The Trinity Doctrine

[JW]

I would like to say that anywhere i get my material from is directly from the watchtower society, the mateiral i got came directly from our website at http://www.watchtower.org The trinity publication can be found within there, and it has a nice layout and strong points as to why we believe what we do

as for comments made about our religion being a cult, the idea is incorrect as we are a bible based religion with a message of peace, united world wide, we do not believe in things such as mass suicide or locate to a remote area like cults do however we live our lives within the community helping where we can but not conflicting with the word of god, after all he did say love thy nieghbor. I hope this clarifies any misconception anyone would have against my religion, I am not here to mock anyone elses and I simply wish to give a different perspective on a controversial doctrine that has been argued about since its origin, not from the word of god, but from an ungodly pagan emperor and a doctrine that if were true wouldve been made as clear as possible by god

(Edited by JW at 4:20 am on June 8, 2002)

[Ambassador of Christ]

This is in reply to t8:

I was just reading your post. I have a few things to comment on, but I will start first with the following:

you said, "Do checkout Proverbs 8:22-30. It speaks of someone who was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
This person was given birth before creation.
This person helped in crafting creation.

Who is this person? This person sounds very similar to the Word in John 1:1 if you ask me. If it’s not the word, then who is it? "

Indeed, I believe that this proverb which speaks of a person called "wisdon" refers to the Word before He became human. However, reading this proverb, one might think it shows that "wisdom", or as we agree, the Word, was created. It in fact does not. Proverbs 8:22-25 (RSV) says:

"The LORD created me at the beginning of His work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there was no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth.

The Hebrew word that usually means create (bara) is not used in verse 22. Rather, the Hebrew word that is used is the word qanah. This word is used well over 70 times in the Old Testament. Nearly each time this word is used it means "to get, or acquire" Nowhere in verse 22, or anywhere else in this proverb is "wisdom", or as we agree, the Word, shown to be created. He is shown to be acquired and brought forth. The Father acquired the Word and He was brought forth and they worked together in the performing God’s work. In order to be acquired and brought forth, the Word would already had to have be there. This proverb does not show that the Word was created, it only shows that He was already there and was brought forth to work with the Father in God’s magnificent works.

[Ambassador of Christ]

This is in response to t8: "If you could show me a scripture that shows that Jesus is everlasting to everlasting, then I could believe this in faith"

If Jesus is not everlasting to everlasting, then at some point Jesus would have to have been made and created. However, Jesus Christ could not have been created based on the following verses:

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

These verses clearly state that ALL things were made and created by Jesus Christ.

We also know that all things were made and created by God:

Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

We now know that God as well as Jesus Christ created all things. Even if one does not believe that this fact alone shows that Jesus CHrist would have to be God in order to participate in creation, at the very least one would have to agree based off scripture that Jesus Christ did participate in creation of all things.

As we look at the verses, we find that Jesus Christ participated in the creation of ALL things. These verses also tell us that ALL things that have ever been created and made were done so by Jesus Christ.

Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is not everlasting to everlasting, but was created, would have to also believe that Jesus Christ created himself. If all things were created by Christ, and Christ himself was created, then He would had to have participated in His own creation. This is of course impossible and raises contradictions in scripture. Therefore, Jesus Christ was never created, but rather He is everlasting to everlasting.

Finally, a few of the many other verses that show CHrist to be everlasting:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[Ambassador of Christ]

This is to answer the request for scripture that says Jesus Christ is almighty:

In the following verse is a song of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. In the song, He is refered to as almighty.

Revelation 15:2-4 ". . . .They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty Just and true are your ways, King of the ages. Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."

The following are more verses affirming Christ as almighty:

Revelation 11:17 ". . . .saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign."

Revelation 16:7 "And I heard the altar respond: "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments."

Revelation 19:6 "Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns"

Other verses that refer to Christ as Almighty can be found in the Old Testament. Though those verses refer to YAHWEH as almighty, it still refers to Christ in that He revealed himself as YAHWEH in the Old Testament. Scripture affirms this fact in many places, but I will point to just one for starters.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

HOWEVER, Jacob, Moses, the elders of Israel, Manoah, and his wife all saw God. If this verse is true, and God the Father has never been seen, then who could those people have seen God, unless it was a part of God that wasnt the Father. They in fact saw God the Son. I can elaborate on this issure more, but I’d like to see your thoughts first and then answer any questions or comments you might have.

-God Bless

[Proclaimer]

I will post again soon.
I have been extremely busy over the last month and a half.

[Ramblinrose]

Sorry, that last post was for Ambassodor of Christ. This one is also:

You quoted the following.

****** In the following verse is a song of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. In the song, He is refered to as almighty.

