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Quote (Oxy @ Sep. 08 2006,02:19) The Bible says the Word of God became flesh.
Hi Oxy,
This is the Word who was with God in the beginning,
the only begotten son of God
who was sent into the World.1Jn 4
“8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. “
Not part of God
but with life in himself,
will, spirit and everything else
that makes a being a being he was.He, and not God, came in the flesh.
1 Jn 4
” 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. “
Quote (Oxy @ Sep. 08 2006,20:21) I know how God favours His Son. I would far rather be accused by the Father for thinking too highly of His beloved Son than thinking too little of Him!
To Oxy.The risk is breaking the commandments however.
Mark 12:29
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.2 Thessalonians 2:16
May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,To Oxy.
Quote (Oxy @ Sep. 08 2006,21:36) t8, once again we seem to be coming back to this whole trinity thing. I thought we had established by now that I do not hold to what your version of the trinity doctrine is. I simply believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't see the problem. The Father is Almighty God
The Word became flesh
The Holy Spirit speaks to us of the things of God, gives gifts/fruit, comforts, teaches etc etc.Where's the problem??
Of course there is a Father, son, spirit that is not what is being debated. The problem is the doctrine that says all are one God, 3 persons, when scripture is clear that for believers there is one God the Father.Here is what we disagree with, only because scripture says otherwise:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty…
Quote (Oxy @ Sep. 08 2006,22:11) You're absolutely right Nick, thanks for clearing that up. God DID come in the flesh!
To Oxy.The first commandment and now this?
2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.Oxy. God is not a man, God never came in the flesh, God cannot die, nor take sin upon himself.
It was the Word of God who partook of the flesh.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.Add these scriptures to the hundred I gave you earlier.
I am still waiting your explanation as to why you nullify the word of God.
We know that John 1 says that the Word was God, right?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.We also know that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.
Heb 2:6 But one testified in a certain place, saying, “What is man, that You are mindful of him; or the son of man, that You visit him?
Heb 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels. You crowned him with glory and honor and set him over the works of Your hands.
Heb 2:8 You subjected all things under his feet.” For in subjecting all things to Him, He did not leave anything not subjected to Him. But now we do not see all things having been subjected to him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.
Heb 2:10 For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,
Heb 2:12 saying, “I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”We also know that God will answer the prayer of His Son.
Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
Joh 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.And His former glory was that He was God.
We know that John 1 says that the Word was God, right?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.We also know that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.
Heb 2:6 But one testified in a certain place, saying, “What is man, that You are mindful of him; or the son of man, that You visit him?
Heb 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels. You crowned him with glory and honor and set him over the works of Your hands.
Heb 2:8 You subjected all things under his feet.” For in subjecting all things to Him, He did not leave anything not subjected to Him. But now we do not see all things having been subjected to him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.
Heb 2:10 For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,
Heb 2:12 saying, “I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”We also know that God will answer the prayer of His Son.
Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
Joh 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.And His former glory was that He was God.
As far as the Holy Spirit is concerned, Jesus called Him “He” on several occassions in just one verse. I believe Jesus! Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.
So God Almighty is God..1
Jesus is God……………..2
The Holy Spirit is God…..3Yet God is One.
Just as we are three, body, soul and spirit, but we are one.
Quote (Elidad @ Sep. 07 2006,23:07) Hi Oxy, The discussion has been moving a little too fast for me. Only now just catching up with some of the past posts. Your above comment puzzles me a somewhat. Firstly I never said you were a Catholic. However, by your own admission you are Catholic whether you acknowledge it or not, if you subscribe to the belief of three Gods in one, as this is one of the hallmarks of the Catholic Faith, as the Athanasius Creed states.
If you check with a good Dictionary, you can see what is embraced by use of this term.
Cheers
Elidad
Quote What defined and still defines the Roman Catholic faith is the Trinity. Whether you call yourself a Roman Catholic or not, by your belief in the Trinity doctrine you are Roman Catholic according to the Roman Catholic Church the guardians and promoters of that doctrine. They only await you to come back to the mother. One more step and you are there.
