The Trinity Doctrine

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Elidad @ Aug. 24 2006,00:13)

Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 23 2006,15:07) The Scripture plainly cxalls Jesus God: Titus 2:13 NNAS looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,” Hi Epistemaniac,   Let's take a look at your statement, “The Scripture plainly calls Jesus God” and pick up on just one of your 'proof' texts, Titus 2:13.   And let's deal with them one at a time. Then if we can get some agreement on what that text really means, then we can move on and have a look at another one of your alleged 'clear' proof texts, which are ALL misunderstood and misapplied. Firstly, if we are going to honestly examine Scripture to arrive at the meaning the Holy Spirit intended, then we need to consider a number of other translations, so that we can be sure we are picking up the right thread. So let's do this; but unfortunately, such will make this a seemingly long post, but I notice that you don't have any aversion to submitting 'long' posts, so please bear with me. Below is a comparison of this text from numerous versions (using the e-Sword electronic Bible for this purpose – available here: http://www.e-sword.net) Abbreviation used for each version can be obtained from the WEB page.) Tit 2:13 (ALT)  waiting for the blessed hope [or, confident expectation] and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (ASV)  looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (BBE)  Looking for the glad hope, the revelation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ; (CEV)  We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. (Darby)  awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ; (DRB)  Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (EMTV)  looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (GB)  Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, (GNB)  as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear. (GW)  At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. (HCSB)  while we wait for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. (HNV)  looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Yeshua the Messiah; (ISV)  as we wait for the blessed hope and the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. (KJV)  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (KJV+)  Looking for4327 that blessed3107 hope,1680 and2532 the3588 glorious1391 appearing2015 of the3588 great3173 God2316 and2532 our2257 Savior4990 Jesus2424 Christ;5547 (Strong's Numbers included) (KJVA)  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (KJVR)  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; (LITV)  looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (MKJV)  looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (MSG)  and is whetting our appetites for the glorious day when our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, appears. (WEB)  looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ; (Webster)  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Savior Jesus Christ; (WNT)  in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope–the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ; (YLT)  waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, It will be noted that each translation consistently speaks of “great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”. Your view of this is, that it is saying “great God” and “Saviour” are one and the same, so Christ is both.  Is this the way Titus understood these words? I think not if you go back and read Titus 1:4. This verse clearly indentifies God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ as two separate entities. If it doesn't, then Christ must be His own father. Such notion is hardly worth commenting upon. But when we get to Titus 2:13 you want to join them together and make them one and the same? Surely common sense reading tells us that “the great God” is one entity and the Saviour Jesus Christ; His beloved son, is another entity. The 'great God' being the 'Father' and 'Jesus Christ' being the 'Son', both individuals in their own right, but the Son acting with the full authority and power of His Father. The example of Joseph with Pharoah in Egypt pre-figures this Father and His Son relationship. As the Father's Agent or representative, Christ fully  acts in His Father's capacity and carries with Him associated titles. The same as when I worked for a very large Company. I was vested with the name and authority of the Company when I acted in my Company given capacity. When I attended meetings they asked if the Company was inattendance. As the Companies agent or representative, I was able to answer 'Yes'. I carried the Company's name, and all I said and did at such meetings was attributed to the Company If we fail to understand the capacity in which the Son of God operates, then we will unwittingly misunderstand references like Titus 2:13 and many of the others that you have referred to. Should you fail to see that there is a another very legitimate way of looking at the references you mention, starting with Titus 2:13, then there will be no point in us discussing this further. Can you see the possibilities? Over to you. Elidad

lol… Eli… there is no need to quote all those verses for me in various translations…. I have access to them myself….. I have esword fully loaded (2 gigs in that directory), as well as Libronix, Quickverse, Action Bible, WORDsearch, PC Study Bible 4, most all the AGES cd's, Online Bible, Swordsearcher, and gigs of theological resources at my disposal…..

so lets have a look at these verses Eli, and see if we can get some agreement on what the text really means, ie, that Jesus is God. After you get that one simple point maybe we can move on and look at the other scriptures that call Jesus God. As it is, you seem to be misunderstanding and misapplying the verses by twisting them to say what your preconcieved notions say they MUST say, because they do not agree with your anti trinitarian biases.