Revelation 15:2-4 ". . . .They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty Just and true are your ways, King of the ages. Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed." *******

Please, please reread you scripture. I quote

Rev 15:2 ….
“And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.
And they sing THE SONG OF MOSES, the servant of God, and THE SONG OF THE LAMB, saying, "Great and wonderful are thy deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are thy ways, O King of the ages!
4 Who shall not fear and glorify thy name, O Lord? For thou alone art holy. All nations shall come and worship thee, for thy judgments have been revealed."

Those who had conquered the beast were singing THE SONG OF MOSES and the SONG OF THE LAMB. They were singing a song that both Moses and the Lamb (Jesus) would sing. They are the authors of the song, they sing it to God. God is great and wonderful, he is the Lord God the Almighty.

Then you quote the following

***Revelation 11:17 ". . . .saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign."****

You need to stop selecting just one verse and read more before and after a verse, please see the following: from Revelation 11:

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD AND OF HIS CHRIST, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before GOD on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped GOD,
17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

Once again this passage is speaking about God, Jesus is only mentioned in passing, all the praise is for GOD. He will judge, it is his kingdom we seek. Remember this prayer.

Our Father, who are in heaven, hallowed be thy name, THY KINGDOM COME, THEY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN……

This is the same for the next two passages rev: 16.7 and 19.6 which you have quoted. Please re-read these scripture in their entirety and you will see that the are speaking about God and not Jesus.

You mention at the end:

***John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

HOWEVER, Jacob, Moses, the elders of Israel, Manoah, and his wife all saw God. If this verse is true, and God the Father has never been seen, then who could those people have seen God, unless it was a part of God that wasnt the Father. They in fact saw God the Son. I can elaborate on this issure more, but I’d like to see your thoughts first and then answer any questions or comments you might have.***

You will find that if you read the old testatment, anyone who saw or spoke to an Angel says that they have seen God when the bible specifically says they spoke to an angel. eg. Hagar and Ishmael Genesis 16, please read the whole chapter (very short). You can see that at:

verse 7 “The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert… “

then at verse 9 it says “Then the angel of the LORD told her…”

and Verse 10 says “Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.”

and Verse 11 also says – And the Angel of the LORD said to her: "Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has heard your affliction.

"Yet when you get to Verse 13 you will see that things have changed

“She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “ I have now seen the One who sees me.”

So it seems that when angels appear carrying Gods message they are looked upon as being God himself.

Many other passages reflect this. God is said to have been in the pillar of fire and smoke yet this is also said to be an angel. So, those that say they have seen God have seen his messengers.

This also fits in where Jesus says that if you have seen me you have seen the father. He brought Gods word, just like the angels…

God Bless

[Ambassador of Christ]

This is in reply to Ramblinrose:

I thank you for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to study God’s word in search for truth. You posted to a lot of things, so to keep from going over too much too fast I will stick with one post at a time. This will help us to explore each idea fully and completely. The first area I would like to respond to is in reference to creation:

You said: "A house can be built by the future owners who do absolutely no work at all. The house is built through them but the tradesmen with the tools and ability are the ones who do the work. So it is their house, they built it through the tradesmen but they themselves did not lift a hand. They designed it and said which brick, which tiles, how big etc. etc. Therefore they built the house through the workmen. Can you see what I am pointing to.

God offers to build his son a kingdom. “How would you like it to be” asks God. So they work together on the project but God builds it as he is the one who has the power to do so. So the world was made BY GOD through Jesus. When it comes to creating man God says “Let US make man in our image”. Which fits in perfectly with the above description. They were working on the project together and God the Father has suggested that they make man in their own image (a soul and a spirit). "

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE FATHER IS GOD BUT THE SON IS NOT? I am trying to understand who you believe the Father and Son to be and what you believe to be their roles in creation. If I misunderstand what you believe, please correct me. It is not my intention to misrepresent you in any way.

First: In your analogy, from what I gather, you show the Son to be the “future owner” and the Father to be “the tradesman with the tools and ability.” By saying that the future owner “does absolutely no work at all,” you mean this to show that the Son does “absolutely no work at all.” So in your understanding of creation, the Father is the one who actually does the crafting while the Son dictates, and this interaction between the Father and Son takes place before anything is created. DO I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY?

Second: You said that “They were working on the project together.” So the Father is not alone in creating, but has the help of the Son who takes part in creation by describing how it should be. DO I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY ON THIS?

Third: In Colossians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” You question the use of the word “by” and prefer the word “through.” That is fine. Let’s use the word through in verse 16. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT COLOSSIANS 1:16 AS WELL AS JOHN 1:3 IS REFERING TO ALL THINGS? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT EVERY PART OF CREATION WAS CREATED “THROUGH” THE SON?

