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Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 16 2006,01:42) I think I'm in trouble in this Forum. I just realized that both of you guys are Administrators. I may have accidently joined this forum. I did not know what type of forum this was. I thought it was about sharing the gospel with one another. I do sincerely apologize. I hope you do not take offense in my replies. I'm sorry if I upset you guys.
Hi Robyn,
This forum welcomes all information from the bible about anything so you cannot get into trouble here.Those who do not realise that God has given us the scriptures to find truth from often are surprised when we remind them of this fact.
Their poor fare of speculations and myths and legends are exposed for what they are and they are advised that the fear of God demands that we love and abide in the Word.
Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 15 2006,23:04) The Trinity is very important in Christian doctorine concerning the truth and unity of the Godhead. As we all know that the Godhead consists of God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Basically the Father is God, his Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Not three Gods but only one. In this Trinity is the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son.
no your wrong robyn… look up “godhead” in ANY encyclopedia it will give you this precise information:the word Godhead is itself a word that simply means “godhood”[1] and, thus, it is erroneous to use it as synonymous with the English word “trinity.”
go to reference.com wikipedia.org or any encyclopedia, they will all tell you this
Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 17 2006,19:05) Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 15 2006,23:04) The Trinity is very important in Christian doctorine concerning the truth and unity of the Godhead. As we all know that the Godhead consists of God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Basically the Father is God, his Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Not three Gods but only one. In this Trinity is the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son.
no your wrong robyn… look up “godhead” in ANY encyclopedia it will give you this precise information:the word Godhead is itself a word that simply means “godhood”[1] and, thus, it is erroneous to use it as synonymous with the English word “trinity.”
go to reference.com wikipedia.org or any encyclopedia, they will all tell you this
Cam, Nick, T8 & Cubes,Brilliant posts! Cam, I appreciate your Wikipedia citation because another pastor tried that godhead=trinity garbage with me too. I told him “no go”!
Robyn, with all due respect, I sort of have to wonder how well founded someone is in the scriptures if they have to post links to other websites even supposedly their own, which “explain the trinity”. We don't rely on links to explain Biblical doctrine, we go to the Bible itself. Since the word trinity, triune, God the Son is even in the Bible nor were these doctrines ever taught by anyone in the Bible, I have to believe they were ADDED.
We have no right to add to God's word and the book of Revelation as well as Paul says this. As soon as you begin trusting the traditions of men over what the Bible actually says, you are in trouble.
The Lord Jesus said to love God the Father will all our heart soul, mind and strength. No one can split their affection between three so called co-equal, co-eternal beings. It's just impossible and not what the Bible teaches. Its gotten so bad that people just see Jesus as God and don't even bother praying to the Father as Jesus instructed us to do.
Most here also love the Lord Jesus and because we do, we show it by obeying what he says, not some church “fathers” who were not inspired writers of the Bible. Jesus said that true worshippers would worship THE FATHER in spirit and truth. [John 4:21]. Doesn't say the trinity, doesn't even say worship Jesus although we can. Hope you stay around.
Bless you,
Semmy
Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 16 2006,01:16) I think what is happening is you are confused on who is Jesus Christ. There is only one God as the Holy Bible. Deuteronomy 6:4….Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! The Holy Bible tells us of God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit of God. We also know that there are not three God’s, they are One.
Jesus Christ represents the body of God. Christ is God in the physical form. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. He is the very communication of God, and the revelation of God to man.
I hope this helps your confusion. I will pray for you.
Robyn, you are right…. there is a great deal of confusion here at this forum. Unfortunately it is dominated by anti-trinitarians who are, indeed, confused. Keep fighting the good fight!blessings
Quote (Robyn † @ Aug. 16 2006,01:42) I think I'm in trouble in this Forum. I just realized that both of you guys are Administrators. I may have accidently joined this forum. I did not know what type of forum this was. I thought it was about sharing the gospel with one another. I do sincerely apologize. I hope you do not take offense in my replies. I'm sorry if I upset you guys.
