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Agreed, the perfect will in unity. Thank you for your reply. Another thing to mention is when Jesus was on the cross and the Father himself, had to turn from the Son when the Son became the sin of the world. The Son was doing the will of the Father, but the Father, because he cannot look upon sin, had to turn away from the Son. That is why Jesus asked the Father, why hast thou forsaken me. For the first time ever, since the Son was begotten of the Father, had the Father been apart from the Son. The Holy Spirit that was in the Son was removed before the Son became sin. And the Son, for the first time ever was apart from the Father. Yet, it had to be done, for it was the will of the Father and the Son knew this, even before he came into the world in the flesh.
Just as the Holy Spirit cannot come into an unclean vessel unless it first be made clean by salvation, the cleansing blood of the lamb, the Holy Spirit would of had to leave Jesus in order for him to become the sin of the world. So when the Holy Spirit of God departed from Jesus, it was at that time Jesus said what he said about being forsaken. For he had never, from the time he was begotten to that time been apart from the Father.
What about common sense or the unction of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus was to become the sin of the world, and he did, the Holy Spirit of God could not have been in him at the time he became our sin.
Just as the Holy Spirit cannot come into an unclean vessel unless it first be make clean, the same would apply here. The Holy Spirit of God would have to depart the Son before the Son became sin. Common sense. Just like adding two plus two.
I do have a question for you though Nick. You keep say we, we, we. Whom are you referring to as we. Is there two Nicks there or are you a spokesman for all the forum?
Hi H,
Commonsense is wonderful, but not revelation.You are saying that Jesus is different to us?
Jn 14
” 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
Ps 139
” 7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.”
Just as a man who has never heard of God and will stand before God must be judged according to the life he had lived while on earth, he will be judged how?
In all, the knowledge of good and evil is within. Even if a man had never heard the commandment, thou shalt not kill, the man knows it would be wrong to kill another man.
Those who have had theirs seered with a hot iron will never understand. The sons of perdition will not have the truth in them and not understand the truth when put in front of them. They will seek the path of destruction. For their love of sin is greater then their love for God.
nick, I forget where it is you might stand concerning the ..what?? ..triune nature of God? Are you advocating that God the Father and his Son as two individual beings both existed before creation?
In meditating the scriptures, it engages my imagination.
“4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.”
Are you hearing what this scripture you quoted implies?
For me, the 'Son' factor is no different then the 'Word' factor, as far as origination goes.
Jesus, as the Son of Man (the second man Adam) had the Word incarnate his being..as the last man Adam.
If we were to suppose that Jesus was always the Christ, the Word. Hebrews 1:4 does not make much sense, does it? The implication here as I understand it..is: As a result of Jesus the Son of Man, walked in the Anointing of the Christ (Word) of God……..was 'MADE so much better than the angels, as he had by INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name then they'.
If Jesus always was The Word..the 'being made' and inheriting should not apply..in other words, this scripture has no revelance and is really not true. For he would have always been so much better (higher than) the angels, and everything already in his full possession.
No, the context here as well as in Philippians, brings to bear and element of exaltation..as a result of his obedience as the Son of Man, of whom the Word incarnated..only then, as Jesus the Christ and through the Christ..won for himself such a great inheritance he was given all authority in heaven and in earth.
Christ is the very power and word of the Triune Godhead.
Jesus was more like a created being who held to the tree of life in the pre-fallen garden. The held back secret. The fail-safe plan of the Triune Being.
When I say Triune Being, I do not mean trinity, or 3 persons in One Being..but 3 Beings and one Person..of which Person, Jesus as the incarnate Christ (Word made flesh) exemplied here on earth.
Hi Jah,
“
When I say Triune Being, I do not mean trinity, or 3 persons in One Being..but 3 Beings and one Person..of which Person, Jesus as the incarnate Christ (Word made flesh) exemplied here on earth.”What on earth do you mean?
Does that make 4 beings?
Does the Spirit of God have life in Himself separate from God?
Is Jesus the Son of God, or part of God?
Are you saying the Word became incarnte in Jesus?
If so when and did that make two beings in one?
Did God also live in Christ?Heb 1.1f
” 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they”
So in these verses we see the origins of the Son who was with God and through whom God made the world , having complted his mission as a mouthpiece for God is now back in heaven from whence he came in a more elevated position than before. He was higher than the angels, he was mde for a little while less than them and he is now “much higher' than them.
” 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”
V5-14
describes in more detail his original state again and follows through his coming into the world to show his final glorious role as King of kings, which is part of his deserved inheritance.Hi,
Trinity has no scriptural foundation.
That should be enough to discover for an honest God fearing bible student.Although I'm accused of trying to make God in my image and likeness, I do take the word of God that I am made in his image of likeness. Or, like unto him..who is ever holier and higher..notwithstanding, he has given me a kind of premise to work with.
We know that, 'In the beginning God created the heavens and earth'.
The, 'by whom also he made the worlds'..is nothing less then his own words.
As I said before, I tend to believe that Christ is the Word of God.
In a human sense which we can understand…if you were God (in the sense of being made in his image and in his likeness). You WILL your Word. Your will is not your word, but every word you choose to set forth is an act of your will.
So it is within the Triune Being of God. Far beyond us, yet the premise that holds true to the likeness of our own being applies.
