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Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 24 2006,23:50) as an aside… its kind of interesting to feel somewhat like Athanasius who was contra mundum in regard to the Trinity….. and to point out that no matter how much people complain about Constatine supposedly inventing the Trinity… it was Constintine I who banished Athanasius for TEACHING THE TRINITY!!
Correct. He was banished in the end and the next emperor favoured Arius I think.The point is that the truth is not found in Athanasius nor Arius.
Jesus said he was the truth.
Jesus never taught that he was God nor that he was a mere created being either. He taught us that he was/is the son of God and the messiah. But for some reason scripture is not enough for some men and they have to follow after Athanasius, Arius, Jimmy Jones, Martin Luther, or whoever.
Is Christ divided?
Quote As far as Jesus being His own Father, this is a very simplistic, even juvenile, response. Jesus’ being God does not mean He is His Father, this is actually an example of taking a fleshly human relationship (a human Father’s relationship to his son) and trying to make a simile or metaphor, and insisting on a rigid application in such a way as to end of with not only nonsense, but a committal of the informal fallacy of category confusion. No matter what you think the phrase “Son of God” means, it most certainly does not mean that Jesus is a son in the same sense that any human male is a son. So Jesus’ being God does not in any way make Him His own Father. We are talking about a relationship that is not biological in nature (its sad to even have to take the time and effort to say this) but is rather one of relation and economy, and relationship based on roles in creation and salvation, not one of biological progeny. Hi Epistemaniac, Sorry for delay in responding to your further exceedingly long post. Have had to trip to another town.
You do me honor and yourself a dis-service, by referring to my comments as juvenille. By doing such you put me in good standing with Christ, who said,“Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”
Perhaps it is my child like (juvenille) faith that provides ability to see that the doctrine of the Trinity, and related so called 'proof' texts, are not the truth. After all, it was a child who pointed out to the many, that the Emperor was 'wearing no clothes'; I am sure you know the story.Quote Titus 2:13’s meaning does not stand or fall based solely on the application of Granville Sharp’s in regard to the absence or presence of the definite article. There are other reasons to suppose that the Bible is saying here that Jesus is God, were I to grant that Grnavill Sharp does not actually apply to this passage, and you certainly have done nothing to prove this to be the case either. Simply stating that it might not apply does not mean it doesn't.[/B] You say the meaning taken from this text does not depend on the Granville Sharp rule, because there are other reasons why this should be taken the way you are reading it, but you have failed to clearly spell out, what those other reasons are. This text cannot stand alone to support your viewpoint, because there is disagreement over how it should be translated. What other information do you have, apart from the Granville Sharp rule, to show that it can only be read and understood the way you take it, apart from that which you have already called upon?
you said “The highly regarded Trinitarian Henry Alford gives a number of reasons as to why the grammar of the Greek does not force the interpretation of the passage to make Christ God.”
So, since you take this scholar’s word on this passage, do you take it as well regarding his belief in the Trinity?
You ask why I do not take notice of what else Henry Alford says regarding the Trinity. The answer to that is quite simple. Alford, whilst being very open about what he thinks Titus 2:13 is not saying, fails to see that the rest of his arguments drawn from Scripture elsewhere, also fail to make up the case lost by trying to use Titus 2:13.
Quote I see nothing doubtful at all about the opinions I gave regarding Paul clearly stating that Jesus is God in this passage and other passages as well.The doubt is strictly in your mind only, perhaps you are bothered by this, and feel your own supposedly firm foundation creaking and giving way under the weight of the biblical testimony such that you feel the need to project your own doubts on to me? That is understandable given the weight and clarity of the biblical testimony against your man made opinions. Am I to take it that your 'opinions' are not 'man made' and any 'opinions' that I refer to are 'man made' ? How did you arrive at this determination?
Quote You will either have to elevate the Scriptures to their proper place, or try and force them into your presuppositions as to what the Bible MUST say in order to support your previously held beliefs. This is a typical pattern for persons who do not want to change their beliefs I think the shoe is on the other foot here. I will give you one clear example where Trinitarians force the Scriptures to fit their presuppositions. This is what is written in the Scriptures, drawing from Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29 – “Hear O Israel the LORD our God is one LORD” whereas drawing on Trinitarian presuppositions, we are told that this must be read as, “Hear O Israel the LORD or God is a three in one LORD”
This is a classic case of adding to the word of God, violating Proverbs 30:5-6, “Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”
Quote . One has to be convinced in their own mind which paradigm best comports with the overall testimony in Scripture. In my case, it seems to me that if anyone were to read Titus 2:13 (as well as the other passages I mentioned earlier) in any number of modern translations, they would come to the simple and self evident conclusion that Jesus is God. Of course the 'modern' translations put the slant on Titus 2:13 that you are appealing to, because the translators involved will be alllowing their bias to dictate which way to render the text. The same would be true if the team of translators was made up of Biblical Unitarians. Their bias would influence how they rendered this text, especially when the precise meaning is not clear, and a choice is available.
Look Epistemaniac, I could go on and on here, and end up with a post as long as yours, if not longer, but the long and the short of it all is, Titus 2:13 does not provide concrete evidence for the viewpoint that you are espousing, nor any of the other related references that you mention.
Seeing you draw on the opinions of many others, going by the amount of copying and pasting, evident in your posts, I think you should also add the opinion of Richard E. Rubenstein to your list by reading his book, “When Jesus became God“, if you haven't already done so. Perhaps it will help you see things in their proper perspective. Of course he is not the only writer I could recommend, but this is a good start to help get a rounded view of the issues.
Given that my time is going to be limited for awhile, I might not be able to make ready response to any further comments that you may raise. If possible, could you please keep them short.
Regards
ElidadHi Eli,
He must be sure you are not a brother in the Lord
to speak to you in that way,
and we do not agree that this is so.Quote (Ambassador of Christ @ May 18 2002,08:05) Let me first thank those who run this site for allowing me the opportunity to make this post. I will be addressing the question of Jesus Christ's deity. This issue is not new, nor are the arguments surrounding it. However, one side is true, and one side is false. Either Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man, or he was only fully man. Those who believe that scripture is truly God's word must also believe that there are no contradictions in scripture. Any such contradiction would prove error in God's word, thus error in God. Such error is impossible; therefore any inerrancy found in scripture must be as a result from human error in interpretation. The fact that scripture is without contradictions will prove to be the biggest factor in proving which belief is true and which is false. I have studied the deity of Christ from both a Trinitarian perspective as well as a non-Trinitarian perspective and have found that there is overwhelming evidence that scripture very clearly states that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human. There are countless ways in which to approach proving this issue with scripture, however to start off, I will begin with some basics. If needs be, I will continue the scriptural proof in more detail in another post so to keep this one as short as possible. I will begin with three contradictions that arise if Jesus Christ is NOT God.
1) Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
—According to verse 8, this is talking about the Son of God, not the Father. This verse tells us that Jesus Christ was not only pre-existent to his humanity on earth, but that He existed in the beginning even before creation and that by His hands He created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This verse tells us that the only thing in existence in the beginning was God, and that God created the heavens and the earth. According to Genesis 1:1 we find that God was the only one in the beginning that that He created the heavens and the earth. According to Hebrews 1:10 we find that Jesus Christ was in the beginning and created the heavens and the earth. If Jesus Christ is not God, then these two verses contradict each other. The only way Hebrews 1:10 is true is if Jesus Christ is in fact God.2) Exodus 34:14, –for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God— According to this verse, God is the only person who is to be worshiped. Jesus Christ is worshiped throughout the New Testament not only by humans (Matthew 2:2, Mark 5:6, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, etc.) but also by the angels (Hebrews 1:6). If Jesus Christ is not God, then there is a major contradiction in scripture. If Christ is not God then all the angels are guilty of idolatry as well as humans. More severely, if Christ is not God, then Jesus Christ himself is guilty of sin. If Christ is not God, then He sinned every time He accepted and encouraged those who worshiped Him. Also, in his confrontation with Satan in the desert, Jesus Christ commands Satan to “Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.” (Matthew 4:10). We also know that according to Philippians 2:10 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” This means that all will fall subject to, worship, give homage, and praise Jesus Christ, be it voluntary or involuntary. This includes Satan himself. If Jesus Christ is not God, then He is lying in his instruction to Satan. Jesus tells Satan to worship ONLY God, and then later Satan is found worshiping Jesus.
3) Finally, according to Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.” The word LORD in this verse is the Hebrew word YAHWEH, which means God. God is our only savior, and only God is able to forgive our sins and give us salvation. However, Jesus Christ not only forgave sins (Matthew 9:6) be He also is our savior (Titus 1:4, 2 Peter 1:11, etc.). If Jesus Christ is not God, then again there is contradiction in scripture. Furthermore, if Jesus Christ is not God, then we have no savior, and thus no salvation.
As established in Hebrews 1:10, the fact that Jesus Christ preexisted to his time on earth proves that He is in fact God. When scripture tells us that Christ “came in the flesh” it establishes that Christ has eternally existed and affirms that He is fully God. That is why 2 John 1:7 is so important: “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Those who do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ is fully God are false and are not from God. In fact, confessing that Jesus is God is how we test if someone is from God or from the adversary: 1 John 4:2-3 “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.”
I hope this helps anyone lost in falseness or confused about the truth. I will continue to pray for those who are lost that God opens their hearts so that they will know the truth of God and worship in that truth and in spirit.
-God Bless
THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Biblical Truth from GOD, or man-made false doctrine? Holy or unholy?
IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS! Check it out!Do you really know what you believed in? Check it out and think again?
HOSEA 4:6 MY PEOPLE ARE DESTROYED FOR A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE
the trinitarian philosophical DOGMA
Version 1 Three distinct Gods, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Co-equal, co-substance, co-nature, co-essence, co-eternal, co-existing. Cannot be fully understood for it’s a Mystery within itself
Version 2 One God in three distinct persons, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Co-equal, co-substance, co-nature, co-essence, co-eternal, co-existing. Cannot be fully understood for it’s a Mystery within itself
Word Origin – From a Latin word Trinitas – meaning “triad”
Historical Summary and Origin;
From a Judaeo-Hellenistic theory which later on evolved to become a dogma of faith among early Christians after the apostles under the world rule of the Roman empire . According to this theory by this so called theologians and religious intellectuals, God has “evolved” (changed) from One before and in the beginning, to Two persons in the Old Testament prophets, to Three in the New Testament apostles. (so they as men say)
In 325 AD, more than two centuries after the last of the apostles of Jesus Christ our Lord had died, Greek-Roman scholars, theologians, rulers and so called religious intellectuals like Epiphanius, Arius, Athanasius, Thomas Aquinas and many others tried to interpret the holy scriptures among themselves and came up with a DOGMA called “TRINITY” and was first introduced in the First Council of Nicea 325 AD. This was later on affirmed and upheld by Constantine the Great, Emperor of Roman empire the First Council of Constantinople 381 AD.
Pressure and persecution from the government and this newly adopted dogma of a fast growing new unified world religion and the great crusades, for the next succeeding 1,100 years after several generations had passed, tr
ansformed this dogma into a tradition and accepted religion of almost the entire Christian world…even until today.
(source Collier’s Encyclopedia, Vol 22, page 480-481, copyright 1995, and other major Encyclopedias and major World History References)THE ORIGIN OF TRINITARIAN DOGMA
Trinity (theology), in Christian theology, doctrine that God (SUPPOSEDLY) exists as three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who are united in one substance or being. The doctrine is not taught explicitly in the New Testament, where the word God almost invariably refers to the Father; but already Jesus Christ, the Son, is seen as standing in a unique relation to the Father, while the Holy Spirit is also emerging as a distinct divine person.
The term trinitas was first used in the 2nd century, by the Latin theologian Tertullian (Not among the apostles), but the concept was developed in the course of the debates (HUMAN LOGIC AINTERPRETATION AND REASONINGS) on the nature of Christ (see Christology). In the 4th century, the doctrine was finally formulated; using terminology still employed (TRADITIONS AND INFLUENCE) by Christian theologians, the (FALSE) doctrine taught the coequality of the persons of the Godhead. In the West, the 4th-century theologian St. Augustine's influential work De Trinitate (On the Trinity, 400-16) compared the three-in-oneness of God with analogous structures in the human mind (CARNAL THINGKING) and suggested that the Holy Spirit may be understood as the mutual love between Father and Son (although this second point seems difficult to reconcile with the belief that the Spirit is a distinct, coequal member of the Trinity). The stress on equality, however, was never understood as detracting from a certain primacy of the Father—from whom the other two persons derive, even if they do so eternally. For an adequate understanding of the trinitarian conception of God, the distinctions among the persons of the Trinity must not become so sharp that there seems to be a plurality of gods, nor may these distinctions be swallowed up in an undifferentiated monism.
The doctrine of the Trinity may be understood on different levels. On one level, it is a means of construing the word God in Christian discourse. God is not a uniquely Christian word, and it needs specific definition in Christian theology. This need for a specifically Christian definition is already apparent in the New Testament, where Paul says, “there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'—yet for us there is one God, the Father …, and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 8:5-6). These words constitute the beginning of a process of clarification and definition (and confusion), of which the end product is the doctrine of the Trinity. At another level, the doctrine may be seen as a transcript of Christian experience: The God of the Hebrew tradition had become known in a new way, first in the person of Christ, and then in the Spirit that moved in the church. On a third, speculative level of understanding, the doctrine reveals the confused state of the Christian conception of God—involving notions of a source, a coming forth, and a return (primordial, expressive, and unitive Being). In this sense, the Christian doctrine has parallels both in philosophy (the 19th-century German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel's Absolute) and in other religions (the Trimurti of Hinduism).TRINITY PARA LLELISM FROM OTHER PAGANISTIC AND HEATHEN RELIGIONS
Triad, in religion and mythology, a group of three associated gods.
1. The Hindu triad (Trimurti) consists of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva;. Christian beliefs have the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Triads occur in many belief systems.
