The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hi T8,

You are not fooling anyone by your attempt to say that I am stuck on Pauls words.

I have made it clear several times in my previous posts that I believe that the phrase “many gods” does not refer to actual divinities but either to false divinities, or other types of authorities and powers who are nonetheless not actually divine.

That is why he specifically uses the phrase “so called gods”.

This is why translators use lower case gods, not Gods, or put the word in inverted commas “gods” to show that he is not actually talking about divinities

I have also made it clear that when the Bible says we have the divine nature that I believe it is an adjectival description of our nature, it doesn’t actually mean that we are divine.

I have made this point several times now, and I am getting tired of repeating it.

You however have clearly stated that you believe those words to signify actual divinities.

I do not have a problem with Pauls words, I do not even have a problem with you interpreting them literally to mean the existence of many actual Gods.

I just have a problem with your claim that your belief in many Gods is not polytheism.

It clearly is, and it is clearly you who is in a repetitive loop trying to make sense of your logically impossible statements.

You are obviously unable to give me an answer because it is IMPOSSIBLE to explain that you are not a polytheist when you believe IN MORE THAN ONE GOD.

You are the one who should just admit it instead of carrying on this ridiculous spectacle.

November 7, 2003 at 8:34 pm#15262

Participant

Dearest Brothers T8 & Global,

I am 27 years old, and have been a Christian all of my life. I have always believed in the Trinity doctrine. I have recently been asked by God to search out even this doctrine. Until now, I NEVER even thought of questioning this doctrine, after all, John 1:1 & 14 says it all. But the Lord asked be to give these Christians some credit, and at least LOOK at what THEY have to say about the verses regarding "Jesus is God." Which, in turn has led me to your posts. They have been helping me a lot, and I thank you both for them. You see, if we always agreed, we would never grow. God is ripping my "foundations" out from under me, and replacing them with only HIM as a foundation. One of those ingredients to my foundation has always been "Jesus is God."

I hope that my perspective on your postings my help, Dear Global. What I see T8 is saying, is exactly what Paul is saying. He is saying there is only one Divinity, that is our Heavenly Father, YHWH. Now through our eventual transparency (sanctification), His divinity will shine through us. (which is the Kingdom message taught from Matthew through Revelation). Just as you, Global, must believe as a trinitarian…that it is only THROUGH JESUS that we are sanctified…that doesn’t mean that you are God. That means that you have the image of God…IMAGE OF GOD…through the transparency He has given you so that HE may shine THROUGH YOU. (but it is always Him that is the light, you are just the bulb that He uses, He is the electricity that brings the light to the bulb). So that is what T8 is saying, yes we will be LIKE GOD (as I am like my father, I have his blood, I come from him), but how can we actually be God?

Now I have a question for you, Global. How do you explain verses like "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" I am confused as to the trinitarian explanation of so MANY of these verses, where Jesus separates himself from the Father…is He God or isn’t He? IF so, how can He be asking HImself…(and why for that matter, God knows why!) why HImself has forsaken Himself??? Have always wondered about this one, and just explained it, "Well in this part of Jesus’ tribulation, he was Jesus the human" but how can that be? He is either God or He isnt.

Thank you both for your generous open-ness. I pray that God will use you to help me in this trying time in my life.

Peace Be in Your Hearts

SHN

November 8, 2003 at 12:25 pm#15277

Participant

To SHN,

Thx for expressing your understanding of this situation. I am truly here to learn truth and have always maintained that if I am in error and can be shown to be in error, then I would be the first to admit my mistake and conform to the truth as it is presented to me in order to find favour with God and to help those around me.

I am here to learn the truth for my own good and for the good of those I may influence. I am not here to say I am right and everyone else is wrong for even I know that such an attitude is foolish.

I do admit to having a dislike of the traditions of mens, as they seem to me to be excuses to err from the truth and to have that wayward thinking accepted as godly.

