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Concerning Zechariah 14 …
I see that one thinks my simply copying & pasting what one has already not to long ago posted, will make their point valid; well … the saying goes if one repeats an untruth again & again, in time, people will believe it!!
Nevertheless, it is still an untruth!Repeating myself is not my style … so I will not copy and paste an entire previous post …
I will simply say to those who have ears to hear …
Zechariah is speaking about YHWH, the only true GOD, the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob; and now,
the GOD and Father of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah …The prophecies in Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled …
YHWH will fulfill the word that He gave His prophet Zechariah through & via His agent, His Son,
the Messiah Yeshua.For those who would like more info on the Jewish law of agency;
on the relationship between the ONE GOD YHWH [the Principal] and His Messiah [the Agent];
I recommend this article:
http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/79.htm#1Nuff said! Adieu for now!
Hi W,
The Spirit wrote the scriptures through men and is the Source of truth. As you know there is no “God the Spirit” in scripture but that is a human fabrication. The Spirit is the “finger of God” enjoined always with God and doing the work of God among men.That Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and shared among those in Christ as the Spirit of Christ, gives them understanding of what is written. He also reveals to them the future from what is written too as “the testimony of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy”.
Until men are reborn from above of the Spirit they cannot see the kingdom and are prey to the rebellious and antichrist religious doctrines of this world which are spawned by the god of this world to deceive them.
————–
Test all things. Hold fast to what is good [/QUOTE]So Nick is God a Spirit?
Quote Are you saying that we should replace our belief that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ and replace that with a triune God? T8 If you have been reading my post you would no what I belive, But I am saying that you should believe all the scriptures and stop trying to twist those that dont fit your belief ! If you have noticed the Trinitarians do not deny any of the scriptures that You quote to support your belief in the Father And the Son and the Holy Spirit!
But you want to ignore the ones we bring into question or explain them away!
Quote Why would you want us to do that?
Because you have?Wouldn't it be better for us to stick with what scripture says than follow the creeds of men?
We believe that Jesus came in the flesh. We believe that Jesus is and was the Logos that was and is with God.
Trinitarians believe that God came in the flesh, that God died, and that God took the sins of the world upon him.
And you want us to replace scripture with your teachings and beliefs? Are you crazy?
Trinitarians believe that God is our Savior! How about you t8?
Greetings Is 1:18 and Adam Pastor!
Interesting debate you are having here. I am sure you won't be surprised, Is 1:18, but I side with Adam Pastor on this one. What amazes me though is that you, Is 1:18, seem to be a bit blinded to the shortcomings of your position, despite a couple of people pointing it out to you. Against my better judgment, I will try to make it a bit clearer.
You keep asking Adam Pastor for explicit statements where a human, or angelic, agent is called “YHWH”. Yet, what you put forth as explicit statements of Yeshua being called YHWH are most certainly not!
Here is Webster's definition of explicit:
Quote 1 a:fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity : leaving no question as to meaning or intent In other words, an explicit statement requires no inferences or implications. And if we look at your post where you propose to show that Yashua is explicitly called YHWH, we see nothing but a well put together attempt to draw inferences and deduce implications from several related passages. There is not one explicit statement such as: “Yeshua is YHWH“.
To illustrate further, I will take one of Adam Pastor's law of agency examples and do exactly what you have done. Behold:
Quote In Exodus 7:17 we read:
Thus saith YHWH, In this thou shalt know that I am YHWH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.Who will smite the waters?
Whose hand is the rod in?Then in Exodus 7:19-20 we read:
And YHWH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as YHWH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.Who literally smote the waters?
Who literally had the rod in his hand?By your own methods, we would have to conclude that Aaron is “explicitly” called YHWH in the passage above.
Do you see why your statement that “Yeshua is explicitly called YHWH” does not really amount to such? I know that you will hold to that theory for other reasons, but can you see that your evidence is weak at least in this case?
By the way, a while back, I asked if you could tell me what 1 Corinthians 8:6 actually means. You have already told me, (and others), what you think it does not mean, (i.e. “kurios” is not a weaker appellative…). I am curious to know what you think Paul was trying to teach us in that one verse – what positive doctrinal statement was he making. Could you repost your response here?
Quote Hi W,
The Spirit wrote the scriptures through men and is the Source of truth. As you know there is no “God the Spirit” in scripture but that is a human fabrication. The Spirit is the “finger of God” enjoined always with God and doing the work of God among men.Nick!