I tried to capitalize my questions to you. If you could answer these questions, I think it will give a better understanding of what we believe and how it differs. I think it will be much easier if we go back and forth questioning each other on one specific topic at a time. This will keep out posts specific, direct, and in order.

-God Bless

[Ramblinrose]

To Ambassador of Christ,

What I believe has not necessarily been a long journey but a difficult one.  I attend a church that believes in the trinity and I have tried to accept this belief as I don’t wish to be the odd one out.  I have studied the scripture only to find that there is no Trinity.  I have taken much material off the internet in regard to the Trinity and studied it, but God keeps showing me different. I do not push my view on anyone, I dislike information I read on the internet that states that if I don’t believe in the Trinity I am lost (remember that how you judge you shall also be judged – so everyone should be very careful when making such  judgements).  Please show me the scripture that says I must believe that God is a trinity made up of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
I am not, and have never been a JW.  I was baptised as a baby a Roman Catholic but no longer follow that denomination.  I have been studying the scripture only a short time compared to many.  I read it at every opportunity, I can’t seem to get enough of it.  God keeps showing me things each time I read it.  I have not done a great deal of study in the Old Testament and I can’t remember Chapter and verse like many others.  I purchased a computer Bible (CD) which has many bible versions as well as commentaries, cross-references, Strong’s, dictionary and other books.  Everything at the flick of a button, or just pop in a phrase (much easier than many bibles and other books open all over the floor).
What I believe:
GOD
There is only one God (Yahweh) the Father.  He created all thing through his Son, Jesus.  I worship one God (Yahweh)  and I worship  Jesus as the Son of God and as Lord.
1 Corinthians 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
JESUS
I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.  I believe we have salvation through him.  I believe that God is Jesus’ Father and his God.
John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
HOLY SPIRIT
I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.  Not a separate person or a force but God’s actual spirit.  God sends part of his spirit to live in us.  Jesus was guided by God’s spirit when he was on earth, even given the spirit without limit.
John 4:24  “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
matthew 10::20  For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Matthew 12:28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Luke 4:18  The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Romans 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Romans 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 15:19  Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:10  But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11  For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14  The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 6:11  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

When I read the bible I find many passages that show that God and Jesus are two persons.  The following for example.   Acts 7:55,56
55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Please explain to me how, if Jesus is standing on the right hand of GOD, you can say he is God.  How is this possible?  Can you tell me honestly that if you saw the heavens roll back, like Stephen did, and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of GOD, that you would still say that Jesus is God?
Why is the teaching of the trinity never mentioned in any of the Letters written by the apostles?  Paul preached to Gentiles who did not know God and yet he never clarified this point.  They had never studied the Old Testament and became believers by the words that Paul spoke to them, yet he never taught the Trinity.   The start of all letters shows God and Jesus as two separate persons, as can be seen below.
.
1 Corinthians 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:
2 Corinthians 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2 Corinthians 11:31  The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
Galatians 1:1  Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Galatians 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
Galatians 1:4  who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Ephesians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Ephesians 1:17  that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
Philippians 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:3  We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
1 Thessalonians 1:1  Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:2  We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers,
1 Thessalonians 1:3  remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
2 Thessalonians 1:1  Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,
1 Timothy 1:2  To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Timothy 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 1:2  To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Timothy 1:3  I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day,
Titus 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God‘s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Philemon 1:3  Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
James 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 Peter 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:2  Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2 John 1:3  Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Jude 1:1  Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