Hi Oxy,
This is what's called the 'guilt by association fallacy'. It's often employed here. Don't take it seriously. After all, the Catholics also believe in, and actively teach, the resurrection of Christ – so should be dismiss this doctrine a heretical because it's espoused by them?
It should also be noted that the trinity doctrine is a mainstream doctrine and held as truth by the absolute vast majority of Christians across almost all the creditable denominations, not just the catholics.
Blessings
Thanks Is 1:18
I have noticed on numerous occasions that they have a tendancy to try and mould you into whatever box they think you come out of lol.
All of the discussion here has done wonders in strengthening my resolve about this issue.
Quote (Oxy @ Sep. 08 2006,01:21) I know how God favours His Son. I would far rather be accused by the Father for thinking too highly of His beloved Son than thinking too little of Him!
Amen Oxy.Hi Is 1.18,
Is there security in numbers?Matt 7
” 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. “
Lk 13
” 23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.”
Matt 19
” 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”
Is there safety in numbers?
Quote It should also be noted that the trinity doctrine is a mainstream doctrine and held as truth by the absolute vast majority of Christians across almost all the creditable denominations, not just the catholics. Hi Is 1:18,
Did Jesus, go along with “popular opinion” during the time of his ministry?
I have just noticed on the WEB that mainstream Churches are increasingly accepting and supporting the “theory” of Evolution as fact; some 10,000 ministers having signed a petition to this effect. Go here to read about it: http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/religion_science_collaboration.htm
Would you also advocate that we should now throw out the Genesis account of Creation, because an increasing number of mainstream churches think Evolution is the truth of the matter?
Cheers
Elidad
I once believed the trinity doctrine myself.
Then I seriously looked into the evidence. The things T8 is saying is the exact information I discovered.
We all agree here, I think, that the scriptures must supersede the authority of tradition and teachings of men.
I no doubt believe that the trinitarians on this forum are God fearing and sincere Christians.
I also realize that all of us are fully capable of simply being wrong by not properly applying and weighing the evidence before us. I myself am probably wrong on several beliefs, yet, if and when ever I discover an error I know I must yield my former position.
When I honestly look at the evidence with all pride and fear of men removed from my thoughts then I cannot help but see very clearly the deceptive teaching of the Trinity.
We all love God and therefor defend what we believe to be the truths about him. So I do not judge trinitarians at all in that regard. The vast majority of my christian friends are trinitarians.
But, I cannot help but yearn for them to see what I see and I wish the same for you. With respect, grace, sincerity and all humbleness.
Quote (Oxy @ Sep. 07 2006,22:18) It's obvious we're just going round in circles here. I stand by what God showed me last night: Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.
If you study the Hebrew, God is saying “Let Us (God being in the plural sense) fashion man after Us”
God made us this way:
Body – The flesh.
Soul – Identity, including the thought process, personality, decision making.
Spirit – Conscience, “6th sense”, intuition, inner knowledge.We are one being, but made up of three parts, fashioned after God.
Hi Oxy, Sorry, I am dragging the chain with this discussion, we seem to have moved on a few pages since this one.May I ask, what makes you think Genesis 1:26 supports the trinity concept of God? On what authority do you restrict the “us” to two others in a party of three?
Given that the Scripture reveals that there are many angels in the heavenly host, have you ever considered that God may have been addressing, others of the heavenly host, His ministering spirits? (Hebrews 1:14) They were evidently present at the time of creation, if we go by what we read in Job 37, especially verse 7.
Given that God is one, surely when He uses the word “us” he is addressing someone other than Himself?
Why even Herman Bavinck, a noted trinitarian in his book “The Doctrine of God” says on page 258 that Genesis 1:26 cannot be used to support belief in the trinity. Here is what he says, “The plural forms found in Genesis 1:26, 27; 3:22; Is 6:8 etc, lack sufficient force to prove the trinity, inasmuch as they can be explained in the same manner as the plural Elohim” On page 100 of this same book, he outlines why Elohim, which is a plural word, also cannot be used to bolster an argument for belief in the trinity. These are statements coming from some one who in the rest of his 407 page book, endeavours to build a case for belief in the trinity.
