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Hi e,
“Precisely how it is that this “totality of the very essence of deity” permanently “dwells” in him, Paul specifies by the Greek adverb σωµατικῶς, sōmatikōs. Some scholars suggest that the word means “essentially” or “really” (as over against “symbolically”; see the contrast in 2:17 between “shadow” and “reality” [σῶµα, sōma]), but much more likely it means “bodily,” that is, “in bodily form,” indicating that the mode or manner in which the permanent abode of the full plenitude of deity in Jesus is to be understood is in incarnational terms. In short, Paul intends to say that in Jesus we have to do with the very “embodiment” or incarnation of deity. Christ is God “manifest in the flesh” (1 Tim. 3:16). Here we have the Pauline equivalent to the Johannine “the Word became flesh” (John 1:14). Finally, to underscore Jesus’ uniqueness as such, Paul throws the “in him” forward in the sentence to the position of emphasis, implying by this, against his opponents’ claim that “fullness” could be found elsewhere, that “in him [and nowhere else]” permanently resides in bodily form the very essence of deity!”
So say again.
Jesus dwells in Jesus?
ummHi E,
You say
“:He was indeed the “only begotten God” ( John 1:18 “True
So monogenes relates to derivation and so how come God was derived and who from?
God?Hey Nick, Elidad & Cam,
Thought I'd jump in here but you guys are doing great! I've seen this “cut n' paste” verbosity
E-Maniac is trying to pull done before by people who really don't know what they are talking about.
They have to depend on tomes of copied books and documents to smoke screen their way through
a debate. Quite obvious.All of you guys succinctly extract the main points and comment on those. Beautiful! Elidad,
I'd like to check out that book by that ex-trinitarian. He is right. The obvious twisting of
scripture, ignoring contradicting verses and slight of hand shows right through!Cam, I'm so sorry but the woman was not worthy of you! Your beliefs are between YOU and God. No one has the right to impose something like that on anyone else. Jesus also said they would throw you out of their synogogues. That's happened to many of us or we simply left because Satan made it impossible for us to stay. Ask God our Father to help you heal. This was a rough test but YOU PASSED IT!
Bless everybody here,
Semmy
Quote (Elidad @ Aug. 09 2006,15:00) Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 09 2006,05:34) … i just want to share this with you, this probably wont mean anything to anyone but the girl that i was going to marry changed her mind on me because i dont believe in the trinity, if i believed in the trinity we would get married, i would do anything to be with this girl and all i would have to do is say that i believe in the trinity… i cant do it…. ive wanted to and ive tried but if i do that then i feel like im betraying and disowning the one true god jehovah… after all of this research and studying ive done i feel like i really know the truth and now i am compelled to follow it, ive prayed about it so many times and my heart is telling me that i have found the truth and i cannot turn my back on it… but it kills me to know that i am probably going to lose my wife in all of this…
Hi Cam, Your stand is admirable indeed. It would seem that for such you have placed yourself in good standing with the Lord, if what we read in Matthew 19:29 is any consolation;“Every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
May you be truly blessed for your integrity of heart .
Elidad
Hi Elidad:Glad you're sticking around.
And I second your motion to Cam.
seminarian,Aug. wrote:[/quote]
Hi Semmy, If you are interested in chasing up that book by Greg S Deuble, you can pick it up from here: http://orders.koorong.com.au/search/details.jhtml?code=0967324955
which is where I obtained my copy from, after it was drawn to my attention by a friend.If you want to be put off from reading the book, go here: http://puritanbelief.blogspot.com/ the Puritan Belief site.
I would suggest that you read the book yourself, and form your own judgement, based on your knowledge of the Scriptures overall.
I think you will have enough wisdom to see through the comments made on the Puritan WEB site, and all those they have appended, that come from others of a sympathetic viewpoint.
Happy reading
Elidad
By Typ:
Quote 1) If Jesus is not God, how is it that He fulfilled (Is. 7:14; Matt. 1:22, 23) being God with us? 2) If Jesus is not God, how is it that God purchased the church with His own blood? (Acts 20:28)
3) If Jesus is not Yahweh Elohim, then how did John the Baptist and Jesus fulfill Mal. 3:1; Is. 40:1-3; Is. 35:1-7; Luke 3:3-6; Matt. 11:2-6
4) How is He Yahweh our Righteousness? (Jer. 23:5,6)
5) How is He (Jesus/Yahushua) Yahweh our salvation? (Is. 12:1-6; Matt.1:21; John 4:10-14, John 7:37-39).Jesus Christ is Yahweh Elohim in the flesh and except we believe that He is He, we shall die in our sins (John 8:24) because we must believe in who He is to have life through His name (John 20:28-31).
