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So you admit you are a polytheist then T8,
you said:
"Jesus is divine.
John 1:1c
And the Word was divine.Philippians 2:6
"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped".We can be divine.
2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. "Call it what you like Global, but it is the teaching of Paul, not me.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords)”,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.So there are many gods, but there is one Most High God, the Father. He shares his nature with his son and with redeemed humans and possibly the Angels (ben elohiym).
So you see, I believe in one God the Father and everything good came from him including the Son of God.
It is you who believes that the Father and the Son are both the God. Not me. I believe that God is one identity, you believe that God is 3 identites.
Who is really the polytheist?
Hi T8,
It is not what I call it, it is simply the meaning of polytheism.
You have clearly stated that you believe in more than one divinity, that is called polytheism.
You have consistently maintained in this discussion that you are promoting the true Chrisitianity which was recognised by the first Arians, and is also recognised by other Unitarians today.
Now however we can see the lie of that.
The bizarre polytheistic theology you have developed would have been rejected by the Arians, and I can think of no other denomination today which would even come close to accepting it, whether it be traditional churches or other heretical sects like the Jehovahs Witnesses.
How can you possibly claim that you are proclaiming the true teaching of Christianity when it is a teaching which has not been taught by any Christian group in the two thousand years since Christ came?
Do you really believe that you alone have been chosen by God to understand the Bible?
You do not even seem to understand your own position as you cannot even say if humans are humans now, or gods, or will become gods or some other type of being in the afterlife.
How far all this is from the pure and simple truths of the true Church left to us by Christ.
Be Well.
Haven’t been here for quite some time due to work and other stuffs.
I would just like to point out something to Global, I will write a complete review of it later on (for all your biblical document if I have the time, but specially on the one, biblical argument number 5) if I ever had time, and to post my question in entirely and well tought manner.Global, indeed many scholar interpret the bible in accordance to the trinitian believe. However, do remember, when Chirst came to earth most people interpret the old testament wrongly. And jesus is the only one to take them back to the right path (which they rejected obviously). All who he apposed are the so called experts in Moses Law, and they are the people who study the law day and night and do nothing else.
In regards to that, I wouldn’t really hold on to argument that lots of scholar and greek theologyst or something like that believe blabla so that you should too. By making a standard of how we interpret thing and force it into the source of the standard, wouldn’t that beat the purpose of having the source in the first place. Isn’t this exactly what Jesus said of the pharisee ? Their culture and their understanding has led the to way which is not God’s. They uphold their understanding and doctrin higher than the source of the doctrine it self.
Should we take a doctrine (which is a believe declared based on the bible) and disregard other verse in the bible (which is the very source of the doctrine) that contradicts it ?
I hold to the principle, that any doctrine that contradict even one word from the bible is questionable. So rather than trying to force a standard to generalize those thing that we can’t understand, why can’t we just admit that we don’t understand them!
Forcing a precept might add, or lessen the real meaning of the bible, and led many to false thinking. And we all know the severity of this kind of Act as stated at the end of revelation.So in bottom line, I find the trinitian fate declration to be questionable as it didn’t fully go in harmony with the entire bible. Since bible can’t be wrong (It’s the word of God), then trinity understanding is not perfectly accurate.
There are many occasion where Jesus differ himself with the father interm of quality, let alone the holly spirit. Any presumption taken that they are of equal position (so far as I know) are never supported by explicit statement in the bible, but based on derivative understanding, or even if it is, it would not go into full harmony. (I’m in the father the father in me which leads to Jesus = the Father, but again I’m in you and you’re in me which leads we = Jesus = The Father)……To T8,
I’m really sorry, I will read them as soon as I have time (soon I hope).To dmateo,
Gidday haven’t heard from you in a while.
I hope all is well with you. I’m not sure about what you are referring to with the readings. I must of said something way back there and have no recollection of that.
===========To Global,
Your argument is not with me, it is with Paul and Jesus Christ himself. All I am doing is repeating their words.