I applaud your faith in that you allowed God to challenge you on something that you would not have questioned by yourself. I have had a similar experience to you and it does seem crazy to question something that most believers regard as not only a pillar of truth or the pillar of truth. But there is ample warning in scripture of a great falling away and many being led away by teachers drawing people to themselves. In addition we know that the Devil decieves the whole world and then there is that mysterious passage of scripture in Revelation that talks about ‘Mystery Babylon the Mother of all Harlots’. Even history shows us that there was a Reformation, so such a challenge is certainly not a new thing.

In the end I think the only way we can survive from the onslaught of lies in this world is to hear from God and obey his voice, even if it seems like the craziest thing to do in our own mind.

I have always maintained that such a person will be blessed beyond description. For blessed are those who believe and have not seen. Blessed are those who obey God even to the destruction of their own flesh or reputation. For if we are truly crucified with Christ, then we make ourselves of no reputation in order for Christ to live in us and so he can recieve the glory of his Church and glorify his God and our God.

November 8, 2003 at 12:26 pm#15294

Participant

Hi Global,

Your quotes are in gray.

I have made it clear several times in my previous posts that I believe that the phrase many gods does not refer to actual divinities but either to false divinities, or other types of authorities and powers who are nonetheless not actually divine. That is why he specifically uses the phrase so called gods. This is why translators use lower case gods, not Gods, or put the word in inverted commas gods to show that he is not actually talking about divinities

I agree with your description of “so called gods.” There are indeed many “gods” and many “lords”. We see lords in the Royal Family of England, we have landlords, there are Warlords. There are in fact many lords. But Jesus is the One Lord who has true authority over us and eventually all things. Once this is accomplished he will give pass that authority to God. All so called lords are actually under Christ who is seated above all creation. So it is with God. There are many gods/authorities, some false and others who are not. But there is one God who will eventually be over all and through all. All so called gods are under the authority and power of the one true God YHWH, whether they recognize him or not.

So what do I mean by gods. Well they are so called because they are either false, they are in authority of some kind or they are beings that are like God (the Father). Beings made in his image.

Look @ Psalm 82:6
“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Now if I say that we are gods because we are sons of the Most High, and you say that I am a polytheist because of that, then why is this thinking clearly demonstrated as truth in scripture.

Even Jesus Christ quoted this scripture in John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'.

So does Jesus teach Polytheism. Well maybe to your judgement yes, that is if you judge him with the measure you have judged me. But we both know that Jesus calls us gods because we are God's offspring or God's sons. It doesn't mean that we are God himself and it certainly doesn't promote Polytheism if we are gods.

Now read Galatians 4:8
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.

If the word 'gods;' is always false, then the above verse suggests that they were slaves to those who are not false gods and if it means to those in authority, then it must be saying that they were slaves to those who are not in authority. Anyway that is beside the point, it seems to me that there is the strong possibility that we can recognise a god by his nature and if humans do participate in that nature, then it could be one reason why sons of the Most High are referred to as gods.

We who submit to God actually submit to his nature and we are destined to participate in the divine nature. Surely that participation makes us divine in the same way that we can be holy just as He is. Yes we certainly can be holy, not of our own works but by the work of God. Is God light, yet we are the light of the world. Not of our own strength but because it is God's good pleasure to work through us and shine his light through us. We are the vessels as SHN put it and God shines his qualities through us. We only need to be clean/transparent in order to become his image.

If God gives and we recieve, do we not participate and become like him. If God is the Divine and he shares his nature with us, then how can we not be divine? God transforms us just by dwelling in us. Likewise if God is light and he shines his glorious light through us, then how can we not be light?

I have also made it clear that when the Bible says we have the divine nature that I believe it is an adjectival description of our nature, it doesn’t actually mean that we are divine.

Where is your proof for this interpretation. Our nature comes from Adam and isn't that nature condemned?