WHAT I DON’T BELIEVE:
I don’t believe in – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and that they are all one God.  To me this is a three headed god.  Nowhere in scripture is Jesus refered to as ‘God the Son’ nor is the Holy Spirit referred to as ‘God the Holy Spirit’ (please refer to Holy Spirit – above).
So, your question was – DO I BELIEVE THAT THE FATHER IS GOD BUT THE SON IS NOT.  –  Yes, I believe that.
*********
The house analogy was rather crude but was an effective way to show that something can be created through someone  without them actually building it.  I don’t believe that Jesus will be the future owner as the house analogy leans towards, I believe he will rule as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  God created this world through his son, for his son.  Jesus will be the ruler but God will rule over all. **** I suppose another analogy would be to say that God is a king and Jesus a prince.  Say a king allows his son to rule over some of his provinces, the prince would rule but the king is still the king. ***** Another analogy – A father loves he son with every fibre of his being, he is the perfect son who always does the will of his father and loves his father as much as his father loves him.  The father wants to give him something so he builds him a billycart.  The father created the billy cart because of the son, so he created it through him.  If he had never had a son he may never have built the billycart. So, it is through the love he has for the son that he built it – therefore he built the billycart through his son. — Now lets change the names. —- God the Father loves his son with every fibre of his being, he is the perfect son who always does the will of God his Father and loves his Father as much as God the Father loves him. God the Father wants to give him something, so he creates the world as we know it.  God the Father created the world because of the son, so he created it through the son.  If he had never begotton a son he may never have created the world. So, it is through the love he has for his son that he created the world.        He created the world through him and for him..
Timothy 6:13  I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
Hebrews 3:4  For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
I believe that everything was created through Jesus but what you call everything can be a bit hard to determine.  
Colossians 1:16-19
“ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; that in all things he may have the pre-eminence.
19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
Now lets look a bit more closely.  “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven,…”  Some translations have ‘in the heavens’.  What do you define heaven as?
Strong’s – 3772 ouranov ouranos oo-ran-os’
perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; TDNT-5:497,736; n m
AV-heaven 268, air 10, sky 5, heavenly + 1537; 284
1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
1a) the universe, the world
1b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
1c) the sidereal or starry heavens
2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings
If by heaven and earth the bible is meaning everything ever created (angels and cherubim etc.) then I will agree.  But could it be that we are referring more to the world as we know it – the earth and the heavens (universe, stars and planets, etc).  If this is the case it lends itself to something else I have thoughts on, but maybe to elaborate now is not the time.
It is important to also note the meaning of ‘all things’
Strong’s  –   3956 pav pas pas
including all the forms of declension; TDNT-5:886,795; adj
AV-all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
++++
…” the whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go after Christ?  “then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God, little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile … (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)
Verse 17 says, ‘He is before all things’.  As you can see above, ALL THINGS does not necessarily mean ALL. So, through Jesus ALL THINGS were created and he was before ALL THINGS.  That being the case, were ALL things created through Jesus, and was Jesus before the angels etc, or is it that he was only before the creation of the world/universe.  This is a hard one and difficult to make a decision, but because I have other thoughts on this matter I could lean towards him being born after the angels. Which would mean that God created Angels etc, then he begot Jesus, then through Jesus he created the world for him.
Hebrews 1:6  And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
If the above scripture is referring to the time Jesus was born and the Angels worshipped him – the Angels were already created.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT EVERY PART OF CREATION WAS CREATED “THROUGH” THE SON?   The world as we know it (earth, sky,
universe, seas etc) definitely YES.  The Angels and Cherubim etc, I can not be sure at this stage (more study needed before I would give a definite decision).
There you go, questions answered.  
God Bless,  

[Proclaimer]

Hi,

I know I haven’t posted for a long time, but that doesn’t mean that I have given up. On the contrary this subject is extremely important and because of this importance, I will write when the the time is right. At the moment I am extremely busy and writing now may cause me to make mistakes.

Anyway for now I just want to point out one verse for us to consider. It clearly points out that God and Jesus are different. It also reinforces Ramblinrose’s point that God is the supreme authority and God has given Jesus rulership, it even states that Jesus is not God, (not the Father). I believe that God became a Father when he begat a Son. I think that this is a clear teaching repeated in many scriptures.

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet."
Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.  

Also to Ramblinrose: You say that you are researching if Jesus was begotten before or after the Angels. First of all I want to commend you on your honest search for truth in the face (onslaught) of religious tradition. Your faith is rare indeed. I encourage you to keep up this search because many have departed the truth and we need this Apostolic type of ministry. I have never really thought about this, but I hold to the opinion that Christ came first before all things created. I can’t check it out becuase I do not have a Concordance and other tools, but I think that the word creation can mean cosmos?? and it says somewhere that all things that were made, were made thorugh Christ, and I think that Angels were made. Also Jesus is called the The Morning Star in Revelation and Lucifer was called son of the morning! in Isaiah 14:12 KJV. This opinion is dependant on Lucifer and Satan being the same person. (before and after).
Anyway like I say, I haven’t really looked into this, but with my limited understanding here I have given you my opinion. Perhaps if you want to talk about this more you can start another thread.

I notice you are from AUS. I am from NZ just across the ditch.

[Ramblinrose]

To Ambassador of Christ

You quoted John 1.18
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

I have checked a number of different bible versions and not one out of seven is quoted as above, they all quote as below.

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Just thought I’d let you know.

God Bless

[Ramblinrose]

To t8

Thank you for your comment. It is a very lonely path but once you are on it and see God for who he really is, and the great sacrifice of Jesus his Son, you just can’t depart.

