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HI Oxy,
You said“You quoted “6. 2 Cor. 13:14: “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”
So why is the Holy Spirit mentioned if He is not an identity, but part of God? Do you see the Holy Spirit as just a “force” as the JWs do? An “it”?”
The Spirit is the Spirit of God.
The Spirit is of God
The Spirit is the finger of God[Lk 11]
Would you divide God in heaven from His own Spirit?
God lives in heaven but does his work through His Spirit on earth.The Spirit is the Spirit of God. True
The Spirit is of God True
The Spirit is the finger of God[Lk 11] Not sure on this. The Bible doesn't actually say that the finger of the Lord is the Spirit. I thought the finger was more a recognition, similar to an accusation.
Would you divide God in heaven from His own Spirit? How could I? But Scripture records that God sent His Spirit, so can God divide Himself?
God lives in heaven but does his work through His Spirit on earth.TrueHi Oxy,
You say
“The Spirit is the finger of God[Lk 11] Not sure on this. The Bible doesn't actually say that the finger of the Lord is the Spirit. I thought the finger was more a recognition, similar to an accusation.”Lk 11
” 18If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.19And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.”
Compare Matt 12
” 26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.”
So the verses are almost exactly the same except where one reads
“Finger of God”
the other reads
“Spirit of God”Hi Oxy,
You say
“Would you divide God in heaven from His own Spirit? How could I? But Scripture records that God sent His Spirit, so can God divide Himself?”If God, who is spirit, does work by His Spirit on earth, why should we assume that Spirit is another person?
Is sending the Spirit the same as pouring out His Spirit?[Joel2]
Just because the amazing Spirit has person like qualities does not make the Spirit a person.
To say so is to go beyond the safety of scriptural revelation into vain speculation.
Hi,
This is the title of Mr Finneys false teaching
“SKELETONS”We should not be surprised because it is full,
and growing fuller daily,
of dead men's bonesHi ,
Mr Finney again
“THIRD. The sources of evidence.1. We are not to expect to gather clear evidence of the doctrine of the Trinity or Tri-Unity of God, from the works of creation, as the perfect moral and essential unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, would preclude all possibility of discrepancy of views or operations in the creation or government of the universe. Every thing, therefore, in the creation and government of the material universe, may be expected to indicate only the existence of one God, without distinct notices of a Trinity of persons.
2. The only source from which we can expect proof, is that of direct revelation, oral or inspired.”
Point one shows the clear bias of the writer
Point two he has failed to provide.Hi,
Mr Finneys tests
“1. We are not to expect that the quo modo, or mode of the divine existence will be, by revelation, made intelligible to, or brought so within the comprehension of our minds, that we shall be able fully to understand it. All that we can know of infinite is, that it exists; but whether an infinite mind subsists in one or many persons in one substratum of being, we cannot know but by a divine revelation. And by revelation we can only know the fact, without a possibility of comprehending the quo modo.[Failed]2. We are not to expect such a formal and metaphysical statement of the doctrine as has been common in polemic theology; for this is not the manner in which revelation is given upon any subject.[who knows what this means?]
3. We may reasonably expect evidence, direct, inferential, incidental, full, and conclusive, or otherwise, as the knowledge and belief of it is more or less essential to salvation.[Failed-no direct evidence]
4. If it be a fundamental doctrine, or a doctrine the belief of which is essential to salvation, it is reasonable to expect traditionary notices of it, where there are traditionary notices in heathen nations of other fundamental truths of revelation.[Proved to be a heathen religious deity rather than our God]
You still haven't explained Hebrews 1:8-9 Nick
And what you've posted above is far from convincing. You know that for every argument one way, there is an argument for the other.
And you still haven't explained how, if the Father and the Spirit are one and the same, how come He “sends” Himself??
Hi Oxy,
You say
“And you still haven't explained how, if the Father and the Spirit are one and the same, how come He “sends” Himself?? ”Would you say that God sending His Spirit was strong evidence that the Spirit is another person?
Joel 2
” 28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:”Whose spirit is poured out? Is it another person?
Is 61
“1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me;”
Whose Spirit?Acts 10.38
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”
Did
God the Father anoint
God the Son with
God the Holy SpiritThen who was the God with him?
God is in heaven where Jesus told us to pray to Him.
Matt 6
” 9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”God sends His Spirit to men on earth to be ONE with HIM.
We cannot have such unity unless the Spirit is still ONE WITH GOD
It is in that unity we communicate with God Himself
Rom 8
“26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God”
Mat 28:19 Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 9:8 the Holy Spirit signifying by this that the way into the Holiest of all was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today if you will hear His voice,
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption.
2Co 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own,
1Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and troubled His Holy Spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them.
Mat 12:31 Therefore I say to you, All kinds of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.
So it is that we see that the Holy Spirit is a teacher, a comforter, a guide and can be offended. Obviously there are many more Scriptures concerning the Holy Spirit, but I'm sure you know them and have put your own interpretation on them
Hi Oxy,
Is not the Spirt of God amazing?To lie to the Spirit is to lie to God[Acts 4]
To blaspheme Jesus is not as serious as to blaspheme the Spirit.
The reason?
