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Quote 1 Corinthians 8:5-6:
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”I am not interested in what it does not mean. I am very interested in what positive doctrinal statement you think Paul is making here.
Hi What is True!
1 Corinthians 8:5-6:
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”No contradiction of the trinity here! Paul explains it very well! He continues to explain it to the Colosians…
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
[20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col. 2:8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:1. He has a Kingdom
2. He forgives our sins
2. He is the image of the invisible God
4. He is the Firstborn of every creature
5. He created the Heavens and the earth
6 He created the visible and the invisible
7. He created thrones, dominions, principalities and powers
8. All things were by Him and for Him
9. He is before all things, By Him ALL THINGS CONSIST
10. He is the Head of the Body the Church
11. He is the firstborn from the dead
12. He has the preeminence
13 He has the fulness of the Godhead in him bodily
Ask the average unsaved person to read the above and tell you who it is speaking of, I think they would say God.
But if you insist on making Jesus less than the above, of whom the Father God says he Placed all that he is in Him! More power to you brothers! I choose to
Exalt Jesus to the very highest possible place in my heart, in so doing I am following my Fathers example of how He has exalted the Son!
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
[10] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Jesus has a Name above his own Fathers, Imagine that!
Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Jesus is the Word made flesh, who was with God and who was God. The Father has exalted Jesus the Word above his own Name.
How could Jesus be less than Deity? Father, Son and Holy Spirit, these 3 are one! You believe that they are ONE also dont you?
But of course heres where we part they are not all deity!Quote Satan has actually tricked many into turning Jesus into an idol. God sent His Son into the world so that we could be reconciled back to the Father, yet many stop at the Son. This was not Yahweh's purpose. Even Jesus said He was the way,truth, and the life, and that no one came TO GOD, but THROUGH HIM. Why do we talk so much of Jesus! Because there is no other name under heaven given among me whereby we must be saved! If you are looking somewhere else my friend then you are a thief and a robber. You say we turn Jesus into an Idol.
Yet the Father has spoken through the Holy Ghost that He is the Express Image Of God.The Image of the invisible God! Thomas saw it and said my Lord and my God! I suppose he was committing Idolotry according to you, yet Jesus did not discourage him. Father God has commanded the angels to worship him, so why do you condemn someone for worshipping Jesus and belittling the Son by calling him an Idol!Shalom
Quote Posted: Oct. 26 2006,06:41 ——————————————————————————–
Hi WorshippingJesus,Quote
Show me David where Jesus was worshipped that he discouraged it and pointed to the Father.That's my point. We can't be sure that Jesus was ever worshipped in scripture. The word used with reference to him is “proskyneo.”
That word, my friend, has a variety of meanings, one of which is “to worship,” others of which are “to do obeisance,” or “bow down,” or “show great respect.”Quote
So when Jesus was being worshipped by man why didn’t he quote the same scripture that he quoted to satan as you have pointed out? Same Greek word!Yes, same greek word. Obviously a different meaning, based on the fact that Jesus pointed to the Father as being the only one who should receive worship. We know Jesus wasn't talking about simply showing respect to God or anything like that. Because, obviously that definition applies to more in the Bible than just God. So, when Jesus said to worship the Father or that he alone was deserving of sacred service, he truly meant worship.
But, when that word “proskyneo” is applied to Jesus, (even though it's in your Bible) you may want to question it, or at least realize that the original Greek word and it's Hebrew equivalent had more than one meaning.This becomes circular reasoning.
Here's how it works:
–Jesus is part of the trinity and is Almighty God.
–Therefore, Jesus should be worshipped.
–So, when we come across “proskyneo” with reference to him, we translate it “worship.
–Since Jesus is worshipped, he must be God.I prefer, instead of starting with a belief that strongly resembles paganism and forcing words such as “proskyneo” to fit into that belief that took hundreds of years to be formed….I prefer to look at what Jesus said and reason on it.
Jesus said that “proskyneo” should be applied to his Father. Obviously, he wasn't speaking of just deeply respecting the Father. When Jesus spoke of this word and said it should be applied to God Almighty, it was obviously in reference to worship.
The ones who translated your Bible–they weren't just acquainted with the trinity belief. They believed Jesus is a trinity. Less and less Bible's use “worship” in those places in reference to Jesus, but the bias is still there.“Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of Gr. pro•sky•ne′o or, in the Deuteronomy account that Jesus was quoting, Heb. hish•ta•chawah′], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service [form of Gr. la•treu′o or Heb. ‛a•vadh′].’” (Mt 4:10; De 5:9; 6:13)
Quote
Was Jesus worshipped and did he discourage it?
Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mt. 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live
.Mt14:13 When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities.
Jn. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.I don't think you hear what I'm saying. The word that is translated worship in these verses above was chosen by the ones who translated your Bible. It could just as easily have been translated as “obeisance,” which is to show a very deep respect and honor.
You're saying “look at what my Bible says” means very little if you don't understand what the orginial Greek word means.Quote
Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve! So apparently Jesus was a sinner for receiving worship and not telling them to worship God and not Him?So either Jesus was a sinner, or he wasn't actually being worshipped. You're right.
There is no contradiction here, when we realize that proskyneo has a variety of meanings. Everything you say seems to argue it from the point that your Bible contains the word “worship” in those places. Look to the Greek. Understand that those who tranlsated your Bible without question believed in the trinity and when given the option to translate that word “obeisance” or “worship” it wasn't a tough decision for them, but it was a biased one.Quote
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.If that proves it, I guess this disproves it:
HEBREWS 1:6
“But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.””Quote
I suppose you can choose to interpret the word worship as you please to fit your doctrine!I guess some who like to worshipJesus would know that someone could do that. But I prefer to look at what Jesus said, as opposed to which word biased translators decided to go with the translation.
david
Oh I see David so as long as you translate the same Greek word to fit your belief as a unitarian then that makes it right!
If Jesus knew that the word meant different things, which Im quite sure that he did, then why would he not use another greek word for the worship of the Father?
Better yet why wouldnt he explain at least once where men practiced this word toward him that they should worship God Only?
1 CORINTHIANS 15:27-28
“For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”Notice that these things, all things were made subject to Jesus. But, with one obvious exception–the one who put all these things under Jesus feet–God Almighty. Notice too that the Son is subject to the Father.
You state many things: Jesus has a kingdom. This is true. What you fail to state is that Jehovah appointed him head of that kingdom. Jehovah is king of eternity.
Notice the verse above the verses I've quoted:
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”
This kingdom will eventually be handed back to his father.DANIEL 7:13, 14:
“With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ; see Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.”
This rulership was “given” to Jesus. It was given to him by someone who had the authority to give it: God Almighty.You say: “he has a kingdom.”
You say many things.
The point is, many of the things you say are exactly like what you say of the kingdom that WAS GIVEN TO HIM.david
Quote Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. If that proves it, I guess this disproves it:
HEBREWS 1:6
“But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.””Quote
I suppose you can choose to interpret the word worship as you please to fit your doctrine!I guess some who like to worshipJesus would know that someone could do that. But I prefer to look at what Jesus said, as opposed to which word biased translators decided to go with the translation.
Hey David how about accepting what God the Father says!!
Quote If Jesus knew that the word meant different things, which Im quite sure that he did, then why would he not use another greek word for the worship of the Father? He used that word that can and does mean worship, but what you ignore is that it can and does mean a lot of other things as well.
Which word would he have used?
Quote Better yet why wouldnt he explain at least once where men practiced this word toward him that they should worship God Only?
Perhaps because…they weren't “worshipping” him. As I've said, that word has a variety of meanings. There was no need to correct them because they weren't doing anything wrong. The writer of those scriptures knew that that word can be used in different ways.david
Quote Oh I see David so as long as you translate the same Greek word to fit your belief as a unitarian then that makes it right! No, W, as long as it fits the context of the Bible as a whole.
Quote Hey David how about accepting what God the Father says!! I do. I just think something is lost in the translation.
That's why it's good to not just accept how Bible translators choose to translate certain words. Bible translators are imperfect and not inspired. They can fall to bias.
Looking at certain verses where they've inserted “worship” with reference to Jesus, it is beyond any shadow of a doubt that anyone on the planet could realistically say that the word “worship” has any right at all being there:
MARK 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or did “obeisance to him,” or something similar. Clearly, they were not spitting on him and at the same time worshiping him. The verse before (Mark 15:18) and Matthew 27:29 make clear that they “made fun” of him. It was in a mocking way that they did “obeisance to him,” bowing to him. They were not worshiping him and the context certainly doesn’t allow proskynéo to be translated as “worship” here.