2. The Sumerians had a triad: Anna, Enlil, and Enki. These gods were the originals of the Babylonian triad: Anu, lord of heaven, Bel, lord of Earth, and Ea, lord of the abyss, dividing the universe between them.
3. In ancient Greek mythology, Zeus, Poseidon, and Pluto formed a triad.
4. In Japan , Amida Buddha is often accompanied by the bodhisattvas Kwannon and Seishi.
5. Ancient Egyptians placed gods in formations of triads and enneads (of nine deities). The triad in any district usually consisted of a goddess, a god, and their son. Since the gods were mortal, the son was destined to take his father's place and was his exact counterpart.
6. At the center of a Daoist (Taoist) temple are the three manifestations of the Tao: Da I (“the Great Unity”), Ling Bao (“the Heavenly One”), and Dao De Tian Zun (“the Human One”).FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA (Birth of Christian Version of Trinity)
Held in 325, this first ecumenical council was convened by Constantine the Great, emperor of Rome , (A PAGAN WORSHIPPER OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE) to settle the Arian dispute concerning the nature of Jesus Christ (see Arianism) Of the 1800 bishops in the Roman Empire , 318 attended the council. The Nicene Creed, which defined the Son as consubstantial with the Father, was adopted as the official position of the church regarding the divinity of Christ.2ND COUNCIL OF NICEA
Held in 787, the second of the councils at Nicaea was the seventh ecumenical council. It was convened by Irene, empress of the East, and attended by 350 bishops, most of whom were Byzantine. In spite of strong objections by the iconoclasts, the council validated the veneration of images and ordered their restoration in churches throughout the Roman Empire .1ST COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE (Affirmed the Holy Ghost in the Trinity)
(381). This council was the second ecumenical council of the church. It was convened by Theodosius I, the emperor of the East. The 150 bishops meeting at the council condemned various religious sects as heretical (ORIGINAL EARLY TRUE CHRISTIANS OF THE APOSTOLIC FOLLOWINGS), reaffirmed the resolutions of the first ecumenical council of Nicaea (325), defined the Holy Spirit as consubstantial and coeternal with the Father and the Son in the divine Trinity, and proclaimed the bishop of Constantinople second in precedence to the bishop of Rome .
Encarta ® 2006. © 1993-2005. All rights reserved.LET’S INVESTIGATE USING THE BIBLE AS THE ROD OF REFERENCE OR RULER
FACTS OF TRINITARIAN DOGMA AGAINST BIBLICAL TRUTH AND TEACHINGSTRINITY DOCTRINE DECLARE Three distinct GODS in the godhead
THE BIBLE SAYS – There is only One True GOD (Deut 6:4; 5:7; Ex 20:2-5; 1 Kgs 8:23; Isa 43:10; 44:6; 44:24; 44:8; Mk 12:32; 1Jn 5:20; James 2:19…and many more. Please see separate tracts on ONE GODTRINITY DOCTRINE BELIEVES God The Son IS THE 2ND PERSON IN THE GODHEAD
THE BIBLE SAYS – Jesus was called the Son of God but never “God the Son”. Check it out! This cannot be found in the entire BIBLEThe Trinity Godheads are (said to be ) Co-equal, co-substance, co-nature, co-essence, co-eternal, co-existing
THE BIBLE SAYS – I am God alone (Isa 43:10) I am the First and the Last and besides me there is no God, the Alpha and Omega (Isa 44:6; Rev 22:13) is there a God beside me.. there is no God… I knew not any (Isa 44:8) There is no God like thee (1 kgs 8:23; 2Chro 2:5) and many more scripturesTHE Trinity – DECLARES ITSELF A Mystery that cannot be FULLY understood
The greatest alibi used by men as an excuse for a lack of knowledge and understanding.The mystery remains hidden only to the natural (ordinary) man for they can only be spiritually understood
THE BIBLE SAYS – (1 Cor 2:14) But God had revealed them to us by His Spirit (the Holy Ghost) 1 Cor 2:9-10 Understanding has been given through Christ Jesus ( Col 2:1-3)Trinity – God in three persons
Instead of God making man in His image, man has now tried to make God likened unto a man
THE BIBLE SAYS – (Roman 1:21-23) God the Father is not a person, it was his Title being the creator and source of all things. God the
Spirit is not a separate entity from the Father, it is the NATURE of God (Jn 4:23) Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God was the only manifestation and PERSON that God ever used to reveal Himself. (Jn 10:30; 14:7; 14:10; Heb 1:3; Phil 2: 6-7; 1 Tim 3:16)How about Trinity HISTORICAL ORIGIN?
It Did not come from the Apostles, not from Jesus Christ nor the prophets.Take notice that the apostles had been dead already for 2 centuries when this DOGMA was formulated by men who had fallen away from the truth
THE BIBLE SAYS – (Jude 1:4; Acts 20:29; 2 Thes 2:3; 1 Cor 11:18; 2 Tim 4:4; Rev 2:2) . Corruption of the Glory of the One True God by evil men have already been prophesied before it all began (Parable of the leavened bread Mat 13:13; Rom 1:21-23; Parable of the tares Mat 13:25)Concerning the claim that God has EVOLVED (Changed)
THE BIBLE SAYS – God himself declared, I am the Lord, I change Not. No God before and after ME (Mal 3:6; Isa 43:10)
\Trinity A dogma is of Roman origin
Rome is the seat of the anti-christ and false religions, the place where the blood of the apostles, martyrs and of Jesus Christ was shed, the power behind the Dark Ages, The modern day Babylon , the Whore of the Book of Revelation (Rev. 17:3)Trinity – evolved FROM PhYLOSOPHical theory TO tradition to an accepted religion
THE BIBLE SAYS – Be careful lest any man spoil you through vain philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ (Col 2:8) We transgress the commandments of God by our traditions (Mat 15:3; Mk 7:8;)APOSTOLIC CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST ( Cavite )
Block 13 Lot 20, Denmark St. Mandarin Homes GMA Cavite
Tel. No. 0919-386-2208QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE GODHEAD
1. 1. Is the word Trinity in the Bible? No
2. 2. Does the Bible say there are three persons in the Godhead? No
3. Does the Bible speak about the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost? Yes
4. Do these titles used in Mat. 28:19 mean that there are 3 separate and distinct person in the Godhead? No. They refer to 3 offices, roles or relationship to creation or humanity.
5. Does the Bible use the word three when referring to God ? Only once in 1 Jn 5:7. It speaks of the Father, The Word (instead of the Son) and the Holy Ghost…and it concludes that “these three are one”.