2 Peter 2:18
For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.

I personally have never read a verse that describes human nature as divine. As far as I know, human nature is not redeemed, it is condemned. Jesus didn't die to resurrect human nature, rather he died to save us (our souls) and to give us a new nature that cannot sin. Perhaps you can enlighten me here? How can human nature be divine in quality? This is what you appear to be saying.

I do not have a problem with Pauls words, I do not even have a problem with you interpreting them literally to mean the existence of many actual Gods. I just have a problem with your claim that your belief in many Gods is not polytheism.

If I believe the words of Christ and Paul and quote them and you call me a Polytheist, then who really has the problem here?

You are obviously unable to give me an answer because it is IMPOSSIBLE to explain that you are not a polytheist when you believe IN MORE THAN ONE GOD.

If Jesus calls us gods because we are sons of the Most High, then perhaps you could explain to me what Jesus is really saying?

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

2 Corinthians 10:4
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

None of the above scriptures are referring to the human nature. They all come from either God's glory, power or his nature and these things have been given to the Church. His Kingdom is inside us. We are indeed participating in his glory, nature and his power.

November 9, 2003 at 4:46 am#15307

Participant

Dearest T8,

Thank you for your reply! I agree that I will be blessed, because when the Father reveals Himself to you, your blessings become "anything from Him". In other words, though the world may see me as not very blessed in this world, or just a little blessed….they have no idea the blessings my heart receieves each day, moment that HE shares HIMSELF with me. My blessings are abundant, because I count HIM as THE blessing.

What’s more, you hit the mark in my situation. I am becoming a "heretic" as some would say, in the eyes of my family and friends…JUST FOR QUESTIONING THE MATTER!! Though it affected me deeply at first, I am so full of Joy that the Lord chose me to share Himself with…I don’t really mind. I know HE loves us all, but HE is taking me aside and revealing the "MYSTERY" to me! Praise Him for it! Thank Him, Thank Him!

God bless You and Yours,
Sandi (SHN)

November 11, 2003 at 3:45 pm#15335

Participant

Quote

Quote: from t8 on 6:26 am on Nov. 8, 2003
Hi Global,

Your quotes are in gray.

I have made it clear several times in my previous posts that I believe that the phrase many gods does not refer to actual divinities but either to false divinities, or other types of authorities and powers who are nonetheless not actually divine. That is why he specifically uses the phrase so called gods. This is why translators use lower case gods, not Gods, or put the word in inverted commas gods to show that he is not actually talking about divinities

I agree with your description of "so called gods." There are indeed many "gods" and many "lords". We see lords in the Royal Family of England, we have landlords, there are Warlords. There are in fact many lords. But Jesus is the One Lord who has true authority over us and eventually all things. Once this is accomplished he will give pass that authority to God. All so called lords are actually under Christ who is seated above all creation. So it is with God. There are many gods/authorities, some false and others who are not. But there is one God who will eventually be over all and through all. All so called gods are under the authority and power of the one true God YHWH, whether they recognize him or not.

So what do I mean by gods. Well they are so called because they are either false, they are in authority of some kind or they are beings that are like God (the Father). Beings made in his image.

Look @ Psalm 82:6
"I said, ‘You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.’

Now if I say that we are gods because we are sons of the Most High, and you say that I am a polytheist because of that, then why is this thinking clearly demonstrated as truth in scripture.

Even Jesus Christ quoted this scripture in John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’.

So does Jesus teach Polytheism. Well maybe to your judgement yes, that is if you judge him with the measure you have judged me. But we both know that Jesus calls us gods because we are God’s offspring or God’s sons. It doesn’t mean that we are God himself and it certainly doesn’t promote Polytheism if we are gods.

Now read Galatians 4:8
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.

If the word ‘gods;’ is always false, then the above verse suggests that they were slaves to those who are not false gods and if it means to those in authority, then it must be saying that they were slaves to those who are not in authority. Anyway that is beside the point, it seems to me that there is the strong possibility that we can recognise a god by his nature and if humans do participate in that nature, then it could be one reason why sons of the Most High are referred to as gods.