CLEARLY, IT SHOULD NOT ALWAYS BE TRANSLATED AS “WORSHIP.”david
Quote 1 CORINTHIANS 15:27-28
“For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”Notice that these things, all things were made subject to Jesus. But, with one obvious exception–the one who put all these things under Jesus feet–God Almighty. Notice too that the Son is subject to the Father.
You state many things: Jesus has a kingdom. This is true. What you fail to state is that Jehovah appointed him head of that kingdom. Jehovah is king of eternity.
Notice the verse above the verses I've quoted:
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”This kingdom will eventually be handed back to his father.
DANIEL 7:13, 14:
“With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ; see Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.”This rulership was “given” to Jesus. It was given to him by someone who had the authority to give it: God Almighty.
You say: “he has a kingdom.”
You say many things.
The point is, many of the things you say are exactly like what you say of the kingdom that WAS GIVEN TO HIM.Amen David you speak the truth! All things were given to Him since all things were created by him and for him! But shall God the Father some day take back all things? Thats not what my Bible says!
27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.But not all things are under him yet, 25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
So it will still be his but subject to the Father. All things were made by him and for him!Untill all things are under Him Jesus, It behooves us to honor him who the Father has given all things!
In Honoring him we honor the Father, Jehovah!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 25 2006,15:59) Greetings Is 1:18 and Adam Pastor! Interesting debate you are having here. I am sure you won't be surprised, Is 1:18, but I side with Adam Pastor on this one.
You don't say!!
Quote To illustrate further, I will take one of Adam Pastor's law of agency examples and do exactly what you have done. Behold: In Exodus 7:17 we read:
Thus saith YHWH, In this thou shalt know that I am YHWH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.Who will smite the waters?
Whose hand is the rod in?Then in Exodus 7:19-20 we read:
And YHWH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as YHWH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.Who literally smote the waters?
Who literally had the rod in his hand?
There is a key difference between the two passages:“And YHWH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as YHWH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.”
Moses and Aaron indeed were the agents of YHWH's act – YET they are still denoted: MOSES and AARON. They were not ascribed the tetragammatron on account of their roles as agent. Moreover, in the above passage the agents themselves are blatantly distinguished from actual source of the act.
“And Moses and Aaron did so, as YHWH commanded; “
In contrast, no such distinction is evident in Zechariah 14, and Yahshua IS indeed explicitly ascribed the tertragammaton YHWH, multiple times. Therein lies the difference between the two passages (and its a hugely significant one!), and that is the reason Adam Pastor was asked to supply scripture in which other human agents are explicitly designated this way. This would have given his theory some real weight….
Quote By your own methods, we would have to conclude that Aaron is “explicitly” called YHWH in the passage above.
Incorrect. If Moses and Aaron were referred to as YHWH as a function of their agency, you would have a good point here….Quote Do you see why your statement that “Yeshua is explicitly called YHWH” does not really amount to such?
No, because He plainly is! It couldn't be clearer….Quote I know that you will hold to that theory for other reasons, but can you see that your evidence is weak at least in this case?
No, not really. But I hope by now you both can see what I was driving at…Quote By the way, a while back, I asked if you could tell me what 1 Corinthians 8:6 actually means. You have already told me, (and others), what you think it does not mean, (i.e. “kurios” is not a weaker appellative…). I am curious to know what you think Paul was trying to teach us in that one verse – what positive doctrinal statement was he making. Could you repost your response here?
1 CORINTHIANS 8:1-6
1Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 4Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.It seems the main thrust of Paul’s message was the correct Corinthian Christian's response to the pagan practice of sacrificing food to idols before consuming it (v1, 4). He overtly distinguishes the true God from the “so-called” (false) ones. While affirming the true Creator God, he also distinguishes the persons of the Father (“from whom are all things and we exist for Him”) and the Son (“by whom are all things, and we exist through Him”), alluding to their distinctive roles involving their creation. Since both members were involved in the creation of all things, the eating of meat sacrificed to idols is deemed by Paul acceptable for the Corinthians, for everything created by God is good (1 Timothy 4:4).
And yes, if you're postulating that Paul was in fact drawing an ontological contra-distinction between the Father and Son by assigning to them what you consider to be 'disparate appelatives', i.e the Father is exclusively 'theos' and the Son is exclusively 'kurios', then I do think this raises some interesting questions for you….
Also, This, I think, is an interesting perspective of the verse….
Anyway, hope i've answered your question….although probably not to your satisfaction, right?…ah well….