6. Does the Bible use the word “One” when referring to God ? Yes many times. For examples pls see scriptures on Zech 14:9, Mal 2:10, Mat. 23:9, Mk 12:29, Jn 8:41; 10:30, Rom 3:30, 1 Cor 8:4, Gal 3:20, 1 Tim 2:5, James 2:19
7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood ? Yes, Rom 1:20, Col 2:9, 1 Tim 3:16
8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father ? Yes Mat. 23:9
9. What did Jesus mean when He said to Philip ? “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father (Jn 14:9) ? Jesus is the express (full) image (substance, revelation ) of (Spirit and invisible) God. Hebrews 1:3,
10. Does the Bible say that there are 2 persons in the Godhead ? No
11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person ? Yes, in Jesus Christ 2Cor 4:4, Col 1:19; 2:9, Heb 1:3
12. Is the Mystery of the diety hidden from some people ? Yes, Luke 10:21-22
13. Who is the Father ? The Father is the One true God, as revealed in parental relationship to all creation and humanity. God in whom all things come from. Deut 32:6, Mal 2:10
14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on Earth ? The Father was in Christ Jn 14:10, II Cor 5:19, He was also in Heaven and everywhere else for God is omnipresent.
15. Did Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father ? Yes, Isa 9:6, 63:16
16. When God said in Gen 1:26 “Let us make man in our image and likeness” , was He speaking to another person in the Godhead ? no, He was speaking in a prophetic speech concerning His plan to create man in His image in likeness. The plan God has already started and its not finished yet. The express image and likeness of God with which man will be made to conform is in Christ Jesus. He is the perfect pattern of God’s likeness and image. One day God’s plan of creating man in His image and likeness (Like Jesus Christ) will be completed and finished.
17. How many of God’s Qualities were in Christ ? All, Col 2:9
18. Can God be seen? God is a Spirit and cannot be seen. But through the Body of the Lord Jesus Christ He allowed Himself to be seen by men an angels. When we see Jesus, we see God the Father in the flesh. God incarnate. Jn 12:44-45, 14:9
19. Does the bible says that Jesus is the almighty? Yes. Revelations 1:8
20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.
21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The holy ghost. But Jesus said that he was the first and the last. Revelation 1:17-18
22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelations 4:2
23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that he was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the old testament incarnate.
24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10
25. does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19
26. does the bible say that God, who is a word, was made flesh? Yes. John 1:1 – 14
27. for what purpose God was manifested into flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9-14
28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. 1 timothy 3:16
29. Could Jesus have been in the earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13
30. Does the bible say that there is only but one Lord? Yes. Isa.45:18; ephesians 4:5
31. Does the bible say that Christ is Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11
32. Does the bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. 1kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1.
33. How could the church belong to Jesus(Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God(1Cor. 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.
34. Will God give his glory to another? No. Isa.42:8
35. Was there God formed before Jehova, or will there any be one formed after? No. Isa 43:10
36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isa.44:8
37. What is one thing that God cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2
38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4
39. How many names of the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9
40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9
41. Does thne bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8
42. Why, then was Jesus able to walk upon the sea of Galilee(Matthew 14:25)? Because he is God the creator. Colosians 1:16
43. Is God the only one who can forgive sins ? Yes, Isa 43:25, Mk 2:7
44. Jesus forgave sins also in Mk 2:5-11, Because is the same God the savior in the flesh
45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes, 1 Jn 5:20
46. If God the Father and the Holy Ghost are two distinct person, which one is the Father of Christ ? Mat 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Rom 15:6, II Cor 11:31 and Eph 1:3 say that God was the Father. But if you believe that there is only One God, there is no more contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghst are one and the same Spirit. Mat 10:20, Eph 4:4, 1 Cor 3:16
47. When Paul asked the Lord who he was, the answer was “I am Jesus” Acts 9:5
48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus ? Yes Acts 7:59
49. Did Thomas ever called Jesus God ? Yes Jn 20:28
50. How could Jesus be the saviour, when God the Father said in Isa 43:11”besides me there is no saviour? Because God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself. 2 Cor 5:19
51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us ? Yes, Mat 1:23
52. Did Jesus ever say that I and My Father are one ? Yes, Jn 10:30
53. Can it be proven scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husbands and wife are one? No, the Godhead was never compared to the relationship of husband and wife. Jn 14:9-11
54. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God
55. Does the Bible say that the Holy Ghost is the secnd or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one that God Himself at work in our lives. Jn 4:24, 1 Cor 3:16-17
56. Can trinitarians prove that 3 divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John ? Absolutely Not. The one omnipresent
God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person is visible and present. Jesus Christ the Lord. Mat 3:16-1757. Does the Bible say that God shed His Blood ? Yes. Acts 20:28, 1Jn 3:16 God is able to do this because God had taken upon Himself a human body…. the body of Jesus Christ
58. The Bible teaches us that God is coming back with all His saints 1 Thes 3:13 Are two coming back ? No. Only one is coming back “ our great God and saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2:13
Hi Ws2,
You need to believe in the Son of God as salvation is in him.Jn 14.1
” 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. “Hi WS2,
You say
“THE TRINITY DOCTRINE
Biblical Truth from GOD, or man-made false doctrine? Holy or unholy?
IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS! Check it out!Do you really know what you believed in? Check it out and think again?
HOSEA 4:6 MY PEOPLE ARE DESTROYED FOR A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE”
This is true too about the follly of ONENESS belief.
Both deny the reality of the Son of God.
We were warned about those who deny the Master.
O.K Im new to this, but not to logical debate. Looking at your arguments I have to say that I am very impressed or I suppose grateful to T8 that he has taken so much time to search for the truth in the scriptures. To some others why these concepts? What is the source of your belief? Pray, read scripture, not the nicene creed, keep what you know as truth, don't grab anything else. Do you not truly listen to these scriptures?
“Hear this now, O foolish people, without understanding,
Who have eyes and see not, and who have ears and hear not.” Jeremiah 5:21. It seems this talk is already over for many because it is all to prove your points and not any understanding. For even if a scripture that says “You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” John 14:28. Truth, truth not doctrine, truth not numbers, truth not safety. I honestly believe that if the doctrine of the trinity were in the bible I would believe it for I believe in the words of Jesus Christ. Peace to all of you.hi nick , im not a trinitarian.i believed in the oneness of God, and im not a trinitarian. the reason why i post that its because i want to show the history of trinity, and for me its really unbiblical.:)
WOW you people SEROIUSLY need to stop copying and pasting stuff before you look it up….
OKAY, for future reference 1 john 5:7 AKA the Johanneum Clause is NOT a valid scripture and was NOT in the original epistle of john…. STOP USING IT AS PROOF… look at ALL modern translations today and youll find they have taken it out for this VERY reason…
Intro
Hi folksWelcome to my essay on the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity. I decided to write this for many reasons. I will share some of these reasons with you here.
This is a document in process: there is a lot more that I would like to write, and so I will probably add to it in time. You might find some gaps and wonder why I have not covered a certain book of the Bible, or gone into further detail with a particular book. In time, I hope to fill in these gaps and give a more comprehensive essay on the subject.
First, I reckon that in studying this particular doctrine, we come to understand who Jesus Christ was when he walked this earth, who He is today and what impact His existence has on today's society as a whole and on our own personal lives.
Secondly, I have been challenged to write about this from a good friend who does not believe in the Trinity as a true Biblical doctrine. This, plus being given the same challenge by several different religious groups, led me to begin a study on the Trinity and work to gain greater understanding of the Bible.