But thanks for posting them anyway… they pro
ve exactly what I said they prove, that Jesus is God. Thanks for taking the time to post them so as to further reinforce my point. Well done.

But wait… now you presume to be a mind reader, you think you can go beyond what the text itself says, and then to presume to tell me what Titus “really meant”… roflol!!!! So much for sticking to the text itself ehhh?

But since you have esword, you might want to check out some of the commentaries on this verse… but no.. wait… I will get them for you….

Barnes says “Of the great God – There can be little doubt, if any, that by “the great God” here, the apostle referred to the Lord Jesus”

Gill “not two divine persons, only one, are here intended; for the word: rendered “appearing”, is never used of God the Father, only of the second person; and the propositive article is not set before the word “Saviour”, as it would, if two distinct persons were designed; and the copulative “and” is exegetical, and may he rendered thus, “and the glorious appearing of the great God, even our Saviour Jesus Christ”; who, in the next verse, is said to give himself for the redemption of his people: so that here is a very illustrious proof of the true and proper deity of Christ,”

Jamison Faucett and Brown “There is but one Greek article to “God” and “Saviour,” which shows that both are predicated of one and the same Being. “Of Him who is at once the great God and our Saviour.” Also (2) “appearing” (epiphaneia) is never by Paul predicated of God the Father (Joh_1:18; 1Ti_6:16), or even of “His glory” (as ALFORD explains it): it is invariably applied to CHRIST'S coming, to which (at His first advent, compare 2Ti_1:10) the kindred verb “appeared” (epephanee), Tit_2:11, refers (1Ti_6:14; 2Ti_4:1, 2Ti_4:8). Also (3) in the context (Tit_2:14) there is no reference to the Father, but to Christ alone; and here there is no occasion for reference to the Father in the exigencies of the context. Also (4) the expression “great God,” as applied to Christ, is in accordance with the context, which refers to the glory of His appearing; just as “the true God” is predicated of Christ, 1Jo_5:20. The phrase occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, but often in the Old Testament. Deu_7:21; Deu_10:17, predicated of Jehovah, who, as their manifested Lord, led the Israelites through the wilderness, doubtless the Second Person in the Trinity. Believers now look for the manifestation of His glory, inasmuch as they shall share in it. Even the Socinian explanation, making “the great God” to be the Father, “our Saviour,” the Son, places God and Christ on an equal relation to “the glory” of the future appearing: a fact incompatible with the notion that Christ is not divine; indeed it would be blasphemy so to couple any mere created being with God.”

Poole “And the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; and in order thereunto, looking for the coming of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ, to the last judgment. The same person is here meant by the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

1. It is he whom God hath appointed to be the judge of the quick and dead.

2. ’ epifaneia, by us translated appearing, is attributed only to the Second Person in the Blessed Trinity, 2Th_2:8 1Ti_6:14 2Ti_4:1,8. From this text the Divine nature of Christ is irrefragably concluded; he is not only called God, but megav yeov, the great God, which cannot be understood of a made God.”

Robertson's Word Pictures “Of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ (tou megalou theou kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou). This is the necessary meaning of the one article with theou and sōtēros just as in 2Pe_1:1, 2Pe_1:11. See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786. Westcott and Hort read Christou Iēsou.”

Clarke “This clause, literally translated, is as follows: And the appearing of the glory of the great God, even our Savior Jesus Christ.”

Geneva “Christ is here most plainly called that mighty God, and his appearance and coming is called by the figure of speech metonymy, our hope.”

Calvin “The orthodox teachers of the Church, for the purpose of shutting out this slander, eagerly contended that both are affirmed of Christ. But the Arians may be refuted in a few words and by solid argument; for Paul, having spoken of the revelation of the glory of “the great God,”immediately added “Christ,” in order to inform us, that that revelation of glory will be in his person; as if he had said that, when Christ shall appear, the greatness of the divine glory shall then be revealed to us.”

And elsewhere, that is, other then esword's resources “Christians eagerly wait for “the blessed hope,” “the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” He is designated both as “Savior” and “our great God” (elsewhere in the New Testament Jesus is specifically designated as God in John 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9.5; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1).
Elwell, W. A. (1996, c1989). Evangelical Commentary on the Bible .