Blessings
Is 1:18BTW, as I recall in our discussion on John 2:28 some months ba
ck I asked you to explain what in the context of the passage makes plain that Thomas' exclamation was a dual one, i.e. one part being directed at Yahshua (“My Lord”) and another to the Father (“my God”). I don't think you answered this question WIT. What are your thoughts?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 26 2006,10:13) Quote Hi WJ, 1. On John 1:1, you'll have to prove that there is one BEING, to make your conclusion that Jesus is the Father.
By Hebrews 1:8-9, we know that there are two beings – i.e. two Gods with the greater one anointing the other. My point here is to just indicate two beings, which you consider to be two persons in one being.Cube, So what about the Lord our God is One! Or thou shalt worship the Lord thy Go and him only shalt thou serve. Or you cant serve two master!
How can there be 2 Gods? Seems to me that is more confusing!
Hi WJ,What I have found is that it is hard to overcome the concept of the Trinity unless one is willing to: 1) be brutally honest with oneself and follow the evidence 2) give the doctrine no room to hide or escape 3) You have to be willing to see the scriptures through the eyes of Jesus, the prophets, apostles and all who are mentioned in the bible 4) have confidence in God and in the integrity of his word as being true. He backs up the truth in his word. The trinity on the other hand is on a malformed and cracked foundation because it is not backed up.
The questions which you have asked are readily, consistently and unanimously answered through the scriptures.
God is one indeed. Jesus, Moses and the rest of the prophets, John the baptist and his father, the apostles, the pharisees, sadducees, the common people such as the woman at the well, satan… all believed God to be the Creator of heaven and earth, the God of the Hebrews and Father to the children of Israel.
None thought that Jesus was God Almighty.
Many of these people believed Jesus Christ to be the servant of God, Messiah and Son of God who was spoken of by the prophets. Of course, some refused these testimonies that he was THE SON OF GOD and promised Messiah. It is very important to realize that this was the claim he made concerning himself, never that he is GOD Almighty. Caiaphas tore his robe and handed him over to be crucified because he said he is the Son of God, and not because he said he is Almighty God. I feel this point is very important. It is consistent with all scripture.God is one and he is the Father, according to Jesus. Please see Mark 12 in its entirety. The same concept is told in different ways but also stated explicitly through the conversation here which Jesus has with this scribe: Would you be like this scribe and have Jesus say approvingly of you that you are not far from the kingdom of God. Or would you be farther from the gates of the kingdom because you do not even yet know who God is?
Mark 12:28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, *perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?”
29 Jesus answered him, “The *first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' *This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'* There is no other commandment greater than these.”
32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, *with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”
But after that no one dared question Him.
In verses 29 and 32, did you get the impression Jesus is the God being spoken of? Here is where you have to be honest with yourself and answer the hard questions. The answer here, would be true, IF it is consistent with the prior teachings of the prophets and what is written. Also note that the one who questioned Jesus is a Scribe, so someone who also knows the scriptures. Mutually, both he and Jesus affirm the truth and do not misunderstand or oppose each other in the truth that a) God is one and b) he is not the scribe and he is not Jesus. They both speak of “Him.”Many more scriptures like these with ambiguous ones that can be counted on one hand which Trinitarians use, based on their ambiguity, to attempt to establish the TD. But even those are refutable as to leave us with the confidence that the Father alone is the True God of whom Jesus speaks.
You said:
Quote Or thou shalt worship the Lord thy Go and him only shalt thou serve. Jesus asked us to worship and serve only the Father. This is seen through his dialogue with Satan during his temptation, and with his conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4), and throughout his teachings, such as Mark 12.
In the meantime, we give honor to whom honor is due, and the God whom we worship and serve has commanded us to honor his son and listen to whatever he tells us (as it is he who sent him and he has been proven to love righteousness and hate iniquity, and to delight in doing the will of the Father as is written of him in the volume of the books). So we do, because it is the Father's authority we submit to when we do his will in whatever we are told to do.You said:
Quote Or you cant serve two master!
We do not serve two masters. Jesus' is also submitted to his God and Father so he asks nothing of us that is in conflict with our Father's will, therefore it is the Father's will that is carried out when we serve Jesus. He's the boss the Founder put in charge of his affairs, as all the scriptures testify.OK, Is 1:18, we haven't done this dance in a little while, so I'll go 'round the circle one more time with you.
Honestly, I don't get the distinction you are making. Let me try to simplify this as much as possible.
