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Hey Nick!
You say” Why do you promote the worship of Jesus ahead of the worship of God Himself, since it was Jesus who told us to worship the Father?
Where in scripture are we also told to worship the Spirit?
Where is the Spirit shown as a deity in heaven with a throne of His own?
If you are a trinitarian why do you not seem to promote worship of the third member in equal degree?
What of the “coequal” nature promoted but never adhered to by such believers?
Why is trinity worship not given importance?
Are they all deities or is only the Son?
Are any deities but the Father?Have you not got the cart before the horse?”
Nick I don’t have much more to say to you since you totally misconstrue anything I say and totally ignore the points that I make that are valid indisputable points!
Where have I ever promoted the worship of the Son over the Father?
I have said all along to Honor and Worship the Son is to Honor and worship the Father!
Just as I call him Lord and Master and still honor the Father as Lord and Master. Just as I ask Jesus to forgive me of my sins and know it is the Father who also forgives my sins. Just as I follow Christ and keep his commandments I know that I am following God the Father and keeping his commandments! Why do you promote the Father apart from Jesus! Jesus said I Am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the Father but by me!
I pray to my Father in the Name of Jesus as he said!
I have never said that Jesus is greater than the Father or that there is no Son! I acknowledge all of the Scriptures that speak of The father and The Word Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one!
My point of reference is Jesus since there is no need to point to the Spirit of God since you don’t believe the Holy Spirit is a person. Obviously I wouldn’t expect you to worship an It!
But since you mentioned it you have said the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and since God is a Spirit And I worship the Spirit of God would I not be worshipping God who is the Spirit!
And since the scripture in question is Heb 1 and Psalms 45, Which you ignore and explain away, I have solely talked about Jesus and not the Spirit!!
You see Nick I have not denied or explained away any of the scriptures that you quote!
I have acknowledged them all!
You say” What of the “coequal” nature promoted but never adhered to by such believers?
Why is trinity worship not given importance?
Are they all deities or is only the Son?
Are any deities but the Father?Have you not got the cart before the horse?”
The Father Son and Holy Spirit are all Deity and can not be separated Nick.
The scriptures will never make since to you until you see it!
Is1:18 wrote:
Quote No you didn't understand my question. I'll explain. Yahshua is explicitly called YHWH twelve seperate times in Zecharaiah 14 (vs 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21). You surmise that this is because He is YHWH by proxy, as is consistent with the law of agency….My objection to this is: If Yahshua was explicitly called YHWH in Scripture because He was in the role of the Father's agent, then surely there would be many instances in Scripture to appeal to where other persons (e.g. Moses) are also explicitly assigned the tetragammaton, as they are also in this role….
Where are they?
An example of what Is1:18 is referring to:
Zechariah 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.Adam Pastor wrote:
Quote In Exo 7.17 we read:
(Exo 7:17) Thus saith YAHWEH, In this thou shalt know that I am YAHWEH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.However, how was it fulfilled?
(Exo 7:19-20) And YAHWEH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. 20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as YAHWEH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.Looks like a similar concept to me!
(My apologies to you both for butting into this discussion.)
Hi and Welcome back,
Any input is always able to be added to any conversation as this is a public forum.Hi OS,
Is 1.18 has never yet grasped the “becoming one” of the Father and the son as those who see them as always having been one must do.The same W. The unity is agreed unity, not eternal unity of substance, or the Son was never a son and the Father never a father, that those matters are paramount to our faith.
Nick!
Quote Is 1.18 has never yet grasped the “becoming one” of the Father and the son as those who see them as always having been one must do. The same W. The unity is agreed unity, not eternal unity of substance, or the Son was never a son and the Father never a father, that those matters are paramount to our faith.
Nick that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit!
Your Flesh is made of the same substance as my flesh. Our spirits are made after the Image of God and born of God! Same substance!
Hi W,
We are not speaking of the Son being the image of God but being a son at all. The Word was with God as a son begotten of God. He too was of divine nature but he was a SON. You and I may share the same type of nature but in no way do we share flesh!Hi,
“Nick that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit!Your Flesh is made of the same substance as my flesh. Our spirits are made after the Image of God and born of God! Same substance!'