You will see that my stand on the Trinity is as follows:
•The Doctrine of the Trinity is a Biblical doctrine and maintains sound analysis, especially when looking at the Biblical scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, in the original languages and context;
•Understanding the Trinity is the basis of understanding the impact of Jesus Christ on history, on today's society and on each of our lives;
•The Doctrine of the Trinity is our best description of a God who is beyond human conception;
•This description is best identified as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons yet one God;
•We are a reflection of our Creator, in that we are Sprit, Soul and Body (1 Thessalonians 5:23
As an aside, I would like to state some of my personal rules for studying the Scriptures:1.Biblical analysis always needs to be in context with other Scriptures.
2.Biblical analysis always needs to be in light of the language, cultures and thinking of the time, in order to fully understand the meaning.
3.Any point of contention needs to be submitted to authority (preferably more than one person) with a sound grasp of Biblical Scripture.
4.I ask the Holy Spirit to guide me in my reading and thinking.
5.I take time out to consider what is read.So, with these rules in mind, I look forward to this journey, and I invite you to take it with me.
The Trinity Doctrine in the Gospels
The Gospels are documents written either by disciples who personally experienced the ministry of Jesus Christ (Matthew, John) or by researchers who had been impacted by the ministry of Jesus Christ (Luke and Mark) through the witness of others and had met and interviewed key eye witnesses to this ministry.
Mark may have also been a witness to Christ’s ministry (his Gospel refers to a young boy who saw the arrest of Jesus, and was nearly taken himself, but escaped in time – some say Mark was referring to himself).
Things to remember about the Gospels are:
•They are events that condense three years of ministry of the Messiah, so not everything could be included: c/f John 21v25:
25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
•The Gospels wrote in different manners of literary method in their accounts
•Similar events and teachings may not have been the same events and occurrence of teaching: it is likely that Jesus repeated key topics frequently to different audiences during his ministry
•Despite this, it is wise to think of each scripture in the Gospels in relation to all other scriptures in context, especially the Old TestamentMatthew
I think it best to begin with the first gospel, yet go straight to the closing verses of this gospel: the account of Jesus giving the disciples the Great Commission.16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
There are several key factors here that Matthew wanted to highlight in his account:
•The disciples worshipped Jesus
•Some doubted
•Jesus has all authority given to him (meaning current, in the present sense)
•To baptise means to baptise in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
•They are to teach all nations (not just Israel), implying long-term discipleship of others
•Everything the disciples were commanded is to be taught as obedience by all nations (implying that Jesus is ruler over those nations)
•Jesus is with them (and necessarily so, us too) until the end.The fact that Matthew emphasises the worship of Jesus first is the main implication within this gospel that Jesus was regarded as more than just a rabbi and more than what the Jews of the time thought the Messiah was: they now regard Jesus as the object of worship, which a Jew would only give to YHWH/Adonai.
Some believe that Jesus earned the authority after the crucifixion and the resurrection. I would suggest however that there is no such implication in this scripture, and that Jesus’ authority had been given to him back before creation began. This would be in line with other scriptures (John 1 for example). That goes to show how much Jesus gave up to come amongst us and how much choice was involved in humbling himself in obedience to the Father
Mark
It pays to remember that Mark may have also been a witness to Christ’s ministry. His Gospel refers to a young boy who saw the arrest of Jesus, and was nearly taken himself, but escaped in time (Mark 14:51-52). Some say Mark was referring to himself.Mark records an interesting debate during the trial of Jesus. In Mark 14 61-62, a mighty declaration is made by Jesus in front of the high priest and the Sanhedrin.
61(b)Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?”
62”I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
63The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64″You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
The things to note about the high priest here are:
•The high priest had a pre-determined view of the Messiah
•The words of the high priest were aimed to trap Jesus by saying something that was outside of his own prejudices
•If Jesus simply said, “Yes”, it would equate Jesus with God the One and Only (as he would be the Son of the Blessed One)
•The high priest could not grasp that the Messiah could be a simple man like the one standing in front of him: he could only conceive of the Messiah as either a great untouchable king (i.e. equal with God) or perhaps, as some traditions of the time believed, a mere mortalJesus took it all one step further, showing the error of the high priest’s interpretations and revealing Jesus’ own deity in the process. In saying, “I am”, Jesus is immediately equating himself with God the I AM, or YHWH/Adonai.
Also, by stating that he will be sitting on the rigth hand of God, Jesus was revealing:
•He is God’s right hand (which means this person is acting in God’s place)
•He is totally God and totally man (The Son of Man, which in their thinking would mean a human, or even a servant, a messenger, or one who is humbled (c/f Ezekial 2:1).Luke
Jesus,
in Luke 2:11, is referred to by the angel as “Saviour”, “Messiah (Christ)” and “Lord”. It is wise to read this in context with verses in the Old Testament, such as in Isaiah 9:6.These are powerful statements, to which I refer the reader to the section below on the book of Isaiah.
John
John’s Gospel is a highly personal treatment of the actions, relationships and teachings of Jesus Christ. He was a personal friend of Jesus, a disciple (some say he would have been only around sixteen years old when he joined Jesus’ ministry).John’s Gospel begins with astonishing declarations. John hits the readers between the eyes with a description of the Coming of the Word in John 1.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
There have been many who have believed that this is the key scripture that declares the deity of Jesus Christ and His oneness with the Father.There have been many who also oppose this view, saying that the original Greek translation does not contribute to this view.
A friend of mine recommended a book, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Grand Rapids, MI; IVP; 1994), by Wayne Gruden. As this is a very good summary of the Doctrine of the Trinity, I suggest that the reader reviews this book as well.
The following quote from Wayne Gruden (pp. 233-235) will help lay to rest some of the debates over John 1:1.“Here, Christ is referred to as “the Word”, and John says that he was “with God” and that he “was God”. The Greek text echoes the opening words of Genesis 1:1 (“In the beginning…”) and reminds us that John is talking about something that was true before the world was made. God the Son was always fully God.
“The translation “the Word was God” has been challenged by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who translate it “the Word was a god,” implying that the Word was simply a heavenly being but not fully divine. They justify this translation by pointing to the fact that the definite article (Gk. ho, “the”) does not occur before the Greek word theos (“God”). They say that therefore theos should be translated “a god”. However, their interpretation has been followed by no recognized Greek scholar anywhere, for it is commonly known that the sentence follows a regular rule of Greek grammar, and the absence of the definite article merely indicates that “God” is the predicate rather than the subject of the sentence. (a recent publication by the Jehovah’s Witnesses now acknowledges the relevant grammatical rule, but continues to affirm their position on John 1:1 nonetheless.)
“The inconsistency of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ position can further be seen in their translation of the rest of the chapter. For various other grammatical reasons the word theos also lacks the definite article at other places in this chapter, such as verse 6 (“There was a man sent by God”), verse 12 (“power to become children of God”), verse 13 (“but of God”), and verse 18 (“No one has ever seen God”). If the Jehovah’s Witnesses were consistent with their argument about the absence of the definite article, they would have to translate all of these with the phrase “a god,” but they translate “God” in every case.”