Case 1:
Quote
Prophecy:
“Thus saith YHWH, In this thou shalt know that I am YHWH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood, (Exodus 7:17).”Agency Identified:
“And YHWH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt…, (Exodus 7:19).”Prophecy Fulfillment:
” And Moses and Aaron did so, as YHWH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river…, (Exodus 7:20).”
Case 2:Quote
Prophecy:
“And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and YHWH my God shall come, and all the saints with thee, (Zechariah 14:5).”Agency Identified:
“To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints, (1 Thessalonians 3:13).”(As an aside, is the “his” in the verse referring to “God…our Father” or “Lord Jesus Christ”?)
Prophecy Fulfillment:
TBDWhere's the difference?
You wrote:
Quote 1 CORINTHIANS 8:1-6
1Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 4Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.It seems the main thrust of Paul’s message was the correct Corinthian Christian's response to the pagan practice of sacrificing food to idols before consuming it (v1, 4). He overtly distinguishes the true God from the “so-called” (false) ones. While affirming the true Creator God, he also distinguishes the persons of the Father (“from whom are all things and we exist for Him”) and the Son (“by whom are all things, and we exist through Him”), alluding to their distinctive roles involving their creation. Since both members were involved in the creation of all things, the eating of meat sacrificed to idols is deemed by Paul acceptable for the Corinthians, for everything created by God is good (1 Timothy 4:4).
And yes, if you're postulating that Paul was in fact drawing an ontological contra-distinction between the Father and Son by assigning to them what you consider to be 'disparate appelatives', i.e the Father is exclusively 'theos' and the Son is exclusively 'kurios', then I do think this raises some interesting questions for you….
Thanks for your response. Just one further question:
What distinction do you think Paul is making when he refers to the Father as the one God and Yeshua as the one Lord? Is it just a random choice of words?
You wrote:
Quote BTW, as I recall in our discussion on John 2:28 some months back I asked you to explain what in the context of the passage makes plain that Thomas' exclamation was a dual one, i.e. one part being directed at Yahshua (“My Lord”) and another to the Father (“my God”). I don't think you answered this question WIT. What are your thoughts? I don't think that there is anything in the immediate textual context of the John 20:28 passage that indicates a dual address. However, I do think that the cultural context of Thomas' statement casts a great shadow of doubt that he was identifying Yeshua as “God, the second person of the Trinity”.
Thomas as a 1st century Jew was familiar with the Hebrew scriptures and Hebrew thinking, which, as Adam Pastor demonstrated in his post about “agency”, can be very different from modern day thinking. For example, he was clearly aware that “lord” was the proper appellation for YHWH's annointed one, (i.e. the king).
Quote
Look, this day your eyes have seen that [YHWH] delivered you today into my hand in the cave, and someone urged me to kill you. But my eye spared you, and I[David] said, ‘I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is YHWH’s anointed, (1 Samuel 24:10).’Then Saul knew David’s voice, and said, “Is that your voice, my son David?” David said, “It is my voice, my lord, O king, (1 Samuel 26:17).”
And he was also aware that judges in Israel, who were supposed to represent YHWH, were called by the same Hebrew word for “god”, elohim.
Quote So he shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God, (Exodus 4:16). You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High, (Psalm 82:6).
Accordingly, Yeshua was both Thomas' lord, (i.e. the king, YHWH's annointed), and his god, (i.e. the divinely appointed judge over Israel). But, ultimately, any recognition of Yeshua as the divinely appointed judge of Israel was a recognition of YHWH himself as the Judge of all.
Quote Hi WJ, What I have found is that it is hard to overcome the concept of the Trinity unless one is willing to: 1) be brutally honest with oneself and follow the evidence 2) give the doctrine no room to hide or escape 3) You have to be willing to see the scriptures through the eyes of Jesus, the prophets, apostles and all who are mentioned in the bible 4) have confidence in God and in the integrity of his word as being true. He backs up the truth in his word. The trinity on the other hand is on a malformed and cracked foundation because it is not backed up.
Hey Cubes!
Without explaining Myself over and over again! Please go to my post and find one thing that I have said that is unscriptural or sound doctrine, and then send me proof that I am wrong! Plz dont send anything that is obviosly open for personal interpretation!
