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Hi E,
So starting from what we agree on and using you beloved LOGIC.We agree Jesus is THE SON OF GOD
Now you say also that
Jesus is GOD
There are several possible possibilities you can derive from combining these positions.
The first always upsets you so I will just mention and discard it-Jesus is his OWN FATHER.
Moving on then we could say
God is the FATHER OF GOD.
but that would be saying there are TWO GODS and you could not accept that.
We could say that
God is the SON OF GOD
But a son is defined by having a father
We could even say
THE SON is the father of GOD
but I am sure you would not accept that either.
Or there are TWO GODS, father and son.
No POLYTHEISM.
We could say God has TWO PARTS called Father and Son
But that means one is not a father and the other not a son.
You will have to show us what you mean but please keep it simple and from the bible.
Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 23 2006,18:07) The Scripture plainly cxalls Jesus God: Titus 2:13 NNAS looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,”
This one verse alone (and that is all it takes) proves conclusively, once and for all, Jesus is God. But wait.. here is another one….
2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:”and yet another…. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”
1 John 5:20: Read it carefully, the verse in 19 says we are the children of God, in 20 it refers to him who is true which is talking about God, and we are in him who is true, so we are in God, and even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life, it only makes sense that its talking about God since in the previous sentences it uses him and his to refer to God himself, why would it suddenly switch to Jesus when the previous sentences are talking about knowing the true one, God. To further back up this point go to Jeremiah 10:10, John 17:3 and John 8:42.Titus 2:13: take your a copy of greek scriptures and look at greek wording of “Savior” in luke 2:11, john 4:42, and Ephesians 5:23 is different than that of the one in Titus 2:13, OBVIOUSLY this means the translation is not simply just savior but it could be, as the NWT put it, “and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus.”…
look at other translations too such as this one
KJV
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;once again you have to look at the facts here, man is imperfect and can make mistakes…
lol as for the one in 2 Peter 1:1 and titus…. i can easily say “i receive money from my wonderful mom and great dad” … lol yeah corny sentence but does that make my mom and dad the same thing? lol you have to think logically here…. these are TRANSLATIONS… THINK!!!!
oh and thanks for quoting 2 cor 4:4…. so this means, since it called satan a god, he MUST be THE almighty god then huh??? with the way that your thinking this means that your going to have to believe this too or else your other beliefs are not valid…
oh i know… idont expect anything out of this… personally i feel like ive benefitted more spiritually than i probably have benefitted others in all of this, lol and actually that girl that broke things off of me because her mom and her church convinced her i was lying to her, well ive been sending her things you guys have been saying and just a ton of verses from the bible, well she was at the point where she said she backs up the trinity 100% but she just told me yesterday that she thinks i am right… its funny because i hadnt prayed for her until just the day before yesterday :/ …. so dont worry i dont expect anything from anyone, if they want to follow the ones who cause division, the ones who compromise god's power, his entirety and wholeness and absolute perfectness, then i feel sorry for them and i will continue to pray for them and do the best i can to help spread the good news to all who are willing to take it in…. i am aware that i am responsible for what i teach people… and if i wasnt sure that what i have is 100% truth then i wouldnt be saying right now that i am going to dedicate my life to help others find the truth…
yeah i know its a big commitment at the age of 18, but my life has done a 180 in these past 3 months, and i wouldnt have it any other way now, lets just say i got involved with a bunch of people i shouldnt have… my life used to be about getting high with my friends and going to parties, i have given up all of that, including my habbit of bad language, and everything that was compromising my relationship with god…
Hi cam,
Right on.
The only way you can know that you are a teacher of truth and not a false teacher is if only the teachings of the bible are in your mouth.
Trinity does not come from the mouth of God.
So it is not of faith.The bible says
“Whatever is not of faith is of sin.”Guess on whose back the Harlot rides?
Hi cam,
The Harlot entraps men in her snares of intellect and it is almost impossible for them to escape.Ecc 7.26
” 26And I discovered more (AK)bitter than death the woman whose heart is (AL)snares and nets, whose hands are chains (AM)One who is pleasing to God will escape from her, but (AN)the sinner will be captured by her.”But nothing is impossible for God.
This is the right way to learn adding truth to truth, not starting from human concepts and then seeking justification for those beliefs
Ecc 7.18
“18It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who (AC)fears God comes forth with both of them. “
and
v 27“Behold, I have discovered this,” says the Preacher, “adding one thing to another to find an explanation,”
Sadly this is also true
v 29
29″Behold, I have found only this, that (AP)God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.”Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 23 2006,15:07) The Scripture plainly cxalls Jesus God: Titus 2:13 NNAS looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,”
Hi Epistemaniac,Let's take a look at your statement, “The Scripture plainly calls Jesus God” and pick up on just one of your 'proof' texts, Titus 2:13.