Another part of John’s gospel is treated by Wayne Gruden on p. 235.
“John 20:28 in its context is also a strong proof for the deity of Christ. Thomas had doubted the reports of the other disciples that they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, and he said he would not believe unless he could see the nail prints in Jesus’ hands and place his hand in his wounded side (John 20:25). Then Jesus appeared to the disciples when Thomas was with them. He said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing” (John 20:27). In response to this, we read, “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (john 20:28). Here Thomas calls Jesus “my God.” The narrative shows that both John in writing his gospel and Jesus himself approve of what Thomas has said and encourage everyone who hears about Thomas to believe the same things Thomas did.”
Thomas said “My Lord and my God”. Not “You are like a god!” Not “Oh, my God!” Not, “Aw shucks, Jesus, you look awesome! Thanks, God, for giving Jesus back to us!” (Yes, people have tried to argue these). Thomas, originally the doubter, declares Jesus’ deity, and nothing less.
Gruden points out that (in John’s closing address in John 20:30-31) the reader is encouraged by John, who imitates Thomas’ confession, to believe in the same way as Thomas did. In fact, given the final address gives such power to the declaration of Thomas, the address in turn shows that the entire book is a treatise that argues for the presentation of Jesus Christ’s deity.
It is an example of God’s grace in scripture that the most famous doubter is given the opportunity of such an unequivocal expression of Christ’s deity.
It is interesting that John’s conclusion to his gospel reflects the expression of Thomas. This conclusion also shows that the term, “The Son of God”, used in the context of Thomas’ declaration, is synonymous with declaring Jesus’ deity. So to try and argue that Jesus is not God, just the Son of God, is fatuous.
Let’s jump back a bit in the book of John. There was a challenge in John 10 for Jesus to declare whether he was the Messiah.
22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[c] tell us plainly.”
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33″We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
Jesus knew what the people would do if He declared Himself as Messiah: he would either be forced to become a ruler (and so chase off any and all oppressors, like the Romans), or (the most likely result) they would all kill Him!
His answer placed the perceptions of men back on themselves; basically if they had to stone Him, then surely they also had to stone themselves!
The key focus here is on the point that Jesus said “I am God’s son”. Jesus neatly pointed that, in the Jewish trad
ition, He is the same as the father (or in some cases, the “forebear”, the founding father: which is why the Jews called themselves “Sons of Abraham”, as they saw themselves as one with Abraham). Check out John 8 on this:
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33They answered him, “We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[c]”
39″Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham's children,” said Jesus, “then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”To the Jews of the time, to call yourself the “Son of” someone is to equate oneself with that person (more so than just mere lineage). Jesus simply (a) applied this understanding to convey who He was and (b) used this understanding to avoid getting bumped off! In John 10, because of their traditions, the Jews perceived others who break these traditions as blasphemers – but they did not realise that their own traditions made them all blasphemers.
And in doing this, Jesus also neatly conveyed the key issue: in the true essence of the Scriptures, He is the same as the Father, for the son is traditionally equated with the father/forebear. He consistently declared Himself as Messiah, the Son of God (which means “equal to God), yet one that is humble, one who obeys the Father and who is knowledgeable of His frailties as a man (and one that is smarter than His enemies).
It also showed that, through Jesus, we too can come to become sons (and daughters) of God. Does this mean we too can become the same as God? Technically yes: we have God dwelling within us through salvation. But to grow in that salvation, to be sons and daughters of God, we too have to be humble, obedient to the Father, full of the knowledge of our human frailties (and also, a lot smarter than our adversaries (c; ).
Jesus had to display this kind of teaching and attitude a lot: a prior incident involving a blind man healed on the Sabbath placed Jesus in a position where he wanted to deal directly with the hypocrisy of the time. In John 9, Jesus finds the now-healed man, who has been recently thrown out of the synagogue.
35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
36″Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”
37Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”
38Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
39Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”
40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”
41Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
The key point in this is more than the blindness of the Pharisees: it is the sight of the blind man! Not his physical sight, but the spiritual insight that let him see that Jesus is Lord (Kyrios). This insight led the man to WORSHIP Jesus. This man, distraught from being kicked out of the synagogue, afraid of being identified as a heretic and a blasphemer, suddenly declares, IN FRONT OF PHARISEES that Jesus is capable of worship (the same worship God alone demands from us).Please note that the term used in this scripture for “Lord” is the same word, “Kyrios”, used in the Epistles. This term is of vital importance in understanding who Jesus was then and is today. This will be covered in the section introducing the Epistles of Paul, which is immediately after this section.
That same insight comes to those who believe in Christ’s deity and accept that God is triune: the Father, the Son who is worshipped in the same manner as the Father and the Holy Spirit, who comes inside us and is in fact God inside us, making us complete.
There is the ultimate declaration of Christ’s deity in John 8. I waited until the end of this section to include this, even though this really sets the scene for what happened in chapters 9-10, and on to Jesus’ crucifixion.Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57″You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.Jesus used the present person to declare that he came before Abraham. But this also means;
•Jesus is the same God who declared Himself to Moses in the burning bush in Exodus 3:14
•Jesus was probably the voice of the burning bush.
This means only one thing: that Jesus is one with God and that the Trinity is real. There is no alternative interpretation that makes any rational, scripture contextual sense.The Trinity Doctrine in the Epistles of Paul
I have been interested to discover a number of interesting things lately about the Scriptures. The most powerful things are:
•The Apostle Paul actually addressed his letters, the epistles attributed to his own hand, in a manner that equated Jesus with God, in order to communicate this point to the intended readers;
•Paul also used as a title for Jesus' lordship the word “Kyrios”: this was a powerful declaration to any Greek speaking believer of Jesus' equality with God; and
•Paul used solid arguments to build a logical picture that no-one could argue against, using contemporary methods of philosophical argument to draw to necessary conclusions.
I would like to introduce this concept by taking three examples from some of Paul's epistles. Later on, I would like to introduce the Trinity within Paul's epistles in more detail.Paul’s opening remarks in the letters to the Corinthians, to the Romans and to Timothy
When Paul wrote his opening remarks in 1 Corinthians 1:3, in Romans 1:7, and 1 Timothy 1:2, these had particular significance for the reader. They were designed to have a particular impact; indeed, they are a declaration of Paul's intention that in everything, Christ is paramount to our faith and the only way to salvation.
I have met people who have argued that these (and other similar addresses) are an argument against the Trinity. They argue that Paul distinguished between God the Father and Jesus: this means God is the Father, while Jesus, the Son, is distinct and takes a lesser role. They interpret Paul as meaning that, while Jesus is the Saviour and Lord, the key figure the apostle is writing about is the Father who is the
Most High God; and that Jesus simply introduces us to God (but is not God himself)
This is not true. In fact, it is the opposite. Paul is making a clear argument for equating Jesus with the Father, pointing to distinct persons, but One God. The focus of these epistles is on Jesus Christ as being one with the Father, not the “lesser introducer to the Father”.