Blessings
Quote Hi WJ, What I have found is that it is hard to overcome the concept of the Trinity unless one is willing to: 1) be brutally honest with oneself and follow the evidence 2) give the doctrine no room to hide or escape 3) You have to be willing to see the scriptures through the eyes of Jesus, the prophets, apostles and all who are mentioned in the bible 4) have confidence in God and in the integrity of his word as being true. He backs up the truth in his word. The trinity on the other hand is on a malformed and cracked foundation because it is not backed up.
And by the way I see no mention of the Holy Spirit who will guide us and lead us into all truth! Jesus said it is given to you to know the mysterys of the Kindom! That which we know and hear comes by revelation given to us by the Spirit of God the Father!
Quote God is one indeed. Jesus, Moses and the rest of the prophets, John the baptist and his father, the apostles, the pharisees, sadducees, the common people such as the woman at the well, satan… all believed God to be the Creator of heaven and earth, the God of the Hebrews and Father to the children of Israel.
None thought that Jesus was God Almighty.Amen! when have I said anything different?
Quote Many of these people believed Jesus Christ to be the servant of God, Messiah and Son of God who was spoken of by the prophets. Of course, some refused these testimonies that he was THE SON OF GOD and promised Messiah. It is very important to realize that this was the claim he made concerning himself, never that he is GOD Almighty. Caiaphas tore his robe and handed him over to be crucified because he said he is the Son of God, and not because he said he is Almighty God. I feel this point is very important. It is consistent with all scripture. We have to part here. Jesus Being the Son of God, the Only Begotten Son the Word that was with God,and the Word that was God, Jn 1:1]That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
[4] And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.Jesus is one with the Father in everyway Including deity. One God in three persons! three persons in One God! Sorry that that dosnt agree with you, but that is what is revealed in the Scriptures!
Jesus said that He and the Father are one. The Father is just that, the Father. He is the instigator, decision maker and the ultimate authority.
The Father has given Jesus a name that is above every name. He is Saviour, the Door to the Father.
Jesus went to be with the Father so that the Holy Spirit could be sent. He (the Holy Spirit) has been sent to teach us and guide us into all truth, amongst His other roles of Comforter etc.
I worship the Father, praise Jesus and adhere to the Holy Spirit. This is my God.
Quote Jesus said that He and the Father are one. The Father is just that, the Father. He is the instigator, decision maker and the ultimate authority. The Father has given Jesus a name that is above every name. He is Saviour, the Door to the Father.
Jesus went to be with the Father so that the Holy Spirit could be sent. He (the Holy Spirit) has been sent to teach us and guide us into all truth, amongst His other roles of Comforter etc.
I worship the Father, praise Jesus and adhere to the Holy Spirit. This is my God.
Amen! Oxy.:D
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 27 2006,01:36) Quote Hi WJ, What I have found is that it is hard to overcome the concept of the Trinity unless one is willing to: 1) be brutally honest with oneself and follow the evidence 2) give the doctrine no room to hide or escape 3) You have to be willing to see the scriptures through the eyes of Jesus, the prophets, apostles and all who are mentioned in the bible 4) have confidence in God and in the integrity of his word as being true. He backs up the truth in his word. The trinity on the other hand is on a malformed and cracked foundation because it is not backed up.
Hey Cubes!
Without explaining Myself over and over again! Please go to my post and find one thing that I have said that is unscriptural or sound doctrine, and then send me proof that I am wrong! Plz dont send anything that is obviosly open for personal interpretation!
Blessings
WJ,I didn't intend to say that you've said anything unsound or unscriptural, aside from what seemed to be your defense of the Trinity. I was speaking in general terms regarding the Trinity Doctrine in hope that you might relate to it if knowing and worshipping the True God is your quest.
I joined the conversation yesterday from where we started off so I am not aware of what has transpired before so am not challenging anything you've said, except that I obviously believe the Trinity to be erroneous and false judging by the scriptures.
Your post from 9.27.06:
Quote And by the way I see no mention of the Holy Spirit who will guide us and lead us into all truth! Jesus said it is given to you to know the mysterys of the Kindom! That which we know and hear comes by revelation given to us by the Spirit of God the Father! - Psalm 119:9 How can a young man keep his way pure?
By living according to your word.
- Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Yes, you are right. However, I am sure you would agree that most of what the Holy spirit would teach us or bear witness of is already written in the scriptures, being the will of God concerning us, and the spirit being in agreement with the holy scriptures.
I hope to respond to your last post in a day or so.
Kind Regards
Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
- Psalm 119:9 How can a young man keep his way pure?
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