And let's deal with them one at a time. Then if we can get some agreement on what that text really means, then we can move on and have a look at another one of your alleged 'clear' proof texts, which are ALL misunderstood and misapplied.
Firstly, if we are going to honestly examine Scripture to arrive at the meaning the Holy Spirit intended, then we need to consider a number of other translations, so that we can be sure we are picking up the right thread.
So let's do this; but unfortunately, such will make this a seemingly long post, but I notice that you don't have any aversion to submitting 'long' posts, so please bear with me.
Below is a comparison of this text from numerous versions (using the e-Sword electronic Bible for this purpose – available here: http://www.e-sword.net) Abbreviation used for each version can be obtained from the WEB page.)
Tit 2:13
(ALT) waiting for the blessed hope [or, confident expectation] and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(ASV) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(BBE) Looking for the glad hope, the revelation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
(CEV) We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
(Darby) awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
(DRB) Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
(EMTV) looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(GB) Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ,
(GNB) as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear.
(GW) At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
(HCSB) while we wait for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
(HNV) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Yeshua the Messiah;
(ISV) as we wait for the blessed hope and the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
(KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(KJV+) Looking for4327 that blessed3107 hope,1680 and2532 the3588 glorious1391 appearing2015 of the3588 great3173 God2316 and2532 our2257 Savior4990 Jesus2424 Christ;5547 (Strong's Numbers included)
(KJVA) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(KJVR) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
(LITV) looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(MKJV) looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(MSG) and is whetting our appetites for the glorious day when our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, appears.
(WEB) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;
(Webster) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Savior Jesus Christ;
(WNT) in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope–the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
(YLT) waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
It will be noted that each translation consistently speaks of “great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”. Your view of this is, that it is saying “great God” and “Saviour” are one and the same, so Christ is both. Is this the way Titus understood these words?
I think not if you go back and read Titus 1:4. This verse clearly indentifies God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ as two separate entities. If it doesn't, then Christ must be His own father. Such notion is hardly worth commenting upon. But when we get to Titus 2:13 you want to join them together and make them one and the same? Surely common sense reading tells us that “the great God” is one entity and the Saviour Jesus Christ; His beloved son, is another entity.
The 'great God' being the 'Father' and 'Jesus Christ' being the 'Son', both individuals in their own right, but the Son acting with the full authority and power of His Father. The example of Joseph with Pharoah in Egypt pre-figures this Father and His Son relationship. As the Father's Agent or representative, Christ fully acts in His Father's capacity and carries with Him associated titles. The same as when I worked for a very large Company. I was vested with the name and authority of the Company when I acted in my Company given capacity. When I attended meetings they asked if the Company was inattendance. As the Companies agent or representative, I was able to answer 'Yes'. I carried the Company's name, and all I said and did at such meetings was attributed to the Company
If we fail to understand the capacity in which the Son of God operates, then we will unwittingly misunderstand references like Titus 2:13 and many of the others that you have referred to.
Should you fail to see that there is a another very legitimate way of looking at the references you mention, starting with Titus 2:13, then there will be no point in us discussing this further.
Can you see the possibilities? Over to you.
Elidad
haha well done Elidad… my point exactly, except you actually went through all the trouble of getting those verses from the different bibles…
Hi,
Of course when the Saviour redeemer returns his vessel will still contain our God as their unity is eternal.errr i know this is off topic but does anyone have anything that can help me with someone who is just discouraged and is giving up on their faith and really is just turnign their back on god…. like a website or something or just some verses u know…
Hi Cam,
I have always loved the compassion the Father God shows in Hosea 11 1f” 1When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And (A)out of Egypt I (B)called My son.
2The more Âthey called them,
The more they went from them;
They kept (D)sacrificing to the Baals
And (E)burning incense to idols.
3Yet it is I who taught Ephraim to walk,
I (F)took them in My arms;
But they did not know that I (G)healed them.
4I (H)led them with cords of a man, with bonds of love,
And (I)I became to them as one who lifts the yoke from their jaws;
And I bent down and (J)fed them.
5They will not return to the land of Egypt;
But Assyria–he will be their king
Because they (K)refused to return to Me.
6The (L)sword will whirl against their cities,
And will demolish their gate bars
And (M)consume them because of their (N)counsels.
7So My people are bent on (O)turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8(P)How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like (Q)Admah?
How can I treat you like ÂZeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.”and ps 139
” 1O LORD, You have (A)searched me and known me.
2You (B)know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You Âunderstand my thought from afar.
3You (D)scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You (E)know it all.
5You have (F)enclosed me behind and before,
And (G)laid Your hand upon me.
6Such (H)knowledge is (I)too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7(J)Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8(K)If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, (L)You are there.
