The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
Salvation is in the name of Son of God, Yashua.
Do you know him apart from God, his Father?
You must discern the difference, not try to prove he is not a son, if you are to find life.

[Oxy]

You continue to be excellent in the art of misconstruing what has been said Nick.

Isn't it obvious to you that there is more? Even Scripture says 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,” nor has it entered into the heart of man, “the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1Co 2:10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.

[Oxy]

The Father (YHWH) is not the Son (Yashua), and neither is the Son the Father.

However, in the beginning the Word was with God and was God, and jesus prayed to the Father that He would be returned to His former glory. Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

[Proclaimer]

I haven't been here for a while. But I can see at first glance that Oxy is still believing and teaching the false doctrine of the Trinity.

We will all come out of her eventually, but if we are led by the Spirit, I am sure that we would be led out of her before she is judged.

God warns his people before judgement and in the Book of Revelation he gave a warning to his people.

Revelation 18:4
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

The original Babylon was judged for her false gods. The Babylonian Trinity included.

[Oxy]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 23 2006,08:54)

I haven't been here for a while. But I can see at first glance that Oxy is still believing and teaching the false doctrine of the Trinity. We will all come out of her eventually, but if we are led by the Spirit, I am sure that we would be led out of her before she is judged. God warns his people before judgement and in the Book of Revelation he gave a warning to his people. Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; The original Babylon was judged for her false gods. The Babylonian Trinity included.

lol nice to see you t8. You haven't changed a bit! Actually, I've just arrived back after being at a more truthful forum.

[Proclaimer]

Is that a forum where a triune God is taught?

I prefer to adhere to the first commandment and scripture.

God is one. He is not Triune, Oxy. Ask the Jews, ask Moses, ask Jesus, ask Paul. It is written, so we have no excuse.

But if you wish to be under the influence of Contantine and Athanasius, then that is your choice. I wonder if you would be a follower of Mohammed if you were born in Iraq, or a Buddhist if you were born in Thailand?

Are you able to rise above the culture that is prevalent around you?

Why do you think the western christian culture is correct and all the other ones are wrong?

Did not Jesus say that the world is our enemy?
Did he not call us little flock.
Did he not say that the path is narrow and few travel there on.
Did not Paul say that there would be a “great falling away”?
Did not Paul warn us of false teachers who would rise up the minute he died and that they would draw men unto THEMSELVES.

Oxy, your religion doesn't fit the above.
Your religion is Roman Catholicism. It is over 1 billion strong.
They are not a little flock.
1 billion Catholics isn't a few that find the narrow path is it?
If Paul talks about a falling away, and you do not know what that is, then is it possible that you could be part of that falling away?
Do you attend a denomination that is headed by a man, be it a pope, pastor, bishop? If so, are you not being drawn unto a man?

The Trinity doctrine the so-called foundation of Christianity is a false foundation. It is believed by the majority of Christians and is probably the biggest belief in the world if not, then one of the biggest. Most of the followers of this doctrine also believe other errors such as Mary being the Mother of God etc. These errors are derived from the Trinity doctrine if you wish to know their source. One lie leads to another.

Oxy, you are free to be part of the world, or to be part of the Babylonian system that God wishes us to come out of. That is your choice. But we will continue to call people out and we will continue to shine scriptures that many christians ignore. You can't stop us and in the end the readers will come here and some will make a choice. They will believe your faith in the Trinity or they will believe that for us believers “there is one God the Father”.

I hope they believe that there is one God the Father, but men will believe what they want and their hearts will direct them to what they want.

We cannot change this, we can only present the scriptures so that those who seek the truth will all their hearts will see what scripture is really saying.

We are calling out to those who are seeking. We are not calling those who are already rich and fulfilled with their own understanding. We are calling the poor, those who have need. Those who know that something is missing, especially with the system that they are caught up in. Those who in their heart know that the truth is much more wonderful than what they hear men preaching at pulpits all around the world.