The old trinity trick of now you see it and now you don't.
Substance is a word that does not define boundaries and yet is used to confine things.[/QUOTE]Hi W
Me? I am an ignorant, untrained, self taught lover and student of, the bible.
Nick I may be closer to agreeing with you on something than I had thought!
Hi W,
Ignorant people can learn and I am all ears to the Teacher. We are all ignorant but many are unaware of their lack.
How about you?
Are you replete?Hi W,
Ignorant people can learn and I am all ears to the Teacher. We are all ignorant but many are unaware of their lack.
How about you?
Are you replete?1 Cor 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
[2] And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
[7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
[8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.[3] But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 24 2006,19:24) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 24 2006,13:03) Maybe I don't understand your question. I am not sure what you mean.
No you didn't understand my question. I'll explain. Yahshua is explicitly called YHWH twelve seperate times in Zecharaiah 14 (vs 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21). You surmise that this is because He is YHWH by proxy, as is consistent with the law of agency….My objection to this is:If Yahshua was explicitly called YHWH in Scripture because He was in the role of the Father's agent, then surely there would be many instances in Scripture to appeal to where other persons (e.g. Moses) are also explicitly assigned the tetragammaton, as they are also in this role….
Where are they?
Blessings
Is 1:18
Hi Is 1:18
On the first line of my post on page 27, I stated:
Without a doubt, the Messiah is NEVER EVER called YHWH of HostsTherefore I most definitely disagree with your theory that Yeshua is explicitly called YHWH twelve separate times in Zechariah!!!
Zechariah is speaking about YHWH.
And YHWH will fulfill the word that He gave His prophet Zechariah through & via His agent, the Messiah Yeshua.Just as Zechariah said … in that day, YHWH will be GOD alone … His Name will be One … and He will be King over all the earth.
In addition, YHWH's Kingship will be represented by the King Messiah reigning in Jerusalem upon the throne of David.
Compare: (Rev 11:15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.If you are asking whether there are examples of agents being referred to as YHWH because they are representing YHWH;
well, there are examples in the OT, e.g. Genesis, etc;
where an angel of YHWH is referred to as YHWH, because the angel in question is representing YHWH.
Although it is obviously that it is an angel [the Agent] and not literally YHWH Himself [the Principal]Jn 16
” 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
The Spirit does not speak on His own initiative but reveals the Word.
“15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. “
Hey Nick!
So let me understand, the Father gives to Jesus all things, then his
His Spirit takes the things that Jesus speaks and gives them to us?So God the Spirit gave Jesus all things then takes the things that
Jesus speaks and gives it to Us? So God the Spirit was sent to us by
Jesus since it is the Spirit of God that came from the Father to live In Us?Is this correct?
Hi Oxy and Is1:18.
I guess all we can hope for is the gods of this forum, the creators will open their eyes and change, before the Son of Man, Wonderful, Counselor,the Mighty God, Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords and King of Kings returns in all of his majestic Glory!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2006,03:48) Jn 16
” 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
The Spirit does not speak on His own initiative but reveals the Word.
“15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. “
Hey Nick!
So let me understand, the Father gives to Jesus all things, then his
His Spirit takes the things that Jesus speaks and gives them to us?So God the Spirit gave Jesus all things then takes the things that
Jesus speaks and gives it to Us? So God the Spirit was sent to us by
Jesus since it is the Spirit of God that came from the Father to live In Us?Is this correct?
Hi W,
The Spirit wrote the scriptures through men and is the Source of truth. As you know there is no “God the Spirit” in scripture but that is a human fabrication. The Spirit is the “finger of God” enjoined always with God and doing the work of God among men.That Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and shared among those in Christ as the Spirit of Christ, gives them understanding of what is written. He also reveals to them the future from what is written too as “the testimony of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy”.
Until men are reborn from above of the Spirit they cannot see the kingdom and are prey to the rebellious and antichrist religious doctrines of this world which are spawned by the god of this world to deceive them.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2006,20:03) Hi OS,
Is 1.18 has never yet grasped the “becoming one” of the Father and the son as those who see them as always having been one must do.