If you condemn the words of Christ and Paul and you are representitve of most Christian theology today, then I can only conclude that the prophecied falling away has indeed ocurred. Paul was right on.
Like dmateo said, the Pharisees and teachers of the law were the scholars of the time when Jesus walked the earth as a man, and Jesus condemned their teachings and actions. Is it too hard to accept that many of todays scholars may be in the same boat, especially when Paul teaches us that deception on a big scale would happen after he died. Of course some Pharisees became followers of Christ, so there is no reason why believers today who believe the false teachings of creeds/trinitarian-scholars cannot believe the truth when it is presented to them.
Again I say that your argument is with Paul, not me. You deny his clear teachings and his prophecies. I accept Pauls teachings even if they contradict todays mainline Christianity.
I think that most people who read this discussion would know that I am not a polytheist. My position is clear, I believe that there are many gods and indeed there are many gods, but I worship one God, namely my Father who is the only true God. He is the Father of all.
You worship 3 people as God and you call me the Polytheist. This is laughable Global. You even deny the fact that there are many gods because you believe that divine nature is confined to 3 persons. Therefore I can only conclude that your belief can only result in you not partaking of the divine nature and therefore that leaves you with one option, the human nature/flesh. Of course your teachings show that you are of the flesh too. The things of the Spirit cannot be understood by the fleshly nature, this is why you do not understand.
I think that you are in self preservation mode at the expense of the truth. You have shown yourself to be unteachable and you just ignore the teachings and scripture that do not agree with your tradition. This is your problem, not mine. I have only tried to help you.
Hi T8,
Are you taking the piss?
You just said in your last post that you are a polytheist, now you are denying it again, but in the very same sentence you again say –
“I believe that there are many gods”
No I am not taking the piss.
I am simply saying that even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords)", yet for true believers there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
You can slap any label on to me that you like, but that label doesn’t nullify this truth.
Hi T8,
You are just constantly being deliberately vague.
You have previously stated your belief that both Jesus and humans are truly divine.
Belief in more than one divinity is called polytheism.
It is not necessary that you worship all of the divinities or even any of them in a polytheistic system. It is only necessary that you believe in the existence of more than one divinity.
Therefore your statements such as –
“I believe that there are many gods and indeed there are many gods, but I worship one God, namely my Father who is the only true God. He is the Father of all.”
Do not stop you being a polytheist.
Then you try to nullify the importance of this by saying –
“You can slap any label on to me that you like”
I am not trying to slap labels on anything, I am trying to understand what you believe, and for this names or as you say “labels” are important.
I put the label “car” on a four wheeled, vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine, because it is a word which helps me understand and express that this is vehicle for transporting people.
I put the label “polytheism” on your belief because it describes your beliefs as you have expressed them.
You believe in one big divinity who you worship and call the almighty god, you also believe in a series of other smaller divinities of lesser power (but nonetheless truly divine) who you do not worship. One of these (Jesus)you accord a place of special reverence because he is the Son of the big divinity.
You know that you are a polytheist but you are wriggling like a worm on a hook to avoid that word because you know that saying you are a polytheist would set you apart from all the other Arian denominations who you have been claiming as authority for your beliefs.
If that happened it would mean that you alone in history have understood the true meaning of the Bible, and I think that even you do not wish to make such a megalomaniacal claim.
If you ask me if I have a car, I can say – "no I have a four wheeled personal transportation vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine".
But that doesnt stop it from being a car.
Be Well.
(Edited by global at 7:55 am on Oct. 17, 2003)
To Global,
Like I said, your indifference is not with me it is with Paul. I even tested you by simply quoting Paul’s words in my previous post, except I took the liberty of changing one word namely ‘us’ to ‘true believers’ and you say that I am confusing and I’m trying to avoid the brand ‘polytheism’.
Like I said before, you can call me what you like. But I am only quoting Paul’s words and if you find Paul’s words offensive or confusing then complain to God about it, not me.