Hi Typ:
1. I am hoping you have children and if so, that you gave much thought into giving them their names. Emmanuel was given us to let us know that our God is with us, not that he himself came to be born as a baby. Have you not read that he gave and sent his son ….? The information is conveyed in Matthew 1 and Luke 1.
Besides where in scripture does it tell us that Almighty God becomes his own creation and was killed by his creation? who resurrected him? Can he who is immortal dwelling in unapproachable light be killed or die?
2. Brother Woutlaw posted something in response to that which is worth taking a look at. Perhaps a search on that verse would bring it up. I shall amend this with that link if I find it.
3. Who did JTB – John The Baptist – say that Jesus is? Did the Father's testimony agree with JTB's? Yes.
Secondly, Malachi 3:1 means to say that the Messenger of the Covenant came to YHWH's temple… the confirmation of this translation lies in the fact that Jesus drove the merchants out of his Father's temple. He never claimed the temple to be his own. Moreover, Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of that Temple which builder is God of which we are living stones. Jesus and his body therefore make up the Temple of God. Meditate on this and see how it clarifies Malachi 3:1 and puts it into focus.Now as far as JTB preparing the way of the Lord:
Luke 1:67-80 would hopefully help you see the big picture of the Father and and how Jesus and JTB fit in it, which is entirely consist with the truth that God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, yesterday, today and forever.
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. Right?
Also, I don't quite get the point of your reference to Is 35:1-7. Please clarify.
Additionally, Is 61:1f and Luke 4:17f reveal that the anointing Jesus had to do those things is from the Father. These are the lowest common denominators/principles … unless you can show us even more basic principles of foundation.
4. The subject of Jesus being our salvation is a provision of the Father, the giver of all good gifts and Father of all. Please see the thread titled Matt 1:21 within the first few pages. It should be under ?Truth Or Tradition.
Hi,
This is from Oxy's site“I believe in Father, The Word (who became Jesus) and Holy Spirit, being all parts of the one God
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one”Sadly it appears he has been deceived by the false rendering of KJV 1 jn 5.7
And then we see Jesus WITH God as the Word
“Jesus was in the beginning, with God. He wasn't known as Jesus in the beginning, but rather, as the Word of God. John 1 gives this account:”
So Oxy please explain how this Word who was WITH God is still a part of God.
Do you not believe he is the only begotten SON of God?
Is that just an empty title ?LOL i just had the most funny thing happen to me… i was talking to some baptist guy who works at a college listen to this… your going to laugh…
Psalm 8:5-6
5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings [a]
and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands;
you put everything under his feet:ahhah the guy said that this was talking about man himself and not jesus…. wow i was laughing so hard… especially when 1 Corinthians 15:27 says the same thing about putting everything under his feet… lol i was just wondering if you guys could find all the verses that talks about putting everything under jesus's feet because psalm 8:5 is OBVIOUSLY talking about jesus… truly amazing…. the guy is telling me that im basing my beliefs in a “doctrinal standpoint” of jehovahs witnesses… when my arguements had nothing to do with JWs, just what the bible was saying… the guy was completely ignorant and he says that the early church fathers always taught the trinity and that the only reason why they say the trinity was brought up in 180 AD was because before that the apostles and jesus and everyone already knew the nature of god and how hes 3 beings in one and that the only reason why the creed was developed so late was because before then there was no conflicting view of it… AHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAH…
lol the guy also told me that i cannot fully come to the conclusion i did with few knowledge on greek text… wow what an idiot, whats the point of the countless translations then if i cant understand the bible without learning greek… ohh i cant wait to hear u what guys have to say about all of this lol
Hi cam,
The deceived often hide behind a smokescreen of intellectual superiority.But
The salvation message is for children and not eggheads.
Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 11 2006,03:41) LOL i just had the most funny thing happen to me… i was talking to some baptist guy who works at a college listen to this… your going to laugh… Psalm 8:5-6
5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings [a]
and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands;
you put everything under his feet:ahhah the guy said that this was talking about man himself and not jesus…. wow i was laughing so hard… especially when 1 Corinthians 15:27 says the same thing about putting everything under his feet… lol i was just wondering if you guys could find all the verses that talks about putting everything under jesus's feet because psalm 8:5 is OBVIOUSLY talking about jesus… truly amazing…. the guy is telling me that im basing my beliefs in a “doctrinal standpoint” of jehovahs witnesses… when my arguements had nothing to do with JWs, just what the bible was saying… the guy was completely ignorant and he says that the early church fathers always taught the trinity and that the only reason why they say the trinity was brought up in 180 AD was because before that the apostles and jesus and everyone already knew the nature of god and how hes 3 beings in one and that the only reason why the creed was developed so late was because before then there was no conflicting view of it… AHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAH…
Way to go Cam!Take a look at Hebrews 2 also. Hope your friend is able to receive in light of the evidence.
