The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
Try here
Ps 31
” A Psalm of David.
1(A)In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge;
Let me never (B)be ashamed;
ÂIn Your righteousness deliver me.
2(D)Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly;
Be to me a (E)rock of strength,
A stronghold to save me.
3For You are my rock and (F)my fortress;
For (G)Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.
4You will (H)pull me out of the net which they have secretly laid for me,
For You are my (I)strength.
5(J)Into Your hand I commit my spirit;
You have (K)ransomed me, O LORD, (L)God of truth.
6I hate those who (M)regard vain idols,
But I (N)trust in the LORD.
7I will (O)rejoice and be glad in Your lovingkindness,
Because You have (P)seen my affliction;
You have known the troubles of my soul,
8And You have not (Q)given me over into the hand of the enemy;
You have set my feet in a large place.
9Be gracious to me, O LORD, for ÂI am in distress;
My (S)eye is wasted away from grief, (T)my soul and my body also.
10For my life is spent with (U)sorrow
And my years with sighing;
My (V)strength has failed because of my iniquity,
And (W)my body has wasted away.
11Because of all my adversaries, I have become a (X)reproach,
Especially to my (Y)neighbors,
And an object of dread to my acquaintances;
Those who see me in the street flee from me.
12I am (Z)forgotten as a dead man, out of mind;
I am like a broken vessel.
13For I have heard the (AA)slander of many,
(AB)Terror is on every side;
While they (AC)took counsel together against me,
They (AD)schemed to take away my life.
14But as for me, I trust in You, O LORD,
I say, “(AE)You are my God.”
15My (AF)times are in Your hand;
(AG)Deliver me from the hand of my enemies and from those who persecute me.
16Make Your (AH)face to shine upon Your servant;
(AI)Save me in Your lovingkindness.
17Let me not be (AJ)put to shame, O LORD, for I call upon You;
Let the (AK)wicked be put to shame, let them (AL)be silent in Sheol.
18Let the (AM)lying lips be mute,
Which (AN)speak arrogantly against the righteous
With pride and contempt.
19How great is Your (AO)goodness,
Which You have stored up for those who fear You,
Which You have wrought for those who (AP)take refuge in You,
(AQ)Before the sons of men!
20You hide them in the (AR)secret place of Your presence from the (AS)conspiracies of man;
You keep them secretly in a shelter from the (AT)strife of tongues.
21(AU)Blessed be the LORD,
For He has made (AV)marvelous His lovingkindness to me in a besieged (AW)city.
22As for me, (AX)I said in my alarm,
“I am (AY)cut off from before Your eyes”;
Nevertheless You (AZ)heard the voice of my supplications
When I cried to You.
23O love the LORD, all you (BA)His godly ones!
The LORD (BB)preserves the faithful
And fully (BC)recompenses the proud doer.
24(BD)Be strong and let your heart take courage,
All you who hope in the LORD.”

[WhatIsTrue]

Beautiful Psalm, Nick, but it doesn't answer the questions I have put to you about your beliefs.

Could you answer those specific questions, please?

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
Bothe the soul and the vessel of Jesus are to be found in the Psalm.
What is it you do not grasp? The soul of the Son of Man?
Mk 14.34, Mt 26.38,Jn 12.27.

Or the vessel aspect?
1Tim 2 20, Lk 4.1,

[Elidad]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2006,16:57)

Hi Elidad, We are very happy to work with you and your excellent gleaned insights, and to walk with you in the hope that we can find agreement. We do prefer pure scriptural insights rather than those that come through men like Mr Buzzard. All such views are also welcome but they will be examined in the light of scripture.

Hi Nick, Greetings. Questions? What do you mean by, “excellent gleaned insights,” and “men like Buzzard”?

Not sure if the first is a derogatry comment or a compliment? What aspects have been “excellent” and what do you consider has been “gleaned”?

As for “men like Buzzard” does this mean you know something about him that is bad?

Also, are you saying that of all the understandings that you have formed, you have never ever been influenced by the writings or teachings of others, it all comes straight from the top of your head?

Lastly, I would certainly hope that you are examining “everthing in light of Scripture”, taking into account the whole counsel of God

Have a good day!

Elidad

[NickHassan]

Hi Eli,
Mr Buzzard is a man. Mr Buzzard's human reflections are of some value but we prefer the pure ore of scripture and when you offer those they are excellent.

[seminarian]

Hi Eli,

I have personally corresponded with Sir Anthony Buzzard and am quite familiar with his beliefs and tactics.  He has provided some insight on the scriptures but as Nick noted, they are of human reflections.  Hardly infallible scripture.  

He is dognmatic and even when shown there could be alternatives to his research, for the sake of pride will seldom admit it.  I've never seen a case of him recanting a belief that was later found to be in error.  He also has little faith in what God's holy spirit can do to teach and guide His children.  Buzzard seems to believe people should skip that and listen to him instead.  I've debated with this man before and because of pride, he REFUSED to let it go.  I told him not to write me anymore but he just kept it up.  I finally had to block his messages!!!  He was BENT on making me believe what HE said.  Now does this sound like someone who is balanced in the scriptures and working in the fullness of God's holy spirit?  I don't care how intelligent someone trys to sound. Look at the fruits people!!!  Sounds like the Mormon and JW way to God to me.  Badger people until they see the Bible the way you want them to.  Uh huh.  

Seen it before, not impressed.

