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If we are made in the image of God and in the likeness of God, albeit God is infinite in scope, and we finite..then there is a kind of reflection going on here.
Jesus as the Christ said, 'I came forth out from the Father. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Thou shalt live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. The Word that was with God and was God came out of the mouth of God…'and there was light'.
Quote (Elidad @ Sep. 09 2006,13:43) Hi Is 1:18, Are you not getting hung up on pedantics? Please answer a question for me. Did God (Yahweh) make Moses God to Pharoah? Exodus 7:1
Hi Elidad,
In answer to your question – no, He made him “as” God. Obviously God did not give Moses the ultimate ontological upgrade!!Quote My comment, derived from this, was, that in the same way that God (Yahweh) made Moses God to Pharoah, he has made Jesus God to us.
The problem here is that nowhere in scripture are we told that the Father MADE the Son God. That's your assumption, but it's unsubstantiated by scripture. Here is how NT scripture delineates these two figures:HEBREWS 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house [Jesus Christ] hath more honour than the house [Moses]. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.Here the glory of Moses and the Jesus are contrasted using the analogy of the builder and the building. In one breath the writer of Hebrews writes that the builder of the house (i.e. Moses in a narrow context and humankind [v6] in a broader one) is Jesus Christ – and in the very next states that He that built all things is God” The clear inference is that the logos is the God who created us. This supports the VERY high Christology evident in the first chapter of Hebrews.
Moses = building
Yahshua = builderMoses is a created “thing”, the Pre-incarnate Yahshua was His Creator.
Quote The fact that I said “a God”, picking up the way it is expressed in the KJV, is beside the point. Some translations read “as God” or “thee God”. The issue is, the Scriptures state that the LORD (Yahweh) made Moses God to Pharoah.
No, He made His “as” God. There is a difference Elidad. Here's some questions for you to ponder:- Was Moses said to be with God in the beginning (John 1:1)?
- Was Moses credited for making “all things” (Col 1:16)?
- Is Moses credited for “upholding all things” (Heb 1:3)?
- Did Moses claim he could raise himself from the dead, like Yahshua did (John 2:19-21)?
- Do NT authors apply OT references of YHWH directly to Moses (Heb 1:10)?
- Was Moses said to have fulfilled prophecies that YHWH made OF HIMSELF (John 19:37)?
- Will it be that everyone that all who call on the name of Moses be saved (Rom 1:13)?
- Will every knee bow at the name of Moses (Phil 2:9)?
- Will every tongue confess that Moses is Lord? (Phil 2:10)?
- Are titles that are exclusively YHWH's applied to Moses (e.g. Alpha and Omega, Rev 22:13)?
Quote Based on this, why do you see a problem with the LORD (Yahweh) making Jesus God to us, as conveyed in Hebrews 1:8?
If you can show me conclusively that The Father made the Son God the groundwork will have been laid for further discussion.Quote According to your viewpoint, it seems that in verse 9, you have Yahweh, annointing Yahweh. Please tell me who annointed who and what did the annointing signify?
The Logos who existed in the frorm of God, emptied Himself and took on the form of a bond servant. He was made for a little while lower than the angels (positionally/functionally – not ontologically). So according to my viewpoint the man Yahshua was annointed by His Father. I surmise that the independant usage of his divine attributes, privileges, prerogatives were restored. What He emptied Himself of to become a man were returned.Quote Whilst we are here in Hebrews, would you also please let me know how Christ can be “appointed heir of all things”[/size], if He is the Supreme God, who owns all things. How can he inherit that which your view alleges He already owns? How can He be both the benefactor and the heir?
Here is something I wrote in a post to Seminarian, I hope it goes some way to explaining my position:Quote Hmmm….my thoughts: ‘kurios’ has a multiplicity of meanings. There are instances in NT scripture where it clearly does not indicate deity, but rather expresses the authority and lordship arising from and pertaining to ownership: Matthew 18:27
“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. (cf. Ch 18: 31, 32, 34)Luke 10:2
And He was saying to them, ” The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.And instances where is clearly does:
Luke 4:8
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ' YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'”Luke 20:37
“But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOBThis of course is true of Yahshua as well. He Lord in more than one sense. He is THE Lord, an unmistakable reference to deity, and He is also “Lord of” something, a reference to His authority. Not always does it directly reference his deity. In this instance it does:
Romans 10:9-13
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”Romans 9:13 is a direct quotation of Joel 2:32, where the “Lord” is YHWH. Paul applies this to Jesus.