Just to make sure that I get my point across to you, I will say it again. If I quote scripture and that scripture is confusing to you, or if it is offensive and you consider it to be Polytheism, then how is that my fault. Your complaints are directed at scripture itself and Paul who wrote it.
I think that this is a clear example of how mans tradition contradicts the truth and I can only conclude as I have said before, that your tradition has lead you away from the truth recorded in scripture.
It is not I who rebukes you, it is Paul.
Wriggle wriggle wriggle.
I dont find St. Pauls words in the slightest bit offensive T8, but I find it amusing that you, alone in the last two thousand years, interpret them to be a polytheistic teaching, yet claim that you understand the "true" teaching.
How does it feel to be the only person ever to understand the Bible T8?
giggle giggle
I quote Paul word for word and you say that I am the only one to understand the Bible. I could take this as a compliment, but I know full well that there are many who believe the truth of scripture and keep away from the interpretations of men, today and in the past. You probably wouldn’t meet many of them as we tend to hang out with people like ourselves, but true believers probably occupy every denomination and nearly every nation. We are one Body united in our belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah. You may even be one, but your resistance to the truth is worrying.
Many belong to the Body of Christ and it is probably true that few believers would not be affected by man made creeds in one way or another. But do you really think that I am the only one who believes that there is one God the Father. Try millions of Christians and Jewish people for starters.
We are the adopted sons of God and the Jews who are the natural sons of God, never believed in a Trinity.
You know I have many friends who are Catholic and just the other day one of them expressed to me how she couldn’t for the life of her understand the Trinity. I didn’t condemn the Trinity doctrine to her because she is a true believer with a precious faith. Rather I explained the Logos to her. One step at a time.
This may also come as a shock to you, but my wife to be, is a Catholic, yet we love each other and we talk about God all the time together. She is however starting to doubt some of the advice and teachings she is getting from that denomination as she said in her own words. "I get more truth from God when we talk about God together".
All I am saying Global is that there is one Body, one Lord Jesus and one God and Father of all. All I am doing is preaching this scriptural truth and what harm can come from the truth? The truth should be put out in the open for all to see and if this truth destroys the creeds of men and the denominations that men have built on top, then good. New wine in old wineskins will burst the old wine skins.
In my country New Zealand, the latest census revealed that the most popular belief is Christian, but the census also revealed that very few people actually go to Church. Many of these people obviously do not see denominations as relevant to their faith. But you may not be aware of this world wide trend as your belief may render them as non-christian?
Christians are united in the belief that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God. There has never been a time that believers must believe that Jesus is God/YHWH. This is a lie.
Do you think that all Christians have 100% of the truth. No we are all decieved in something at sometime. Scripture will guide us when we err.
Was Martin Luther the only one who believed that salvation is a free gift of God? It may have appeared like that in his time, but salvation truly is a free gift of God. What Christian would argue against that today? Just because most Christians didn’t believe that truth for a time didn’t nullify that truth. Perhaps Martin Luther just went against the religious tide and pressed into the truth and God revealed this truth through scripture to him and he gave this truth back to the Body of Christ.
Has the Church been perfected yet. Do you think that there may possibly be other things that we need to learn or even revive.
Martin Luther sparked a reformation when the Roman Catholic Church provided indulgences and other such abuses. When the darkness gets darker, the light gets brighter. In this Satan is defeated.
When you see blossums on the tree you know that Spring is here. How is it that you cannot understand that reformation is nigh. Look at the hearts of the believers around you. They are sick of mans tradition and all the dodgy stuff that goes on in the so called churches. Sexual perversion, homsexuality and child molestation. The so called churches are full of it.
Jesus is coming back when the Bride has made herself ready. Is the Church ready now? If not, then there must be things that need to change.
Hi T8,
You do indeed seem to have a sincere faith which is commendable, but that doesn’t necessarily make your particular beliefs true.
