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Quote (Jill @ Aug. 02 2006,21:58) Hey camrezaie ….don't even try. I think this is a closed forum. Anotherwords…if we say anything different…we will be banned. I think it is best for us to leave.
Boy have you missed it!!!!!
Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 02 2006,22:01) jill what are u talking about
I don't know. I'm new here too. I just joined yesterday. I know I got a friendly PM basically saying that this Forum was created by people that do no believe in the Trinity Doctorine. I think it was a friendly warning.lol… so what? who says u have to listen to what anyone is saying; how about just listening to what the scriptures are saying… basically what the person told you is to not listen to the word of imperfect man… well then how about you go ahead and take your own advice and not listen to the word of man also or in otherwords a CREED/DOCTRINE. after all the bible says:
1 John 4:1
Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.Psalm 146:3
3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles,
Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.Matthew 15:3-9
3 In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion,Quote (Jill @ Aug. 02 2006,20:39) Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 02 2006,17:01) Hi Jill, Actually, I told you what sort of Forum this was in the first line of my post. These people
read their Bibles……throughly. Many of us also are familiar with the original Hebrew, Aramaic
and Greek languages that the Bible was translated from.So you will not be able to make scripturally unqualified statements such as, “Jesus is God
in human flesh” without being corrected by what the Bible itself says about who Jesus is.
I don't have all the answers either nor is my reasoning infallible. However, that which I DO
know, I will share. For Paul said to “expose those who contradict”, [Titus 1:9].What you wrote contradicted what God's Holy Word said about His Son. This was done out of love for God our Father, Christ and you!
Now that I've hopefully clarified that, would you like to actually respond to any of the
scriptures I provided in my post which define who our Lord Jesus is? My experience is
when people can not discuss what was posted with scripture, they tend to want to
talk about everything else.
Bless you much!
Semmy
I'm glad you have absolute truth.
Hi Jill,Well, can you absolutely refute anything I said with the appropriate scriptures from the Bible? Yep. That's what I thought.
Bless you,
Semmy
Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 02 2006,21:47) lol epistemaniac, i dont understand a word your saying… i was laughing the entire time reading it… but the thing is were not talking about comparing what an atheist and a theist believes… the fact is that whether you believe in the trinity or not your a theist… which subjects you to following what the bible says.. not let me ask this question to theists, what good has the trinity done for any religion? is it going to save you from eternal destruction just because you believe in it? what has the trinity done for religion in general? it has DEFINITELY and UNDOUBTEDLY caused many conflicts and division among the church… im going to do what the scriptures say in romans and judge based on the “fruits” of the trinity and the people who created it, the fruits of the trinity are division, the bible is clearly against this… and that is absolutely why im not going to put my faith into some document that was influenced by imperfect men… end of story…
do you often laugh at what you don't understand? thats not funny, its sad….. neither does that does seem especially conducive to learning….
but then again, now that you have put in 350+ ( !!! whoop dee do) hours, well…. you must be the expert and have nothing left to learn….
of course by that reasoning, someone who put in 400+ hours would be right lol….. IOW, you may have studied for 350+ hours, it just happens to also be the case that you have been wrong for that same length of time in regard to the doctrine of the Trinity!! lol….
the thing is, since you were unable to grasp the informal fallacy you were committing when I wrote about atheists reasoning in the same way as you do, you have much left to learn young padawan……
but… here is the point again, as simply as I can put it…. maybe this time you will get it, I don't know, now that you already know everything, just like many other 18 year olds, it may not be possible…. but… here we go again…
you are saying that a reason to deny the Trinity is because there have been “divisions” over the doctrine… ok… fine…. well if this was a valid line of reasoning, then any number of other doctrines would have to be wrong as well, simply based on the fact that people have disagreed about the doctrines… do you understand? the question simply is whether or not the doctrine is true, period……
because, based on the “divisions” alone argument it is just as easy for me to say that it is cilts like the JW's and other Arian anti-trinitarian groups that are causing the divisions…..
and so if I applied your argument (reductio ad absurdum), it would be self referentially false, due to YOUR being wrong based on the existence of divisions in the church created by persons denying the Trinity, and, I would be wrong based on the fact that affirming the Trinity has also caused divisions, as far as the minority of the church at various times is concerned….. thus, the existence of division alone cannot be a determinitive factor in deciding the truth of this or that doctrine….. logic 101….
blessings
Quote (camrezaie @ Aug. 02 2006,22:13) lol… so what? who says u have to listen to what anyone is saying; how about just listening to what the scriptures are saying… basically what the person told you is to not listen to the word of imperfect man… well then how about you go ahead and take your own advice and not listen to the word of man also or in otherwords a CREED/DOCTRINE. after all the bible says: 1 John 4:1
Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.Psalm 146:3
3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles,
Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.Matthew 15:3-9
3 In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion,
You are absolutely right. I'm not the smartest girl around..but I do try and I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and try to gain wisdom through the Holy Bible.Maybe it was pure fate..but the two topics I commented on in this Forum…was against everyones beliefs in here. That was basically two strikes in a row.
