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Hi w,
“Just as you are a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body makes YOU one Nick.
So it is that he made man in his own image.”Are you saying this is a representation of a trinity God?
If so is Jesus just a body?
Which person is just a soul?Men should stop foolishly trying to devise a God in their image-such is the trinity theory.
“I will read your response but I am done with this discussion with you seeing that you have closed your eyes to so much of the word!”
You would be better to ressess what you are standing on because the traditions of men do not make for a sound and safe foundation and following blind men just means you will join them in the pit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 19 2006,02:45) Hi w
“The Heresy that I am speaking of is not calling Jesus the son of God.”
But that is the heretical basis of trinitarianism.Can you respond to my question and expound Acts 10.38 for us?
“38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him”
Was God anointed by God with God?
Why would God need to be anointed?
Hi Nick,Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us TO FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS. Then he suffered him.Jesus fulfilled EVERY law perfectly. Jesus even waited until He was thirty years old to fulfil *all* righteousness. Otherwise Jesus would have broken the Old Testament law.
Num 4:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Num 4:2 Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, after their families, by the house of their fathers,
Num 4:3 FROM THIRTY YEARS OLD and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, TO DO THE WORK IN THE TABERNACLE OF THE CONGREGATION.Num 4:20 But they shall not go in to see when the holy things are covered, lest they die.
Num 4:21 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 4:22 Take also the sum of the sons of Gershon, throughout the houses of their fathers, by their families;
Num 4:23 From thirty years old and upward until fifty years old shalt thou number them; ALL THAT ENTER IN TO PERFORM THE SERVICE, TO DO THE WORK IN THE TABERNACLE OF THE CONGREGATION.Num 4:34 And Moses and Aaron and the chief of the congregation numbered the sons of the Kohathites after their families, and after the house of their fathers,
Num 4:35 FROM THIRTY YEARS OLD and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, FOR THE WORK IN THE TABERNACLE OF THE CONGREGATION:And it continues……
Jesus could not be a priest unless He was anointed. I have already shown you these scriptures, Jesus would not have fulfilled all righteous otherwise.
Jesus didn’t humble himself from being the Word who was with God and who was God. He only humbled himself to take on our full humanity so He could glorify the human flesh so we could be in Him.
Jesus has his own spirit, and the nature of that spirit cannot be separated from the Holy Spirit or the Father. The nature is one from the *Origin* who is the Father.
We need to believe Jesus when He says that *He* raised himself from the dead. It was not the human flesh that was in the father it was the Sons very own spirit. We have a human spirit and a human body. Jesus partake in own weak human flesh but his spirit remained in full glory. Jesus was bound by human limitations in the body but he was boundless in the spirit.You can’t just read half of verses you need to believe every single piece of sacred scripture.
When you mention that the Father is in the Son you need to mention the Son is *ALSO* IN THE FATHER. This scripture is used to reveal supreme unity with the Father we cannot be in the Father unless we are in Jesus. We could not be in Jesus unless he humbled himself to take on our humanity so it could be quickened with glory so we could then in turn be quickened with glory so the Son could dwell in us in Tri unity with the Father and Holy Spirit.Your understanding of the Holy Spirit is close indeed He is the finger of God, He is also from the Origin the Father but He is not the Fathers very own person. It is the Holy Spirit that is the communication of God He talks to us, He reveals things to us.
God forgives all sins, that is if you are truly sorry for your sins. There is only one sin He cannot forgive, this is the sin of not listening to the communication of Gods Holy Spirit. This is done by totally shutting yourself of from the Holy Spirit which means He cannot lead and guide you to true repentance.
Blessings my friend
Hi SS,
You say“Jesus has his own spirit, and the nature of that spirit cannot be separated from the Holy Spirit or the Father. The nature is one from the *Origin* who is the Father”
Indeed Jesus did have his own human spirit…. that left him at death.
Matt 27
“50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit”But that was not the Holy Spirit that filled him at the Jordan.
Lk 4
” 1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, “That Spirit was poured out by the Father when Jesus returned home.
Jn 7
” 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
How many scriptures are there that say Jesus raised himself from the dead apart from the prophetic word of Jn 2.19 quoted by the murderous witnesses at his trial? And how many that say the Father raised him-20 or so?
” Jesus didn’t humble himself from being the Word who was with God and who was God. He only humbled himself to take on our full humanity so He could glorify the human flesh so we could be in Him. “
Compare Phil 2
” 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
So he who was in the form of God but was not that God chose not to seek equality with the God he was with but rather obedience and humility. Why should man be glorified? That was never in the paln of God but only the minds of vain men.
Hey Nck!
I said I would not be responding again to this forum, but I can’t let you get away with your answer!
I said “Is God a Spirit and the Holy Spirit another spirit?”
You said “NO. THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SO IS THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST.”
I said “Is God a Spirit?
JN 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
You say God is not a Spirit! Therefore you make Jesus a liar!”You said “Please quote where I have said this.”
Nick listen to your own words, “the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit” If God is a Spirit and the Holy Spirit is that Spirit, then they are the same. If not then you divide God by saying that God is a Spirit and the Holy Spirit a Spirit of God. How many Spirits does God have?