I am not an Administrator, at least not here… though I have been for the past 7 or 8 years …. at any rate, you haven't upset me in the least! lol
It is a bit disconcerting though, I imagine, to join a site called “heaven.net” where there are so many people apparently not going to heaven for being antichrist, by denying the deity of the Son… such an insult to Jesus!! But hang in there Robyn… places like this can be useful for driving you to the Scriptures in order to find out the truth about God! Some of my best times of growth came early on in my walk when I seriouslly considered becoming a Jehovah's Witness…. I attended many meetings, and really looked seriously at whether or not Jesus was God… thankfully the Lord spared me from being decieved by that dangerous cult! Unfortunately there are many others, besides the JWs, who deny the non-negotiable you-are-lost-in-your-sins-if-you-deny-it beliefs like the Trinity. I like the way an early Creed put it:“Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic [universal,1] faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally.
Now the catholic [universal] faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic [universal] religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the Godhead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.
This is the catholic [universal] faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.
1. apostolic/universal (The Athanasian Creed)
This says it so well, don't you think? It's rather sad that we have to continue to battle against heretics who deny these cardinal doctrines, and have to reinvent the wheel for them over and over again. Ah well… you know the Lord Jesus said that there will always be tares in with the wheat, and that antichrists will come and go…. we just need to keep trusting in God and His Holy Word.
blessings to you
Robyn… I hate that there is no edit feature here! lol… when I said I was an Administrator in the above post, I did not mean here!! Heaven (and heaven.net!! lol!!!) forbid! lol!!
Being an Admin at another forum has been invaluable to me, btw, in defending the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints, against heresies like that which abounds here, ie denying the Trinity and denying salvation by grace through faith alone (ie returning to a Roman Catholic mixture and perversion of the gospel)….. Having defended these biblical trruths so many times against heresies like that which seems to flourish here, has, however, been a great source of security to me…. that the truth can stand up to any of it's attackers…. anyways… just wanted to clarify….blessings
blessings
This is one of the mysteries of God. If you have a look at Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.This tells us that the Word was with God (that's 2)
And the Word was God (singular)So it seems to me reasonable to see that although God is One, He is also two.
And then there's this verse.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.So we have Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Hey Robyn…. just checked out your home page…. I attended a Univ. just down the road a bit from you, at Indiana Univ. at South Bend. (I also still live just an hour or so east of the mighty golden dome and the touchdown Jesus!! Lol) ….
While there at IUSB I had the awesome privilege of meeting and being taught by a gentleman who was getting his PhD in Philosophy from Notre Dame…. he was just a brilliant guy… he had nearly completed his PhD in medicine while living in Fresno …. he has now completed both programs and has PhD's in medicine/psychiatry and philosophy, only the 8th person to simultaneously hold both PhD's if I remember correctly, he is a “para docs” 😉 ….. anyways… when he read a book (God, Freedom and Evil) by the head of the philosophy dept, Alvin Plantinga (he is still there isn't he?) He was so impressed by the book that he and his wife picked up stakes and moved to South Bend so that he could study under Plantinga, and his wife got her PhD in Psychiatry from Notre Dame as well.
Anyway, it was interesting on many levels to become close friends with him, one thing was that surprised me right away was that he was not Roman Catholic! Another is that neither is/was the head of the Philosophy dept! lol
He was an Evangelical Christian who really helped me learn to think clearly, I took all the logic courses I could from him, as well as picking his brain nearly every night after class… and… he never got sick of me!! As an aside, on a more serious note, you look as if you might do a little too much drinking. You need to be careful about that…. (1 Cor 6:9-10 NASB) Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, {10} nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
Serious business Robyn.
blessings
To epistemaniac ,
Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 19 2006,19:33) It is a bit disconcerting though, I imagine, to join a site called “heaven.net” where there are so many people apparently not going to heaven for being antichrist, by denying the deity of the Son… such an insult to Jesus!!