“In Judaism, the ultimate revelation or “appearing” of God would signal the end of the present age and the beginning of the new one (cf. 2:12). Diaspora Judaism commonly called God “the great God” and saw him as a “savior” (in Greek religion, the latter term often meant deliverer or benefactor). According to the most likely reading of the grammar here, Paul applies this divine title to Jesus.
Keener, C. S. (1997, c1993). The IVP Bible background commentary : New Testament (Tit 2:13). Downers Grove: InterVarsity.

“God and Savior. A clear reference to the deity of Jesus. Cf. 2 Pet. 1:1.” MacArthur, J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (Tit 2:13). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

“The great God and our Saviour (or even our Saviour) Jesus Christ; for they are not two subjects, but one only, as appears by the single article, tou megalou Theou kai Soµteµros, not kai tou Soµteµros, and so is kai rendered 1 Co. 15:24, When he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; toµ Theoµ kai Patri. Christ then is the great God, not figuratively, as magistrates and others are sometimes called gods, or as appearing and acting in the name of God, but properly and absolutely, the true God (1 Jn. 5:20), the mighty God (Isa. 9:6), who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, Phil. 2:6.
Henry, M. (1996, c1991). Matthew Henry's commentary : On the whole Bible (the complete and unabridged edition.) (Tit 2:11). Peabody: Hendrickson.

It is significant here that Paul speaks of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, for the linking of God and Jesus Christ in the same expression suggests that Paul is convinced of the deity of Jesus, a thought which is in harmony with the most probable understanding of Rom. 9:5.”
Carson, D., & Guthrie, D. (1997, c1994). New Bible Commentary : 21st century edition (4th ed.) (Tit 2:11). Downers Grove: InterVarsity.

The evidence for my position is absolutely overwhelming… only self imposed ignorance can fail to see this…..

So… did you learn anything Eli…? Should you fail to see that there is another very legitimate way of looking at the verses I mention, starting with Titus 2:13, then there will be no point in us discussing this further. What say you? can you get beyond your presuppositions abgout what the Bible MUSt say instead of what it actually DOES say? We'll see ehhh? Over to you…

blessings

[epistemaniac]

Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 23 2006,21:27)

Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 23 2006,18:07) The Scripture plainly cxalls Jesus God: Titus 2:13 NNAS looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,” This one verse alone (and that is all it takes) proves conclusively, once and for all, Jesus is God. But wait.. here is another one…. 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:” and yet another…. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” 1 John 5:20: Read it carefully, the verse in 19 says we are the children of God, in 20 it refers to him who is true which is talking about God, and we are in him who is true, so we are in God, and even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life, it only makes sense that its talking about God since in the previous sentences it uses him and his to refer to God himself, why would it suddenly switch to Jesus when the previous sentences are talking about knowing the true one, God. To further back up this point go to Jeremiah 10:10, John 17:3 and John 8:42. Titus 2:13: take your a copy of greek scriptures and look at greek wording of “Savior” in luke 2:11, john 4:42, and Ephesians 5:23 is different than that of the one in Titus 2:13, OBVIOUSLY this means the translation is not simply just savior but it could be, as the NWT put it, “and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus.”… look at other translations too such as this one KJV 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; once again you have to look at the facts here, man is imperfect and can make mistakes… lol as for the one in 2 Peter 1:1 and titus…. i can easily say “i receive money from my wonderful mom and great dad” … lol yeah corny sentence but does that make my mom and dad the same thing? lol you have to think logically here…. these are TRANSLATIONS… THINK!!!!

ohh… so I can't trust “translations …. I have to trust what YOU say ….. so much for sticking to the text ehhh lol!!!! the Greek text is exactly what proves my point cam….. see my last post to Eli for more on this…

as far as the rest of your post, its simply nonsense, dancing around the subject just like Nick has done, for he too refuses to take the Scriptures for exactly what they say, instead he has to resort to the word “trintiy” doesn't appear in the Bible nonsense…… and to trying to theologize himself out from under the plain meaning of the text….