But not in these verses:
Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. (cf. Rev 1:18)Luke 6:5
And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”Acts 10:36
36″The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)Lord in these passages is qualified, and are therefore are not a direct reference to his deity per se, but allude to the authority and prerogatives bestowed on Him by the Father as a result of His incarnation, death and resurrection:
Daniel 7:13-14
13″I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14″And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.Ephesians 1:20-22
20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church.Philippians 2:8-11
8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross! 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the FatherHebrews 2:10
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.Here is another example of what I mean:
Romans 10:12
12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;“Lord” is used twice in this verse. The first instance is a reference to the person of Christ – His title of deity. The second “Lord” alludes to His ownership by inheritance. He has inherited all – all that the Father has is His.
So the verse you gave me, Acts 2:36, which is manifestly post-resurrection in context, is not a direct allusion to His deity, but to that which He inherited – the authority given to Him by the Father. That is how He was “made Lord” Seminarian. And we KNOW that Yahshua is Lord in more than one sense because He is called “Lord” in scripture countless times before He was madeLord (post-resurrection). Understand?
So again, you have failed to produce valid testimony against the doctrine of the trinity.
In anticipation of this objection which you will likely raise with me “Gee Is 1:18, if Yahshua really is YHWH why would he have to be given anything??”.
This is my reply:
Philippians 2:6-9
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name.Key points:
- Existed in the morphe of God (vs 6)
- Did not regard the equality He had with God a thing to be grasped (Gr. Harpagamos = retained, prized) (vs 7)
- EMPTIED Himself and took on the form (Gr. Morphe) of a bondservant, and was made in the likeness of men. (vs 8)
- Was obedient unto death.
- FOR THIS REASON, God exalted Him.
In 2 Corinthians 8:9, Paul puts it this way
“For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.”
In what sense was He rich? He existed in the form of God, had equality with the God, and in fact WAS God (Joh 1:1), then surrendered it to become a bondservant. All the divine prerogatives, the independent divine attributes associated with His pre-terrestrial existence were relinquished at the incarnation. At the resurrection they were rightly returned to Him by the Father, in glory.
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.Quote Also whilst thinking about this, please let me know how Christ, if He is the Supreme God; the Almighty God, can have a head who is God? 1 Corinthains 11:3 says “the head of Christ is God”
Okay, let me see if I have this right…….
The fact that the Son subjects Himself to His Father proves He must be a lower class of being. Hmmm….1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.If you want to use verses like 1 Corinthians 11:3 or 15:28 to disprove Christ’s deity then, using the same logic, you must also accept that these verses disprove a woman’s humanity, since the head of a woman is man. But this is not so, the woman is still 100% human, she is not any LESS human than her husband. Headship is solely a function of position/authority – NOT ontology. Its a clearly taught biblical principle, but has no bearing on ontology.
Quote If God, according to your concept is three persons in one, then this text should be read as: “the head of Christ is the trinity” or “the head of Christ is Father, Son and Holy Spirit” or “the head of Christ is three persons in one person”
I'm sorry but I have to be honest and say this argument, that is used with increasing frequency here, is utterly rediculous. The Greek word 'theos' is used predominantly by NT authors to designate the person of the Father of Yahshua. Sometimes it is used of Yahshua. The Greek word 'kurios' is used predominantly by NT authors to designate the person of the Yahshua. Sometimes it is used of His Father. 'Theos' is not a stronger appelative than 'kurios', actally they are used interchangably throughout the NT. Clearly every NT u
sage of 'theos' is not a reference to the triune God, no trinitarian has ever asserted this in this forum, so it's a straw man argument.Quote Just one last question. In John 20:17 we read: “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.“
Jesus has a God because He is also a man, born of woman and born under the law (Gal. 4:4). As a man, if He does not have His Father as His God He would be a transgressor of that law. The fact that His Father is His God is a natural consequence of His incarnation. Verses like this just affirm Christ’s humanity – something that trinitarians do not dispute. If you want to set about disproving the doctrine it might be more productive to try disproving His deity.Quote Who was Jesus referring to here when He said, “My God”? Was He saying, “My three in one God”? Who was the God that Jesus was going to ascend to?
No, I believe he was referring to His Father.Quote May reason and clear thinking prevail, in terms of Proverbs 4:5-7.