We are calling those who have a conviction. We are calling those who are humble and willing to be changed by the truth recorded in scripture. We are calling those who know that they shouldn't make the God of all, an idol, whether that is in the form of a carving, digram, man-made creed, or mathematical equation. We are calling those who know that God reveals himself and that men cannot know God from their own spirits and understanding. We are calling those who love God and truth and listen when God speaks and take note when scripture reveals him.

[david]

Quote

Hi Oxy, If you were presented with a bible which you never knew of and read it would you find a trinity expressed there?

There's no way that any unbiased person would read the Bible for the first time and come up with anything like the trinity belief. It's ludacris in the highest extreme to think such a thing.
It would take hundreds of years and many councel meetings with influential politicians trying to unite a kingdom to come up with something like that and twist things to make it seem believable.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 22 2006,09:33)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 22 2006,04:45) In Isaiah 6:1-10 the prophet Isaiah recorded an experience where he saw, heard and interacted with the YHWH of Hosts, sitting on His throne: Isaiah 6:1-10 1In the year that king Uzziah died I [Isaiah] saw also the LORD [YHWH] sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. John tells us that it was the pre-incarnate Yahshua that Isaiah saw: John 12:37-41 37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. The “Him” in John 12:41 can only be the pre-incarnate Yahshua, as He is clearly identified at the subject of the passage in verse John 12 v37. The narrative in John is not exegetically complex, far from it. The context of the passage makes it clear that John is stating that Isaiah saw the glory of the pre-incarnate Messiah Himself in Isaiah 6. And it irrelevant whether John 12:41 is translated: “Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.” (NIV) or “These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him” (NASB) ….because the “his” and “him” in question can only be applicable to Yahshua! It’s an issue of identity – Isaiah had seen the glory of YHWH, but John says that Isaiah had seen the glory of the Logos, therefore… Yahshua is YHWH. It's a no-brainer. I did. You are welcome to address the key points, which are. 1. In Isaiah 6:1-10 the prophet Isaiah recorded an experience where he saw, heard and interacted with the YHWH of Hosts, sitting on His throne. 2. John tells us, in John 12:37-41, that it was in fact the pre-incarnate Yahshua that Isaiah saw, heard and interacted with. 3. Yahshua is clearly identified at the subject of John's passage, in v37. 4. Isaiah had seen the glory of YHWH, but John writes that Isaiah had seen the glory of the pre-incarnate Logos, therefore logically Yahshua is YHWH. Dealing strictly with the two narratives, which of these points are wrong?, and why?

Greetings Is 1:18

Isaiah certainly did see a vision or an appearing of the Most High Living GOD, the One GOD, YHWH.
(Of course, he did not literally see him, seeing that no man has seen GOD at anytime. GOD would appear in the OT in some form/similitude, sometimes using His angels, visions, dreams, etc)

Isaiah saw a vision of the Most High GOD in His glory, as clearly shown in Isaiah 6:1-10.

Now in the NT, the Most High GOD, the ONE GOD, is called 'the Father'.

Yeshua the Messiah, the Son of the Father [2 John 3], explained that he of himself could do nothing!
[John 5.19,30, 8.28]; it was in fact the ONE GOD, the Father, who in actuality, did the works! [John 14.10]

Yeshua simply displayed his Father's works/miracles. Peter also verified this fact, …
(Acts 2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
(Acts 10:38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

John, is describing people who have indeed, rejected the Father's works … look again at John 12:37-41

(The Messiah in red, GOD in blue)

(John 12:37) But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
(John 12:38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord [YHWH], who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord [YHWH] been revealed?

John is quoting Isa 53.1; where Isaiah is asking YHWH, who hath believed our report. No doubt the arm of YHWH is alluding to the work of the Messiah.
Nevertheless, the object of Isaiah's question is YHWH!