We who submit to God actually submit to his nature and we are destined to participate in the divine nature. Surely that participation makes us divine in the same way that we can be holy just as He is. Yes we certainly can be holy, not of our own works but by the work of God. Is God light, yet we are the light of the world. Not of our own strength but because it is God’s good pleasure to work through us and shine his light through us. We are the vessels as SHN put it and God shines his qualities through us. We only need to be clean/transparent in order to become his image.

I have also made it clear that when the Bible says we have the divine nature that I believe it is an adjectival description of our nature, it doesn’t actually mean that we are divine.

Where is your proof for this interpretation. Our nature comes from Adam and isn’t that nature condemned?

2 Peter 2:18
For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.

I personally have never read a verse that describes human nature as divine. As far as I know, human nature is not redeemed, it is condemned. Jesus didn’t die to resurrect human nature, rather he died to save us (our souls) and to give us a new nature that cannot sin. Perhaps you can enlighten me here? How can human nature be divine in quality? This is what you appear to be saying.

I do not have a problem with Pauls words, I do not even have a problem with you interpreting them literally to mean the existence of many actual Gods. I just have a problem with your claim that your belief in many Gods is not polytheism.

If I believe the words of Christ and Paul and quote them and you call me a Polytheist, then who really has the problem here?

You are obviously unable to give me an answer because it is IMPOSSIBLE to explain that you are not a polytheist when you believe IN MORE THAN ONE GOD.

If Jesus calls us gods because we are sons of the Most High, then perhaps you could explain to me what Jesus is really saying?

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

2 Corinthians 10:4
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

2 Peter 1:3
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

None of the above scriptures are referring to the human nature. They all come from either God’s glory, power or his nature and these things have been given to the Church. His Kingdom is inside us. We are indeed participating in his glory, nature and his power.

That is all very interesting but you still havent explained how your belief in many true divinities isnt polytheism, I am still waiting for your answer on this.

Be Well.

November 11, 2003 at 10:09 pm#15375

Participant

Quite easy Global, because I believe in what Paul and Jesus taught. They taught that the Lord our God is one God. This one God is the one that I worship and his name is Yahweh. This one true God begat a Son and created all things for him and through him.

The Son is not Yahweh, his name is Yahshua and God sent him into the world to die for our sins. Now God was in his Christ redeeming the world back to himself, so that God may be in all and through all. Today God can dwell in us by his Spirit and his redemptive plan continues on through his Church.

The Son is the express image of his Father, he is the visible image of the invisible God. He was begotten of the Father.

Now in time and through his Son, God is redeeming fallen humanity to be partners in the divine nature, so that we too can become the sons of God.

This is why Jesus will call us brethren and the Father calls us his children. So Jesus/Yahshua participated in the human nature so that he could destroy the works of the evil one and redeem us to become the sons of God, to enable us to participate in the divine nature.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Hebrews 2:14-17
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death,that is, the devil,
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.
17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Notice that Jesus was made like us in every way so that he could become the high priest in service to God.

Global, nowhere do I say that that there are multiple Most High Gods, on the contrary, I have been preaching all along that the Father is the one true God. It is you who worships multiple Gods. Just because I acknowledge the truth that there are many gods as indeed there are many gods, I also acknowledge that there is one true source of all things including all the gods (except false gods) and he is the Most High God.

I seem to remember somewhere the phrase God of God. Well I say that the God in identity begets gods, otherwise known as sons. The sons of God partake in the divine nature just as the Son of God does.

To be a child of God means that you will be like God. Is it too hard to believe that the children of God will partake in the nature of God.

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

November 12, 2003 at 4:20 pm#15409

Participant

You are again just restating your belief in one big god who you call the Most High God, and lots of smaller gods who you nonetheless have asserted are true divinities.