Hear oh Isreal, the Lord our God is One! God is One indivisible whole. His Will and Wisdom and Word are one. The expression of his Word is the expression of his Will. So likewise, the expression of the Son, is the expression of the Father. The Will of God is inherently bound-up within his Word. They are One.
His Word, his divine intelligence, pervades through everything. This is why all creation groans. Although his divine intelligence is present everywhere, certainly does not mean everything is controlled by that intelligence. Not everything is yet under his feet. Well, actually everything has been subdued under his feet, but it is the mission of the church, to bring the full manifestation of that truth. You might say, everything is under the feet of the headship of Christ, but not all is yet under the Body of Christ.
Nick, I do not know where you stand. Only as I know where you stand, can I really relate.
I'm saying, God is One Triune Being, I hope that is clear. I'm saying Jesus was created in much the same manner as the first man Adam. I'm saying that Jesus was the pre-ordained lamb of God that would come as the perfect, sinless lamb..qualified to take away the sins of the world. That the Anointed one entered him at the baptism in Jordan..and he first began to preach at this point in time: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”. Or, the kingdom of heaven has now arrived.
What say ye?
Hi Jm,
Do you really fear God?
Do you believe He has revealed His nature in the bible and in creation?
Do you believe scripture is the truth and base your understandings on it or have you been given some personal revelations about which you find some faint reflections in scripture?Do you really fear God? Yes I fear God. Maybe sometimes not as much as I should. Life is complex. And it is my opinion that most churches do not implement the true teachings of the holy writ concerning herself. And so, its just another small indication, that the church is somewhat sick, even as some motives present behind this dialogue could perhaps indicate.
I approach the Word of God with soul-sincerity, as sincere as I know to be.
“Do you believe He has revealed His nature in the bible and in creation?” I believe the Bible has disclosed unto his nature, yes. Creation speaks of his ways in a kind of principle form, albeit, carries in itself, both death and life forces. And God is only Zoe, the highest form or quality of life.
“Do you believe scripture is the truth and base your understandings on it or have you been given some personal revelations about which you find some faint reflections in scripture?”
Let me see if I can anticipate your motive and brain thinking, when you ask such a question. Your probably wanting to use the “no scripture is of any private interpretation”, is that right?
The truth of the matter is, everyone is an individual and sees through an individual perspective. It is only what is revealed by the leading and illumination of the Holy Spirit concerning the scriptures, that the true meaning and interpretation can be found. The Holy Spirit is working with flawed vessels. Most of the time 'those who think they know' do not give him the light of day. The Pharisees have proven that. Many denominations have in some way followed suit. You'll have to do a comparitive study on the makings of a scriptural church, and not the traditional one that has past on down to us via, the structure of the Roman Catholics..and then allow the Holy Spirit opportunity to reveal scriptural understanding.
You may find that it is the ego of man who is largely running the show. I tend to think this is largely due to the church finding herself through millenia, having to defend herself over one thing or another. But that is a whole other topic.
But it probably has a whole lot to do with why we have so many variations of belief in the Body of Christ. The people who wrote the bible were moved by the Holy Spirit..this is the reason that it is of 'no private interpretation'..ironally, we have a huge population of christians who do not even know him that well at all! So we have whole groups of people fed indoctrinations out of touch with that that is of no individualized interpretation.
nick, I attempted again and again to answer your questions. Yet you have choosen to ignore mine. WWJD?
I find myself thinking I may be dealing with a spirit here, out of touch with the christ-like one and have to discontinue dialogue. What say ye?
Hi JM,
My point is that truth comes from two sources that are really one, the written Word and the Spirit of truth that wrote that Word through men, and if we all were blessed by the promised Spirit of God we would have the unity in Christ that we are meant to have.That blessing is available to all in Christ who seek it.
Lk 11
” 9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
If we all were to be God fearing followers of Jesus we would be grasping close to the Word and abiding in it, and searching for these precious blessings and the truth that binds us together from them, then all the other sources would be seen for what vanities they truly are surely?
That is how the church, the body of Christ was designed to function, in unity.
Eph 4
” 3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.”
2Cor 3
” 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
1Cor 12
“11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.”
The Spirit makes us one in Christ in God.
Hi JM,
You say
“The truth of the matter is, everyone is an individual and sees through an individual perspective.”
Jesus said
” 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. “I think if we have the Spirit of God to see the kingdom,
then I think individual differences would tend to be diminished
as to what we see.Hi jm,
“nick, I forget where it is you might stand concerning the ..what?? ..triune nature of God? Are you advocating that God the Father and his Son as two individual beings both existed before creation?”
Yes, the Son begotten from the Father in the beginning.
“If Jesus always was The Word..the 'being made' and inheriting should not apply”
Yes, they are the receiving of glory after his successful mission.
“Christ is the very power and word of the Triune Godhead.”
No triune godhead in scripture but the Son was a vessel for,and an instrument in the hands of, the father.
“Jesus, as the Son of Man (the second man Adam) had the Word incarnate his being..as the last man Adam. “
Yes the Word, the monogenes son, partook of flesh by Mary and God. He was not a new pure sinless creation, but inherited through Mary all the problems men have being made like to us, and he overcame them and never sinned thus completely fulfilling the law and gaining fully the human inheritance through Abraham.
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