The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Whom did Jesus call the true God?
Jn 17.3
” 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Do you agree with him?

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
THis is what Paul said

1Cor 8
” 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. “
Do you agree with him?

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
This is what Peter said
1Peter 1.2
” 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
Do you believe him?

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
This is what John said,
Do you believe him?
1Jn 1 5f
” 5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. “

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Is Jesus the revealer of God or that God he reveals?
“. Over and above the statement that Jesus' word is the word of God, Jesus himself is called “the Word” (Jn. 1:1, 14). That is, Jesus' words (of proclamation) as the words of God are grounded in Jesus' being as the Word. “He is not called the Logos absolutely because he utters the word or words of God; on the contrary, his words rather have the force of God's words because he is the Logos, that is, the divine revealer and redeemer”

Is he the Word spoken by God or the God who spoke the Word?
Is he a being as said here because a being has life in himself so cannot share the being of God?

“1) The pre-existent being of the Word (Jn. 1:1-4). “In the beginning”–not “at the beginning” of Creation (Gen. 1:1), but in the “time before time” of divine eternity–was the Word (pre-existence of the Word, Jn. 1:1), the Word was with God (personal reference, Jn. 1:2), indeed, “the Word was God” (essential divinity of the Word, Jn. 1:1). “

Can God have a relationship with Himself? Surely that takes two beings?

“In the second clause the verb “to be” describes a relationship—the logos was with God in the sense of being in his presence”
“Finally, after saying that the incarnate logos, Jesus Christ, has replaced the Law given through Moses, John identifies him as the monogenēs theos (the unique one of God) who reveals the unseen God. This logos has a personal relationship with the Father.”

Did Jesus not empty himself to become like us?
” Thus the incarnation of the Word does not mean that Jesus in his pure humanity proclaims the eschatological word of God (R. Bultmann, The Gospel of John, 1971, 35 f.; and Theology of the New Testament, II, 1955, 40-49, 59-69). Over against what is in point of fact a kenotic interpretation–i.e. one which eliminates the divinity of Jesus “

[epistemaniac]

or…. according to your view concerning the number of times something appears in Scripture…. we might ask how many times are these “gods” spoken of as being false gods….?

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
You really must protest that the writer of the article you presented proclaims Jesus to be a BEING before he was born.

“1) The pre-existent being of the Word (Jn. 1:1-4). “

It is anathema to the teaching of trinity to say there is more than one God. To say the Word is another BEING defies the basis of that theory, that there are three persons in one being, God.

Come on be fair and consistent.

[epistemaniac]

I often hear the accusation from antitrinitarians that since human judges are called “gods” and Satan is called the “god of this world” etc, that this supposedly has some profound impact as to the fact that Jesus is specifically, in several passages, called God.

But, the anti-trinitarian position founders at this key point, God says:

Exo 20:3 ESV “You shall have no other gods before me.”

Exo 34:13-16 ESV You shall tear down their altars and break their pillars and cut down their Asherim (14) (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), (15) lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they whore after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and you are invited, you eat of his sacrifice, (16) and you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters whore after their gods and make your sons whore after their gods.”

Isa 45:5-6 ESV I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, (6) that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.”

Isa 45:14 ESV Thus says the LORD: “The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over to you and be yours; they shall follow you; they shall come over in chains and bow down to you. They will plead with you, saying: 'Surely God is in you, and there is no other, no god besides him.'”

Isa 45:18 ESV For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the LORD, and there is no other.”

Isa 45:21-22 ESV Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. (22) “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”

etc etc

So, there is only one true God, period. And Yahweh is that God. Pretty clear right?

What this means then is this, that all the other beings called “god”, other then Yahweh, are false gods!!! Thus, according to the faulty anti-trinitarian hermeneutic, it MUST necessarily follow that since Jesus is called “God”, Jesus, if He is not in some fundamental way one with Yahweh, is and has to be a FALSE god! So anti-trinitarians are faced with either accepting the fact that Jesus is called God, and that He must be the true God, or with abandoning the NT, and joining in with the Judaizers or Marcionites, picking and choosing the Scriptures they will accept according to their man made philosophy about what the Bible “must” say, according to their a priori presuppositions and not according to true biblical faith, once for all delivered to the saints.