If God is a Spirit and he is not the Holy Spirit then why would he “God the Spirit” need the Holy Spirit?
So if God as a Spirit is everywhere and the Holy Spirit is not God… Why does God need the Holy Spirit?
So let me understand, the Spiriit of God and the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit?
So would it be fair to say that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ?
So 1=1+1, or 1+1=1.
If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, then what Spirit did Jesus have before Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God (who you say is the Holy Spirit) descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
You said “Matt 27″50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit”
But that was not the Holy Spirit that filled him at the Jordan.”
Nick how many spirits are there? God is not the author of confusion!
If the Holy Spirit that came on Jesus is Jesus Spirit, then Jesus Baptised himself!
Back to Thomas and the many others in scripture that worshipped Jesus!
You said “Listen with Thomas to Jesus.
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?”
He is not saying he is God.
He is not saying he is the Father.
But he speaking of a wonderful unity between two beings, God and the WordMy friend read the scripture again! He said MY LORD AND MY GOD! How do you have the right to say he is saying something other! Even if what you are saying is true. Show me Nick where Christ ever denied or redirected anyone to worship the Father when they worshipped him! One Scripture Nick! Just One scripture! So if Jesus received worship to himself rather than redirecting it to the Father then he was a sinner!
You say “Please quote where John and Paul say the Spirit is a person.”
How about Jesus speaking of of the Holy Spirit as HE, Do I need to list all the sriptures in John Ch 15 & 16?. Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as a comforter, He Speaks of the Spirit as having ears and a mind and a will and intellect and a mouth.Tell me Nick what kind of CREATURE is the Holy Spirit that you speak of if he is not a person.
What kind of creature lives in us that helps us with our infirmities and prayers. And if the Spirit you speak of is something other than the person of God himself then he is a created being! How can these things be Nick?Nick consider the laws of seed bearing! You plant corn you get corn. Every seed bears after its own kind! A dog brings birth to a dog! A cat a cat, a human a human etc.
Jesus the word never had a beginning but he as a man did. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, (which you say the Holy Spirit is Jesus Spirit, so Jesus brought birth to himself), which was that he was as a man conceived by God! Which means he bore the Nature of God.
But it was the Spirit of Jesus the Word of God that made him God! The word was God! It was the man Jesus that made him the son of God!
Nick you can not separate the three without confusion. Its not 1+1=1 or 1=1+1. But it is 3+0=1 or 1=3+0.
Math 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Hi W,
You say
“Nick listen to your own words, “the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit” If God is a Spirit and the Holy Spirit is that Spirit, then they are the same. If not then you divide God by saying that God is a Spirit and the Holy Spirit a Spirit of God. How many Spirits does God have?”read 1 Cor 2
“9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.”
God is a spirit. Spirit beings are soul and spirit and we are made in the image of God in that way.
Ps 11
“Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.”The Spirit of our God knows God just as our spirit knows us.
Was God in Christ in the fullness of deity? Yes.Is He near to all men?
Yes
Acts 17
” 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”
Then why did Jesus say in matt 6?
” 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. “
God is in heaven but is expressed by His amazing Spirit throughout His creation just as a finger works for a person the finger of God works for God without being separated from God any more than a finger is separate from us.
Hi w,
The Spirit of Christ is that full portion, the fullness of deity, that was poured by the Father into him at the Jordan. Thus it was not poured from him into us to unite us all in God until he died.Jn 7
” 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) “
It is shared too by those in him so that all members of the body of Christ have a role in that body and the specific empowering needed to fulfill that role. In fact to not share that Spirit is to be outside of Christ.
Rom 8
” 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. “
Note that in this verse
The Spirit
The Spirit of God and
The Spirit of Christ are used interchangeably.1Cor 10
“4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. '
1Peter 1
” 10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”
Rev 19
“10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. “So also the prophetic Spirit can be called the Spirit of christ.
Hi W,
“Jesus the word never had a beginning but he as a man did. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, (which you say the Holy Spirit is Jesus Spirit, so Jesus brought birth to himself), which was that he was as a man conceived by God! Which means he bore the Nature of God.”The Son was a son before he was sent into the world.
1Jn 4
” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. “
I think we should accept fully the testimony of John ahead of any derivations made by natural men.
The Spirit of God was the physical Father of Jesus showing that the Spirit is of God doing the work of God on earth. So Jesus was not his own father and God poured of His Spirit into him at the anointing in the Jordan thus uniting Father and son as one.
Hi w,
You say
“Tell me Nick what kind of CREATURE is the Holy Spirit that you speak of if he is not a person.”God is not a creature and the Spirit is of Him.
“Nick how many spirits are there? God is not the author of confusion!”
There is one Holy Spirit of God which in Christ and his body is called the Spirit of Christ.
“If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, then what Spirit did Jesus have before Mat 3:16”
He was like to us in all ways except sin-body soul and spirit, which spirit returned to God at his death as happens with all of us.
Mt 27
” 50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost”Ecc12
” 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”No confusion there as the Holy Spirit never left Christ and God raised him by it.