So The Spirit of God is the “finger of God”?
Does your finger have ears?
Does your finger have a mind?
Does your finger have a mouth to speak?Luke 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
[18] If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? Because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
[19] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore shall they be your judges.
[20] But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.Mt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, this fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
[25] And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
[26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
[27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
[28] But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.Luke used the word daktulos {dak'-too-los} which means, the finger or power of God!
Mathew used the word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} which means, a movement of air (a gentle blast)
of the wind, hence the wind itself, breathe of nostrils or mouth.
To simply say the Spirit of God is the “finger of God” and that this is the nature of the Spirit of God in relation to God is to limit the Spirit of God to Just a breath of the power of God!
Obviously it is a question of the measure of the Spirit of God used here!
“if I by the Spirit of God” “if I by the finger of God” The finger of God here is a metaphor of the measure of the Spirit used to cast out devils! The finger of God is not a literal description of the nature of the Holy Spirit!
Jn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jesus received this same Spirit in bodily form without measure, all the fullness.
But if we were to say that the Spirit is literally the “finger of God”, then where is his Body, his hands, his feet, his head?
1 Cor. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
[15] If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[16] And if the ear shall say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[17] If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
[18] But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
[19] And if they were all one member, where were the body?
[20] But now are they many members, yet but one body.
[21] And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
[22] Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
[23] And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
The Hebrew word for finger is 'etsba` (ets-bah' ) which means: finger, toe.
Exd 8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger,( etsba ) of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exd 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger (etsba), of God.
Ps 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers (etsba), the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained…Lk 11:20 But if I with the finger (pneuma), of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Did they actually see the Finger of God? They saw a measure of the power of God manifested through the work of his Spirit!
Quote Posted: Sep. 09 2006,00:06 ——————————————————————————–
Oxy, I am still waiting for your explanation as to why the trinity doctrine that you promote, directly breaks hundreds of scriptures.How do you explain away that fact that the word “God” replaced with the word “Trinity” nullifies the word of God?
Do you just ignore this fact? Or do you have a reason. I await your reason, but if I do not get one, then I can only conclude that you choose to remain ignorant.
T8
I know this is a late response but was reading over the post and couldnt help but respond!
First of all it is a rediculous statement which makes no sense.
If you replace the word adultery in the bible with the word sin you would also make the word void!
Tell you what you replace the word God with Father and I the word God with trinity and lets see what we have!!!
Totally rediculous!!! Because to do such would nullifiy the word in both cases!
Thank You, Thank You Very Much, WhatIsTrue
I really don't think I could have made it very clearer than what you have done! I am bowing out of this debate, because I don't do going around in circles!
However, you have made my point very clear!I said to Is 1:18 that Yeshua is NOT called YHWH in Zechariah 14.
I presented a post on page 27 showing that YHWH who Zechariah explicitly speaks of, will fulfill His purpose through & via His agent, Yeshua the Messiah.
There is no contradiction.
ONE GOD, YHWH of hosts.
ONE Appointed Agent, the man Yeshua the Lord Messiah, YHWH's son.Is 1:18's response: To repost practically an entire post which was the very reason why I entered the debate.
And still to insist that Zechariah is speaking of Yeshua the Messiah and calling him, YHWH, in Zechariah 14.
I am so glad, WhatIsTrue, that you can see right thru that fallacy.
Thanks Again for your post … I am well encouraged by it.
Adieu for now!worshippingjesus wrote:
Quote Blind Leading the Blind! Great! I presume by this comment that you are an enlightened one. That being the case, can you help me with the verse that I asked Is 1:18 about at the end of my post?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6:
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”I am not interested in what it does not mean. I am very interested in what positive doctrinal statement you think Paul is making here.
Thanks!
Adam Pastor,
You're welcome! I only (partly) restated what was already an excellent post by you.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 26 2006,02:30) Quote Posted: Sep. 09 2006,00:06 ——————————————————————————–
Oxy, I am still waiting for your explanation as to why the trinity doctrine that you promote, directly breaks hundreds of scriptures.How do you explain away that fact that the word “God” replaced with the word “Trinity” nullifies the word of God?
Do you just ignore this fact? Or do you have a reason. I await your reason, but if I do not get one, then I can only conclude that you choose to remain ignorant.
T8
I know this is a late response but was reading over the post and couldnt help but respond!
First of all it is a rediculous statement which makes no sense.
If you replace the word adultery in the bible with the word sin you would also make the word void!