The fact that your polytheistic philosophy has never been held by any Christian group is prima facie evidence that it must be mistaken, surely you can see this?
You say that you know many other Christians who agree with you, but do they really agree with all your theology, or are they just other non Trinitarians who in fact may hold different beliefs from you regarding the divinity of Jesus and humans etc?
You say you are just preaching scriptural truth, but the fact that you can cite scriptural verses which seem to back your arguments (even if there are many of them) does not mean you have actually understood the meaning of those verses or integrated them with the meanings of other apparently contradictory verses.
You said –
“All I am saying Global is that there is one Body, one Lord Jesus and one God and Father of all. All I am doing is preaching this scriptural truth and what harm can come from the truth?”
Yes you are preaching scriptural truth by saying that, but that is not the whole truth. There are other questions which require answers, which people deserve answers to, and your answers to those other questions have so far proved to be unsatisfactory, so I think you can see that at least some part of your theology needs to be re-thought.
Finally when you say –
“There has never been a time that believers must believe that Jesus is God/YHWH. This is a lie.”
This is very debatable, all recognised Christian denominations say that it is essential to believe that Jesus is God, those who do not accept it have always been regarded as heretics.
So if you do not accept it the question returns to –
“Why do you think you know more than the thousands of other Christians in the last two thousand years?”
If you wish to convince me that the heretical position was correct all along you will have to have some very convincing evidence indeed.
That is what we are debating right now, and as I have said before, it seems to me that, so far, the evidence you are presenting is far from overwhelmingly convincing.
I also find it worrying that you frequently seem to presume to speak for God/the Saints etc by saying such things as
“It is not I who rebukes you, it is Paul.”
Many would consider this blasphemous, and it indicates an almost fanatical belief in your own rightness that makes me wonder if you really are open to considering that you could be wrong on anything at all.
Be Well.
To Global,
Your quotes are in gray
The fact that your polytheistic philosophy has never been held by any Christian group is prima face evidence that it must be mistaken, surely you can see this?
Christian denominations are not by design part of the Church/Body. They are simply man made organizations that have made a name for themselves and usually start from some charismatic person or dispute from a mother church.
The Body of Christ (the true Universal Church) is made up of disciples, teachers, prophets, evangelists, elders and apostles. The head of the true body is Jesus Christ. He directs his body and he is the one who builds it. Denominations on the other hand are founded by a man and have creeds and or statements of faith as their foundation and they are generally divided with one another because each has their own foundation.
Denominations are really divisions and we know that a Kingdom divided against itself will not stand. Of course Babylon/false religions will fall, but Satan would try and have a us believe that it is God's Kingdom that will fall. This is not true.
The gates of #### will never prevail against the true Church. The true Church is made up of believers from many different nationalities and backgrounds. But most or many of them are trapped within the man made system of denominations, which is a worldly system. They are like sheep that have been shepherded into sheep pens only to find that they do not have any or little contact with sheep from other pens. Their shepherds have lead them astray. This system of separation is contrary to Christ's words and will in John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I believe in the destruction of this Babylonian system and the setting free of the Children of God, to realise that they can never go to Church because they are the Church.
The destruction of this system will not come about by the will of men, it will be God's doing as he will shake all things, so that what will remain will be of him. God's people will certainly need to be lead out of Egypt and I am not claiming to be Moses, but God will raise up leaders to do this.
The church is like a fire in that it should spread and burn up the works of the evil one and give light where there is darkness. But if that fire is separated into small fires, it becomes less intense and less powerful.
Unity of the brethren will not be through denominations tolerating each others existence. It will come when the true foundation is made obvious to believers and when the ministries encourage believers to build on that foundation.
So Global, you can now see why I say that traditions or teachings that come from this system and contradict scripture are false. It doesn't matter if these teachings or beliefs have been around for hundreds of years. If scripture rebukes us when we err, then we have been rebuked indeed. You can not hide behind tradition.
If scripture rebukes us when we are wrong and if it is Paul's words in particular that contradict your words, then it is Paul that rebukes you. I am not speaking for Paul, it is his own words that will judge.