Um, no one made the judgement that you or anyone else is hell bound.Those who are of God can still actually be influenced by antichrist doctrine. Those who are of God can actually be inside “The Mother of Harlots”. Those who are of God are not perfect, but Christ is doing a good work in them to present his bride without spot or blemish.
However, it is one thing to believe in false doctrine and quite another to teach it. To those who teach falsely, God will hold them responsible for all they lead astray. Even then, that is not enough to say that someone is hell bound.
In the end, if we are building on the true foundation, we will be saved. To those who are saved I say this:
“Do you want to receive rewards for your work, or are you happy for your works to burn down in judgement fire?
If we truly love God, we will build with works of God, silver, and precious stones. To build with straw is reflective of one's love for God.
The good news is that God loves us more than we love him. He saves many because he is merciful.
what you said, t8, was
“But we know that God is not a man and scripture states nowhere that God became a man.
Scripture is very clear about who became a man and it wasn't God, it was the Word. To deny that is antichrist.”
I deny what you say. Therefore, according to you anyway, I am “antichrist”. Where in the Bible does it say that those who's beliefs are (supposedly) “antichrist” will be going to heaven?
blessings
(1 John 2:18-23 NASB) Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour. {19} They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us. {20} But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. {21} I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. {22} Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. {23} Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
(1 John 4:2-3 NASB) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; {3} and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
(2 John 1:7 NASB) For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
None of this sounds especially like a person going to heaven… does it?
t8, you wrote “The Father is the Almighty God. Jesus is the Mighty God and we are gods.”
So… you are actually not a monotheist at all…..??? You are a polytheist…? You must be….
The problem is this, there is only one true God. If Jesus is the Mighty God, He is either the true God or a false God…. which is He t8?
blessings
So by your reasoning, the angels are false gods (or false mighty ones). Israels human judges were false gods (or false mighty ones).
Or perhaps, since God Almighty is the only one that is actually ALL MIGHTY, he is the only one that is truly God, THE mighty one. Sure, there are many mighty ones. But how many in the Bible are described as “almighty God”? There is only one that is clearly described this way.
Quote (LodeRunner @ June 04 2002,23:33) I think you may be drawing inferences from what I said, and if my choice of words led you to understand it like that, I apologize. My core argument is that the doctrine of the Trinity is integral to any belief that salvation can come by believing on Christ.
Central to the argument is a chain of logic based on Biblical law regardin susbsitution and retitution for crimes. I'm at work right now, so I will post again later, using some material from the Heidelberg Catechism (c. 1520's) regarding the legal chain of events. The Catechism was written by two men, one a lawyer and the other a theologian. Together they outline the prinipal logic, legality, and theological proof for Christ's work, and also, as a cogent argument for the legality, they establish the Tinity. There is some very good material, and all (or at least very nearly all of it) is based on texts from the Book of Romans (Paul's Eistle to the Romans, if you so desire the correct & full name), and each question and answer is accompanied by cross-referenced verses from othe parts of the Old and New Testaments.
Back to the original stateent. I did not mean to infer that if you remove Christ from God, that he loses power, that would have been self-defeating. In fact, the title God is pointless unless he is unlimited in every way. That doesn't neccesarily mean that He won't limit Himself for some reason or another.
And I suppose that your return statment is based on your own conception of the Trinity (or lack thereof). In the clearest terms available to me, here is my summation of the trinity:
God the Father, ruler of all, God Almighty, was neither begotten nor Created. He existed before time began.
God the Son is one with the Father, of the same likeness and substance, and yet a seperate person. He was not created, but begotten eternally of the Father. He took on His human body to come to earth as teh saviour.
The Holy Spirit was neither begotten nor created, but proceeding from the Father and the Son eternally.