Only the Trinitarian view can make sense of this fact, that Jesus is God, that He is NOT a false God, and this is because He is essentially one with the father in essence.

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Round and round the trinity mulberry bush.
Ignore most of scripture and follow these simple rules.

God is one.
There are no other gods.
Jesus is God.
We cannot have two gods
God must have multiple personalities
So if there are two why not add another and have three.

Such is the simplistic folly of trinity theory.

[Proclaimer]

To epistemaniac

But you cannot ignore the scriptures where men and angels are called theos.

So just because someone is a theos, but not the Most High theos, then you cannot assume that they are false.

In fact the term Most High Theos, would lead someone to assume that there were lesser theos's.

NOTE: The Devil is the god of this age/world. That is he is the true god of this world. He is not the false god of this world/age.

Also why would God asked other gods/angels to worship him if they were false.

Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods! (elohim)

John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Notice the last scripture:

It says that God said 'I have said you are gods'.
Jesus referred to the one who spoke this as another. He said:
'If he called them 'gods,'.

He didn't say “I called them gods”.

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Jesus himself said in Jn 4 we should worship the Father and he is our teacher is he not?
How many deities do you worship?

[epistemaniac]

Hi N did you know that Jesus is to be worshipped… do you worship Him N?

[epistemaniac]

Matthew 2:2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”

Matthew 2:11 “And when they had come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him.”

Matthew 14:33 “Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, Truly you are the Son of God.”

Matthew 28:9 “And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, Rejoice! And they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.”

Matthew 28:17 “And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.”

John 9:38 “Then he said, ‘Lord, I believe!’ And he worshiped Him.”

Hebrews 1:6 “But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

[epistemaniac]

so N…. will you obey the Scriptures and worship the Son?

Joh 5:22-23 ESV The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, (23) that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Deities are worshiped.
God is one and we worship one God.
If Jesus is a deity he is another God.
He told us to worship the Father.
The branches do not worship the vine
nor the members of the body the head.
Those outside of Christ will worship him.

Ps 2
” 10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

E as you speak of a triune being God yet are happy to call the Son a deity and demand we worship him, so then please do not neglect the third PERSON and show us from scripture that we should worship him.

Scripture instead shows us the Spirit helps us worship God.
What gives?

Rom 8
” 26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
FRom dictionary .com
Being
“a living thing:”
Now if the Word is a BEING that exists
then the Word has life in itself.

That should not surprise us as Jesus said In Jn 5

” 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”

So the Son is truly begotten of God.
He is the only begotten Son.
He has life in himself as you have agreed unless you differ with the author of document you posted.

So enough of this trinitarian “eternal begettal” that means the Son of God is never really the Son of God but the term is just a title.

We can perhaps put that behind us and accept
that the Word of God emptied himself,
came as one of us,
and was a vessel for the works of his Father? .

[Proclaimer]

Quote (epistemaniac @ Sep. 02 2006,21:57)

Matthew 2:2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” Matthew 2:11 “And when they had come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him.” Matthew 14:33 “Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, Truly you are the Son of God.” Matthew 28:9 “And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, Rejoice! And they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.” Matthew 28:17 “And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.” John 9:38 “Then he said, ‘Lord, I believe!’ And he worshiped Him.” Hebrews 1:6 “But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

To epistemaniac

The argument that says Jesus was worshipped, therefore he must be God, doesn't hold. If it did, then the following scripture would be saying that some Christians were God too.

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

But the truth is, we shouldn't worhip anyone or anything as God, but God. In fact Jesus was not worshipped as God at all, rather the son of God and the lamb.

Revelation 5: 12-14
12 In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God”.

Hebrews 1:1-6
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”.
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

Where is it recorded that Jesus was worshipped as the Almighty God?