This is very debatable, all recognized Christian denominations say that it is essential to believe that Jesus is God, those who do not accept it have always been regarded as heretics.
Like I said, if it is rooted in the system and tradition and not scripture, then it makes no difference what those systems say. Scripture is true even when men contradict it. Heresy is different to damnation. The consequence of the first is to be excommunicated from a system and the latter is to be excluded from God's Kingdom. I know which one I fear and if we look at those who were excommunicated for heresy in the past, we will see a list of people that includes reputable scientists, even Christians.
You say that you know many other Christians who agree with you, but do they really agree with all your theology, or are they just other non Trinitarians who in fact may hold different beliefs from you regarding the divinity of Jesus and humans etc?
Many Christians do not hold to the Trinity Doctrine. Try searching on those 2 words in Google and you will see that the most popular pages on this subject actually condemn this doctrine as false. It may be hard to recognize just how many Christians believe the Trinity to be false because there isn't a system for those Christians to join where numbers are counted, (this is a good thing), but many maybe even most Christians do not go to Church. In addition, most Christians cannot understand this doctrine, so can we really say that they believe it, when they are not even sure what it is that they should believe. Also we are warned in scripture that Satan deceives the whole world, so scripture at least caters for the existence of false doctrines on a very big scale. In addition I think many Christians wouldn't believe in that doctrine if they were shown the arguments against it including the many scriptures that teach otherwise.
Many of those who do not believe in the Trinity do hold varying views on the Logos etc, but the point is that true believers are required to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah. If they do not believe that, then they are not of God. Also if religious tradition has made the whole world drunk, then a return to the truth would not be an instant revitalization of all truth. It will come through men who labor in the word and are lead by the Spirit of God. Such things do take time but the true light will shine brighter than all other so-called lights and the Morning Star will arise in the hearts of the believers.
Thought I would add the following:
If John says in John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.and Paul says in Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.The Paul also says in Acts 20:29-31
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.And if most Christian groups throughout history (after Paul died) do not teach these truths above along with the myriad of other scriptures that support these words, then perhaps the great falling away has happened. In addition these men/wolves draw men after themselves and isn't this what denominations are about? Most if not all are all headed and/or started by some charasmatic person who has made a name for himself and drawn men after himself which resulted in a community of believers promoting that person or his teachings. Once these groups start building so-called churches and exalt their own name, we end up with another denomination. As if we needed another one.
2 Thessalonians 2:3?
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Finally I want to say that I have read what I consider to be some wonderful writings from some of the Second Century Fathers who did not appear to me at least to have been contaminated by teachings that lead to the present day Trinity Doctrine.
Perhaps these deceptions took time and built up to what we see today, even while the wonderful truth was being taught by the Apostles. I do not think that the moment Paul died there was an instantanoeus death of truth to be replaced with deception.
Hi T8,
You said –
“Christian denominations are not by design part of the Church/Body. They are simply man made organizations that have made a name for themselves and usually start from some charismatic person or dispute from a mother church.”
But YOU are just another denomination which has split from the true Church.
You are a denomination of one.
You said –
“to realise that they can never go to Church because they are the Church.”
But it is a Biblical practice that believers should regularly meet, or “go to Church”, this just shows your prejudice against all organised religion.
You said –
“you can now see why I say that traditions or teachings that come from this system and contradict scripture are false”
But you have failed to show that any of my beliefs contradict scripture, whilst your polytheism clearly DOES.
You said –
“Many Christians do not hold to the Trinity Doctrine”
No Christians deny the Trinity, because denial of the Trinity means that you are not a Christian.
I do not accept that Jehovahs witnesses are Christians for example, I can think of no existing Christian group (even cults like the JW’s) that would accept a polytheist like yourself as a Christian.
You said
“we are warned in scripture that Satan deceives the whole world”
Yes he has deceived you.