That is a rapid summation, when I have time, I will post a complete copy of the Athanatian Creed, approximately 2 pages (8.5×11 pages) dedicated to logical statments relating the doctrine of the Trinity. It is in old English, but was written in Latin during the Early Church Age at one of the church councils.
I do not think the info from the Heidelberg Catechism ever got posted:Q12: Since, then, by the righteous judgment of God, we deserve temporal and eternal punishment, how may we escape this punishment and be again received into favor?
A12: God wills that His justice be satisfied;[1] therefore, we must make full satisfaction to that justice, either by ourselves or by another.[2]1. Exod. 20:5; 23:7
2. Rom. 8:3-4Q13: Can we ourselves make this satisfaction?
A13: Certainly not; on the contrary, we daily increase our guilt.[1]1. Job 9:2-3; 15:15-16; Matt. 6:12; 16:26
Q14: Can any mere creature make satisfaction for us?
A14: None; for first, God will not punish any other creature for the sin which man committed;[1] and further, no mere creature can sustain the burden of God's eternal wrath against sin [2] and redeem others from it.1. Heb. 2:14-18
2. Psa. 130:3Q15: What kind of mediator and redeemer, then, must we seek?
A15: One who is a true [1] and righteous man,[2] and yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is also true God.[3]1. I Cor. 15:21-22, 25-26
2. Jer. 33:16; Isa. 53:11; II Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7:15-16
3. Isa. 7:14; Heb. 7:26Quote Q14: Can any mere creature make satisfaction for us?
A14: None; for first, God will not punish any other creature for the sin which man committed;[1] and further, no mere creature can sustain the burden of God's eternal wrath against sin [2] and redeem others from it.The above proposition makes no sense in light of the Garden of Eden scenario.
Here we fine Adam and Eve placed in a garden and subjected to a test by God, which they failed. How do we know that Adam and Eve were capable of passing that test? Perhaps the test was expecting too much? The only way that God could show that he was just in dealing with Adam and Eve the way indicated, would be to subject someone else of equal standing to the same test that Adam and Eve failed. This He did by sending His only begotten son, Christ Jesus; who was the second Adam. Christ triumphed under the same test where Adam and Eve failed, being obedient even unto death.
God is now vindicated, as it has been shown that the man Christ Jesus who was made like His brethren (Hebrews 2:17) tempted in all points (Hebrews 4:15) like Adam and Eve, and us for that matter, was able to respond in keeping with God's will. God was not asking too much of Adam an Eve. The expectation was not unrealistic, hence the penalty for failure was not unjust.
Since Christ is an equivalent representative, He was able to offer, as an act of love, His life as the ransom price (Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45, 1 Timothy 2:6) and gain our release from Sin. Christ could not satisfy the conditions if he was half God and half man as some would have us believe.
The offering of Christ's life to redeem us, is not about appeasing a wrathful God but rather the ultimate demostration of God's love toward us, “For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” ((John 3:16).
Elidad
Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 19 2006,21:23) t8, you wrote “The Father is the Almighty God. Jesus is the Mighty God and we are gods.” So… you are actually not a monotheist at all…..??? You are a polytheist…? You must be….
The problem is this, there is only one true God. If Jesus is the Mighty God, He is either the true God or a false God…. which is He t8?
blessings
It's quite simple epistemaniac.God the Father is the only true God means that all came from him, even Christ, just as Satan is the god of this age and all lies and murder come from him.
You believe that there is one God the Father and that Christ came from him don't you?
If we assume that all other gods are false gods, then is this next verse asking false gods to worhip the true God?
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods/(elohim)!BTW: I worship the Father as the true God.
I take it that you worship 3 as the true God?
Who is the polytheist?Hi ,
Jn 10.34f
“34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in (A)your (B)Law, 'ÂI SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?35″If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36do you say of Him, whom the Father (D)sanctified and (E)sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, '(F)I am the Son of God'?”
If Jesus was God
in what sense would God
have to be sanctified by God
before he was sent into the world?
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