Here is 1 Jn 5:20 for you… again… 1Jo 5:20 ESV+ And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”

“This is the true God Though the Arians have attempted to elude this passage, and some agree with them at this day, yet we have here a remarkable testimony to the divinity of Christ. The Arians apply this passage to the Father, as though the Apostle should again repeat that he is the true God. But nothingcould be more frigid than such a repetition. It has already twice testified that the true God is he who has been made known to us in Christ, why should he again add, This is the true God? It applies, indeed, most suitably to Christ; for after having taught us that Christ is the guide by whose hand we are led to God, he now, by way of amplifying, affirms that Christ is that God, lest we shouldthink that we are to seek further; and he confirms this view by what is added, and eternal life. It is doubtless the same that is spoken of, as being the true God and eternal life. I pass by this, that the relative οὗτος usually refers to the last person. Isay, then, that Christ is properly called eternal life; and that this mode of speaking perpetually occurs in John, no one can deny.

The meaning is, that when we have Christ, we enjoy the true and eternal God, for nowhere else is he to be sought; and, secondly, that we become thus partakers of eternal life, because it is offered to us in Christ though hid in the Father. The origin of life is, indeed, the Father; but the fountain from which we are to draw it, is Christ.” (Calvin)

“This is the true God – o There has been much difference of opinion in regard to this important passage; whether it refers to the Lord Jesus Christ, the immediate antecedent, or to a more remote antecedent – referring to God, as such. The question is of importance in its bearing on the doctrine of the divinity of the Saviour; for if it refers to him, it furnishes an unequivocal declaration that he is divine. The question is, whether John “meant” that it should be referred to him? Without going into an extended examination of the passage, the following considerations seem to me to make it morally certain that by the phrase “this is the true God,” etc., he did refer to the Lord Jesus Christ.
(1) the grammatical construction favors it. Christ is the immediate antecedent of the pronoun “this” – οὗτος houtos. This would be regarded as the obvious and certain construction so far as the grammar is concerned, unless there were something in the thing affirmed which led us to seek some more remote and less obvious antecedent. No doubt would have been ever entertained on this point, if it had not been for the reluctance to admit that the Lord Jesus is the true God. If the assertion had been that “this is the true Messiah;” or that “this is the Son of God;” or that “this is he who was born of the Virgin Mary,” there would have been no difficulty in the construction. I admit that his argument is not absolutely decisive; for cases do occur where a pronoun refers, not to the immediate antecedent, but to one more remote; but cases of that kind depend on the ground of necessity, and can be applied only when it would be a clear violation of the sense of the author to refer it to the immediate antecedent.
(2) this construction seems to be demanded by the adjunct which John has assigned to the phrase “the true God” – “eternal life.” This is an expression which John would be likely to apply to the Lord Jesus, considered as “life,” and the “source of life,” and not to God as such. “How familiar is this language with John, as applied to Christ! “In him (i. e. Christ) was life, and the life was the light of people – giving life to the world – the bread of life – my words are spirit and life – I am the way, and the truth, and the life. This life (Christ) was manifested, and we have “seen it,” and do testify to you, and declare the eternal life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us,” 1Jo_1:2.” – Prof. Stuart’s Letters to Dr. Channing, p. 83. There is no instance in the writings of John, in which the appellation life, and “eternal” life is bestowed upon the Father, to designate him as the author of spiritual and eternal life; and as this occurs so frequently in John’s writings as applied to Christ, the laws of exegesis require that both the phrase “the true God,” and “eternal life,” should be applied to h
im.
(3) if it refers to God as such, or to the word “true” – τὸν ἀληθινόν (Θεὸν) ton alēthinon (Theon) it would be mere tautology, or a mere truism. The rendering would then be, “That we may know the true God, and we are in the true God: this is the true God, and eternal life.” Can we believe that an inspired man would affirm gravely, and with so much solemnity, and as if it were a truth of so much magnitude, that the true God is the true God?
(4) this interpretation accords with what we are sure John would affirm respecting the Lord Jesus Christ. Can there be any doubt that he who said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;” that he who said, “all things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made;” that he who recorded the declaration of the Saviour, “I and my Father are one,” and the declaration of Thomas, “my Lord and my God,” would apply to him the appellation “the true God!”
(5) if John did not mean to affirm this, he has made use of an expression which was liable to be misunderstood, and which, as facts have shown, would be misconstrued by the great portion of those who might read what he had written; and, moreover, an expression that would lead to the very sin against which he endeavors to guard in the next verse – the sin of substituting a creature in the place of God, and rendering to another the honor due to him. The language which he uses is just such as, according to its natural interpretation, would lead people to worship one as the true God who is not the true God, unless the Lord Jesus be divine. For these reasons, it seems to me that the fair interpretation of this passage demands that it should be understood as referring to the Lord Jesus Christ. If so, it is a direct assertion of his divinity, for there could be no higher proof of it than to affirm that he is the true God.” (Barnes)