You said –
“Finally I want to say that I have read what I consider to be some wonderful writings from some of the Second Century Fathers who did not appear to me at least to have been contaminated by teachings that lead to the present day Trinity Doctrine.
Perhaps these deceptions took time and built up to what we see today, even while the wonderful truth was being taught by the Apostles. I do not think that the moment Paul died there was an instantanoeus death of truth to be replaced with deception.”
Lets not forget that I have completely discredited your whacko theories on the development of the Trinity doctrine in the first four centuries of the Church up to the Council of Nicea, and you have been unable to explain how this supposed “great deception” took over the Church.
Lets not also forget that the second century Fathers would have condemned you as a heretic for your polytheism and your rejection of the true Church of which they were all a part.
Be Well.
To Global,
Your quotes are in gray.
“Christian denominations are not by design part of the Church/Body. They are simply man made organizations that have made a name for themselves and usually start from some charismatic person or dispute from a mother church.”
But YOU are just another denomination which has split from the true Church.
You are a denomination of one.
In the past there have been non-denominational churches and in reality they were just another denomination. Why? Because they made a name for themselves and do not promote the truth that we are one body. They are often structured just like a business and even owning property in that name of this so-called non-denominational church. Many of these denominations also have a creed or statement of faith as the foundation. I think it has got to the point where Christians think it is impossible to not have a denomination for the minute you expose denominations for what they are and the people flock to you, then we have the beginnings of another denomination. So why do I think that I am not a denomination?
The answer is simple. I teach that the Church is universal and is headed by no man, rather Jesus Christ. My mission is to all Christians of any denomination to realize that they are the Church and that God inhabits the Church as his Temple. I am just one person calling the Body of Christ to realize just who we are and to see ourselves spiritually, not in a worldly way, but the way Christ sees us.
The Universal Church is the Body of Christ and that body is built on truth and each of us should be joined together in love. We are all joined to the head who instructs us.
I am certainly not a denomination and even if certain people took my words and created a denomination from them, then I would say that they do not understand what I teach and they have done the complete opposite of what I am saying. I am calling the Body of Christ to realize who she is, and to realize the true foundation that we should be building on and to realize who God is and who his son is. For which of these works do you condemn?
A denomination looks after itself and is not usually concerned for the Universal Body of Christ, although this wouldn't be true with all denominations, but probably the majority.
1 Corinthians 12:26-27
26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.1 Corinthians 12:14-15
14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.Global your accusation is not founded on truth or substance and if I am true in what I say and do and if I am truly called by God, then your accusations are going straight to him. I am a teacher not a denomination. You have got this wrong.
But it is a Biblical practice that believers should regularly meet, or “go to Church”, this just shows your prejudice against all organized religion.
Yes it is biblical practice to meet together, however what we see today is segregation. Just like the past Apartheid system in South Africa, today the churches are separated in the same way and it is an absolutely shameful witness to a disbelieving world when we are separated by denomination, creed and statements of faith, when we should all be part of the one true foundation. Even Jesus said in John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
So is it any wonder that the world doesn't believe, when the followers of Christ are so divided. Global, do you really want this to continue? Who is it that wants the Church to remain divided? Is it not the enemy of Christ.
But you have failed to show that any of my beliefs contradict scripture, whilst your polytheism clearly DOES.
I worship One God the Father. You worship 3 persons as God. Who is the Polytheist. If this subject were not so serious this would be truly laughable. Your ignorance has no bounds.
My so-called polytheism is your label for Paul's teaching. If you want to slander Paul, then keep saying that he teaches Polytheism or cease to comment on things you do not understand. You cannot disprove Paul, Johns and even Jesus teachings about the One God who is over all and through all and in all.
You are making accusations against these scriptural truths and trying to deceive me and those who read this discussion by making false accusations, but in reality I and probably many of the readers can see the shallowness of your words. If you could reason from the scriptures and demonstrate what you are saying, then perhaps you would be taken more seriously. But simple accusations without reason are no better than the accusations that the Pharisees made against Christ.