The Spirit is of God who is greater than His SonHi Oxy,
You said “, but I'm sure you know them and have put your own interpretation on them ” That is not very nice.
We try to test all things according to scripture here.Quote (Oxy @ Sep. 06 2006,03:17) Mat 28:19 Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
[/b]
Hi Oxy, Baptising them in the name of:1. the Father
2. the Son
3. the Holy SpiritIf we are to understand the use of the word 'name' here to mean that the Holy Spirit is a person, where does Scripture reveal what that name is?
We can clearly establish the name of the Father, and the name of the Son from Scripture, but where do we find the name of the Holy Spirit?
Secondly can you show me where in the Scriptures the Holy Spirit is addressed in prayer? I can find no place where prayer, song or adoration is addressed to the Holy Spirit. To my knowledge there is not one precept in the Bible authorising such prayer or song.
Thirdly, can you show me from the Scriptures where we are taught to love, honor or worship the Holy Spirit. Surely if the Holy Spirit was a person like you advocate, then it seems strange that due acknowledgement is not given to such fact, after the fashion given to that of the Father and Son?
Fourthly, Why is the Spirit not mentioned in the hymn of adoration as as detailed in Revelation 5:13; 7:10? Strange do you not think?
Fifthly, if the Holy Spirit is a person, why did the Apostle Paul omit to include the Holy Spirit in the salutation as given at the beginning of each of his epistles? In each case he says, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”
Go check here: Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 1:3, Galatians 1:3, Ephesians 1:3, Philippians 1:2, Colossians 1:2, i Thessalonians 1:1, 2 Thessalonians 1:2, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:2, Titus 1:4, and Philemon 1:3.
Surely this is a terrible oversight on the part of Apostle Paul, if the Holy Spirit holds equal rank with the Father and the Son? If so, he has failed to give due recognition to the fact. Strange that the same Holy Spirit who moves men to write the Scriptures, didn't prompt Paul to give recognition along with the Father and the Son, in each of the references mentioned above.
Lastly when David prayed for God to not take the Holy Spirit from him, (Psalm 51:11) What was he actually praying for?
What was it that David had, that he didn't want to lose?Shall appreciate your comments.
Elidad
Nick, I want to thank you.
When I first came on this site I strongly believed that God was the Father (God Almighty), The Son (The Word of God) and the Holy Spirit.
You cast a seed of doubt in my mind which made me search the Scriptures and consider all that was said in this discussion. Was I mistaken? Did I get it wrong?
Having seen all of the arguments on these discussion pages, having searched the Scriptures and the Spirit of God I have come to a conclusion.
I stand stronger than ever before in my resolve that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Hi Oxy,
It is not our job to change anyone's mind. That work is of God. We do try to present accurately what is written in the scriptures and let everyone make an informed choice.I hope, for your sake, that your choice proves everlastingly resilient, and can be defended when you meet the Master.
If we are to understand the use of the word 'name' here to mean that the Holy Spirit is a person, where does Scripture reveal what that name is? I don't profess to know all things, but I do wonder if the Holy Spirit had been given a name that He too would have been blasphemed as are “God” and “Jesus”. This would have resulted in MANY people being condemned without chance of reconciliation.
We can clearly establish the name of the Father, and the name of the Son from Scripture, but where do we find the name of the Holy Spirit? The Scripture you quoted does in fact include the name of the Holy Spirit. His name is Holy Spirit
Secondly can you show me where in the Scriptures the Holy Spirit is addressed in prayer? I can find no place where prayer, song or adoration is addressed to the Holy Spirit. To my knowledge there is not one precept in the Bible authorising such prayer or song. It is not given to us to worship or pray to the Holy Spirit, but He is given more reverence in a way than Father and Word in that there are serious consequences for blaspheming Him
Thirdly, can you show me from the Scriptures where we are taught to love, honor or worship the Holy Spirit. Surely if the Holy Spirit was a person like you advocate, then it seems strange that due acknowledgement is not given to such fact, after the fashion given to that of the Father and Son?As above
Fourthly, Why is the Spirit not mentioned in the hymn of adoration as as detailed in Revelation 5:13; 7:10? Strange do you not think? I do not consider this strange at all. God set things in order the Way He wanted them. I have no problems accepting that.
Fifthly, if the Holy Spirit is a person, why did the Apostle Paul omit to include the Holy Spirit in the salutation as given at the beginning of each of his epistles? In each case he says, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” As above
Surely this is a terrible oversight on the part of Apostle Paul, if the Holy Spirit holds equal rank with the Father and the Son? If so, he has failed to give due recognition to the fact. Strange that the same Holy Spirit who moves men to write the Scriptures, didn't prompt Paul to give recognition along with the Father and the Son, in each of the references mentioned above. I have never said that the Holy Spirit holds equal rank with Father and Son.
Lastly when David prayed for God to not take the Holy Spirit from him, (Psalm 51:11) What was he actually praying for?
What was it that David had, that he didn't want to lose? God gives the Holy Spirit and can take away. No probs.Consider this verse. Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.
These words were spoken by Jesus, therefore I have no doubt that Jesus also sees the Holy Spirit as a “He” rather than “it”.
Also consider than the Holy Spirit is Teacher, Guide, Comforter, Revealer of Truth. How can you say He is not a He?
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