Yes.Blessings
Hi j,
The Christ was revealed to John the Baptist by a sign he had been shown to look out for. Before that he did not know who the Messiah was.Jn 1
” 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.”
But Christ came in the flesh.
1Jn 4
” 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:”
The Word who was with God became flesh in his mother's womb.
Jn 1
” 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
and
” 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me”
The Word did not anoint Jesus.
Jesus is the Word.Rev 19
“12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.”
The Spirit of God anointed Jesus.
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”I think it's time to say bye bye. This place has a spirit of confusion ministering for all who dare travel these pages.
I'm off for Godly ground.
Hi Is 1.18
You say about Moses
“In answer to your question – no, He made him “as” God. Obviously God did not give Moses the ultimate ontological upgrade!!”
Then could Jesus have been made AS GOD too?No one denies the divine origins of the Son shown in Phil 2.5-6
But you are shy to discuss the kenosis of Phil 2.5-6.
What did Jesus bring with him into our state?
We are told he was like to us in all ways except sin do since we do not naturally have divine abilities I think we can confidently say he did not either.Heb 2
“14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;”
and
“16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren,”
And 4.15
” 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin”And where did he get his power and authority?
Was it of his own divine nature and origins?
No according to scripture.Matt 28
” 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”Acts 10
“38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. “So if he was like us,
then anointed by God with power and authority,
was he not as Joseph to Pharaoh?well, were about to go in circles, so..
there is no question that the Word became flesh. If it was from the womb, why was there no recorded miracles by the Anointed One (Christ) prior to his baptism? It was only after this time that Jesus the Christ first began preaching saying, Repent for the kingdom of God is come. Why not anytime earlier? Only after this event proclaim, 'the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, for he has 'anointed' me? Christened me?
If Jesus was always the Christ, why did he have to go to the death of the cross before scripture tells us that as a result..he has been given a name which is above every name?
Or why in Hebrews 1:5 we read, (considering verse 3 where it says he purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of Majesty on high..now verse 5b..'Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6:And again, when he brings the first begotten into the world'..this expression 'first begotten' is in line with another scripture that has anounced 'first begotten from the dead'
only then, can the above claims be made in my estimation.
upon completion of his mission in servitude to the will of the Father, Jesus became the first born from the dead and was highly exalted to a status he had not known prior.
At least that is what it looks like to me.
Hi j,
You say
“there is no question that the Word became flesh. If it was from the womb, why was there no recorded miracles by the Anointed One (Christ) prior to his baptism? It was only after this time that Jesus the Christ first began preaching saying, Repent for the kingdom of God is come. Why not anytime earlier? Only after this event proclaim, 'the Spirit of the Lord is upon me, for he has 'anointed' me? Christened me?”
Because he EMPTIED himself and became like unto us and only when he was baptised was he anointed with the Holy Spirit of God in power, was he enabled to do works of God, works of power.Hi J,
He was the secret of God, appointed to his role from before time. He was revealed as the messiah and this is shown in Hebrews 1Heb 1
” 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.”
and then Hebrews goes back and shows us his origins with the Father and then his coming as man.
Heb 1
“5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:”
Hi J,
Ps 2 is used in many ways in the new testament, sometimes literally as in Heb 1 and at other times in type as in Acts 13.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 09 2006,20:43) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Sep. 09 2006,17:53) Nick, did you ever answer my question? Is Jesus God. Should we call Jesus, the Son of God, God?
Hi H,
Why should we call our Lord, God?
You judge yourself. For if God the Father himself calls the Son God, and you deny the Son as God, then you deny the Father also. For none can come unto the Father, but through the Son.ummm
Seriously though where does scripture instruct us to call our Lord, God?
If it does not do so why do you accuse me from outside of scripture?Quote (Oxy @ Sep. 10 2006,17:10) I think it's time to say bye bye. This place has a spirit of confusion ministering for all who dare travel these pages. I'm off for Godly ground.
Oxy leaves while ignoring my pleas to please provide a reason why when you replace the word “God” in the bible with the word “Trinity” it nullifies the word of God.E.g., John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.Becomes
John 3:16
“For the Trinity so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.I clearly showed Oxy 100 scriptures that he nullifies with his doctrine of a triune God. Those scriptures are found here:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htmSo Oxy left knowing that his doctrine nullified the word of God, and yet continues to do so.
Oxy then accused us of confusion, when the confusion he speaks of actually comes not from those who search scripture and use scripture as a base for teaching, it comes from those who promote creeds, philosophies, and the doctrines of man such as the 3rd century Trinity doctrine.