Please can you explain how this differs from polytheism?

November 12, 2003 at 8:30 pm#15127

Participant

I am explaining exactly what the scriptures say and it seems obvious that I acknowledge one God. That One God is one identity, not three. I teach from scripture and it is clear that I nor scripture teach Polytheism.

The one God is the Father. Again there is one Supreme God. One God over all and through all.

How much clearer do I need to be?

In the same way there is One Spirit, yet who can deny that there exist many spirits. Angels for example are Ministering Spirits.

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

1 Corinthians 12
8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

Numbers 27:16
“May the LORD , the God of the spirits of all mankind, appoint a man over this community

So Global, you can see that there are many spirits and we know that there is One Supreme Spirit. Similarly, there are many gods, but there is one Supreme God.

This teaching is not my own, you will find it in scripture and it is certainly not Polytheism. If you think it is Polytheism, then you do not understand scripture. If you still fail to see what I am saying after this post, then can I suggest that you pray and ask God about it.

November 12, 2003 at 10:45 pm#15138

Participant

Global,

Would you please answer my question, how it is that if Jesus is God, how he is constantly praying to the Father. The most questionable moment, being from His last visit to Gethsemene, to the cross where He cries, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me." I am so anxious for an explanation to this question.

Thank you for your time
In Christ, Sandi

November 12, 2003 at 10:51 pm#15629

Participant

In response to T8’s discussion with you Global,

Why is it so hard to understand that there is more than one god (lower case g) If there weren’t, what is the point of the first two commandments?? Does T8 worship any of these? I have never seen T8 give the glory to any of these "gods" , but only to the Living God of the Bible. Even we and satan and Jesus is referred to as "gods". But only because of the supreme maker of us. And so all of our, and I see all of T8’s, glorification should go to HIM. You must admit that scripture is FULL of reference to other gods. What is so hard to see about this?

In Christ,
Sandi

November 17, 2003 at 5:26 pm#15611

Participant

Hi T8,

Your last post proves that you are deliberately trying to avoid this question.

You have previously stated your belief in many true divinities, but when I ask you to explain how this is not polytheism, you just keep repeating that you only believe in one god.

Or you just say that the scriptures only teach one god.

I am asking you to reconcile that with your previously stated belief, not just to keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again.

You said:

“I acknowledge one God”

That is a lie, because you believe in many gods, in fact in the very same post you again repeat the statement –

“there are many gods”

You then add the qualifier –

“but there is one Supreme God.”

Yes, you YET AGAIN state your belief in one big god and many small gods, as you have been doing ad nauseum, but why don’t you actually answer the question –

“HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM POLYTHEISM?”

As you are obviously incapable of answering this question lets try a different approach, why don’t you answer the following questions –

“WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF MONOTHEISM?”

“WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF POLYTHEISM?”

“DO YOU THINK YOUR DEFINITIONS AGREE WITH THE ORDINARY DICTIONARY DEFINITIONS OF THOSE WORDS?”

November 17, 2003 at 5:34 pm#15589

Participant

Quote

Quote: from SHN on 4:51 pm on Nov. 12, 2003
In response to T8’s discussion with you Global,

In Christ,
Sandi

The Bible makes clear that when the word god is applied to other beings such as Satan etc, that they are not actually divine. i.e Satan is the god of this world because people worship the values he represents, he has a lot of influence in the world etc, but he is not a true divinity.

However T8 has stated that he believes that there are actually many true divinities, i.e he does not interpret those passages metaphorically but literally.

I am asking him to explain how that is different from polytheism.

It is irrelevant that he only worships one of the gods in his system, polytheism is not the worship of many gods, it is the belief in the existence of many gods.

November 17, 2003 at 5:37 pm#15575

Participant

Quote

Quote: from SHN on 4:45 pm on Nov. 12, 2003
Global,

Thank you for your time
In Christ, Sandi

You have answered your own question, he was praying to his Father, Jesus and the Father are different persons but the same God, I suggest you read my previous posts on the incarnation etc for a more comprehensive explanation.