Tell you what you replace the word God with Father and I the word God with trinity and lets see what we have!!!
Totally rediculous!!! Because to do such would nullifiy the word in both cases!
Hi WJ,A belated welcome to you.
I find your comment interesting and challenging at the same time, and should like to take you up on it.John 3:16 For GOD [The FATHER] so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For GOD [The FATHER] did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God [The FATHER].- Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of GOD [the FATHER] for us:
Based on these alone, I hope you concede.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 25 2006,19:37) worshippingjesus wrote: Quote Blind Leading the Blind! Great! I presume by this comment that you are an enlightened one. That being the case, can you help me with the verse that I asked Is 1:18 about at the end of my post?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6:
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”I am not interested in what it does not mean. I am very interested in what positive doctrinal statement you think Paul is making here.
Thanks!
Adam Pastor,
You're welcome! I only (partly) restated what was already an excellent post by you.
Good point. Satan has actually tricked many into turning Jesus into an idol. God sent His Son into the world so that we could be reconciled back to the Father, yet many stop at the Son. This was not Yahweh's purpose. Even Jesus said He was the way,truth, and the life, and that noone came TO GOD, but THROUGH HIM.
I was once also deceived into believeing the doctrines of man, and a hardcore advocate of the Trinity. Until one day I realized how much of the Bible I had to EXPLAIN because it contradicted what I believed. It is only by God's grace and mercy that we escape the snare of the enemy.Quote Hi WJ, A belated welcome to you.
I find your comment interesting and challenging at the same time, and should like to take you up on it.John 3:16 For GOD [The FATHER] so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For GOD [The FATHER] did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God [The FATHER].Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of GOD [the FATHER] for us:
Based on these alone, I hope you concede.
————–
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.Maybe You didn’t understand. I said “Tell you what you replace the word God with Father and I the word God with trinity and lets see what we have!!!
You forgot a few!
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (Father), and the Word was God(Father)
Heb 1: 8]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O (Father), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Father).
Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God (Father), command that these stones be made bread.
Does satan have a Father? No but he has a God!
Father is a title not a name!
My point is that’s a ridiculous argument!
The word trinity is simply a word Trinitarians use to describe their belief concerning the God Head. Has a Trinitarian asked a Unitarian to use unity in the place of God?
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Jesus as a Name above his own Fathers, Imagine that!
Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Why do Unitarians try to bring Jesus and the Holy Spirit down!
Trinitarians are always trying to exalt Father, Jesus and his Spirit!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 26 2006,07:06) Quote Hi WJ, A belated welcome to you.
I find your comment interesting and challenging at the same time, and should like to take you up on it.John 3:16 For GOD [The FATHER] so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For GOD [The FATHER] did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God [The FATHER].Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of GOD [the FATHER] for us:
Based on these alone, I hope you concede.
————–
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.Maybe You didn’t understand. I said “Tell you what you replace the word God with Father and I the word God with trinity and lets see what we have!!!
You forgot a few!
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (Father), and the Word was God(Father)
Heb 1: 8]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O (Father), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Father).
Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God (Father), command that these stones be made bread.
Does satan have a Father? No but he has a God!
Father is a title not a name!
My point is that’s a ridiculous argument!
The word trinity is simply a word Trinitarians use to describe their belief concerning the God Head. Has a Trinitarian asked a Unitarian to use unity in the place of God?
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Jesus as a Name above his own Fathers, Imagine that!
Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Why do Unitarians try to bring Jesus and the Holy Spirit down!
Trinitarians are always trying to exalt Father, Jesus and his Spirit!
Hi WJ,1. On John 1:1, you'll have to prove that there is one BEING, to make your conclusion that Jesus is the Father.
By Hebrews 1:8-9, we know that there are two beings – i.e. two Gods with the greater one anointing the other. My point here is to just indicate two beings, which you consider to be two persons in one being.Furthermore, how do you come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Father? Is 9:6 perhaps? If yes, then, how do you explain that you have two DISTINCT PERSONS in the so-called Trinity having the same roles, that is if you take Is 9:6 to mean that Jesus is our heavenly Father, which I do not as we've already been told he is the second Adam and subsequently the one whom God has appointed by whom we have eternal life. Additionally, we also have the scriptures that tell us that the life that Jesus has was given him by the Father. This is Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever.
So John 1:1 may speak exclusively of the Father (according to some), in which case the son is not there, or it speaks -as Trinitarians hold – of the Father and his Son (and I agree). But what it is not, is that the Father and son are somehow the same person. That is outrightly refuted by all scriptures that speak of the two of them.