If you look at sites which hold information about the Trinity you will see that this is the most read subject of all. I feel that people have read their bibles and don’t see a trinity, yet are told they have to believe it. These people go searching for answers as they seek the truth, whether they seek and find the trinity and then believe it fully or come to believe as t8 and myself, is a path only each individual can travel. I know some people who have just accepted what they have been told, they say ‘You shouldn’t question, it’s something you believe by faith’, or ‘ my church says that I should believe it, so I do’ (If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into a ditch) Unfortunately many of these people have never opened their bible to seek God. God gave his word to us so we could all see the light, those who seek will find.

t8 quoted the following:
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet."
Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

This is just one of so many versus that show God and Jesus as two persons. Why are these overlooked by Trinitarians.

Another thing I find interesting is that a lot of Trinitarians and others, do no believe that the world was created in six literal days or that there was a world wide flood (Genesis). I know this is another subject but I just want to say this. How can anyone argue any belief if you don’t believe in the absolute grass roots. I just wish to state that I believe that the world was created in six literal days and that God rested on the seventh. I believe that there was a world wide flood and that only Noah and his family survived. I know this because God has revealed it to us through the bible. What a wonderful, amazing and loving God we have.

To close, a little something I read, that you may also like:

When at night you wake and cannot sleep,
Talk to the Shepard, don’t count sheep.

God Bless

[Ambassador of Christ]

Hey,

I am out of town right now, but I hope to be back later tonight. I will do my best to respond to you posts, but it is starting to get really busy right now. I start classes Monday morning, and have about 900 things to get done before then, but I will do my best to respond fully to your posts. In reading your responses, I feel you might have a misunderstanding of what the Trinity really is. You make an excellent point that the Father and Son are two different persons. I completely agree with you. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father. They are three seperate and distinct persons. They all share the same BEING, that is God. YAHWEH is ONE God made up of three seperate, coequal persons. I dont not beleive in three Gods. Let me try to give a good working deff. of the Trinity, and hopefully clear up any confusion you might have as to what I feel the scripture teaches. The ONE being of God is shared by three co-equal and co-eternal persons, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Please note the difference in the words "BEING" and "PERSON" They are seperate persons, but they share the same being that is God. I hope this helps you to understand what the Trinity really is. Just one quick note before I finish this post. You posted many verses that describe the Holy Spirit as the "Spirit of God" but you left out the verses that describe the Holy Spirit as "The Spirit of CHrist." You might want to go back and look those up. I would also challenge you to go back over what the bible teaches on worship. Are we to only worship God? Finally, if you beleive that Christ we involved in creation, I would ask you to consider how it is possible for a part of creation to create himself. Does ALL of creation worship the Son? If so, does He worship himself? These are just a few things you can think about and look up in scripture until I can post later tonight. I will be answering these points in full in my next post.

-God Bless

[Ambassador of Christ]

One thing I forgot to ask:

Do you have AOL instant messenger? If so, I’d be glad to exchange screen names with you so we can talk there and get more accomplished in a shorter amount of time. I also have other chat programs such as MIRC, and Pal talk if you would like to use those.

God Bless

[Proclaimer]

I think Instant Messenger is a good idea, but I would prefer that it was done though the BBS so that others can benefit from all the thought, time and prayer that we are all sacrificing. Remember that checking out beliefs and teachings in the scripture is a good thing. To bring this out into the light gives room for God to reveal his truth to others who may read this and may save others treading the same ground, so they can go further.
What do you guy’s think??

[Proclaimer]

Yes, I understand the Trinity doctrine.
It basically says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit combined are God. Each is God, but there is only one God. Like the members of you own family eg. Jack is a Jones, Jill is a Jones, and Bob is a Jones, they are all different but they are all the Jones family.

However, it is not the lack of understanding that has lead me to disbelieve the trinity doctrine, it’s the fact that it is not taught in scripture and the fact that the doctrine appeared hundreds of years later, from very suspicious circumstances and delivered by the ungodly to control those whom they could not control, because of their allegience to Christ, not Ceasar. Also the scriptures CLEARLY teach a different pattern than what this man-made creed dictates. (How can any good thing come from the spirit of Man?).

What I am trying to say all along is that God became a Father when he begat a Son. The Son is not created because creation is all that came through the Son from the Father. Rather the Son is in between God and creation, he is also known as the only Mediator, the Word, the Christ, the Messiah and the Lord and the only begotten Son from the Father.

Again the Divine order is God, Christ, Man.