Then John quotes another verse from Isaiah,
(John 12:39) Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
(John 12:40) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Who is the He? Who is the I?
Let's look at the verse that John is quoting.
(Isa 6:9) And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
(Isa 6:10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

This is YHWH GOD's voice to Isaiah. [Isaiah 6.8]
And when did this event happen? … John answers …

(John 12:41) These things said Esaias, when he saw his [YHWH's] glory, and spake of him .
Hence, Isa 6:1-4

So John wasn't talking about Yeshua as such.
Rather he was talking about people not believing on the Messiah alt
hough he displayed his Father's works/miracles; in fulfilment of a prophecy that GOD gave to Isaiah when Isaiah saw GOD's glory!!!
By not believing in GOD's Agent, the Messiah; this in turn is not believing in GOD!!!

John 12:37 describes the people's unbelief of the Messiah sent from GOD.
Verse 38: states that this unbelief was in fulfilment of Isa 53:1;
Verse 39-40 adds that this unbelief was in fulfilment of the words of GOD in Isa 6:9-10.
And verse 41 is a reminder of when Isaiah prophesied this … at what event:
The vision of GOD's glory in Isaiah 6.

So, Isaiah spoke this prophecy when he saw GOD's glory and spoke of GOD.
Remember, to reject the Messiah, is to reject GOD his Father.
So to not believe the Messiah, is to not believe GOD.
[Lk 10.16, John 5.23, 38; 10.25-26, 12.48-50]

The law of agency … to reject the Agent [in this case, the Messiah] is to reject the Principal [in this case, GOD]
i.e. John 12.44-45, Matt 10.40, Mark 9.37, Luke 9.48, John 14.1

So Isaiah was speaking about YHWH, because to reject YHWH's Messiah, is to reject YHWH.
Isaiah prophesied about YHWH's rejection when Isaiah saw YHWH and spoke of YHWH's glory.

Remember, Yeshua is YHWH's Agent

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 22 2006,10:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 22 2006,09:58) HIM-God, not Jesus. Isaiah saw the glory of God, the Lord of Hosts. Jesus is never called the Lord of hosts and it is very commonly used of God, his God and Father. That is incorrect Yahshua is ascribed this title no less than four times in Zechariah 14: Zechariah 14 1Behold, the day of the LORD [YHWH] cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD [YHWH] go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD [YHWH] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD [YHWH], not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9And the LORD [YHWH] shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD [YHWH], and his name one. 10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD [YHWH] will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD [YHWH] shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. 16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD [YHWH] will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD [YHWH] of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD [YHWH] of hosts. The person described as YHWH in Zechariah chapter 14, below, could only be Yahshua. Here is why: In Acts 1:11 we are told that Yahshua will return in “just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven”. Acts 1:9-11 9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” 12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. Yahshua ascended from the Mt of Olives and He will return there, as described in Zechariah 14:4. The Father is not going to stand on the Mt of Olives, Yahshua is. As I understand the Bible (and I welcome correction on this): 1.Nowhere in NT Scripture are we told that the Father will come to Earth in the role of punisher, sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem and sovereignly reign from Jerusalem. 2.The NT and OT categorically affirm that Yahshua will come to Earth in the role of punisher, defeat His enemies, Judge the nations and sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem and sovereignly reign from Jerusalem.

Greetings Is 1:18

Without a doubt, the Messiah is NEVER EVER called YHWH of Hosts

Zechariah, no doubt, is indeed speaking about GOD's Coming Kingdom upon the earth; its capital city being Jerusalem; whereby the entire world must yearly go to worship the Living GOD.

How this is fulfilled however, is another matter.

Remember, in the OT, the Jews would center on Jerusalem; and there, worship the Living GOD.
However, was GOD's throne in Jerusalem?
Yes and No! Let me explain.

Yep! I am going to say it again.
What the Jews call … The law of agency

GOD's throne was NOT literally in Jerusalem in OT times; it was in Heaven. GOD did not literally dwell in the temple; Heaven is His dwelling-place. [1 Kings 8.30,39,43,49, etc]

However, what many of us don't realize, is that when the King of Israel sat upon the throne of David and ruled in the city of Jerusalem, the capital of GOD's Kingdom; the king represented GOD's rule over the heavens and the earth!!!