“This is the true God and eternal life; that is, the Son of God, who is the immediate antecedent to the relative “this”; he is the true God, with his Father and the Spirit, in distinction from all false, fictitious, or nominal deities; and such as are only by office, or in an improper and figurative sense: Christ is truly and really God, as appears from all the perfections of deity, the fulness of the Godhead being in him; from the divine works of creation and providence being ascribed to him; and from the divine worship that is given him; as well as from the names and titles he goes by, and particularly that of Jehovah, which is incommunicable to a creature; and he is called “eternal life”, because it is in him; and he is the giver of it to his people; and that itself will chiefly consist in the enjoyment and vision of him, and in conformity to him.” (Gill)

So I believe it is YOU who needs to read carefully….. can you put aside your presuppositions about what the text MUSt say in order to agree with your a priori anti trinitarian biases? We shall see….

blessings

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2006,21:38)

Hi cam, True but expect further diversion and not listening ears.

exactly Nick… that is what you, Cam, Eli, t8 and all the other anti trinitarians are doing… acting like little kids putting their fingers in their ears so that they do not have to hear the word of God…. you can run Nick… but you cannot hide… the word of God is sharper then any 2 edged sword, dividing even unto your anti Jesus anti God anti Holy Spirit beliefs, showing them forth into the light so that the level of darkness can be seen by all… as someone once said though… the diversions are all coming from you Nick.. you haven;t dealt with the passages at all… you just continue to spout your nonsensical innane questions that do nothing but show your biblical ignorance and willful blindness to the truth…..

you want the truth? you can't handle the truth….

blessings

[epistemaniac]

Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 23 2006,22:01)

oh i know… idont expect anything out of this… personally i feel like ive benefitted more spiritually than i probably have benefitted others in all of this, lol and actually that girl that broke things off of me because her mom and her church convinced her i was lying to her, well ive been sending her things you guys have been saying and just a ton of verses from the bible, well she was at the point where she said she backs up the trinity 100% but she just told me yesterday that she thinks i am right… its funny because i hadnt prayed for her until just the day before yesterday :/ …. so dont worry i dont expect anything from anyone, if they want to follow the ones who cause division, the ones who compromise god's power, his entirety and wholeness and absolute perfectness, then i feel sorry for them and i will continue to pray for them and do the best i can to help spread the good news to all who are willing to take it in…. i am aware that i am responsible for what i teach people… and if i wasnt sure that what i have is 100% truth then i wouldnt be saying right now that i am going to dedicate my life to help others find the truth…

so… how does it feel to be a false teacher….? you know your judgment will be all the greater for leading someone else astray by your false teaching…..

Mat 18:6 ESV but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Jam 3:1 ESV Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.'

blessings

[jmsad07]

Good Day!

I would like to comment with the different perverted translations presented by a Jehovah's Witness member! Those different translations were manufactured by a single-man translator whose sole desire is just to create deception.
Do you not know that some of your presented translations was biasly made by bible trashers,skeptic,and agnostic but perhaps atheist. If you will search for their credibility you will notice that they were rejected by true and reliable theologians and scholars.
My bible was not forgely made by a single person but by a panel or committe of translators to avoid willful perversion of the texts. Could you trust your theologian's credibility? One of the sites in the web said that the Jehovah's Witness used the HOSTILE WITNESS APPROACH or tantamount to SATANIC QOUTING PRACTICE. This is their web. http://www.bible.ca If you will search for the reliability of your belief in the TRINITY, you will flagrantly found that it is wanting and your argument is based on forgery of untrusted or unreliable theologians.