Hi w
You say
“Nick consider the laws of seed bearing! You plant corn you get corn. Every seed bears after its own kind! A dog brings birth to a dog! A cat a cat, a human a human etc”
Do you think we should apply the laws of earthly nature to God and His Son? Why should they be fitted with our puny measures? The Image of God is not also the one he images.The only teaching Jesus gave us about worship is in Jn 4 and he told us to worship the Father. We should not derive teachings from the observed behaviours of men but by the mouth of His servants.
Hi w,
“How about Jesus speaking of of the Holy Spirit as HE,”
Not good enough sorry.
Inference.
Circumstantial evidence.
Please show clear scriptural teaching for doctrinal matters.Hi w
“Nick you can not separate the three without confusion.”
If you do not know the son as separate from God how are you going to find the salvation that is in the Son?Jesus is undoubtedly the Son of God.
Do not confuse agreed unity with oneness lest you be found among those who deny the Master.
2Peter 2
” 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
.
Hi w,
You have been confused by the theologians.“But it was the Spirit of Jesus the Word of God that made him God! The word was God! It was the man Jesus that made him the son of God!”
Do not confuse the divine origins of Jesus, the Word who was with God, with the powers he showed on earth. He emptied himself[phil2] to be just like you and me till God anointed him in power at the Jordan.
Acts 10
” 36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins”
Nick!
You say “The Spirit of our God knows God just as our spirit knows us.
Was God in Christ in the fullness of deity? Yes.”How can the Spirit of God Know God unless he is a person?
“How about Jesus speaking of the Holy Spirit as HE,”
You say “Not good enough sorry.
Inference.
Circumstantial evidence.
Please show clear scriptural teaching for doctrinal matters. “Sorry Nick there is no greater teacher than Christ! WHAT MORE EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED? I suppose if he was standing in front of you when he spoke these words you would say “sorry Jesus you are wrong for referring to the Holy Spirit as a He. Let me correct you its not a he but an it!
You say “The only teaching Jesus gave us about worship is in Jn 4 and he told us to worship the Father. We should not derive teachings from the observed behaviours of men but by the mouth of His servants.”
Sorry Again you do not tell the truth. Jn 4 is not the only teaching.
8] And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
[9] And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Lk 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
[39] And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
[40] And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.True Nick Jesus is the Greatest teacher and yet He didn’t in one place reject or point to the Father when he was being worship! Could it be Nick that its because he is God also?
Anyway you Stlill havnt shown me one Scipture that forbids the worship of Jesus, show me one Nick where when Jesus was being worshipped that he discouraged it. Just One!
You know friend we are getting no where in this debate obviously you are set in your belief as I am in mine! It seems that you have had these questions brought b4 you hundreds of times and probably have the answers written so you can copy and paste them in response then modify it to fit the situation.
I believe Jesus is my Savior and he has forgiven me of my sins and I have his Holy Spirit in me. I have confessed Jesus with my mouth and belived with my heart and will continue to give him all the praise and the honor and the glory! My Father is my God and Jesus is My Lord and the Holy Spirit is my Comforter and my guide!
Sincerely Keith
Hi w
“How can the Spirit of God Know God unless he is a person?”Does your spirit know you?
1Cor 2
” 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”Is your spirit another person from you?
Jesus did not TEACH that the Spirit is a person. Inference is very weak evidence and it would be unwise to teach from it.
Hi w
“Could it be Nick that its because he is God also?”Inference again.
Jn 20
” 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. “
Does God have a God?Hi w,
“8] And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
[9] And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Lk 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
[39] And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
[40] And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.”
Is this all the worship we owe God?Nick
Anyway you Stlill havnt shown me one Scipture that forbids the worship of Jesus, show me one Nick where when Jesus was being worshipped that he discouraged it. Just One!
Nick!
If you think I am conceding, I am not.
You havnt convinced me in the slightest way of your Belief?You Stlill havnt shown me one Scipture that forbids the worship of Jesus, show me one Nick where when Jesus was being worshipped that he discouraged it. Just One!
This is the one you wish you could answer because this is the big question seeing that we are to worship the Lord our God and him only shall we serve!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2006,01:08) Nick Anyway you Stlill havnt shown me one Scipture that forbids the worship of Jesus, show me one Nick where when Jesus was being worshipped that he discouraged it. Just One!
Hi W,
No and there are no scriptures forbidding a lot of things.He was a vessel for God and deserved the same honour as God.
But he did teach us to worship the Father.NTDoctrine is not built on what is forbidden because we are under the new inner Law of the Spirit.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2006,01:14) Nick!
If you think I am conceding, I am not.
You havnt convinced me in the slightest way of your Belief?You Stlill havnt shown me one Scipture that forbids the worship of Jesus, show me one Nick where when Jesus was being worshipped that he discouraged it. Just One!
This is the one you wish you could answer because this is the big question seeing that we are to worship the Lord our God and him only shall we serve!
Hi w,
It is so hard to shake off the rust and cobwebs of fossillised tradition and none of us want to change.But you need to choose whether to follow the theologians or the Master.
He said his word was truth and to abide in the word so that leaves little room for vain speculation and inference does it?
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