November 17, 2003 at 8:14 pm#15401

Participant

Global,

I am going to stick to scripture rather than wander off into tradition and the philosophies of men. If you want to disprove my words then please use scripture. If you cannot, then you are arguing with me not because I am scripturally incorrect, but because my teaching does not agree with your tradition.

You haven't disproven the following points from scripture and these points are what I teach.

1) There is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.
2) That Jesus (on earth and in heaven) refers to the Father as his God and he says that he is also our God.
3) That we humans will be partners in the divine nature, excluding the unsaved of course.
4) That Christ is divine in nature, not identity.
5) That Jesus is the Son of God and we are the sons of God.
6) That Jesus taught that we are gods because we are children of the Most High. 7) Jesus said that he will call us brothers, yet to the Father we are his children.
8) Just as there is one Spirit, there are also many spirits. All spirits originally come from the Father who is the Supreme Spirit. He is the true God from whence came all things.
9) That there is One God, yet there exist many gods, who are called gods because they are either replace the true God making them false gods, they are beings in authority or partakers in the divine nature. But the one true God, the Divine is the Father. He is divine not only in nature, but in identity because he is the source of that divinity and he shares his nature just as he shares his Spirit and his love.
10) That Jesus doesn't know all things and acknowledges that the Father not only knows all things, but that Jesus himself only does what he sees his Father doing and says what he hears his Father speak. Jesus doesn't seek his own will, only the will of his Father. In other words, Jesus is subject to the Father in all things.

If you cannot disprove this from scripture then I would suggest that you give up because most of the readers here and most serious people who truly seek truth, want to see that it is backed up by scripture and not the traditions of men.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Mark 7:13
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

November 18, 2003 at 7:08 pm#15379

Participant

T8,

at the moment I am neither trying to prove nor disprove anything, I am trying to understand your beliefs.

If we do not understand your beliefs we can neither argue for them or against them.

Since this is a discussion board I think we are all entitled to ask for explanations and clarifications of what you have said, but you continually refuse to answer questions when they become embarrassing for you and I think everyone will draw their own conclusions from that.

I note your continued failure to answer the questions I posed, I do not think there is any reason why you cannot answer these questions, so I will try one more time:

1) WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF MONOTHEISM?

2) WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF POLYTHEISM?

3) DO YOU THINK YOUR DEFINITIONS AGREE WITH THE ORDINARY DICTIONARY DEFINITIONS OF THOSE WORDS?

November 18, 2003 at 8:11 pm#15336

Participant

Global,

It is like the word heresy, in that it has certain meanings to some people, yet we know that some reputable scientists and Christians were accused of it. So these labels of men are useless in determining truth, for they were forged by fallible man and not under the inspiration of God’s Spirit.

This is why we should stick to scripture in building up our arguments. If there is no scripture to back up what you or I am saying, then I think that it can be mentioned in the context of an argument, but it cannot be proven.

I know that Australia is not mentioned in the bible directly at least, yet it exists. But when we are talking about major Christian doctrine it will be mentioned. If it is not, then it is probably a false doctrine or it is surmised by reference to many scriptures that show a pattern. Although a foundational doctrine will be preached clearly because it is necessary in order to build up truth.

Global, I am not interested in the labels of men, for those labels have been wrong before and condemned good things. I remind you of the word heresy again.

I haven’t even looked up the meanings of the words you talk about and neither do I want to, lest I become tainted with prejudice and rely on the philosophies of men. I am not interested in going where you want me to go.

I am safe if I stick to scripture and this way I can preach with confidence what is found in them. Did Jesus say to the Devil when he was tempted by him, "be away from me , for you are preaching polytheism". No he said "It is written".