Not to mention that a while back, we also talked about the fact that if the Word is a TRINITY BEING indeed, then at some point, the invisible creator of the universe became his own creation. This is a foreign concept to the Judeo-christian scriptures. On top of all that, he has been seen and touched and even crucified at the hands of humans. This is also a different doctrine which is contrary to our scriptures.
So then, Father can only be applied to the Father of all, who is also the God of all… and even so often specified by Jesus and his apostles and all the prophets to be the Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That's John 1:1.
Obviously, sometimes the word “God/god” applies to humans and demons too, so I am not going to include those scriptures but would focus on the ones concerning the True God of Creation, if that's fine with you.
Quote Hi WJ, 1. On John 1:1, you'll have to prove that there is one BEING, to make your conclusion that Jesus is the Father.
By Hebrews 1:8-9, we know that there are two beings – i.e. two Gods with the greater one anointing the other. My point here is to just indicate two beings, which you consider to be two persons in one being.Furthermore, how do you come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Father? Is 9:6 perhaps? If yes, then, how do you explain that you have two DISTINCT PERSONS in the so-called Trinity having the same roles, that is if you take Is 9:6 to mean that Jesus is our heavenly Father, which I do not as we've already been told he is the second Adam and subsequently the one whom God has appointed by whom we have eternal life. Additionally, we also have the scriptures that tell us that the life that Jesus has was given him by the Father. This is Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever.
So John 1:1 may speak exclusively of the Father (according to some), in which case the son is not there, or it speaks -as Trinitarians hold – of the Father and his Son (and I agree). But what it is not, is that the Father and son are somehow the same person. That is outrightly refuted by all scriptures that speak of the two of them.
Not to mention that a while back, we also talked about the fact that if the Word is a TRINITY BEING indeed, then at some point, the invisible creator of the universe became his own creation. This is a foreign concept to the Judeo-christian scriptures. On top of all that, he has been seen and touched and even crucified at the hands of humans. This is also a different doctrine which is contrary to our scriptures.
So then, Father can only be applied to the Father of all, who is also the God of all… and even so often specified by Jesus and his apostles and all the prophets to be the Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That's John 1:1.
Obviously, sometimes the word “God/god” applies to humans and demons too, so I am not going to include those scriptures but would focus on the ones concerning the True God of Creation, if that's fine with you.
————–
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.Mat 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Man I guess I am not very good at explaining!
Thats my whole point cubes!
I am not saying that the father is Jesus. I am simply saying that to change the word God to Father as T8 has suggested, is a weak argument against the trinity! Read the post again including T8.
Sorry I have not communicated this very well.
But I believe like you do that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son and the Spirit who is the Comforter
is one!
WJ,
You cited the ff:
Heb 1: 8]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O (Father), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom2. See, we hold that two persons and two beings are being spoken of, but that one is the Father and God of the other. Hebrews 1:9 and in fact, all of Hebrews attests to this. That's what the evidence shows. If there are two fathers in a room, that doesn't make them the same father of little Miss Muffet. Reasonably, this is apparent. Whereas the Trinity INSISTS that the two Fathers (including the PERSON of the Holy Spirit!) are the SAME FATHER. We don't have to abandon reason and what is known to embrace what is false, unknown and needlessly mysterious.
So no, this verse doesn't justify the Trinity either. I hope you can honestly see that too.
3. Again, you cited: Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Father).
In fairness, I can appreciate your premise here a little better. But I then must ask you: who is the greater — Jesus or Thomas? Whose testimony is more true –Jesus or Thomas? If Jesus is greater, then why do you not believe the same witness that Jesus bears concerning HIS GOD AND FATHER? If Thomas' Lord and God is Jesus Christ, and we agree he was telling the truth, then why do you take Thomas' testimony above that of Jesus who testifies concerning HIS God and Father? Do you not by so doing exalt Thomas above the Lord Jesus? Was Almighty God only a temporary God and Father to our Lord? Remember, that he changes not.4. Your reference: Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God (Father), command that these stones be made bread.
Quote Does satan have a Father? No but he has a God! Father is a title not a name!