Let's look at those scriptures:
I Corinthians 1:3
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:7
To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Each verse is a declaration based on the Greek and Roman traditional method of corresponding in an official letter: a method that, in the pagan worlds of these cultures, would always start with a call upon their deities. Paul is deliberately countering this within the minds of his readers. He is using the same declaration method – which, in the minds of his readers, declares Jesus as a deity!!
OK – so is Paul “deifying” Christ, but separating him from God in this statement? Some might say, “C'mon, Matt! That is stupid. This means that Jesus is being made into his own god, just like the pagan deities. Paul would never do that!”
The answer is this; Paul is not just deifying Christ, he is making Him equal to the Father in this statement. You see, where in English this translates as “Lord”, Paul refers to Jesus as “Kyrios” in the Greek. This is a very powerful statement, which I will now cover in detail from the Letter to the Romans.
Romans
What comes next will be a shock to those who doubt the Trinity Doctrine, (which is really doubt over Jesus’ deity). Look at Romans 10:9-
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
I believe we should take this scripture in context with the practices and culture of Christians during the time of Paul. The statement in v.9 is believed to be the one made by new believers at baptism. This statement alone would rock any Greek speaking Jewish scholars of the time: they would hear or read the statements of Christians declaring that ‘Jesus is Kyrios” at their baptism.
It is exactly the same word used in the Septuagint, the Greek version of what today is the Old Testament, to interpret the Name of God, YHVH, or Yahweh (or, if spoken by the Jewish reader, the term would be “Adonai”).
Hear me in this folks: This statement means that the earliest Greek speaking believers were declaring that Jesus is God at their baptism declarations!
This statement also means that Paul is saying the same thing at the start of his letters: he is declaring Jesus is deity, and that deity is the same as God our Father – yet somehow separate.
Romans also shows another amazing comparison: The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is regarded as synonymous. It is in Romans 8: 9-11:
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
So God’s Spirit and Christ’s Spirit is the same! This is interesting for two reasons:
•The Holy Spirit is one with the Father and the Son
•The Holy Spirit is active, controlling us, if we let him (emphasising that the Spirit has a will, therefore has a personality)
There are those who believe that the Holy Spirit is a “force” or an “essence of God”. What this scripture shows is that He is a person, with divine will, who operates as part of God and part of Christ. This forms a key element of the Trinity Doctrine: the Holy Spirit is revealed as a person in his own right, a part of God the Father and a part of God the Son at the same time.
I need to point out one more key scripture to you. Romans 9:5 is one of several that clearly expresses Christ’s deity and a key scripture on the Trinity Doctrine:
1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen
Is this an out-and-out, 100% clear statement – that Jesus is God? Most translators would say yes.
But to give this a balanced viewpoint, could this be anything else to this scripture? Well, those who do not believe in the Trinity point to possible alternative translations which separate the mentioning of Christ and a statement of praise to God. OK, so maybe this is not so much 100% clear!
But it is an interesting prospect, in context with other scriptures. Given that we will be later covering Titus 2.15, and the context with “Jesus is Kyrios” in Romans 10:9, I suspect that the translation that we have is completely accurate!
My next entry will cover the two letters to the Church in Corinth, that is, 1 & 2 Corinthians.1 & 2 Corinthians
I was challenged by my friend, who challenges the Trinity Doctrine, to seek the Scriptures in Corinthians. He pointed to several scriptures, including 1 Corinthians 1:3, covered in my introduction to Paul’s epistles. As we now know, this verse is truly a declaration of Christ’s deity, designed by Paul to quell any doubt in the minds of the readers of the day regarding this matter.
I suggest that the letters of 1 & 2 Corinthians are in fact clear, “didactic” (i.e. instructive, reasoned structure) arguments for the deity of Christ and for sound doctrine in the Church based on this assertion.
My friend challenged me with 1 Corinthians 3:22-23 –
22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
His challenge to me was that this scripture declares that Jesus is subservient to God the Father. Thus the Trinity Doctrine is not correct, as the doctrine asserts that Jesus is the same as the Father, both of equal status.Interesting argument and I admit, very tempting. It basically states that either Jesus is equal to God the Father or He is not God. The argument also presumes that the Trinity Doctrine is based on equality between Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
This argument is however based on several false premises:
•That there is no subordination of roles in the Trinity (in fact, there is subordination)
•That the Father does not have “fatherly” direction and authority over the Son (He does)
•That you cannot have equality when you have subservience (not true)
•That this scripture is an exception to the context of Jesus as ‘Kyrios”Remember, Jesus came as the perfect example, the “new Adam”. He came as a perfect, willing sacrifice and an example to us of obedience to the Father. None of this
means that he is “unequal”: rather that he chose to serve the Father (I refer back to the discussion on Romans and the upcoming one on Philippians). If you have a choice, an act of will, to serve another, it is not the same as being declared “inferior” (indeed, scripture would encourage us to the contrary, that those who humble themselves will be lifted up – just as in Philippians 2 :5b-11). To read into this that this means Jesus is not equal to God is saying a lot more than what this scripture tells us.To also say that 1 Corinthians 3:22-23 denotes that Jesus is not God is to ignore the other scriptures in 1 Corinthians that show Jesus as Lord, or “Kyrios” (the Greek word used in the Septuagint for “YHWH”, our “Adonai”).
Think about each of us in terms of “Spirit, Soul and Body” (1 Thessalonians 5:23) for a moment. Is our spirit in a hierarchy over the body? After all, our spirit, we are told in scripture, continues on after death, so surely it is superior to the mortal body? Or are our spirits, or souls our bodies all equal to each other? These elements are all “equally you”, are they not?
This is not an easy question to answer, but it does move our thinking towards a triune figure that is easier to conceive intellectually than the Holy Trinity. It also shows that just maybe, aspects of ourselves can be in a hierarchy (spirit, then soul, then body) while still being “equally you”. We are reflections of our Creator God: and we are triune beings. If this is acceptable to our thinking, then so is the thinking that 1 Corinthians 3:22-23 is referring to a Holy Trinity.I refer you back to Wayne Gruden, Systematic Theology; p. 249, as a resource on this aspect of teaching.
Philippians
The best scripture that shows this is from Philippians :5b-11:
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
This is an incredible scripture. To say that someone is in nature God is to equate this person with God. We are not in nature God: we are adopted into God’s family, this is true. This only happens when we turn away from our sins and away from our earthly, sinful nature. Jesus, however, IS in nature God.
Some translators have pointed out that this scripture can be interpreted as “in the form of God”, rather than “in very nature God”. From this, some have raised the argument that this scripture does not raise Jesus’ status beyond us, who are created in God’s image.
Bad argument, however. It immediately forgets what we covered in Romans 8:9-11, 9:5 and 10:11 regarding Jesus’ nature and character in terms of how these scriptures show his deity.
Titus
The book of Titus has an interesting reference to the actual deity of Christ. Chapter 2:13 refers to the Lord Jesus in a particular way:
13 While we wait for the appearing of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness…
This is an unequivocal expression of Christ’s deity and an equation with God Himself. What is even more remarkable is that the original Greek translation is even more explicit, referring to “Jesus Christ, the God and Saviour of us all.”