As it is written: “we should always be prepared to provide a reason as to why be believe”. If someone can't provide the reason, then why promote and teach it?
Isn't it obvious by now that the Trinity creates confusion. If we ALL stuck to scripture and let it teach us rather than force scripture to fit our predefined belief, there would be no confusion at all.
The Trinity doctrine is confusion.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 09 2006,19:04) Quote (Elidad @ Sep. 09 2006,13:43) Hi Is 1:18, Are you not getting hung up on pedantics? Please answer a question for me. Did God (Yahweh) make Moses God to Pharoah? Exodus 7:1
Hi Elidad,
In answer to your question – no, He made him “as” God. Obviously God did not give Moses the ultimate ontological upgrade!!Quote My comment, derived from this, was, that in the same way that God (Yahweh) made Moses God to Pharoah, he has made Jesus God to us.
The problem here is that nowhere in scripture are we told that the Father MADE the Son God. That's your assumption, but it's unsubstantiated by scripture. Here is how NT scripture delineates these two figures:HEBREWS 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house [Jesus Christ] hath more honour than the house [Moses]. 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.Here the glory of Moses and the Jesus are contrasted using the analogy of the builder and the building. In one breath the writer of Hebrews writes that the builder of the house (i.e. Moses in a narrow context and humankind [v6] in a broader one) is Jesus Christ – and in the very next states that He that built all things is God” The clear inference is that the logos is the God who created us. This supports the VERY high Christology evident in the first chapter of Hebrews.
Moses = building
Yahshua = builderMoses is a created “thing”, the Pre-incarnate Yahshua was His Creator.
Quote The fact that I said “a God”, picking up the way it is expressed in the KJV, is beside the point. Some translations read “as God” or “thee God”. The issue is, the Scriptures state that the LORD (Yahweh) made Moses God to Pharoah.
No, He made His “as” God. There is a difference Elidad. Here's some questions for you to ponder:- Was Moses said to be with God in the beginning (John 1:1)?
- Was Moses credited for making “all things” (Col 1:16)?
- Is Moses credited for “upholding all things” (Heb 1:3)?
- Did Moses claim he could raise himself from the dead, like Yahshua did (John 2:19-21)?
- Do NT authors apply OT references of YHWH directly to Moses (Heb 1:10)?
- Was Moses said to have fulfilled prophecies that YHWH made OF HIMSELF (John 19:37)?
- Will it be that everyone that all who call on the name of Moses be saved (Rom 1:13)?
- Will every knee bow at the name of Moses (Phil 2:9)?
- Will every tongue confess that Moses is Lord? (Phil 2:10)?
- Are titles that are exclusively YHWH's applied to Moses (e.g. Alpha and Omega, Rev 22:13)?
Quote Based on this, why do you see a problem with the LORD (Yahweh) making Jesus God to us, as conveyed in Hebrews 1:8?
If you can show me conclusively that The Father made the Son God the groundwork will have been laid for further discussion.Quote According to your viewpoint, it seems that in verse 9, you have Yahweh, annointing Yahweh. Please tell me who annointed who and what did the annointing signify?
The Logos who existed in the frorm of God, emptied Himself and took on the form of a bond servant. He was made for a little while lower than the angels (positionally/functionally – not ontologically). So according to my viewpoint the man Yahshua was annointed by His Father. I surmise that the independant usage of his divine attributes, privileges, prerogatives were restored. What He emptied Himself of to become a man were returned.Quote Whilst we are here in Hebrews, would you also please let me know how Christ can be “appointed heir of all things”[/size], if He is the Supreme God, who owns all things. How can he inherit that which your view alleges He already owns? How can He be both the benefactor and the heir?
Here is something I wrote in a post to Seminarian, I hope it goes some way to explaining my position:Quote Hmmm….my thoughts: ‘kurios’ has a multiplicity of meanings. There are instances in NT scripture where it clearly does not indicate deity, but rather expresses the authority and lordship arising from and pertaining to ownership: Matthew 18:27
“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. (cf. Ch 18: 31, 32, 34)Luke 10:2
And He was saying to them, ” The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.And instances where is clearly does:
Luke 4:8
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ' YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'”Luke 20:37
“But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOBThis of course is true of Yahshua as well. He Lord in more than one sense. He is THE Lord, an unmistakable reference to deity, and He is also “Lord of” something, a reference to His authority. Not always does it directly reference his deity. In this instance it does:
Romans 10:9-13
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF
THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”Romans 9:13 is a direct quotation of Joel 2:32, where the “Lord” is YHWH. Paul applies this to Jesus.