This teaching is supported by an incredible amount of scriptures. To deny this teaching is to deny alot of the bible, eg

Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches, the Father is the Gardner…

There is one God the Father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ…

There is one Mediator between Man and God…

Jesus is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty on High… We are seated at the right hand of Christ…

Jesus is seated on the Fathers throne, we are seated on Jesus throne…

Jesus is the image of God, we are the image of Christ. The scriptures do not mention anywhere that the Father is the image os someone else (He is the original, Originator, the Most High, the only True God)…

The Father is Jesus God and our God…

God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man and man is the head of woman… (head means source)

Jesus only does and says what his Father does and says, we should do the same with Christ… The Father is lead by no one, he is the Most High…

God knows everything, there are things that Jesus does not know, there are many things that we (man) do not know…

God was in Christ revealing himself to Man… Christ should be in us revealing the Son and consequently God, to mankind…

The book of Revelation was given by God, to Christ, to the Angel, to John, to the Seven Churches and then to us.

Jesus is the firstborn of the Father, Adam was the firstborn of mankind, but he fell and only the firstborn from the Father could redeem us. He also become the second Adam, so that we may have eteral life.

God cannot fellowship with sinful man. God can fellowship with sinful man through Christ, because he takes our sins away. God himself doesn’t remove our sin.

God didn’t die for us, God didn’t take sin upon himself. The Son did. God didn’t become flesh, the Word did…

========================================
It seems strange to me that trinitarians cannot see past God and Man, they cannot see who the Word really is, they are blind to the Mediator, the one between God and Man. You know many believe in God, even the Demons believe in God. But how many really know who Christ is. Peter declared that He was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son. Jesus told Peter that the Father revealed this, not man. I think the trinity was revealed by man.

Light has come into the world and the world preferred darkness. Jesus is that light. But darkness hides the truth and false Gods are from the Kningdom of Darkness. To say that Jesus is one part of a trinity god, is no better than the religion of the Egyptians and Babylonians The Babylonians also worshipped the virgin, the Mother of God. The trinity is just placing Christ into an Egyptian/Babylonian god package.

Trintarians argue that if Jesus wasn’t God then he was fully man, why does this have to be the only 2 choices. You certainly didn’t get this from scripture. It is pure indoctrination. I know because I was taught the same thing for years myself and believed without question. This is what brainwashing is all about. If you hear it long enough you just accept it. This is how the carnal nature responds and is why different parts of the world have strongholds and different belief systems. I think that alot of people who accept the trinity would probably accept communism had they be born in communist China, or Hinduism had they been born in Hindu India or Catholicisim had they been born in South America, or Islam had they been born in Pakistan. Why do I say this, because most if not all who believe in a doctrine that was formulated centuries after the last book in the bible and believe in a doctrine that goes against clear teachings in the scripture, proves to me at least that these people do not think or challenge or search. Then they flattly refuse all scriptures that contradict their beleif. They just accept whatever is given to them from man, and then once indoctrinated they defend that belief with a sense of patriotism. Same thing in sport, you live in Manchester, you support Manchester United. You live in New Zealand you support the All Blacks. You live in Chicago, you support the Chicago Bulls. It’s all pride and the Devil uses this. Man is so fickle and so easy to manipulate.

Is there anyone out there that is willing to search for the truth and give their life up for the truth. To seek Jesus is to really and honestly seek the truth, because he is the truth. To some of the religious and traditional, Jesus will say, Depart from me for you never knew me. Truth is a person. Are you willing to say in the face of truth, that he is something else contrary to his own scripture and revelation but rather he is what Man dictated 300 hundred years after the last book in the bible and on the revelation or decision of a Roman Emperor because that is going to look really funny on judgement day. You are one part of the trinity ok Jesus. Just accept it Jesus because you are out numbered.

[Ambassador of Christ]

to t8:

First of all I’d like to propose that we use Instant messenger, as it will allow for easier and more indepth discussions. We can also continue to post on this website. I also feel like the discussions we have on here will help others. Here is my screen name: tuliptrinitarian You can either just message me and add me to your buddy list, or you can give me your screen name and I will add you to mine. This way we can have easier discussions, and we can still post on this site. I look foward to chatting with you on Instant messenger.

Secondly, I apologize if there was any confusion. My earlier post was directed to Ramblinrose. I forgot to note that. However, I would like to make one thing clear. I am doing my best to base this discussion off of scripture. I believe the bible very clearly teaches the deity of Christ. I feel this discussion should be done so off of scripture alone. I do not beleive the deity of Christ because I read it in a creed or because someone else had this idea before me. I beleive the deity of Christ because it is very clearly taught in scripture. So I just wanted to make that statement very clear that I beleive in the deity of Christ as well as the trinity based off scripture, not man’s ideas.