The king was GOD's Agent upon the earth; and as such represented Almighty GOD his Principal, and ruled for GOD [2 Chr 9.8]; hence the throne of David was called the throne of YHWH [1 Chr 29.23; 2 Chr 9.8; cp. 1 Chr 28.5]; and David's Kingdom was called YHWH's Kingdom [1 Chr 28.5, 2 Chr 13.8; 1 Chr 17.14]. And both YHWH and the King were worshipped! [1 Chr 29.20]
Y
HWH being worshipped as Almighty GOD whilst the King being worshipped as the King of Israel, GOD's anointed one, GOD's Agent.

So, GOD's throne, in actuality, is in Heaven; However, when there was a king in Jerusalem, ruling over the Kingdom of GOD in Israel; the throne of David was called the throne of YHWH; because the king, YHWH's Agent, represented GOD, his Principal.
The King's rule represented GOD's rule upon the earth.

Sadly, as we know, the Kings of Israel/Judah didn't live up to GOD's ideal. Israel failed to be the Kingdom that it ought to be.
The king & the throne, and hence, the kingdom, was removed … UNTIL …
(Ezek 21:27)  I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
(Luke 1:32)  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
(Isa 9:7)  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of YAHWEH of hosts will perform this.
(Acts 3:21)  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
See also Acts 1.6-7

Yeshua has proved to be the promised King/Messiah by his total obedience to Almighty GOD.
He is the Lord Messiah [Col 3.24], GOD's ultimate Agent & Representative; who totally represents Almighty GOD in all things.

The throne of David is thus promised to him.
Almighty GOD will one day send back Yeshua the Messiah to inaugurate & restore the Kingdom of GOD upon the earth; he will rule from Jerusalem sitting upon the throne of David, in fulfilment of all the prophecies which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Hallelujah!!

Zechariah is one of the prophets who spoke these things.
He sees the great battle; he sees GOD's glorious Kingdom upon the earth; he sees GOD alone being worshipped as GOD (no more multi-faith societies); he sees GOD's will being done on earth as it is done in Heaven. He see the judgments that will come upon the mortals who refuse to obey GOD's commandments. He sees worship restored in Jerusalem, etc.

But it takes the NT to have a better idea of how these things will be fulfilled.
They will be fulfilled when Almighty GOD, the Principal, sends Yeshua the Messiah, His Agent.

Yes, it is the Messiah, GOD's Agent, who will come to Earth in the role of punisher, defeat his enemies, Judge the nations and sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem and sovereignly reign from Jerusalem.
He will therefore be the ultimate King of Israel who will rule for Almighty GOD, on the throne of David AKA the throne of YHWH. The Messiah will truly represent the rule of YHWH of Hosts over the heavens and the earth. It is through the King Messiah that YHWH of Hosts will be king over all the earth. [Zech 14.9]

So, how about, Zechariah 14.4? Again, the Jewish law of agency.
Let's look at an OT example.
In Exo 7.17 we read:
(Exo 7:17)  Thus saith YAHWEH, In this thou shalt know that I am YAHWEH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.

However, how was it fulfilled?
(Exo 7:19-20)  And YAHWEH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. 20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as YAHWEH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

Huh! YHWH GOD said He would smite the waters with the rod, but in actuality, Aaron smote the waters with the rod!! Is Aaron, YHWH? Is Aaron, Almighty GOD?
Of course not!! However, Aaron is standing as GOD's agent, in the very place of Almighty GOD Himself. The Agent stands as the Principal, as if, the Agent is the Principal.
That is how, the Law of Agency works, …
A person's agent is regarded as the person himself (Kid. 41b).