But not in these verses:
Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. (cf. Rev 1:18)Luke 6:5
And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”Acts 10:36
36″The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)Lord in these passages is qualified, and are therefore are not a direct reference to his deity per se, but allude to the authority and prerogatives bestowed on Him by the Father as a result of His incarnation, death and resurrection:
Daniel 7:13-14
13″I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14″And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.Ephesians 1:20-22
20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church.Philippians 2:8-11
8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross! 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the FatherHebrews 2:10
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.Here is another example of what I mean:
Romans 10:12
12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;“Lord” is used twice in this verse. The first instance is a reference to the person of Christ – His title of deity. The second “Lord” alludes to His ownership by inheritance. He has inherited all – all that the Father has is His.
So the verse you gave me, Acts 2:36, which is manifestly post-resurrection in context, is not a direct allusion to His deity, but to that which He inherited – the authority given to Him by the Father. That is how He was “made Lord” Seminarian. And we KNOW that Yahshua is Lord in more than one sense because He is called “Lord” in scripture countless times before He was madeLord (post-resurrection). Understand?
So again, you have failed to produce valid testimony against the doctrine of the trinity.
In anticipation of this objection which you will likely raise with me “Gee Is 1:18, if Yahshua really is YHWH why would he have to be given anything??”.
This is my reply:
Philippians 2:6-9
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name.Key points:
- Existed in the morphe of God (vs 6)
- Did not regard the equality He had with God a thing to be grasped (Gr. Harpagamos = retained, prized) (vs 7)
- EMPTIED Himself and took on the form (Gr. Morphe) of a bondservant, and was made in the likeness of men. (vs 8)
- Was obedient unto death.
- FOR THIS REASON, God exalted Him.
In 2 Corinthians 8:9, Paul puts it this way
“For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.”
In what sense was He rich? He existed in the form of God, had equality with the God, and in fact WAS God (Joh 1:1), then surrendered it to become a bondservant. All the divine prerogatives, the independent divine attributes associated with His pre-terrestrial existence were relinquished at the incarnation. At the resurrection they were rightly returned to Him by the Father, in glory.
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.Quote Also whilst thinking about this, please let me know how Christ, if He is the Supreme God; the Almighty God, can have a head who is God? 1 Corinthains 11:3 says “the head of Christ is God”
Okay, let me see if I have this right…….
The fact that the Son subjects Himself to His Father proves He must be a lower class of being. Hmmm….1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.If you want to use verses like 1 Corinthians 11:3 or 15:28 to disprove Christ’s deity then, using the same logic, you must also accept that these verses disprove a woman’s humanity, since the head of a woman is man. But this is not so, the woman is still 100% human, she is not any LESS human than her husband. Headship is solely a function of position/authority – NOT ontology. Its a clearly taught biblical principle, but has no bearing on ontology.
Quote If God, according to your concept is three persons in one, then this text should be read as: “the head of Christ is the trinity” or “the head of Christ is Father, Son and Holy Spirit” or “the head of Christ is three persons in one person”
I'm sorry but I have to be honest and say this argument, that is used with increasing frequency here, is utterly rediculous. The Greek word 'theos' is used predominantly by NT authors to designate the person of the Father of Yahshua. Sometimes it is used of Yahshua. The Greek word 'kurios' is used predominantly by NT authors to des
ignate the person of the Yahshua. Sometimes it is used of His Father. 'Theos' is not a stronger appelative than 'kurios', actally they are used interchangably throughout the NT. Clearly every NT usage of 'theos' is not a reference to the triune God, no trinitarian has ever asserted this in this forum, so it's a straw man argument.Quote Just one last question. In John 20:17 we read: “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.“
Jesus has a God because He is also a man, born of woman and born under the law (Gal. 4:4). As a man, if He does not have His Father as His God He would be a transgressor of that law. The fact that His Father is His God is a natural consequence of His incarnation. Verses like this just affirm Christ’s humanity – something that trinitarians do not dispute. If you want to set about disproving the doctrine it might be more productive to try disproving His deity.Quote Who was Jesus referring to here when He said, “My God”? Was He saying, “My three in one God”? Who was the God that Jesus was going to ascend to?
No, I believe he was referring to His Father.Quote May reason and clear thinking prevail, in terms of Proverbs 4:5-7.