Hebrews 2:5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”*For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 10 2006,19:41) i was just wondering if you guys could find all the verses that talks about putting everything under jesus's feet because psalm 8:5 is OBVIOUSLY talking about jesus…
Hi Cam, Perhaps these were th references you had in mind:
Ps 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Ps 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
La 3:34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.Perhaps we should be praying for your contact rather than think of him in terms of being an “idiot” or an “egghead” ? Can we not become smug in our understandings when look down on the ignorant?
Be of good cheer
Elidad
yeah when i was talking to him to try and show him the verses of the bible i was praying to jehovah at the same time and i really got this feeling that i should not bother with this guy anymore… something was telling me jehovah is keeping his eyes shut for a reason…
Hi ,
When I say eggheads I mean the so called WISE of this world and the Spirit through Paul has quite a bit to say about them and their ignorance.1Cor 1
“22For indeed (A)Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;23but we preach [a](B)Christ crucified, ©to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles (D)foolishness,
24but to those who are (E)the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ (F)the power of God and (G)the wisdom of God.
25Because the (H)foolishness of God is wiser than men, and (I)the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For consider your (J)calling, brethren, that there were (K)not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27but (L)God has chosen the foolish things of (M)the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of (N)the world to shame the things which are strong,
28and the base things of (O)the world and the despised God has chosen, (P)the things that are not, so that He may (Q)nullify the things that are,
29so that ®no man may boast before God.
30But by His doing you are in (S)Christ Jesus, who became to us (T)wisdom from God, and (U)righteousness and (V)sanctification, and (W)redemption,
31so that, just as it is written, “(X)LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
Ch 2
1And when I came to you, brethren, I (A)did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you (B)the [a]testimony of God.
2For I determined to know nothing among you except ©Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.3I was with you in (D)weakness and in (E)fear and in much trembling,
4and my message and my preaching were (F)not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of (G)the Spirit and of power,
5so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on (H)the power of God.
6Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are (I)mature; a wisdom, however, not of (J)this age nor of the rulers of (K)this age, who are (L)passing away;
7but we speak God's wisdom in a (M)mystery, the hidden wisdom which God (N)predestined before the (O)ages to our glory;
8the wisdom (P)which none of the rulers of (Q)this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified ®the Lord of glory;
9but just as it is written,
“(S)THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”10(T)For to us God revealed them (U)through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the (V)depths of God.
11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the (W)spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12Now we (X)have received, not the spirit of (Y)the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13which things we also speak, (Z)not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14But a (AA)natural man (AB)does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are (AC)foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15But he who is (AD)spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16For (AE)WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But (AF)we have the mind of Christ.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 10 2006,03:59) Hi,
This is from Oxy's site“I believe in Father, The Word (who became Jesus) and Holy Spirit, being all parts of the one God
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one”Sadly it appears he has been deceived by the false rendering of KJV 1 jn 5.7
And then we see Jesus WITH God as the Word
“Jesus was in the beginning, with God. He wasn't known as Jesus in the beginning, but rather, as the Word of God. John 1 gives this account:”
So Oxy please explain how this Word who was WITH God is still a part of God.
Do you not believe he is the only begotten SON of God?
Is that just an empty title ?
Gee thanks for the positive uplifting comment Nick. Out of all of the stuff on my site you have to pluck something out that you don't agree with and then have the ordacity to call me deceived.Jesus is still the Word of God (Rev 19:13). I have no problems with seeing Him as the Son of God, but also part of the Godhead.
Loosen up!!!!
Ho Oxy,
Are you not willing to show from the Word that what you teach is according to the words of the Master?
You are teaching falsely if you teach
what is not written
as if it is.
Trinity is a theory about God and is not taught in the bible.
It is not written.god head you say…
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Godhead_%28Christianity%29
However, the word “Godhead” is itself a word that simply means “godhood” and, thus, it is erroneous to use it as synonymous with the English word “trinity.”im sorry but please dont use that word as proof of the trinity because all encyclopedias agree that the term is erroneous when using it in that sense… i think that should clear things up
now that came out wrong…. sigh.
I'll try it again. Ahh, whatever. you know what I mean. You guys get so screwed up with technicalities… you really need to get a life.
Hi Oxy,
The nature of God is not a technicality.
It is a very serious matter.
Should we speculate about things like this?Because we fear God should we risk His anger
by theorising beyond revelation
and then teaching that as doctrine
of equal veracity as His scriptures??Bringing God down to be equal with His Son is possibly insulting to Him.
Then bringing Him down further to be equal with men???
God instead has elevated His Son to functional equality with Himself and we can be also of the family of God in him.
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