I don't think it's necessary to patronise…Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 24 2006,23:30) Hi Is 1:18
On the first line of my post on page 27, I stated:
Without a doubt, the Messiah is NEVER EVER called YHWH of HostsTherefore I most definitely disagree with your theory that Yeshua is explicitly called YHWH twelve separate times in Zechariah!!!
Zechariah is speaking about YHWH.
And YHWH will fulfill the word that He gave His prophet Zechariah through & via His agent, the Messiah Yeshua.Just as Zechariah said … in that day, YHWH will be GOD alone … His Name will be One … and He will be King over all the earth.
In addition, YHWH's Kingship will be represented by the King Messiah reigning in Jerusalem upon the throne of David.
Compare: (Rev 11:15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Yahshua is most assuredly called YHWH and YHWH of Hosts in Zechariah 14:Quote Yahshua is ascribed this title no less than four times in Zechariah 14: Zechariah 14
1Behold, the day of the LORD [YHWH] cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD [YHWH] go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD [YHWH] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD [YHWH], not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9And the LORD [YHWH] shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD [YHWH], and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD [YHWH] will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD [YHWH] shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD [YHWH] will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD [YHWH] of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD [YHWH] of hosts.The person described as YHWH in Zechariah chapter 14, below, could only be Yahshua. Here is why:
In Acts 1:11 we are told that Yahshua will return in “just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven”.
Acts 1:9-11
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” 12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.Yahshua ascended from the Mt of Olives and He will return there, as described in Zechariah 14:4. The Father is not going to stand on the Mt of Olives, Yahshua is. As I understand the Bible (and I welcome correction on this):
1.Nowhere in NT Scripture are we told that the Father will come to Earth in the role of punisher, sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem and sovereignly reign from Jerusalem.
2.The NT and OT categorically affirm that Yahshua will come to Earth in the role of punisher, defeat His enemies, Judge the nations and sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem and sovereignly reign from Jerusalem.
Here is my evidence for those assertions:
Yahshua declared He is coming again:
Matthew 24:30
30″And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. (cf. Matt 16:27, 24:37; Mark 8:38, 13:26; Luke 21:27)And;
Revelation 3:11
11I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.And;
Revelation 22:7
7″And behold, I am
coming quickly Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”And;
Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.And;
Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly ” Amen Come, Lord Jesus.The apostles, of course, were expecting and prophesied Yahshua’s return:
Matthew 24:3
3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”And;
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.And;
1 Timothy 6:14
That you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus ChristAnd;
2 Timothy 1:10
10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospelAnd;
2 Timothy 4:1
1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:And;
2 Timothy 4:8
8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearingAnd;
Titus 2:13-14
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.And;
Revelation 1:7
7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.When Yahshua does come He will come in the role as punisher/averger:
Zechariah 14:12
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD [YHWH] will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.Cf.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;And;
Revelation 2:16
16'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.And;
Revelation 17:14
14″These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”And;
Revelation 19:15
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.(Compare Rev 2:16 and 19:15 with Isa 11:4)
He (YHWH = Yahshua) will come with His saints:
Zechariah 14:5
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD [YHWH] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.Cf;
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.And;
Jude 1
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saintsAnd;
Revelation 19:13-14
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.After which Yahshua that will rule the nations from Jerusalem:
Zechariah 14:9, 16-17
9And the LORD [YHWH] shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD [YHWH], and his name one….16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.Cf.
Isaiah 24:23
23Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders.And;
Daniel 7:13-14
13″I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. 14″And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.And;
Daniel 7:27
27'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'(Yahshua is designated Elyon in several times in the Daniel 7 passage, this is unmistakably a divine name and means the supreme:
From Strongs:
H5946
Elyon
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5945; the supreme: – Most high.)And;
Joel 3:17
17Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain so Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more.And;
Micah 4:7
7″I will make the lame a remnant; And the outcasts a strong nation, And the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion; From now on and forever.And;
2 Timothy 2:10-12
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 11It is a trustworthy statement: For if we die
d with Him, we will also live with Him; 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;And;
Revelation 12:5
5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.And;
Revelation 20:4
4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.He will do this from the throne of David (an earthly throne), which His Father will establish:
2 Samuel 7:12-13
12″When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.13″He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.And;
Isaiah 9:6-7
6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousnessAnd;
Isaiah 16:5
5 A throne will even be established in lovingkindness, And a judge will sit on it in faithfulness in the tent of David; Moreover, he will seek justice And be prompt in righteousnessAnd;
Luke 1:32
32″He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”And;
Matthew 19:28
28And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.(We know that the Judgement will occur on Earth – 'Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side – Joel 3:1, 9-12)
So, the summation says: The Zechariah 14 narrative could only be prophetic of Yahshua’s second coming, battle, and sovereign reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem. This is entirely consistent with the eschatological data relevant to these events. Yahshua is explicitly called YHWH in Zechariah 14: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, and identified as “YHWH of Hosts” in vss 16, 17 and 21 (twice). The Bible would not ascribe this divine name to someone who is not YHWH. Yahshua is YHWH.