Yes.Blessings
Hi Is 1:18. Thanks for your wordy response. Still I think we are getting hung up on pedantics.Thus we have have God (Yahweh) making Jesus “as” God. Thus before this, he wasn't “as” God, he was something other than what He was before He was made “as” God.
Now let me try to understand what you are trying to defend. This is the way I am reading your output to date:
1: Jesus existed as God (I take that to mean within the trinity)
before He took it upon Himself to become a man. Is this right?2: Upon becoming a man He “emptied” himself of what it was He was before. Can we say, divested Himself of everything that made Him God (part of the Trinity) before, so that he could be “truly” a man in every sense of the term. Is this right?
3.Therefore when He “emptied” Himself, He was no longer God (no longer part of the trinity), He was now man. Is this right?
4. Trinitarian theology informs me that Christ was 100% man and 100% God, in spite of the fact that no other man has ever been 100% God and 100% man. Therefore He wasn't made like unto His brethren in all respects (Heb 2:17). Contrary to what Scripture says in this regard, He was actually not fully man, if trinitarian theology is correct. Is this right?
5. When Jesus “emptied” himself, He was no longer God, but now man. Therefore He must have shed or “emptied” His 100% God aspect, so that He could be 100% man. Is this right?
6. Thus if Jesus was Yahweh, before He was man, what was left of Yahweh whilst He stepped into His new role? Evidently from your theology, Jesus could not be both God and Man, whilst He was a man, because He had “emptied” Himself of what He was before?
7. Thus Jesus, whilst He was on earth as a man, had to depend on the other two characters who made up the tri-unity, which had now become a bi-unity to carry on the God role and give Jesus His instructions. Is this right?
8. Whilst Jesus, was on earth, as a man, He prayed to the other remaining parties in the trinity, because He was no longer there as part of the God team. He had left and came to earth, to plead for the souls of men, and pay the price for sin. Is this right?
9. Thus in Hebrews 1:8, according to you, we have God (Yahweh) still in heaven, overseeing the affairs of heaven and earth, making or “appointing” Jesus as God whilst He was on earth, because He was no longer God, in the sense that He was before He came to earth. Now, if this appointing of Jesus to be God didn't apply whilst He was on earth, but only applied after, He ascended back to heaven, as some say, then He wasn't in any sense God, whilst He was on earth. Is this right?
Is 1:18, the more I hear from those who try to defend the trinitarian concept of God, the more confusing things become. The interesting thing about listening to trinitarians is that there is not a lot of consistency in their point of view. Like Oxy, for example, says the Holy Spirit is not equal with the Father. If I listen to others describe what they think they believe, they definitely believe in 3 separate Gods, in spite of their denials.
From my way of thinking, it all seems to fall into the category, of “professing themselves to be wise, they have become fools” Sorry no offence, I am just conveying the readout that I get when I hear and read your line of reasoning and that of others in your camp.
Be of good cheer.
Elidad
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 09 2006,20:39) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 09 2006,01:33) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 09 2006,20:28) You need to start reading my posts carefully t8…..
OK you believe in evolution except for the Origin of Species part.That is a big part, and the mainstream of that theory. Are you a scientific heretic.
Please show me where I said that I believed in evolution…Quote Similarly the Trinity is a big part of the denominational system and the mainstream and I am a heretic accordingly.
Non sequitur
To Is 1:18.True you didn't say it. It is true that I do not read your posts very closely. Apologies for answering a (short) post that I didn't read closely.
So you are not mainstream then? Evolution is mainstream in science, yet mainstream doesn't mean that it is correct does it?
You have at times mentioned that the Trinity is mainstream and then said we have departed that or are not mainstream. Yet in science, you are not mainstream.
So the point is that mainstream is not a good precept by which to justify anything.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 09 2006,21:04) My position is that the trinity doctrine best accounts for ALL the biblical data we are given on the Father, Son and Spirit.
Is 1:18.If that is so, then why does the Trinity doctrine nullify the word of God? I truly think you haven't thought this through very clearly. In other fields of expertise, say medicine, you would be shot down for coming up with a theory that nullified its base of truth.
Please explain why the word “Trinity” replaced with the word “God” nullifies the scriptures?
Try your doctrine out on these 100 verses:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htmI have been waiting along time for an answer from those who promote the babylonian (trinity) doctrine, but all I have observed in response is these people putting their head in the sand.
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