So the conclusion of the Epistles is this:
•Paul argued throughout his epistles in a logical manner, which included a logical argument about Jesus’ deity;
•The original context of baptism included a declaration that “Jesus is Kyrios”, which all Greek speaking Jews and believers would understand in its context as meaning YHWH, or Adonai;
•In arguing about the deity of Christ, we have to address the issue of the deity of the Holy Spirit as well;
•The terms “Spirit of Christ” and the “Spirit of God” are synonymous;
•The original Greek shows that the cultural understanding was of Jesus and the Father as one.The Old Testament
I know a highly learned man by the name of Dr. Simon Smelt. He is an economist and has a strong theological knowledge. I thought I would introduce this section with a quote from a document he wrote as an answer to questions regarding the Trinity that were raised in a discussion within my church fellowship.
In the OT, the central declaration of God for Judaism is Dt 6:4-5:
Hear, O Israel: The Lord [Jehovah] our God [elohiym -plural], the Lord is one [echad].
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength.”So, in this central statement the term Jehovah is (as elsewhere) attached to the plural term for God. The word echad translated as “one” means unified – not unique or sole. Elsewhere echad is employed to refer to Israel being of one heart or one mind, i.e. a plurality that is unified. So Dt 6:4-5 makes clear the plural but unified nature of the God who we are to love.
There are several interesting parts to this exegesis:
•The Lord is YHWH (Adonai)
•The reference to God is translated from the Hebrew word, “Elohiym”, which is a plural
•The Lord is oneRemember the earlier reference to the Septuagint? Here is an example of reference to the word, “Lord”, translated into English from the Hebrew YHWH. The Septuagint translates this word as “Kyrios”, which later becomes the term for used for describing Jesus as “Lord”.
Freaky stuff! This means the Bible specifically states the Lord our God, who exists as a plural, is ONE. Yes, it is the scripture that everyone who is challenged about whether the Trinity is true should turn to. It is a central, key scripture that declares God is at the same time a plurality (the Trinity) and that He is at the same time one God!
Isaiah
The Book of Isaiah is one of the most clear of Jesus’ position as an aspect of the One God. Note the following scriptures from Isaiah:
9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.43:11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.45:21 Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD ?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.There is no saviour apart from the One God. So how can Jesus be our saviour? The answer is also in Isaiah:
19:20 It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.
So, does Isaiah set himself up to fail in his writing? Did he say, ‘God alone is saviour”, then say, “God will send us a saviour”? Is this a contradiction?I doubt the “contradiction” suggestion. Rather, I think Isaiah experienced a revelation from God that simply means this:
•The Lord our God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4)
•He is the Saviour, and that there is no other
•He is sending a
saviour to us
•The Saviour who is sent will be called, “Mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6): thus he will be ONE WITH GODJesus, in Luke 2:11, is referred to by the angel as “Saviour”, “Messiah (Christ)” and “Lord”. To the reader, familiar with the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6, would understand that Jesus is being deified by the angel’s declaration.
The conclusion we draw from the Book of Isaiah is very clear: either Jesus is the Messiah and is fully God, or he is neither Messiah nor God.
Conclusion
It is clear from the scriptures that the earliest Christians considered Jesus Christ to be the same as God the Father, yet somehow separate. The Holy Spirit is also seen as a person, not a “thing” or an “entity”. And when the subject of the Holy Spirit came up in the Epistles, the designation of the Spirit as “the Spirit of God” or “the Spirit of Christ” is always seen as synonymous (Romans 8:9-11).
These are the reasons that the term “Holy Trinity” does not turn up in the scriptures:
•The use of synonyms for depicting different concepts of the One God (e.g. “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ”) meant the writers were always talking about God, but showing more and more about his infinite capacity for greater revelation about himself.
•The equating of the sons to the fathers meant the connection of the Father and the Son was a given.
•The use of “Kyrios” showing clearly that at baptism, which is when people are baptised in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, meant that Jesus was given the same status as YHWH, or Adonai.It is clear from the scriptures, when they are taken in context with each other, with the original language and with the cultural and religious understanding of the time, that the writers intended to show a great God who is one, yet depicted in three persons.
Next time that you look in the mirror, think on this: you too are a triune being. You are spirit, soul and body, according to 1 Thessalonians 5:23. That is simple to grasp. Then realise that you too are created in the image of almighty God! He decided to raise a triune being as a reflection of his own glory and essence!
That essence was almost lost when humanity fell from grace. Now, through Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, we too can find completeness in us by turning to God. We can truly discover our “triune self”, by inviting the one element that we need to draw these triune elements of ourselves into the destiny God intended:
The love that comes through the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our hearts.
This is the only way to unity with God, and wholeness within ourselves, and have our spirits, souls and bodies all connected with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Now, that is a journey I would love you to join me on.
Hi mattyjay.
Welcome to the Heaven Net forums.
I am sure you will get some replies soon enough.
I hope you stick around to answer them.
Thx
oh okay sorry slasher i thought u were trying to use that verse to prove what u believe, sorry lol i just read your post, maybe i should take my own advice and read everything before i post something hahaha… my bad
Quote (wind_slasher52 @ Aug. 30 2006,02:32) hi nick , im not a trinitarian.i believed in the oneness of God, and im not a trinitarian. the reason why i post that its because i want to show the history of trinity, and for me its really unbiblical.:)
Hi WS,
Indeed God is one
and God has a Son
with whom He became one
and He wants us to be one
in the Son in Him.Hi MJ and welcome,
You say trinity is a biblical doctrine.
I have searched the bible for 30years cover to cover and I have not yet found it in the mouth of God through
Jesus Christ
The Prophets
or The Apostles and disciples?
So what have I missed?Can you show me where God has taught us this.
Or do we have to read between the lines?Hi MJ,
You say
“Next time that you look in the mirror, think on this: you too are a triune being. You are spirit, soul and body, “
If the anoalogy is correct thenThe Father is just Soul
Jesus is just Body
and the Spirit is SpiritIs this what you mean?
That means I am like none of them.
Hi MJ,
You say
“To the Jews of the time, to call yourself the “Son of” someone is to equate oneself with that person”Strange. The bible is full of fathers and sons. Are you saying they are actually not sons of their fathers but some sort of equal being with their Father? Does the ordinary meaning of father and son not apply in the bible, because Jesus said he is the Son of God and I think we should believe him?
Eph 3
” 14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named”
Our own families draw their name from the family of God and I for one will not deny that Jesus truly is the Son of God. Of course preconceived ideas of trinity cannot allow this concept but since salvation is through the Son we should not deny it but grasp it and cast away doctrines that will not fit with it don't you?
Yes if we are part spirit, soul, and body then is God part Father, son, and Holy Spirit?
The Trinity says that each one is fully (100%) God, yet 3 persons one God.
But I am one person, 3 parts. A simplistic statement, but for the sake of showing the difference between a person and the Holy Trinity.
Of course to say that God is like a created thing is to start making God into an image made by human hands or by the human mind.
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.What we can safely say about God is revealed in scripture. We can teach, rebuke, correct, and encourage using scripture.
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