Blessings
Tell me Adam Pastor;Who will literally “go forth, and fight against those nations” (v3)?
Whose literal feet will stand on the Mt of Olives (v4)?
Who is literally coming with His saints (v5)?
Who will literally be “king over all the earth” (v8, cf. Dan 7:14)Zechariah 14:16-17
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.Do you honestly believe YHWH will recieve worship through Yahshua?? How utterly absurd…YHWH doesn't allow ANYONE to recieve His worship by proxy!!
It's overwhelmingly obvious that Yahshua is called YHWH….because HE IS.
Quote If you are asking whether there are examples of agents being referred to as YHWH because they are representing YHWH;
well, there are examples in the OT, e.g. Genesis, etc;
where an angel of YHWH is referred to as YHWH, because the angel in question is representing YHWH.
Although it is obviously that it is an angel [the Agent] and not literally YHWH Himself [the Principal]
He he….I don't think that's a legitimate example, it's widely considered that the the Angel of the Lord is in fact the pre-incarnate Yahshua Himself, so for the sake of argument could you find a less ambiguous one? I mean YHWH had a lot of HUMAN agents! If you could show me ONE verse where another human agent is designated with the tetragammaton, it would add some real weight to your theory….. Surely Moses was explicitly called YHWH in OT scripture at least once?Blessings
Hi Is.1.18
Why would you need to try to prove Jesus is not the Son of God but God Himself?
Is this to defend the human doctrine of trinity against the truth of the Word of God?
Surely you need to decide whom you will serve.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2006,23:01) Hi Oxy and Is1:18. I guess all we can hope for is the gods of this forum, the creators will open their eyes and change, before the Son of Man, Wonderful, Counselor,the Mighty God, Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords and King of Kings returns in all of his majestic Glory!
To WorshippingJesus.Are you saying that we should replace our belief that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ and replace that with a triune God?
i.e., replace
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.with
And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
Why would you want us to do that?
Because you have?Wouldn't it be better for us to stick with what scripture says than follow the creeds of men?
We believe that Jesus came in the flesh. We believe that Jesus is and was the Logos that was and is with God.
Trinitarians believe that God came in the flesh, that God died, and that God took the sins of the world upon him.
And you want us to replace scripture with your teachings and beliefs? Are you crazy?
Hi Nick,
I believe Jesus is the Son of God and not the Father.
BUT…..
*WHAT* is Yahshua?? this is the question…
A) Fully man only?
B) An archangel, Michael?
C) Gods nature from whom He came…Creator Savior etc etc who is ALONE and ONE but not in Solitude?Can you answer What Yahshua is? Has the Father revealed this to you? If so…. *WHAT* is He?
Also I have told you before I don't believe the Father is the Son, Here is the Churches teaching to prove it!
254 The divine persons ARE REALLY DISTINCT FROM ONE ANOTHER. “God is one but not solitary.” “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” ARE NOT SIMPLY NAMES DESIGNATING MODALITIES of the divine being, FOR THEY ARE REALLY DISTINCT FROM ONE ANOTHER: “He is not the Father who is the Son, NOR IS THE SON HE WHO IS THE FATHER, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” THEY ARE DISTINCT FROM ONE ANOTHER IN THEIR RELATIONS OF ORIGIN: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” The divine Unity is Triune.Isa 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?
*What* is Yahshua
??? Blessings in the name of Jesus
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