The first verse I quoted above, clearly shows that the lamb is another.

shachah is the word used for “worship” in the OT, which means:

[Elidad]

Did the disciples worship Jesus? Should Christians worship someone other than God? Does worship of Jesus prove He is God?

The word, worship, has several different shades of meaning, as already pointed out by ‘t8’.

Others seem to have no aversion to ‘copying and pasting’ to this Forum, so I have taken the same liberty, as I have no time to type out re-expression of much the same line of thinking. But seeing much is made of the matter of worshipping Jesus, as argument to prove that He is God, then the subject is worthy of closer thought and examination. I take no credit for what follows, but agree with it in full; please read on:

WORSHIP! In the English language it can mean: 1. Reverent homage or service paid to God. 2. Recognition, honor, respect given to men. 3. Great love or adoration for a person or thing. 4. A title of respect for some officials. (such as magistrates or mayors)

In the Bible, the main meaning comes across as much the same.

1. To bow down before. 2. By kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication.

It is used of homage shown to superior rank …. to GOD; and to MEN; and to ANGELS.

WHEN ANGELS OR MEN RECEIVE “WORSHIP” IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOD! WORSHIP OF GOD ALONE

It can be seen above that “worship” has several meanings. But there is ONE particular sense in which GOD ALONE is to be worshipped. Worship in this sense applies to no other.

There are many places in the Old Testament where it is clear that The LORD is to be the sole object of divine worship. The LORD (Yahweh) is the ONLY GOD.

“For thou shalt worship NO OTHER GOD: for the LORD, (Yahweh) whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” (Exodus 34:14)

It is quite clear from many OT references that God the Father is Yahweh, and that Jesus is NOT Yahweh.

IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
It was Jesus who said:
“You shall worship the Lord your God and him ONLY shall you serve”. (Matt 4:10) and, “This is eternal life, that they might know thee the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. (John 17:3)
and,
“I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to MY God, and YOUR God.” (John 20:17)
and,
“True worshippers shall worship THE FATHER in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.” (John 4:23)

From this we understand that Jesus directs all (primary) worship to His Father, and that Jesus Himself intends us to understand that He is NOT to be worshipped as the One True God.

THE STATUS OF JESUS
When the OT prophets foretell the coming of the Messiah, he is made SECOND in rank after GOD. e.g. “Sit thou at my right hand.” (Psalm 110:1)

Any HONOR, or RANK, predicted for the Messiah, is DERIVED or DELEGATED from His Father.

WORSHIP OF JESUS

BY ANGELS.
“Let all the angels of God worship him.” (Hebrews 1:6)

BY THOMAS.
“My Lord and my God”. (John 20:28)

BY ALL MEN.
“Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:9-11)

In each of these places “worship” cannot mean quite the same as it does when applied to Yahweh. Instead it has the secondary meaning of bowing the knee to someone of superior rank.

In my country, it is customary to bow to the Governor General, not in his own right, but as a token of homage to the Queen, whose representative he is. When we “worship” Jesus, it means much the same thing. He is the RULER appointed by GOD. We acknowledge the authority of God vested in Him as God's representative.

Philippians explains that men are to bow before Jesus (worship) because He has been exalted by God. This is actually worship of GOD, WHO EXALTED Him. It is done to the GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER ….. not to Jesus as God!

WORSHIP OF MEN

“But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have WORSHIP in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.” (Luke 14:10) Newer versions use “honor” instead of “worship”.

“Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan ….. to come and WORSHIP before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.” (Revelation 3:9)

Of course the MEN who are worshipped here are NOT supplanting God, or being worshipped as GOD! They are merely being acknowledged as of superior rank to those who bow before them.

Let's close with the last message from the angel who brought the vision to John from Jesus. Speaking for Jesus, the angel said:

WORSHIP GOD! (Rev 22:9)

Elidad

[kenrch]

Amen!

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Do you agree with the disciples of Jesus whom you quoted as saying
“Truly you are the Son of God.”?
Or is it just a title?

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