-God Bless

[Proclaimer]

Below are 100 verses from every book in the New Testament that show God and Jesus to be different. This is an overwhelming amount of scriptures that confirm that God is the Father and Jesus is from God. True faith in God, is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

Matthew 27:46

Mark 1:24

Mark 10:18

Mark 15:34

Mark 16:19

Luke 2:52

Luke 6:12

Luke 18:19

John 3:2

John 8:42

John 8:54

John 9:3

John 13:31

John 14:1*

John 17:3

John 20:17

Acts 2:22

Acts 2:32

Acts 2:36

Acts 3:13

Acts 4:10

Acts 5:30

Acts 7:55

Acts 10:36

Acts 10:38

Acts 13:23

Acts 20:21

Romans 1:7

Romans 1:8

Romans 2:16

Romans 3:22

Romans 4:24

Romans 5:1

Romans 5:11

Romans 5:15

Romans 5:17

Romans 6:23

Romans 7:25

Romans 8:34

Romans 10:9

Romans 15:5

Romans 15:6

Romans 16:27

1 Corinthians 1:3

1 Corinthians 1:9

1 Corinthians 1:30

1 Corinthians 8:6

1 Corinthians 15:57

2 Corinthians 1:2

2 Corinthians 1:3

2 Corinthians 11:31

2 Corinthians 13:14

Galatians 1:1

Galatians 1:3

Ephesians 1:2

Ephesians 1:3

Ephesians 1:17

Ephesians 2:6

Ephesians 6:23

Philippians 1:2

Philippians 2:11

Colossians 1:3*
Colossians 3:17

1 Thessalonians 1:1

1 Thessalonians 1:3

1 Thessalonians 3:11

1 Thessalonians 3:13

1 Thessalonians 4:14

1 Thessalonians 5:9

2 Thessalonians 1:1

2 Thessalonians 1:2

2 Thessalonians 1:12

2 Thessalonians 2:16

1 Timothy 1:1

1 Timothy 1:2

1 Timothy 2:5

1 Timothy 5:21

1 Timothy 6:3

2 Timothy 1:1

2 Timothy 1:2

2 Timothy 4:1

Titus 1:4

Titus 2:13

Philemon 1:3

Hebrews 13:20

James 1:1

1 Peter 1:2

1 Peter 2:5

2 Peter 1:1

2 Peter 1:2

1 John 5:1*

1 John 5:20

2 John 1:3

Jude 1:1

Jude 1:4

Jude 1:21

Jude 1:25

Revelation 1:1

Revelation 1:2

Revelation 14:12

[Ambassador of Christ]

If anyone has an instant messenger screen name, feel free to post it, and I will add you to my list. Also, I will be posting later tonight.

God Bless

[Proclaimer]

To Ambassador of Christ:
This post doesn't answer any of your questions or statements. I am just laying a foundation for what will come next.

Most of the basis for the trinity doctrine is concerning the use of the title “Elohim”, translated “God”. The word “Elohim” is the most overused word in trying to prove the Trinity. The word “Elohim” does have other uses than 'deity'. It can also mean a “judge” or a “ruler”. This is also true of the word 'Theos' in greek. In fact, one of the translations translated “theos” as 'ruler'. The high trust in this word can be refuted if you understand that Elohim is a title that describes Yahweh just as the word “King” or “Master” describes Yahweh. It is not really a crown of some sort. It is not such a proprietary thing to be called “Elohim”. It is true that there is only one Elohim. Just as there is really only one Master. But this word is also used to describe other authorities.
=================

The word “God”, in the Old and New Testament are translated from many different words and each original Hebrew or Greek word for God have a wide range of uses.

Theos {theh'-os} is by far the most common Greek word that we translate as God or god. Below are the possible meanings of the word “theos”.

1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God's representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges

Now I will show you some Biblical verses that apply the word God (Theos) to denote different personalities.

Below we see a verse where the word “theos” is used when referring to the Father.

Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Now you will see a verse where the Greek word “theos” is used to describe Jesus.

John 20:28-29 (English-NIV)
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! (theos)”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The word “theos” in the next verse is used to describe Satan.

2Corinthians 4:4 (English-NIV)
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).

The word (theos) is also used to describe Man see below.

John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and again we see that the word “God” can apply to our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, Angelic & Demonic powers, idols and mankind.

The NIV & NASB translate the following 3 words as God “el” “eloah” & “elohim”
Each is a generic term, meaning “God” or “mighty one”.
Normally when one of these words occur in the OT, it designates either the true God or something that the pagan nations viewed as a god. In only a few instances are these words used of angels or human beings.

Below is a scripture that shows that the Father is God.

Malachi 2:10 (English-NIV)
Have we not all one Father ? Did not one God (el) create us?
Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?

Next I will show you a verse where the Hebrew word “eloah” is used to describe Jesus.
We will be looking at this scripture in more depth in Part 5 (Scriptures that are used to support the trinity doctrine).

