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I believe in One God, and don't assume that a universe-creating, SUPREME being is restricted to the anthopomorphic constraint of unipersonality….
Should the infinite be held hostage to a finite limitation?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 24 2006,08:19) I believe in One God, and don't assume that a universe-creating, SUPREME being is restricted to the anthopomorphic constraint of unipersonality…. Should the infinite be held hostage to a finite limitation?
Well put! God is bigger, grander, holier, mightier and more awesome than we can begin to imagine. It is a folly to think that we can totally understand Him.Thanks Oxy, I think he can be generally understood by the Revelation he has given to use in the 66 books of the Bible. Obviously it's not a complete dossier, but there is enough information for us to form some firm conclusions….
Blessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 24 2006,08:19) I believe in One God, and don't assume that a universe-creating, SUPREME being is restricted to the anthopomorphic constraint of unipersonality…. Should the infinite be held hostage to a finite limitation?
HI Is 1.18,
Enough of philosphical speculation.Let scripture speak.
Let man be silent
in awe of the God who wrote it.Hi Oxy,
You join a lengthening queue of men who have come here proclaiming they alone truly hear the Spirit of God but their views differ totally in every way from each others.Those at the tower of Babel would share more understanding than they do, but they care not a whit that they stand alone apart from each other and apart from the Scriptures.
Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 25 2006,03:30) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 24 2006,08:19) I believe in One God, and don't assume that a universe-creating, SUPREME being is restricted to the anthopomorphic constraint of unipersonality…. Should the infinite be held hostage to a finite limitation?
Well put! God is bigger, grander, holier, mightier and more awesome than we can begin to imagine. It is a folly to think that we can totally understand Him.
Exactly.He is bigger than we can imagine, that is why we shouldn't entertain the imaginations of men.
Idols, creeds, and formulas that try to explain God are imaginations. How can a man understand anything about God by working him out or by revelation of a man's own spirit. God cannot be likened to a triangle or anything that man makes with his own hands and fashions with his own mind. It is only revelation from God that we can learn about God.
That is what scripture is and it is what we should adhere to. Adhering to creeds that were formulated centuries after the last book in the bible was written is folly.
As you said yourself, “It is a folly to think that we can totally understand Him”.
So let me ask you this oxy.
Who in these forums stick to scripture for their doctrine and who use the imaginations of men?
Sometimes people cannot see that they do the very thing they preach against.
Scripture says that God is one.
Scripture says that for us, there is one God the Father.Creeds say that God is triune.
Creeds say that there are 3 who are called God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.So should I listen to scripture or the imaginations of men?
Well I would be a fool if I didn't choose scripture.
But I take it that you choose creeds, but I personally do not want to add to or take away from the revelation of God that he has given us.
Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 25 2006,03:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2006,07:43) Hi Oxy,
Your views do not match any others I have heard here so what is this unity you claim? Your doctrines are unique to you and thus you are the only one right or???
It seems you haven't been around much Nick, if you haven't heard the things I am saying before.My “doctrine” as you call it is not mine at all, but rather that which has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. He has, as I said before, taken me into Scripture to reaffirm that which He has shown me.
The funny thing is, when I became a Christian 28 years ago, the Lord led me to a church to fellowship in. It was a thriving Pentecostal church. I had never seen or heard of the Pentecostal movement before, so I saw demons everywhere and was convinced that they were in error.
When I got home I was determined in my heart to use the very Bible that they professed to live by, to show them the error of their ways.
As I started looking at Scripture the Holy Spirit said to me “Look, speaking in tongues” and then “Look, prophesying” and then continued to show me that Scripture was in fact being followed in that place. I could not argue with that, but aligned myself to the things the Lord had revealed to me. I continue to live that way.
Good.But I cannot believe that God said “Look I am a Trinity”.
Did he say that to you?Quote (t8 @ Oct. 24 2006,09:20) Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 25 2006,03:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2006,07:43) Hi Oxy,
Your views do not match any others I have heard here so what is this unity you claim? Your doctrines are unique to you and thus you are the only one right or???
It seems you haven't been around much Nick, if you haven't heard the things I am saying before.My “doctrine” as you call it is not mine at all, but rather that which has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. He has, as I said before, taken me into Scripture to reaffirm that which He has shown me.
The funny thing is, when I became a Christian 28 years ago, the Lord led me to a church to fellowship in. It was a thriving Pentecostal church. I had never seen or heard of the Pentecostal movement before, so I saw demons everywhere and was convinced that they were in error.
When I got home I was determined in my heart to use the very Bible that they professed to live by, to show them the error of their ways.