Now GOD said concerning Moses, (Exo 7:1)  And YHWH said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god/elohim to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Now is Moses, who YHWH called elohim, Almighty GOD? Of course not!
Moses is called elohim because he is GOD's Agent, GOD's representative.
He represents Almighty GOD to Pharaoh and Aaron. Compare: (Exo 4:16)  And he [Aaron] shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee a mouth, and thou [Moses] shalt be to him God.
(The is no Hebrew equiv. to the words instead of in the Hebrew text; these words were added by the translators! Hence I removed them from the above quote)

Now let us look at (Deu 29:1-6)  These are the words of the covenant, which YAHWEH commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. 2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that YAHWEH did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; 3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: 4 Yet YAHWEH hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am YAHWEH your God.”

Moses was reciting to the people all that GOD had done for them; then in verse 6, while still reciting GOD's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, “Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am YAHWEH your God.

What! Is Moses, GOD? Is Moses, YHWH? NO!
It is obvious that GOD Himself was not personally speaking to the people. Moses is speaking! However, Moses as the agent of GOD can speak as though he is YHWH Himself!!
Thus, GOD is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Hence the movement from speaking in the third person to the first person.
Nevertheless, it is clear, that Moses is not YHWH; he is simply speaking for YHWH as His Agent.

Again, the law of agency …
So, back to Zechariah 14.4

Just as Moses's mouth is used as GOD's mouth; just as Aaron's hand is spoken of as YHWH's hand in Exodus 7:17-19; then in the same principle of Jewish agency, the Messiah's feet are spoken of as GOD's feet.

In actuality, it will be the Messiah's feet that shall stand on the Mount of Olives; and by doing so, the Messiah will fulfil Zech. 14.4; since Almighty GOD will be operating and working through and via His Messiah.

All of Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled when YHWH of Hosts sends back His Messiah to fulfil His will. The NT therefore quotes OT verses being fulfilled by the Messiah, because the Messiah is GOD's Agent. When the nations come to give homage to the King Messiah, Yeshua himself; in honoring the Messiah, they will be honoring YHWH of Hosts. Just as David was being worshipped alongside YHWH in 1 Chr 29.20 yet David is not YHW
H; in like manner, due worship will be given to YHWH of Hosts as GOD alone; whilst YHWH's appointed King, Yeshua the Messiah, will be given worship as king over GOD's Kingdom sitting upon the throne of David AKA the throne of YHWH.

The Jewish law of agency explains the verses which speak of GOD doing something whilst the fulfillment is done by His Messiah. Because the Principal [YHWH of Hosts] is operating, working & fulfilling His prophecies through & via His Agent [the Lord Jesus the Messiah]

Is 1:18, I hope the above helps to clarify things.

There are many more examples of agency in the Scriptures, especially, in regards to how the angels spoke and operated as if they were YHWH Himself; yet in actuality, YHWH was operating & speaking through them.
I thoroughly recommend the following article for more info on the Jewish law of agency. …

http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/79.htm#1

[Worshipping Jesus]

Nick!

You say:

“Hi W,
There is only one God.
There is only one God who is worshiped.
There other Elohim, who are called Elohim because God calls them Elohim in scripture and for no other reason.

The Word did not have his own throne upon which he received worship in heaven and those who translated the NIV suggesting Is 6 shown in Jn 12 was Jesus on his own throne are away with the fairies.”

So Nick God has no purpose in calling Jesus Elohim? How convienent! Lets Just say there are many things that God says without a purpose simply because it dosnt agree with my doctrine!

The Word dosnt have his own throne is the point! There is only one throne! Therefore to reconcile these words there is no other explanation but that the Father and the Son together is God! They are 2 but one in essence and in everyway including Diety!

Now you can choose to ignore the scriptures when it is convienent but I choose to accept the whole word.

Again listen to these words that you claim to listen to and accept only!

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
[6] And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, and let all the angels of God worship him.
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Thanks Adam P. I would add that the Son was also a vessel for the Father's Spirit and not just a representative.

He was The Prophet who was expected, the only begotten Son. Unlike the previous prophets Jesus was anointed and filled with the Spirit of God to the fullness of deity and like them he spoke and worked worked in God's powers revealing the Father in him to men.