I think I will do more reading than commenting in here.
hey Jill…. I am a Trinitarian, or… as I like to put it… a “biblical Christian” 😉 and I haven't been kicked out of here yet…. but you are right, the site is run by non-trinitarians….. and they may be in the majority here…. buts thats ok… truth isn't ever determined by counting noses is it? 😉
blessings
lol a cult…. funny… the bible says a man reaps what he sows.. go ahead and keep reaping all the lies you want haha.. every piece of literature that you trinitarians produce to discredit jehovahs witnesses is full of absolute lies, about 5% of it all is true in what u say we believe and what we teach… when have jehovahs witnesses come out with literature that degrades and spits upon the name of other organizations? lol if these are your people then by all means continue you follow them, god does not approve of this, however.. and thats pretty ignorant of you to say that jws are a cult… do you even know the definition of a cult?
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
lol “generally”… ahha how many followers do you think jesus had? the “general” opinion of the population was obvious since they did not listen or follow jesus, he only had a 120 apostles… go ahead follow the tradition of man and multitudes of people who are listening to a creed when the bible says few find the path to righteousness because the path is narrow… haha hilarious, i wouldnt consider the number of people who follow some doctrine to be “few”… anyways back to the definition of a cult, what proof do u have that we live in an unconventional manner? we live normal lives, we go to public school, we have normal jobs, we associate with normal people everyday, i am studying to be a chemical engineer at SLU, i dont consider this to be living an unconventional life and i dont think anyone else would… and for under the guidance of an authorative charismatic leader, uhhhhhhh our kingdom halls are not under any authority of a leader; however, the eldest people in each kingdom hall take care of most of the talking… lol wait a minute wouldnt that make the pope and catholocism a cult…. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!! ignorance is bliss my friend…
and since one priest/pastor heads your churches wouldnt that make YOU guys a cult?… THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK AND LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF THINGS BEFORE YOU TYPE IT OUT AND MAKE A FOOL OF YOUR SELF!!!!!!!!!!!
Uh, Camrezaie,
My mom is a JW and I've read their stuff for years. In their literature it refers to anyone who is not a member of their group, (no matter if they also denounce the trinity), as part of Babylon the Great, Christiandom, the Great Harlot. Sound familiar?
They also TEACH that every other pastor outside of the JW's, no matter what that person believes, is serving Satan. This is nothing new. The Mormons preach the same thing. A cult is defined as a group centered around a man or a group of men's teachings. They also claim special revelation from God and to speak exclusively for him. Sound familiar? Now be honest. Does the name Charles Taze Russell ring a bell also? What about Franz and Rutherford? What about the Bethel 10 over there is Brooklyn whose word is LAW to you guys? So what, you have 10 priests or popes.
I've been there my friend and had I known about the losers that started that group, I wouldn't have wasted my time. You'd do better defending the Gospel than trying to stick up for a man-made organization. I don't care what they say about themselves. “Faithful and discreet slave…blah blah”.
Yeah, Jesus said if you lie you are showing who your father is…that's Satan. JW's try to excuse telling lies as “Theocratic Warfare”. Is that why Peter repented for lying that he didn't know our Lord?
Hey, those people “weren't entitled to know the truth”! Uh huh.Now, don't get me wrong. Not EVERYTHING you guys believe is in error but you have to understand that C.T. Russell is quoted as saying this was NEVER meant to be a religious denomination. It was and still is a Bible publishing house, nothing more.
So salvation does not come from being a member of God's Visible Organization, placing literature, doing at least 10 hours in field service a month, denouncing holidays, etc. It comes with accepting the free gift of eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord and actually following what HE says, not the Brooklyn 10 my friend. Oh boy…..