So here we have an honest trinitarian, dismissing this reference that you are appealing to support your stand.
The jews who were very familiar with the their own language, never concluded from the Genesis creation chapters that there was a plurality of Gods involved.
What you should note is that in the verses, singular pronouns are used with the word God. “in His (not their) image”. In the image of God “He” (not they) created them.
It takes a fair stretch of the imagination to deduce from this verse, where the personal pronoun describing God (His) is singular, that a plurality of beings was being referred to?
What about verse 29 where it says “I” not 'we' have given you every plant yielding seed …… verse 31 and God saw that everything that “He” had made (not they) which it should read if God was a plural being.
There is always greaty danger in appealing to a text of Scripture in isolation. The context cannot be ignored.
You say, “if you study Hebrew”. What do you mean by this? I have gathered that many scholars have come to understand by studying Hebrew, that the phrase “Let us” or the word “Elohim” cannot be taken to mean a plurality of God persons. Thus you have left me puzzled as to what you have studied or where you have studied?
Perhaps you can enlighten me further as to your sources of information?
Finally your three part illustration of what a person is, doesn't seem to fit very well with what I read in Genesis 2:7; reading KJV
Here I find that dust + breath of life = a living soul. In other words, Body (formed of dust) + spirit = man.
Man is a soul, it is not something separate from a person. Go get your concordance and look up every reference where the word soul appears and every reference where the original hebrew word has been translated with a word, other than soul and you may well be surprised what you find.
Cheers
Elidad
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 09 2006,03:36) Quote (Elidad @ Sep. 07 2006,23:07) Hi Oxy, The discussion has been moving a little too fast for me. Only now just catching up with some of the past posts. Your above comment puzzles me a somewhat. Firstly I never said you were a Catholic. However, by your own admission you are Catholic whether you acknowledge it or not, if you subscribe to the belief of three Gods in one, as this is one of the hallmarks of the Catholic Faith, as the Athanasius Creed states.
If you check with a good Dictionary, you can see what is embraced by use of this term.
Cheers
Elidad
Quote What defined and still defines the Roman Catholic faith is the Trinity. Whether you call yourself a Roman Catholic or not, by your belief in the Trinity doctrine you are Roman Catholic according to the Roman Catholic Church the guardians and promoters of that doctrine. They only await you to come back to the mother. One more step and you are there.
Hi Oxy,
This is what's called the 'guilt by association fallacy'. It's often employed here. Don't take it seriously. After all, the Catholics also believe in, and actively teach, the resurrection of Christ – so should be dismiss this doctrine a heretical because it's espoused by them? It should also be noted that the trinity doctrine is a mainstream doctrine and held as truth by the absolute vast majority of Christians across almost all the creditable denominations, not just the catholics.
Blessings
Incorrect, false.We believe not in the Trinity because it is not scriptural, not for the reason you gave. You know this, as we have said it many times before.
Catholics read the bible, yet we do not condemn the bible, so your words fall flat right there.
Your assumption is a false one.
The Roman Catholic faith is the Trinity. If that is what you want to believe, then go right ahead. Oh that's right, you already have.
BTW, if this statement is your attempt that weilding the sword, of the spirit, then I think you need some serious lessons.
If this is your way of attacking the truth that for believers there is one God the Father, then fair enough that is your choice. God gave you free will. So free in fact that you can even reject his scripture if you so choose.
But you believe that you are doing God a favour by coming here and attacking that which we teach, yet I haven't heard yourself Oxy explain why the word “God”, when replaced by the word “Trinity” nullifies the word of God.
I am still waiting, but I guess I will be waiting a long time.
Yet somehow I do remain intrigued that yourself an Oxy can ignore such an obvious thing. I am sure that I myself would wonder why a doctrine I believed nullified the word of God. I mean, that would worry me enough to do something about it. I personally couldn't ignore the fact that the word Trinity cannot replace the word “God” in the bible. I certainly would be asking some serious questions if I was in your shoes.
What manor of man can conciously ignore this simple fact?
Does not your conscience speak?