9If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10Even there Your hand will (M)lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11If I say, “Surely the (N)darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12Even the (O)darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day
(P)Darkness and light are alike to You.
13For You (Q)formed my inward parts;
You Âwove me in my mother's womb.
14I will give thanks to You, for [a]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
(S)Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15My (T)frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the (U)depths of the earth;
16Your (V)eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in (W)Your book were all written
The (X)days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
17How precious also are Your (Y)thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18If I should count them, they would (Z)outnumber the sand
When (AA)I awake, I am still with You.
19O that You would (AB)slay the wicked, O God;
(AC)Depart from me, therefore, (AD)men of bloodshed.
20For they (AE)speak against You wickedly,
And Your enemies (AF)take Your name in vain.
21Do I not (AG)hate those who hate You, O LORD?
And do I not (AH)loathe those who rise up against You?
22I hate them with the utmost hatred;
They have become my enemies.
23(AI)Search me, O God, and know my heart;
(AJ)Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24And see if there be any (AK)hurtful way in me,
And (AL)lead me in the (AM)everlasting way. “God is LOVE
and Ps 91
“1He who dwells in the (A)shelter of the Most High
Will abide in the (B)shadow of the Almighty.
2I will say to the LORD, “My Ârefuge and my (D)fortress,
My God, in whom I (E)trust!”
3For it is He who delivers you from the (F)snare of the trapper
And from the deadly (G)pestilence.
4He will (H)cover you with His pinions,
And (I)under His wings you may seek refuge;
His (J)faithfulness is a (K)shield and bulwark.
5You (L)will not be afraid of the (M)terror by night,
Or of the (N)arrow that flies by day;
6Of the (O)pestilence that stalks in darkness,
Or of the (P)destruction that lays waste at noon.
7A thousand may fall at your side
And ten thousand at your right hand,
But (Q)it shall not approach you.
8You will only look on with your eyes
And Âsee the recompense of the wicked.
9For you have made the LORD, (S)my refuge,
Even the Most High, (T)your dwelling place.
10(U)No evil will befall you,
Nor will any plague come near your tent.
11For He will give (V)His angels charge concerning you,
To guard you in all your ways.
12They will (W)bear you up in their hands,
That you do not strike your foot against a stone.
13You will (X)tread upon the lion and cobra,
The young lion and the serpent you will trample down.
14″(Y)Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will (Z)set him securely on high, because he has (AA)known My name.
15″He will (AB)call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will rescue him and (AC)honor him.
16″With a (AD)long life I will satisfy him
And (AE)let him see My salvation.”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2006,21:25) Hi,
Of course when the Saviour redeemer returns his vessel will still contain our God as their unity is eternal.
So true Nick, Such is the same for our vessel also. Christ in us, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) Then Christ's prayer will be fully answered. His prayer being:“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” (John 17:11)
This verse shows that however we me may want to think about the relationship that exists between the Father and the Son, after reading John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.” it is Christ's desire that we share in, and become part of that same “oneness” as again stated in John 17:23, which reads:
“I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.”
Elidad
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2006,22:55) and ps 139
” 1O LORD, You have (A)searched me and known me.
2You (B)know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You ©understand my thought from afar.
3You (D)scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You (E)know it all.
5You have (F)enclosed me behind and before,
And (G)laid Your hand upon me.
6Such (H)knowledge is (I)too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
7(J)Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8(K)If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, (L)You are there.
9If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10Even there Your hand will (M)lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11If I say, “Surely the (N)darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12Even the (O)darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day
(P)Darkness and light are alike to You.
13For You (Q)formed my inward parts;
You ®wove me in my mother's womb.
14I will give thanks to You, for [a]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
(S)Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15My (T)frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the (U)depths of the earth;
16Your (V)eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in (W)Your book were all written
The (X)days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
17How precious also are Your (Y)thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18If I should count them, they would (Z)outnumber the sand
When (AA)I awake, I am still with You.
19O that You would (AB)slay the wicked, O God;
(AC)Depart from me, therefore, (AD)men of bloodshed.
20For they (AE)speak against You wickedly,
And Your enemies (AF)take Your name in vain.
21Do I not (AG)hate those who hate You, O LORD?
And do I not (AH)loathe those who rise up against You?
22I hate them with the utmost hatred;
They have become my enemies.
23(AI)Search me, O God, and know my heart;
(AJ)Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24And see if there be any (AK)hurtful way in me,
And (AL)lead me in the (AM)everlasting way. “God is LOVE
Hi Nick, Excuse my ignorance, but when you copy and paste Bible references in your posts, where are you copying them from, as I would like an explanation of all the bracketed additions that come with what you paste, like (A) to (Z) and so on?Cheers
Elidad
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