If you want to say that Trinity is of pagan origin, you were decieved by your minister because if you will know how they quote from an 'evolutionist' not in a 'creationist' you will comprehend and understand that they were not just trashing the trinitarians but the entire Christianity. The desperate acts of your denomination prove that they are compromising for the sake of survival due to the unreliable and faulty doctrines.

I would like to say and warn that you must stop the “cut and paste theology” and faulty and unreliable quoting from the bible trashers and skeptic.

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Men have built another tower of Babel of pseudoknowledge about God.
It is unscriptural and speaks another gospel about another trinity God and another Jesus who is not the Son of God.
Is it useful?
2Cor 11 1f
” 1I wish that you would (A)bear with me in a little (B)foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me.
2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I Âbetrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might (D)present you as a pure virgin.

3But I am afraid that, as the (E)serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

4For if one comes and preaches (F)another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a (G)different spirit which you have not received, or a (H)different gospel which you have not accepted, you (I)bear this (J)beautifully.”

[epistemaniac]

Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 24 2006,01:47)

errr i know this is off topic but does anyone have anything that can help me with someone who is just discouraged and is giving up on their faith and really is just turnign their back on god…. like a website or something or just some verses u know…

Joh 6:67-69 ESV So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” (68) Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, (69) and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

1Jo 3:8 ESV Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Act 4:11-12 ESV This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. (12) And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Heb 2:1-4 ESV Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. (2) For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, (3) how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, (4) while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.”

Rom 5:3-11 ESV More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, (4) and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, (5) and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. (6) For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For one will scarcely die for a righteous person–though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die– (8) but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. (10) For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. (11) More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

blessings

[camrezaie]

Quote (jmsad07 @ Aug. 24 2006,04:12)

Good Day! I would like to comment with the different perverted translations presented by a Jehovah's Witness member! Those different translations were manufactured by a single-man translator whose sole desire is just to create deception. Do you not know that some of your presented  translations was biasly made by bible trashers,skeptic,and agnostic but perhaps atheist. If you will search for their credibility you will notice that they were rejected by true and reliable theologians and scholars. My bible was not forgely made by a single person but by a panel or committe of translators to avoid willful perversion of the texts. Could you trust your theologian's credibility? One  of the sites in the web said that the Jehovah's Witness used the HOSTILE WITNESS APPROACH or tantamount to SATANIC QOUTING PRACTICE. This is their web.  www.bible.ca If you will search for the reliability of your belief in the TRINITY, you will flagrantly found that it is wanting and your argument is based on forgery of untrusted or unreliable theologians. If you want to say that Trinity is of pagan origin, you were decieved by your minister because if you will know how they quote from an 'evolutionist' not in a 'creationist' you will comprehend and understand that they were not just trashing the trinitarians but the entire Christianity. The desperate acts of your denomination prove that they are compromising for the sake of survival due to the unreliable and faulty doctrines. I would like to say and warn that you must stop the “cut and paste theology” and faulty and unreliable quoting from the bible trashers and skeptic.

AHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAH!!!!!!!!!!

you liar !!!! LOL… hilarious… there is little truth in that entire post… you are attacking jehovahs witnesses, look at you… its pathetic what kind of person can consider themselves a man of god while attacking a group of others with lies and hateful words… would jesus approve of this? this was a civilized conversation until you joined…. bible.ca is NOT our website LOL… actually its http://www.watchtower.org … get your facts straight…. LOL wow this is the most hilarious thing ive ever seen, it just proves to me even more that i am following the right path when people like you come along and spread lies hahah!

[NickHassan]

Hi and Welcome j,
We love the bible.
We love God and his Son.
For these reasons we have examined trinity theory and found it unbiblical.
That should be enough for men to know and to decide it is not of God surely?

[camrezaie]

LOL… you seek your information in apostate sites… and sites created to SPECIFICALLY attack jehovahs witnesses… created by people who are not following the word of god…. hhaha dont repost if your going to persecute others…. that is not the purpose of this message board…. learn some manners and educate yourself with PROPER sources instead of resorting to lies and false websites… GOOD BYE

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 24 2006,04:22)

Hi E, Men have built another tower of Babel of pseudoknowledge about God. It is unscriptural and speaks another gospel about another trinity God and another Jesus who is not the Son of God. Is it useful? 2Cor 11 1f ” 1I wish that you would (A)bear with me in a little (B)foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. 2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I ©betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might (D)present you as a pure virgin. 3But I am afraid that, as the (E)serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4For if one comes and preaches (F)another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a (G)different spirit which you have not received, or a (H)different gospel which you have not accepted, you (I)bear this (J)beautifully.”