As I started looking at Scripture the Holy Spirit said to me “Look, speaking in tongues” and then “Look, prophesying” and then continued to show me that Scripture was in fact being followed in that place. I could not argue with that, but aligned myself to the things the Lord had revealed to me. I continue to live that way.
Good.But I cannot believe that God said “Look I am a Trinity”.
Did he say that to you?
Hi t8.. no, God has never said to me “I am a trinity”. I have explained this before, but I will give it another go.I do not adhere to the One God being 3 equal beings.
I believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The father YHWH
The Son Yashua
and the Holy Spirit.To me, trinity is only a word that means that the three seperate identities are one.
Hi Oxy,
So you are not following your “spirit guide” on this matter but have joined in the speculations of others??Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2006,08:49) Hi Oxy,
You join a lengthening queue of men who have come here proclaiming they alone truly hear the Spirit of God but their views differ totally in every way from each others.Those at the tower of Babel would share more understanding than they do, but they care not a whit that they stand alone apart from each other and apart from the Scriptures.
I have never said that I alone hear the Spirit of God. NEVER!But this is typical of what I was saying before.. about how you twist things to make them something they are not.
But to help you understand.. to some it is given to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and
teachers. Eph 4:11It seems reasonable to me that God would speak to each of different matters concerning the Kingdom. No one man knows all, hence the need to continue in fellowship.
Where abouts do you fellowship Nick?
So tell me t8, the triangle on your last post. Is that how you see God, or is that an example of the naughty creeds?
Hi Oxy,
But to have fellowship you first need unity in the Spirit
so that all speak the reflections of the Spirit of God from Scripture.None has the right to go beyond scripture.
None can expect fellowship if they do because fellowship begins with the Father and the Son and God demands that we abide in scripture.
1Jn 1
” 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
1Jn 2
” 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.”
1Jn 2
” 14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. “2Jn
” 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
Jn 17
” 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. “
“So let me ask you this oxy.
Who in these forums stick to scripture for their doctrine and who use the imaginations of men?”
You know as well as I do t8 that Scripture can be used to say almost anything you like it to say, hence the many denominations and conflict of understanding. This is exactly why the Holy Spirit is needed, because it is Him who reveals truth to us.
Yes Oxy,
And the Spirit of God reminds us of the words of Jesus, and does not speak on His own initiative.
Jn 16
” 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
Is that not your experience of the Spirit?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 24 2006,07:56) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 24 2006,07:48) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 23 2006,14:59) Is 1:18, I hope the above helps to clarify things.
It helps clarify your position, yes. I'm also familiar with the Law of agency too, but thanks anyway for the detailed explanation. A question for you Adam Pastor: Can you show me verse in scripture where a person other than the Father, Son or Spirit is explicitly (not inferentially) assigned the tetragammaton, YHWH, to identify them?….
Blessings
Is 1:18
….because if you could produce one, then you theory would have to be taken seriously….
Maybe I don't understand your question. I am not sure what you mean.There is solely ONE GOD … ONE SOLE BEING who is ALMIGHTY GOD.
His name is YHWH
(Exo 3:15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YAHWEH, God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
(Psa 83:18) That men may know that thou, whose name alone is YAHWEH, art the most high over all the earth.He alone is GOD.
There is no other GOD but Him.(Isa 37:16) O YAHWEH of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
In the New Testament, YHWH is called the Father.
(John 17:1) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; …
(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(1 Cor 8:4) … we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, …Like I said, I don't quite understand your question … I don't know what you mean when you say “is explicitly (not inferentially) assigned the tetragammaton, YHWH, to identify them?….”
There is no them. There is solely ONE being who is YHWH; and that is Almighty GOD; He alone is GOD; He alone is YHWH.
Remember the words of Jesus and the scribe's correct response:
(Mark 12:28-29) And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
(Jesus the Messiah quotes the Shema …
YAHWEH OUR GOD, YAHWEH IS ONE)
(Mark 12:32) And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:There is no them … there is solely He
Hi David!
You say “Guy who worships Jesus, I would recommend you worship God. This is what Jesus said to do. At the very least, you could change your name to WorshipGod. Because we know we are to worship God.
First of all I will not put a lot of stock in what a Jehovah’s Witness has to say. Because I have met many of them in my life and found that they have a practice of adding to and taking away from the scriptures!
But in answering you, I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I Have committed to him against that day! So I will continue to “Worship, Honor and bow down to the Father the Son and the Holy spirit!
You say “MATTHEW 18:26
“Therefore the slave fell down and began to do obeisance [proskyneo] to him, saying, ‘Be patient with me and I will pay back everything to you.’”In Jesus illustration, was Jesus saying that the slave worshipped the king? “
In answer to your question yes! Kings and lords and pharaohs in those days were considered Gods and were worshipped. Jesus uses this parable as an example of how we should approach God!
23] Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
The Lord was God in Jesus parable!
And here we have an example of how a Jehovah’s Witness adds to the scripture a small word that can change a whole lot. “Obeisance [proskyneo] to him.” Where is the word “to” in the original text?
Now when I said “
Quote
Jesus only received this kind of worship and honor!I was meaning that in the scriptures in Jesus ministry and Life and the Apostles life that Jesus was the only one to receive this worship!
Show me David where Jesus was worshipped that he discouraged it and pointed to the Father.
The same Greek word for worship as I previously stated was used by Jesus in Jn 4 “God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth”
So when Jesus was being worshipped by man why didn’t he quote the same scripture that he quoted to satan as you have pointed out? Same Greek word!
“Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of Gr. pro•sky•ne′o or, in the Deuteronomy account that Jesus was quoting, Heb. hish•ta•chawah′], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service [form of Gr. la•treu′o or Heb. ‛a•vadh′].’” (Mt 4:10; De 5:9; 6:13)
Surely he would have told his disciple Thomas this scripture? Jn 20:27 “ Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”Was Jesus worshipped and did he discourage it?
Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mt. 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live
.Mt14:13 When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities.
Jn. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
“John20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.”
Many other scriptures besides these!!!Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve! So apparently Jesus was a sinner for receiving worship and not telling them to worship God and not Him?
In every case where a disciple or an Apostle was being worshipped by man that Aostle or Desciple told them to worship God only! Why wouldn’t Jesus do this that at least once?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
I suppose you can choose to interpret the word worship as you please to fit your doctrine!
But the word still stands as is and should be taken as is!
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 24 2006,09:20)
Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 25 2006,03:01)
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2006,07:43)
Hi Oxy,
Your views do not match any others I have heard here so what is this unity you claim? Your doctrines are unique to you and thus you are the only one right or???Nick you are wrong I agree with Oxy!
Hey Oxy I realize now that you can’t reason with people to see the Godhead! It is by revelation from the spirit only! Great is the Mystery of Godliness!
Math 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
[10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
[17] For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Hi W,
Why do you promote the worship of Jesus ahead of the worship of God Himself, since it was Jesus who told us to worship the Father?
Where in scripture are we also told to wosrhip the Spirit?
Where is the Spirit shown as a deity in heaven with a throne of His own?
If you are a trinitarian why do you not seem to promote worship of the third member in equal degree?
What of the “coequal” nature promoted but never adhered to by such believers?
Why is trinity worship not given importance?
Are they all deities or is only the Son?
Are any deities but the Father?Have you not got the cart before the horse?
Hi W,
Let's look at biblical evidence quality.
The bible is the ultimate authority on truth. Agreed?
So let us look at a concept in the bible and gauge it's veracity.Take the Sonship of Jesus.
Is he the Son of God?
Scripture records
God,
Jesus
Peter
Paul
John
John the baptist
Martha
and many others as agreeing with this.Are there greater witnesses to truth? No
So this fact is foundational to belief,
What of competing or parallel claims.
David? He must be to be Messiah.
Adam? He is if he is Son of Man
Abraham? Yes by faith.
Mary? Yes as son of Man
Joseph? It was commonly assumed.But none of these can have as much veracity as the Foundational truth that
JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD
God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones.Agreed?
So looking at worship.
Should we worship God, who is the Father? Yes
We have the written word quoted by Jesus to Satan so that also becomes his statement too.
We have the teaching of Jesus in Jn 4 that true worshipers worship the Father so this fact is now established in the mouth of two witnesses[2Cor 13]and thus proven.
Your evidence that “it happened so it must be OK” is seen to to weak by comparison especially when the same word is used of the mock worship by his Roman torturers. Actual teaching outweighs recorded observations when it comes to doctrine.
So why would you seemingly promote the worship of Jesus AHEAD OF the Worship of the Father?
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Oct. 24 2006,13:03) Maybe I don't understand your question. I am not sure what you mean.
No you didn't understand my question. I'll explain. Yahshua is explicitly called YHWH twelve seperate times in Zecharaiah 14 (vs 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21). You surmise that this is because He is YHWH by proxy, as is consistent with the law of agency….My objection to this is:If Yahshua was explicitly called YHWH in Scripture because He was in the role of the Father's agent, then surely there would be many instances in Scripture to appeal to where other persons (e.g. Moses) are also explicitly assigned the tetragammaton, as they are also in this role….
Where are they?
Blessings
Is 1:18
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