Bless you all the same,
Semmy
semmy… I can't believe it… I agree with your last post, therefore, you must be right!! lol….
blessings, Ken
Quote the fact is, I have witnessed to JW's many times, and visited the Kingdom Hall for services etc…. and if you look at the issue in terms of “confusion” or disagreement” I, as a Trinitarian, might well say that it is all the non or anti Trinitarians who have generated all the confusion and disagreement… what would you think of that line of reasoning in so far as disproving JW doctrine of any kind? I am betting you would not find it very convincing. And that is what I think when I look at this objection, it's not very convincing as a proof for or against the doctrine of the Trinity. Hi Epy.
First, is it true that you are a Calvanist? Does this mean that you follow Calvin's beliefs?
“if you look at the issue in terms of confusion or disagreement,” you say that it is the non-trinitarians that have generated this confusion.
Listen, that's just not true. The pope himself is confused over this one. It's a “mystery.” Mystery's, by nature, are confusing. Over and over again, scholars and religionists have explained how hard it is to explain the trinity. There is a reason for this. It's hard to explain a mystery that's been described as “unexplainable.”
Yet, you assert that it is those who don't believe in the trinity that are the cause of confusion. I've talked to a lot of people I've met in the ministry about the trinity. And if there is anyone that is confused, it is … most everyone. Coincidentally, most everyone believes in the trinity.Those who decide to go against the crowd of deceived humanity (Rev 12:9) almost always have very definite reasons for believing what they do.
Interestingly, the great majority of people who believe in the trinity simply don't have a clue, except for the occasional person that has heard something about John 1:1. And for those who actually believe the trinty and are considered learned and schooled in it, they have been taught that it is better not to discuss it–after all, it is a mystery.
david.
Quote My mom is a JW and I've read their stuff for years. In their literature it refers to anyone who is not a member of their group, (no matter if they also denounce the trinity), as part of Babylon the Great, Christiandom, the Great Harlot. Sound familiar? Hi Camrezaie, you might want to disregard everything Semmy says. He tends to state false information freely, sometimes obvious lies. Some of it's just beyond crazy what he says. (See JW thread) He has a talent for finding lies on those tabloid internet sites without questioning them or doing any real research.
Just as a matter of clarity, it is “Christendom,” not Christiandom, and JW's do not believe that this word is synonymous with Babylon the Great or the Great Harlot. It makes up a part of Babylon the Great. Obviously, JW's don't believe that everyone who is not one of JW's is a part of Christendom .
Semmy has so many little mistakes like this in his past threads, it makes me wonder if he was asleep for those years where he claims to have fellowshipped with Jehovah's Witnesses.david
Quote (Scott @ Aug. 02 2006,13:51) Come Eli dont give up that quickly! Nick, I think you may have lost Elli because of the “firing statements” way that your last post is written. It is hard to respond to something that doesnt really have a question but has many statements.
Hi Scott, Guess it is not a case of giving up quickly, but rather a matter of trimming one's sails, when there is an ill wind blowing. .Find it impossible to discuss with someone, who, rather than answer questions, twists and turns like someone trying to dodge through traffic. It is easy to appear wise when you set up a smoke screen of verbage, that says nothing in particular, making it impossible for anyone to build a rational and clear framework of understanding.
At such point, shaking of the dust off ones feet, would seem to be the only sensible thing to do?
Have a great day.
Elidad:)
Hi Elidad,
I agree with Scott. Just go through it slowly and fire any questions you like as we need your contributions.Hi Eli,
All I ask is that you speak the language of scripture to dissect the true meaning. Scripture must be compared to scripture.
You say:“Let's take the first statement, “Jesus was the outward appearance of God?”. You say this is not Scriptural.”
As soon as men start introducing partial parallelisms to substitute for scriptural terms some truth is lost. We are in the business of preserving truth and so I appeal for the use of the words that are used in the bible to compare verse with verse.
An “outward appearance” is not necessarily an “image”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2006,09:10) Hi Eli,
All I ask is that you speak the language of scripture to dissect the true meaning. Scripture must be compared to scripture.
You say:“Let's take the first statement, “Jesus was the outward appearance of God?”. You say this is not Scriptural.”
As soon as men start introducing partial parallelisms to substitute for scriptural terms some truth is lost. We are in the business of preserving truth and so I appeal for the use of the words that are used in the bible to compare verse with verse.
An “outward appearance” is not necessarily an “image”
Hi Nick, I reluctantly make this response. Honestly I think you are doing nothing more than playing with words, and resting on pedantics for your point of view.I am still waiting for you to tell me what it does mean, when we read that we are made in God's image, and that Christ is in the image of God and my son is the image of me.
Let's stick to the point, and stop beating about the bush
.The way the discussion has been going, we are getting very close to breaching this directive from Paul to Timothy:
2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
Peace to you.
Elidad
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