Indeed W he who was originally above the angels and made less for a time, now has the angels bowing to his feet [proskuneo]in obesience as he is at the right hand of God.

[Ramblinrose]

Adam Pastor – Excellent posts.

[Oxy]

Thumbs up Adam Pastor. Well written!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Nick!
Why do you do this?
You insult my intelligence by making these claims and quoting and interpreting the scripture to fit
your doctrine.
Remember Nick, Jesus taught us how to worship by your own words you have used John 4:21-24 over and over again!
Jn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
proskuneo {pros-koo-neh'-o} Greek Means to:
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
1) to the Jewish high priests
2) to God
3) to Christ
4) to heavenly beings
5) to demons

Nick the same Greek word is used wherever the word worship is found including the worship of the beast!

However you can not find one scripture where this word was used toward a man or a man of God where it was not corrected! Jesus only received this kind of worship and honor! It is a bowing down to be sure but by the Words if God this kind of worship was to be reserved for God!

And you still make light of God the Father calling Jesus God!

Amazing

[Oxy]

Quote (david @ Oct. 23 2006,10:30)

Quote Hi Oxy, If you were presented with a bible which you never knew of and read it would you find a trinity expressed there? There's no way that any unbiased person would read the Bible for the first time and come up with anything like the trinity belief.  It's ludacris in the highest extreme to think such a thing.   It would take hundreds of years and many councel meetings with influential politicians trying to unite a kingdom to come up with something like that and twist things to make it seem believable.

Personally I think that there are several different interpretations of the word trinity. As far as some are concerned, it seems to mean that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal etc. I do not buy into this.

To me, trinity is just a word that means 3 united.

The Father is YHWH God Almighty.
The Son is Yashua, The Word of God, restored to His former glory ie with God and is God.
The Holy Spirit is the power and revelation of God in our lives.

The three are one. There is a word to describe this concept. The word is trinity. Get over it.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
Thanks.
Then why do we need the word trinity which is from the apostate church?
Should we not abhor her fruit of rebellion against God

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Well for us there is One God.

1Cor 8
“6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

So no confusion FOR US.

How can you be in Christ and yet worshiping Christ?
Does a branch worship the vine or together do they serve the Gardener?
Does the toe worship the head?

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You say
“You insult my intelligence..”
Sorry but the Word of God often does that because it was written for the simple and so that mere children could come to Christ. The wiser we are the more difficult it is to become as a child but that is the way of Christ, the stumbling stone.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Nick!

You are the confused one!

For you have ignored and misinterpreted scripture to your own belief.

And now you insult me again by inferring that I am stumbling over the word and being offended by it and don’t understand the scriptures.

No Nick I am offended by your high mindedness.

When you cant explain a thing, this is how you respond!.God forbid that I should boast but in my defence , I have been a believer in Christ since 1974 and have Been to 3 Bible colleges! Pioneered and Pastored 2 Churches and have been in involved in Evangelism for 32 years! And spent thousands of hours studying the word! What kind of training or experience do you have Nick? What is your back ground My friend!

Not that any of this is anything to Christ. But I doubt that Im a child!

I also believe in one God! The Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit! These three are one!

Makes no difference whether you believe it or not.

I accept all the scripture concerning God the Father , Jesus the Son, And the person (he) the Holy Spirit of God. They are Inseparable; They are together the God Head! One cannot act without the other! Put all of the scriptures together. There can be no other conclusion!

Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
enemies thy footstool
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Certain Jews were also offended by the Word of Christ and he said
“Matthew 15:13
But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.”

You are teaching something not found in his mouth, that God is a trinity, so none are surprised here that it does not go down well when we show it to you. It was planted by rebellious men and we ought not follow them as that plant has no useful future.

You quote
'Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
enemies thy footstool
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.”

So if your trinity theory of God is true and the three persons are “inseparable” and coequal where are three here? Why is only the Son found, not as God but at His right hand?

[Author]

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