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The definition of the word “beginning” makes it mutually exclusive to “eternal past”, eternity has no beginning or ending, though many things will “begin” within eternity.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 10 2006,13:45) Actually everything that “begins” does so within eternity.
I have heard many who stand on the trinity doctrine try to use this very same argument. They say, that if God thought it, even before it was, is the same thing as being written or spoken. Now, how evil is mankind. To make a boast that they know the very mind of God. Here is what our Lord and Saviour said to do.Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
So such thinking as to say that a beginning is the same as eternal comes from the evil devices of the minds of men. Do not try to read the mind of God.
LET IT BE WRITTEN, LET IT BE SAID.
Oxy might have left because he felt persecuted rather than counseled.
He himself said that he questioned the Trinity doctrine, however, I believe most likely (just as in my past experience) he is confused and really trying to figure the truth out the best he can.
We can't just assume he left knowing beyond doubt he was wrong but refusing to change. Anyone who truly loves and fears God would never willingly refuse to change.
Reality is black and white, true…….but human experience is often grey. That is the heart of much confusion in this world.
I will pray for him.
Hi Is 1 18,
“If I say that Jesus was the “result of the union of the Holy Spirit and a woman” I have spoken scripturally.”This is something you have grasped and it should be straightforward now for you to state that
The HOLY SPIRIT
is an aspect of God the Father
and thus the Father is truly
the Father of JesusSo we are back to a binity at least.
Or is you can accept Jesus
is the monogenes Son of God
trinity theory has evaporated.Hi Elidad
“Paul gave us this answer in 1 Cor 8” 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. “
This is still the answer that scripture gives FOR US.
You say
“Can we like Thomas address Jesus as, “My Lord and my God”? (John 20:28)”But did he?
Jn 14
” 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. “
Or was Thomas just an attentive disciple?
He learned from the mouth of Jesus
that to see Jesus
was to “see” the Father too
living and working in him.Hi Is 1.18
” The Greek word for “with” ( pros) means “to, towards” (i.e. face to face in relationship) when used with the accusative as it is here (Thayer, p.541). The word is generally translated “to” or “toward” (NKJV) or “unto” (KJV; see John 1:29,42,47; 2:3; 3:2,4,20,26). So this phrase cannot be referring to “something said”, or an abstract concept such as a plan/purpose/wisdom/power coming from God. Moreover, the verb “was” (Gr: eimi) in John 1:1b is the used in the imperfect tense. That denotes a continuous action of the Word being in the past, or simply put: whenever the “beginning” was, the logos was already in existence. By using this construction John was making it clear that logos is without a beginning.”
The beginning
is the era before time and beyond our comprehension unto eternity surely.
What is plain then is that the Word was WITH rather than IN GOD then?
I agree with that.Hi Mercy,
The work of the Spirit takes time.
It is like the wind or like the planting of a seed.
Mk 3
” 28For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. “Paul took time
Gal 1
” 15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.”
It took me 20 years to wake up.
Hi Elidad,
“If the Judges of Israel were looked upon as being God's or as God when spoken of in a singular sense, does it not follow that Christ, the Son of God, can be spoken about and referred to in the same sense?”Neither the judges nor Moses were worshiped as God.
Hi Is 1.18
“You say He emptied Himself of his Deity to become a man – I categorically dispute that and offer Col 2:9 as my substantive evidence.”Col 2.8-10
” 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:”
So if the fullness of deity DWELLS IN CHRIST then in what way does this make him a deity as well as what dwells in him?
I had a conviction in my heart that the Trinity doctrine was error not too long after my conversion. But I was a young christian and older men of the faith worried about my doubt when I brought it up. So I thought it wise not to rock the boat, so to speak.
I concluded that I must be wrong, if everybody else believed in the Trinity and I didn't.
It took 10 years for me to officially stand by the conviction in my heart and I am very glad I did. But what gave me the courage to do so, were the scriptures that backed up what I believed and not just hints, but clear teaching.
I am now free from that tradition of man, and it has removed the confusion in trying to understand God and the scriptures where God is mentioned. In other words the message in the bible is much clearer to me now.
Quote (Elidad @ Sep. 10 2006,12:46) Hi Is 1:18. I have great admiration for your tenacity, perserverance and evident scholarship. I thank you for making considerbale effort to respond to my comments, endeavouring to clarify your point of view. You have covered much ground, too much for me to give a “knee jerk” or “shoot from the hip” reply.
Thanks for the compliments…and for not taking offense at the inherent bluntness of some of my comments.Quote The day is almost spent for me here, as there is need to retire soon, in order to rise early tomorrow to journey across country some 400 kms or more. Thus, there is no way I can hope to do justice to the issues you invite comment on, for a day or so. Please bear with me, and I will try and get back to you later in the week. Keep checking your 'mail' box.
Take all the time you like. And if you could mail your reply to me (by PM or email), as well as post it, I would appreciate it. I tend to come and go quite a bit in this forum.Quote There are so many issues tied up in your understanding, that prayer is necessary to help me make further response. This will form my deliberations, as I journey tomorrow.
Travel safely Elidad, and I trust that you will be praying that YHWH reveals the truth of this matter to you – rather than a well-reasoned refutation.
Blessings
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2006,08:40) Not sure what you are going on about here. But I have taught all along that the word “theos” must be read in context to determine who it is speaking of.
The Most High “theos” is completely different to the “theos” of this age. The point is that when you look at the big picture and the uses of “theos” in scripture, you then have to admit that to say that Christ is YHWH because some verses apply “theos” to him is a weak and rediculous argument to make. Because men and angels are also called “theos” and we know that we are not YHWH, even though we are made in his image.
Is that clear for you now?
We are to believe that there is one God the Father.
It doesn't matter what you say, or how many times you say it, there is one God the Father. Pretending that there is one God the Father, Son, & Spirit, is never going to make it come true.
The truth existed before you and it still exists. God isn't going to change his mind because of your belief is he?
T8,So you are saying that Jesus is not God? Do you not believe scripture? The Father made the Son God and the Son will be God until the all things are finished. Yes, there is only one supreme God, who is God of all creation, but to not call Jesus God is not of God. For even the Father calls the Son God. Who are you to not do the same? Are you greater then God the Father that you think you should not call Jesus God?
John 1 KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
You have to view it this way. God who is Holy and cannot have any affilliation with sin, begat his Son in his own image and the Son, who was give all the authority of the Godhead, created all of creation by the will of the Father by the unction of the Holy Spirit. The Son is the perfect will of the Father and is the will of the Father. The Son's will is to do the will of the Father only. The Son by the will of the Father came and died in the flesh so that man could have redemption.
God the Father had a plan. And once his plan is completed, the Son will give the authority of the Godhead back unto the Father so that the Father will be all in all. 1 Cor. 15:28
For there is only one God.Hi H,
Does the Son not have a will of his own?
You say
“The Son is the perfect will of the Father and is the will of the Father. The Son's will is to do the will of the Father only. The Son by the will of the Father came and died in the flesh so that man could have redemption”
Lk 22
“42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”The Son will give back the authority of the Godhead to the Father, for it is the will of the Father and the Son does only the will of the Father.
Lk 22
“42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”As for this verse, by the Son saying this did not make it so, and the will of the Father was still fulfilled as was all things. To disobey would have not been the perfect will of the Father.
Hi H,
Then why did he speak of his own will?
“”42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”Nick, this is what is funny about you. You are trying to make it seem that Jesus had his own will. In doing so, you would be able to say that he could not possibly be God. Yet, you are foiled again. For Jesus, by saying what he said proved one thing. And that is that he is not God the Father, but God the Son. And the Son did the will of the Father.
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