God is actually the Father of all creation, so technically, he is the Father of all. Still, Father to me is personal. It denotes a very special relationship between male parents and their children. Satan could therefore be saying, “if thou be the Son of the Father [of all]…” and this would not necessarily mean he shares a similar relationship with the Father as we and Jesus do.More importantly, it does indicate that another person besides Satan or Jesus is being spoken of. Satan knows who God is (Job 1), and he did not consider himself to be talking to God. He wanted to tempt the Son of God and to perhaps weaken his resolve if possible. Jesus did not correct him but also answered him in the context that at any rate, as the son of God, he follows and worships only God (not himself), and certainly not Satan.
5. Regarding the rest of your biblical references in Ephesians 1:21, Phil 2:6f and Ps 138:2 and your comments,
Quote Jesus as a Name above his own Fathers, Imagine that! Are you serious? I have asked this question of Trinitarians in the past but you are the only one who has been bold and open enough to so far propose it.
Yes, IF the Father and his son are the same and were equal in stature to begin with, then by the Father exalting Jesus, Jesus has to exceed his former glory. So I often ask, did Jesus attain less, the same or more glory after his exaltation? You've now answered it to mean he has attained more glory. I agree with you. However, I strongly disagree that his glory was ever or is now equal to that of the Father. I believe that just to be the Father's son is glorious enough as al that the Father has are his and ours, but as his glory is and shall be greater than ours, so is the Father's glory eternally above all.Also, it clearly shows that the GOD in question who exalts Jesus, is none other than the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote Why do Unitarians try to bring Jesus and the Holy Spirit down! Trinitarians are always trying to exalt Father, Jesus and his Spirit!
I can't speak for all obviously. But we do not bring Jesus and the holy spirit down. By knowing our God, we are more able to worship him in truth and in spirit (or should anyway), and we know that Jesus Christ is his Son, and our brother. We have a Father and we have a big brother who advocates and goes to bat for us.
You must admit that knowing Jesus more enhances our relationship with him… how much more so, when you know him as he ought to be known, rather than what he has been made out to be? Trinity leaves more questions than answers. Far too many questions at every turn, basically.
My understanding of the holy spirit is that it is the Father's own spirit and so there is no “third person.” Jesus was conceived by the spirit of God and calls the one to whom the spirit belongs, “Father,” rather than a “third person.” It is why the Apostles call the Father, “Father” and not some “third person” etc. We see by the scriptures that it is the Father then who is “our Father, which art in heaven….”
In revelation, we behold the throne with the Father and the lamb of God only. The spirit is the Father's and in all those who are his, including Jesus and through Jesus to us.Quote So John 1:1 may speak exclusively of the Father (according to some), in which case the son is not there, or it speaks -as Trinitarians hold – of the Father and his Son (and I agree). But what it is not, is that the Father and son are somehow the same person. That is outrightly refuted by all scriptures that speak of the two of them. Amen Cubes! We are on the same side!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 26 2006,09:56) Quote Hi WJ, 1. On John 1:1, you'll have to prove that there is one BEING, to make your conclusion that Jesus is the Father.
By Hebrews 1:8-9, we know that there are two beings – i.e. two Gods with the greater one anointing the other. My point here is to just indicate two beings, which you consider to be two persons in one being.Furthermore, how do you come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Father? Is 9:6 perhaps? If yes, then, how do you explain that you have two DISTINCT PERSONS in the so-called Trinity having the same roles, that is if you take Is 9:6 to mean that Jesus is our heavenly Father, which I do not as we've already been told he is the second Adam and subsequently the one whom God has appointed by whom we have eternal life. Additionally, we also have the scriptures that tell us that the life that Jesus has was given him by the Father. This is Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever.
So John 1:1 may speak exclusively of the Father (according to some), in which case the son is not there, or it speaks -as Trinitarians hold – of the Father and his Son (and I agree). But what it is not, is that the Father and son are somehow the same person. That is outrightly refuted by all scriptures that speak of the two of them.
Not to mention that a while back, we also talked about the fact that if the Word is a TRINITY BEING indeed, then at some point, the invisible creator of the universe became his own creation. This is a foreign concept to the Judeo-christian scriptures. On top of all that, he has been seen and touched and even crucified at the hands of humans. This is also a different doctrine which is contrary to our scriptures.
So then, Father can only be applied to the Father of all, who is also the God of all… and even so often specified by Jesus and his apostles and all the prophets to be the Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That's John 1:1.
Obviously, sometimes the word “God/god” applies to humans and demons too, so I am not going to include those scriptures but would focus on the ones concerning the True God of Creation, if that's fine with you.
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Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.Mat 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Man I guess I am not very good at explaining!