Pro 26:5 ESV Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Pro 10:8 ESV The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin.

Pro 10:14 ESV The wise lay up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool brings ruin near.

Pro 12:15 ESV The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.

Pro 12:17 ESV Whoever speaks the truth gives honest evidence, but a false witness utters deceit.

Pro 14:7-8 ESV Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge. (8) The wisdom of the prudent is to discern his way, but the folly of fools is deceiving.

Pro 18:2 ESV A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

[camrezaie]

take your own advice

“I would like to say and warn that you must stop the “cut and paste theology” and faulty and unreliable quoting from the bible trashers and skeptic.”

everything you said in your post was 100% lies… good luck…. i feel sorry for people like you… im going to stay away from people like you and the beliefs that they are trying to teach…. you just told this board a stack of lies why good luck trying to get people to side with you…

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Call me a fool if you must
but perhaps it is better to be a fool
than to be wise in your own eyes?

[epistemaniac]

as an aside… its kind of interesting to feel somewhat like Athanasius who was contra mundum in regard to the Trinity….. and to point out that no matter how much people complain about Constatine supposedly inventing the Trinity… it was Constintine I who banished Athanasius for TEACHING THE TRINITY!!

“In about 319, when Athanasius was a deacon, a presbyter named Arius began teaching that there was a time before God the Father begot Jesus when the latter did not exist. Athanasius accompanied Alexander to the First Council of Nicaea in 325, which council produced the Nicene Creed and anathematized Arius and his followers. On May 9, 328, he succeeded Alexander as bishop of Alexandria. As a result of rises and falls in Arianism's influence after the First Council of Nicaea, he was banished from Alexandria to Tyre by Emperor Constantine I only to be later restored after the death of Constantine I by his son Constantine II. Athanasius was restored on at least five separate occasions, perhaps as many as seven. This gave rise to the expression “Athanasius contra mundum” or “Athanasius against the world”.

but hey.. when you have the truth, it empowers you to speak it forth no matter how many people persecute you for the having the truth and daring to speak it forth…

blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Would it not be better if you had the Word of God to back you in your teachings lest they be found to be mere dangerous speculations?

[epistemaniac]

well Nick it is important to call a spade a spade…. and I can't be said to really care about you if I let you go on believing lies about something so important as the nature and doctrine of God… so… in the hope that the word of God breaks through your blindness, I speak the truth to you…. its up to you to not grieve the Holy Spirit by going on believing the lies after having been told the truth…. your judgment will be all the greater for having been told the truth and then having rejected it…. so I hope the best for you Nick, for all the antitrinitarians here…. and that is that you would all come to honor Christ Jesus as God, for that is who He claimed to be, and that is clearly what the rest of the writers of the NT, in one degree or other, all believed to be true about Him as well…. it saddens me to see you guys insult the majesty of Christ the way you do…. so, today is the day… do not harden your hearts…. turn from your sinful thoughts while it is still called today….. for after death comes the judgment… it will be too late for you then…..

blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
What we have heard is written in the scriptures. Ought we not pay more attention to these matters than theories about God that are not written?

“Heb 2:1-4 ESV Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard,”

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 24 2006,04:53)

Hi E, Would it not be better if you had the Word of God to back you in your teachings lest they be found to be mere dangerous speculations?

The Scripture plainly calls Jesus God:

Titus 2:13 NNAS looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,”

This one verse alone (and that is all it takes) proves conclusively, once and for all, Jesus is God. But wait.. here is another one….

2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:”

and yet another….
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”

I have the word of God Nick, what do you have…? More innane questions? More attempts to obsfuscate? More attepts to dodge the clear teaching of Scripture?

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
The cornerstone of faith is the Son of God.
Yet you do not believe God ever had a son.
So in what way can you help us learn?

“Act 4:11-12 ESV This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. “

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
You need to know the Son of God.
Salvation is through the Son.
Rom 5.10)
“For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. (11) More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

[Author]

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