans and demons too, so I am not going to include those scriptures but would focus on the ones concerning the True God of Creation, if that's fine with you.

————–
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.

Mat 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Man I guess I am not very good at explaining!

Thats my whole point cubes!

I am not saying that the father is Jesus. I am simply saying that to change the word God to Father as T8 has suggested, is a weak argument against the trinity! Read the post again including T8.

Sorry I have not communicated this very well.

But I believe like you do that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son and the Spirit who is the Comforter
is one!

Hi W,
If God is a trinity then which person according to the bible is the Father of Jesus Christ?

Mt 1.20

“20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”

October 30, 2006 at 3:19 am#31382