You know what I believe, because I have spelled it out to you, but it appears that you need a label. You need me to say I am a Mormon, or I am a Polytheist, or a Monotheist or you want to argue the meanings of these words because that way you can argue better with me. This shows that you rely on the thinkings of men as you obviously do because of your acceptance of mens creeds. But to truly judge something you must see the heart and judge it’s fruit. A label is not only shallow, it is often wrong. Spiritually minded people see the heart, not the outward appearance.

It appears that you cannot argue my points and answer my questions from scripture and I think that if you cannot do that, then you shouldn’t be arguing against me, unless you can find fault in my teaching using scripture as your guide. At which point I will certainly listen because I seek the truth, I am not trying to defend my reputation at the expense of truth itself.

You know what I believe and you have the scriptures. You need nothing else, but Divine guidance. Let us not trust in worldly things in order to gain truth.

If you cannot argue with me and use scripture to prove your words, then I will assume that you have given up.

November 19, 2003 at 4:47 pm#15645

Participant

Hi T8,

I am not talking about labels or doctrines, I am talking about words and the simple meanings of words.

If we cannot agree on the meanings of words then all discussion is useless as we will never be sure what the other person is saying.

You constantly say you only want to use scripture, but scripture is also made up of words, so unless we agree on a common definition of those words then even scripture becomes useless, since I could make it mean anything I wanted it to mean simply by having a different definition of certain words than you do.

Imagine if I then took your position and even refused to tell you what I think certain words mean, not only could you not be sure you understood what I meant you would be incapable of even discussing it with me, the argument would be reduced to pure farce.

So your claim –

“You know what I believe, because I have spelled it out to you,”

Is another lie because you have constantly refused to explain exactly what you do believe.

That is why I do not think it is unreasonable to ask you for a simple definition of the words monotheism and polytheism.

There is no reason for you not to give it, and if you continue to refuse I think everyone reading this will be entitled to draw the conclusion that you are withdrawing from the discussion because you know that the argument is taking a direction where you will be proved to have unsustainable views.

And lets be clear here, I am not the one giving up, it is you.

November 19, 2003 at 8:57 pm#15478

Participant

Sorry Global,

But you have to respect my wishes, it is what I choose and my request is not unreasonable at all. If I make claims and back them up with scripture, then use the scripture to disprove me.

I do not have an opinion nor understand the meanings of these words that you mention, so it is useless for me to engage in your requests. Neither am I interested in learning the meanings.

I am not interested in the major points of view and labels and meanings of words that label certain peoples belief like heretic, polytheism, unitarians, oneness, post tribulation etc. To me these words only serve to reinforce the doctrines of men. I feel that if I start with such knowledge and it’s associated prejudice, then I would be reading scripture through this filter and it would only prove to hinder my honest and innocent search for truth. If I become like a child in order to learn truth, then you have to respect my decision.

You nor anyone shouldn’t push people into things they do not want. I think that my reasoning in this decision is fair and sound and I ask that you respect that.

You never provided an answer for my earlier questions and now you want shift the argument to theologies and labels given by men. I want to stick to that which is inspired of God, not man.

If you cannot say "it is written", then there is no point in continuing the discussion with you and if that is the case, then I invite any other Trinitarian to take your place, so long as we back up our words with scripture. Remember that the category of this discussion is placed under Biblical Discussions for a reason.

I will remind you one more time Global,

If I say there are many gods and you call me a Polytheist for that, then you are calling Paul a Polytheist. Go and argue that one with Paul or pray to God about it. The only way you can seemingly condemn me for preaching Paul’s words is to take the conversation away from scripture and into the anaylitical devices of men of which I see the cunning of the Evil One and I refuse to participate.

If it turns out that you cannot argue using scripture, then I can only conclude that you have no scripture to argue with. If I am wrong, then provide the scripture or a sound interpretation please.

The word of God is the sword of the Spirit. You or I cannot defend truth using man made weapons.

My request is reasonable and safe for both of us.

November 20, 2003 at 2:38 am#15462