Thats my whole point cubes!
I am not saying that the father is Jesus. I am simply saying that to change the word God to Father as T8 has suggested, is a weak argument against the trinity! Read the post again including T8.
Sorry I have not communicated this very well.
But I believe like you do that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son and the Spirit who is the Comforter
is one!
Sorry WJ,I missed this post as I was writing mine… guess they crossed each other. Ok, I am sorry if I've misunderstood you and also for the longer post!
Still, there is no such thing as a Trinity when it comes to our one true God.
Good night for now and take care.
Quote Hi WJ, 1. On John 1:1, you'll have to prove that there is one BEING, to make your conclusion that Jesus is the Father.
By Hebrews 1:8-9, we know that there are two beings – i.e. two Gods with the greater one anointing the other. My point here is to just indicate two beings, which you consider to be two persons in one being.Cube, So what about the Lord our God is One! Or thou shalt worship the Lord thy Go and him only shalt thou serve. Or you cant serve two master!
How can there be 2 Gods? Seems to me that is more confusing!
Hi WorshippingJesus,
Quote Show me David where Jesus was worshipped that he discouraged it and pointed to the Father.
That's my point. We can't be sure that Jesus was ever worshipped in scripture. The word used with reference to him is “proskyneo.”
That word, my friend, has a variety of meanings, one of which is “to worship,” others of which are “to do obeisance,” or “bow down,” or “show great respect.”Quote So when Jesus was being worshipped by man why didn’t he quote the same scripture that he quoted to satan as you have pointed out? Same Greek word!
Yes, same greek word. Obviously a different meaning, based on the fact that Jesus pointed to the Father as being the only one who should receive worship. We know Jesus wasn't talking about simply showing respect to God or anything like that. Because, obviously that definition applies to more in the Bible than just God. So, when Jesus said to worship the Father or that he alone was deserving of sacred service, he truly meant worship.
But, when that word “proskyneo” is applied to Jesus, (even though it's in your Bible) you may want to question it, or at least realize that the original Greek word and it's Hebrew equivalent had more than one meaning.This becomes circular reasoning.
Here's how it works:
–Jesus is part of the trinity and is Almighty God.
–Therefore, Jesus should be worshipped.
–So, when we come across “proskyneo” with reference to him, we translate it “worship.
–Since Jesus is worshipped, he must be God.I prefer, instead of starting with a belief that strongly resembles paganism and forcing words such as “proskyneo” to fit into that belief that took hundreds of years to be formed….I prefer to look at what Jesus said and reason on it.
Jesus said that “proskyneo” should be applied to his Father. Obviously, he wasn't speaking of just deeply respecting the Father. When Jesus spoke of this word and said it should be applied to God Almighty, it was obviously in reference to worship.
The ones who translated your Bible–they weren't just acquainted with the trinity belief. They believed Jesus is a trinity. Less and less Bible's use “worship” in those places in reference to Jesus, but the bias is still there.“Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of Gr. pro•sky•ne′o or, in the Deuteronomy account that Jesus was quoting, Heb. hish•ta•chawah′], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service [form of Gr. la•treu′o or Heb. ‛a•vadh′].’” (Mt 4:10; De 5:9; 6:13)
Quote Was Jesus worshipped and did he discourage it?
Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mt. 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live
.Mt14:13 When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities.
Jn. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.I don't think you hear what I'm saying. The word that is translated worship in these verses above was chosen by the ones who translated your Bible. It could just as easily have been translated as “obeisance,” which is to show a very deep respect and honor.
You're saying “look at what my Bible says” means very little if you don't understand what the orginial Greek word means.Quote Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve! So apparently Jesus was a sinner for receiving worship and not telling them to worship God and not Him?
So either Jesus was a sinner, or he wasn't actually being worshipped. You're right.
There is no contradiction here, when we realize that proskyneo has a variety of meanings. Everything you say seems to argue it from the point that your Bible contains the word “worship” in those places. Look to the Greek. Understand that those who tranlsated your Bible without question believed in the trinity and when given the option to translate that word “obeisance” or “worship” it wasn't a tough decision for them, but it was a biased one.Quote Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
If that proves it, I guess this disproves it:
HEBREWS 1:6
“But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.””Quote I suppose you can choose to interpret the word worship as you please to fit your doctrine!
I guess some who like to worshipJesus would know that someone could do that. But I prefer to look at what Jesus said, as opposed to which word biased translators decided to go with the translation.david
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