If Paul says there are many gods but we worship and adhere to the one true God, the Father, then how can that be polytheism. Are you not getting desperate and lashing out with false accusations, just as the Pharisees did with Jesus.
Again I remind you and anyone else reading this that I quoted Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 and you/Global accuse me of being a Polytheist. Again I say that if you want to slander Paul, then you are also slandering who he represents.
No Christians deny the Trinity, because denial of the Trinity means that you are not a Christian.
Ok so you once again are clearly lying. You have no basis to speak such lies and may the God of righteousness reprove you. You have really shown your true colors in this Post. You know that many will stumble over stumbling blocks, but woe to the men who lay them.
You have been shown clearly what Paul, John and Jesus have taught and you continue to resist the truth and to teach false doctrine. You are promoting stumbling blocks that have been laid in the past. You are accountable for your teaching just as I am, and teachers will be judge my severely. It is one thing to do something in ignorance and quite another to do it knowingly.
I do not accept that Jehovahs witnesses are Christians for example, I can think of no existing Christian group (even cults like the JW’s) that would accept a polytheist like yourself as a Christian.
Again you are talking to Paul as I quote his words and you condemn those words. Your problem, not mine. Your own words will condemn you too. For the measure that you judge is the exact measure that you will be judged with. If you condemn JWs on account of their belief that Jesus is not the One true God, then that measure will come against you in your belief that you worship 3 persons as God. Are you not being hypocritical.
1 John 5:10
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.You said
“we are warned in scripture that Satan deceives the whole world”
Yes he has deceived you.Again what you are really saying is that Satan had deceived Paul. Again this is a big problem for you, when you slander Paul and his words in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6. The more you speak, the more you condemn yourself because we are not only judged for works of darkness, but even more so for rejecting light.
Lets not also forget that the second century Fathers would have condemned you as a heretic for your polytheism and your rejection of the true Church of which they were all a part.
Global do you want me to quote from of these people with regards to their belief that the Father is the one
true God or would you prefer me to answer your questions you made earlier.Perhaps when I am doing this, you could answer my 2 earlier questions showing the One true God as being Jesus Christ in identity and what men will become after the resurrection with regards to nature and identity.
Hi T8,
I said I would answer your questions when I fully understand what your position is.
We havent yet arrived at that point because we havent yet seen how you reconcile your clearly stated belief in several divinities with your denial that you are a polytheist.
I know that you dont worship all of the divinities, but as I have said previously it is not necessary in a polytheistic system that you worship all or even any of the divinities, it is only necessary that you believe in their existence, which you have said you do.
Are you going to explain this or not?
- There is one Divine Identity.
- This Divinity shares his nature with his Son and with his sons.
- The one Divine Identity is the Father of all.
- There are many who partake in his nature.
- In other words the Father shares his nature.
- One God the Father and many who are one with him in Spirit.
So just as we are one with God in Spirit and yet we are not that Spirit, so it is that we partake of the divine nature, yet we are not the Divinity.
That does not explain it.
That is a re-statement of your beliefs, it describes that you believe in one big divinity (the divine identity), and lots of smaller divinities, but it does not explain how you are not a polytheist.
(Edited by global at 5:57 am on Nov. 7, 2003)
(Edited by global at 5:59 am on Nov. 7, 2003)
Then if I have not explained it, then neither has Paul in his statement in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.I am not saying anything new, I am really just repeating what Paul has said. Like I mentioned earlier, you need to talk to God about this. There is nothing more I can do for you.
If you cannot see that I am repeating Pauls words and you have a problem with these words, then surely your problem is with Paul.
Or perhaps you can explain this verse to me as you see it. I do not see any other way for you to move on. While you are at it, perhaps you can explain the verses that call us gods. Can you describe how we are called gods yet not be gods as you seem to say.
If you are stuck on Pauls words, then just admit it. If not, then explain them to me. Otherwise you will remain in this repetitive loop.
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