Isaiah 9:6 (English-NIV)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (el), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Next we can see that the word god is used to denote idols.

Exodus 20:23 (English-NIV)

Do not make any gods (elohiym) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (elohiym) of silver or gods (elohiym) of gold.

The word “elohiym” is the most common word that is tanslated God in the Old Testament.

Genesis 1:1 (English-NIV) says:
In the beginning God (elohiym) created the heavens and the earth.

“elohiym” is also used to describe Man. See next the verse.

Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are “gods” (elohiym); you are all sons of the Most High.'

These scriptures show us that the word God is not always used to describe the Most High God but rather is a word that can apply to many types of authority. I think that it is very important that we read each verse in its correct context eg The Most High God is completely different to the god of this age.

========================================
Taken from my page https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-04.htm

[Proclaimer]

I AM.

"Before Abraham was, I am." These words, spoken by our Savior in Jn.8:58, have led to much controversy and confusion. Some use this verse to prove the the trinity doctrine and to prove that Yahshua (Jesus) is Yahweh, the great "I AM" of Ex.3:14.

The phrase "I am" is "ego eimi" in Greek. Since the Greek New Testament records Yahshua using "ego eimi" many times. Ex.3:14-15 reads, "And Elohim said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh, Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." Therefore, the "I AM" is identified as "Yahweh."

And what does Yahweh say in Ps.2:7? "I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Yahweh is the Father of Yahshua. Yahshua is the Son of Yahweh. Yahshua is not Yahweh and the Son is not the Father. Therefore, Yahshua (the Son of Yahweh) cannot be the I AM (Yahweh).

It is believed by some that Jn.8:59 further supports the position that Yahshua is the "I AM." Why else would the Jews try to stone him? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews, a stoneable offense.

Is the mere utterance of "ego eimi" a blasphemy? Does the use of "ego eimi" automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? Yahshua used "ego eimi" as well. In Lu.1:19, the angel Gabriel said, "Ego eimi Gabriel." In Jn.9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Yahshua said, "Ego eimi." In Acts 10:21, Peter said, "Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek." Obviously, the mere use of "ego eimi" does not equate one to the "I Am" of Ex.3:14.

Yashua used the phrase "ego eimi" at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (Jn.8:58). Yahshua said, "I am the bread of life" to a large crowd, in Jn.6:35 & 48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, "I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven." But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, "I came down from heaven" and ignored "ego eimi." The same is true of verses 51 & 52.

In Jn.8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Yahshua used "ego eimi" with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in Jn.10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Yahshua said to his disciples, "…that…ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)" in Jn.13:19 without them batting an eye.

An interesting account occurs in Jn.18 when the Jews came to arrest Yahshua in the Garden of Gethsemane. When the chief priests and Pharisees said they were seeking Yahshua of Nazareth, Yahshua said to them, "Ego eimi." At that they fell backward to the ground. It is not made clear why they fell to the ground, but what followed will make it clear that Yahshua was not claiming to be the "I AM."

After Yahshua’s arrest, the Jews took him to Annas first (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Mt.26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Yahshua to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn’t find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn’t bear false witness about what Yahshua said in Jn.8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days. Where were all those witnesses from Jn.8:58?

The point about Mt.26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Yahshua say "Ego eimi." They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn’t. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn’t. Why not? Because it wasn’t blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Yahshua of Nazareth.

This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Yahshua;

1) accused the Jews of "judging after the flesh" (vs.15).
2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
8) said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
10) accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
11) accused them of lying (vs.55).

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yahshua’s words leading them to believe;

1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
2) Yahshua had a devil (vs.52).
3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

Yahshua’s words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn’t restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, "ego eimi," but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

To say that Jesus claimed to be God because he said "I am" can only be at most, an opinion. It is obviously not a teaching but simply an historical occurance. Nor is there any teaching in the bible that uses this occurance as a teaching to promote the trinity or to prove that Yashua is Yahweh. To hinge the trinity doctrine on an assumption is indeed a weak argument to make and wouldn’t get very far in a court of law. And to say that we are condemned if we do not believe in a certain vague interpretation is totally unreasonable (remember that we are judged by the measures we judge others). If you read the Bible and read it from cover to cover would you come to the conclusion that Jn.8:58 is saying that Jesus is God and part of a trinity. I really do not think so, therfore it is unfair to condemn someone who doesn’t hold to your opinion with this scripture and I have to note that there are hundreds of scriptures that show us clearly that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God. These verses are clear teachings. The trinity doctrine is based on weak assumtions and the mind of Man. I prefer to believe the scriptures, rather than assumtions.
===================================
Some text taken from other websites.

[Author]

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