How can a man ignore scripture?This is what you and Oxy are demonstrating, but I cannot see the gain in such action. What do you honestly hope to gain by ignoring scripture.
To me that would be like avoiding tax, but knowing that I was going to be caught out eventually. It wouldn't give me any peace is what I am trying to say.
Quote It should also be noted that the trinity doctrine is a mainstream doctrine and held as truth by the absolute vast majority of Christians across almost all the creditable denominations, not just the catholics.
Your quote sounds just like the following to me:Quote It should also be noted that evolution is a mainstream doctrine and held as truth by the the majority of scientists across almost all the creditable fields of science and television documentaries, and not just the belief of athiests. This is where you err. You seem to be implying that you feel that because the Trinity doctrine is mainstream, that it is somehow correct. Yet as I requoted you by replacing some of your words, I conclude that evolution is also mainstream and what does mainstream mean if we live in a world that is under the sway of the evil one.
If wide is the path that leads to destruction, then surely mainstream is talking of the main stream of people who surely need a wider path than those who are not mainstream.
Are you an evolutionist? If not, then how can you deny a mainstream doctrine according to your endorsement of mainstream? If you agree that those who believe in evolution are deceived, then you have to admit that Trinitarians can also.
But you seem to be blind to the deception you are in.
Your choice and I respect that. But when challenged, I will say it like it is.
Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 08 2006,10:48) I once believed the trinity doctrine myself. Then I seriously looked into the evidence. The things T8 is saying is the exact information I discovered.
We all agree here, I think, that the scriptures must supersede the authority of tradition and teachings of men.
I no doubt believe that the trinitarians on this forum are God fearing and sincere Christians.
I also realize that all of us are fully capable of simply being wrong by not properly applying and weighing the evidence before us. I myself am probably wrong on several beliefs, yet, if and when ever I discover an error I know I must yield my former position.
When I honestly look at the evidence with all pride and fear of men removed from my thoughts then I cannot help but see very clearly the deceptive teaching of the Trinity.
We all love God and therefor defend what we believe to be the truths about him. So I do not judge trinitarians at all in that regard. The vast majority of my christian friends are trinitarians.
But, I cannot help but yearn for them to see what I see and I wish the same for you. With respect, grace, sincerity and all humbleness.
Hi Mercy, Nicely said. I too was a former trinitatian, baptised and confirmed in the High Church of England. However after having my beliefs challenged, because in the main they had been basically inherited from my mother (father was an athiest, until the later part of his life, when he eventually saw the light and submitted to Christ) I discovered, after many years of searching, that I needed a radical change of thinking.Incidently many of our friends are trinitarians and we actually attend a Baptist Church and have done so for the past 4 years or more. With things were we don't agree, we decide to disagree, yet get on happily together, trusting that in good time further enlightement will come when and where needed.
Peace be with you.
Elidad
Me too.
I accepted that doctrine because I went to churches whose foundation was the Trinity. But as I matured in understanding, I realised that denominations could only provide milk, and that milk was off.
The spirit of God taught me that this and other doctrines that I had accepted were wrong. When I challenged it, christians treated me as if I was denying the faith. Yet scripture backed up time and time again the conviction in my heart.
It soon became apparent to me that the whole denominational system was built on this false doctrine and that it was a kind of prison, whose walls were the traditions of men and false doctrine.
In the end I simply walked out if the prison. The key that unlocked the door was the truth.
I came out of her and what freedom I discovered in doing so.
Quote (Oxy @ Sep. 08 2006,01:18) It's obvious we're just going round in circles here. I stand by what God showed me last night: Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.
If you study the Hebrew, God is saying “Let Us (God being in the plural sense) fashion man after Us”
God made us this way:
Body – The flesh.
Soul – Identity, including the thought process, personality, decision making.
Spirit – Conscience, “6th sense”, intuition, inner knowledge.We are one being, but made up of three parts, fashioned after God.
Oxy,Even if you are right, about these verses being proof for multiple divine personalities discussing creation, it does not prove the trinity. Our position would still agree with you.
Christ was the architect at God's side. Through him all things were made.
These verses can't be used for proof of the trinity sense it does not contradict our position.
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