Semmy

[Cubes]

Hi All,

I've missed a lot of posts and hope to catch up gradually.  I just felt to say that there's been a lot of debate over grammar especially of late, definitive articles and such things, which are greek to me indeed!  It's a talent in others that I admire and I see the usefulness of linguistically capturing nuances and such of a particular language.  However, I fail to see how that tells us about God on either side of the debate.  IMO, I believe mathematics is perhaps better suited to that endeavor as numbers and those symbols do not lie and are exacting.

If a detective or private investigator wants to know about someone, does he dwell on a grammatical clause?  No!  he goes and talks to people!  The individual(s) under investigation themselves no doubt, family, friends, neighbors, acquaintances, service providers, co-workers even “enemies”… I believe that what he finds out would determine whether or not there should be a “the” or an “a.”  Whether or not there should be a “he/she/it” or “they/them.”   If he started out from this end, then his investigation should clarify and confirm the right choice of pronoun, article etc.

We know more about God and his Christ through:

What God said about himself
What he said about his son
The flowing narrative of Scripture
What Jesus has said about the Father and of himself
What the prophets and the Apostles have said about each of them
What their friends and enemies have said
What witnesses and others such as gentiles who worshiped creation have said
Even what Satan and the demons say about God and Jesus.  
etc.

We have determined from their accounts that the Father alone is [the Most High] God.  That Jesus lives because of the Father.  He even said as much!

These accounts are what determine the intent of John 1:1 and whether or not there should be a grammatical clause (article, etc).

Now take a look at yourself or consider a loved one.  Does a grammatical clause of any kind begin to articulate who you are…what you like to have for breakfast, your favorite dessert or song, whether or not you like pets, going for walks, etc?  Most limiting, isn't it?  Besides, how are the little children that Jesus loved and drew to himself, supposed to understand all that grammar?

Thus, IMO, I cannot see how such a grammatical clause determines who is who in John 1:1, but I can see how the body of scripture determines which clause (if any), is to be used.  I would definitely say the Word was a God because it is scripturally proven to be so.   And if one never studied any grammar, they'd still understand it; and all the grammar in the world cannot shed light when one misses the testimony and intent of scripture.

Besides, how do we know if John was educated?  And if he was, whether he cared a hoot about grammar?  His intent was to reveal the Son of God and Christ to the world so grammar could not have been his concern.  After all, all of Israel knew that God is God and that Jesus is not him, nor did anyone claim him to be.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
A thoughtful post.
The same people who are fearful of agreeing that the Word was WITH God in the beginning as a divine being
are very happy to agree that Jesus is called “God” as shown in Hebrews 1.7 quoting Psalm 45
and even to claim that he is a deity in his own right.

Indeed the same chapter of Hebrews has all the angels of God worshipping him as such a deity.
Heb 1.6
“Let all the angels of God worship him”
These are not HIS OWN angels but the angels of God.
God's angels do not need to be told to worship their God surely
but this is a right also granted to the Son.

Something smells fishy when you can be a deity
and worshiped as a deity
but yet not be a being in your own right??

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
“2. Are you saying that only Y'shua's flesh died, but he himself did not die?”

From the viewpoint of man his body was dead. He endured the first death fully and his own spirit left him [Matt 27.50].

But the Spirit of God, like all of the gifts of God, are given without repentance [Rom 11.29] and the Spirit of God never left him. He was still alive as the Spirit of Christ and visited those in the earthly prison as 1 Peter tells us. Then he was resurrected.

[Scripture Seeker]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 01 2006,04:36)

Hi cubes, A thoughtful post. The same people who are fearful of agreeing that the Word was WITH God in the beginning as a divine being are very happy to agree that Jesus is called “God” as shown in Hebrews 1.7 quoting Psalm 45 and even to claim that he is a deity in his own right. Indeed the same chapter of Hebrews has all the angels of God worshipping him as such a deity. Heb 1.6 “Let all the angels of God worship him” These are not HIS OWN angels but the angels of God. God's angels do not need to be told to worship their God surely but this is a right also granted to the Son. Something smells fishy when you can be a deity and worshiped as a deity but yet not be a being in your own right??

Hi,

Creation worship the creator, the one creator by nature was One and their is no other! The one Nature is not solitude but three destinct persons…The Father, Son [Word] and Holy Spirit [Breath].

Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:

The Word emptied himself of all glory to partake flesh.
The Father confirms that the Son should still be worshipped even though in a sense he has become like his own creation to save it.

Heb 1:6  And again, when he bringeth in the FIRSTBEGOTTEN INTO THE WORLD, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
You said
“Creation worship the creator, the one creator by nature was One and their is no other! The one Nature is not solitude but three destinct persons…The Father, Son [Word] and Holy Spirit [Breath].”

In fact the reverse is true.

If God did not have a Son then there was solitude.

God is in relationship with His only begotten Son and all creation through him.

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
So kenosis just means emptying oneself of glory. So being made in the likeness of men surely means then that men all naturally have divine powers too?
Your words:
“The Word emptied himself of all glory to partake flesh”.

“The Father confirms that the Son should still be worshipped”
Is there equality when such rights are GIVEN?
Is the Spirit said by God also to be worshiped?

Can a person
be a deity
and not a being??

[Scripture Seeker]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 01 2006,05:08)

Hi SS, You said “Creation worship the creator, the one creator by nature was One and their is no other! The one Nature is not solitude but three destinct persons…The Father, Son [Word] and Holy Spirit [Breath].” In fact the reverse is true. If God did not have a Son then there was solitude. God is in relationship with His only begotten Son and all creation through him.

Hi Nick,

So you don't believe the Son is eternal?
So the Father was not always a Father?
So God is Love and Love is Solitude?

Doesn't make any sense…

The Father has anywas been the Father he doesn't have to wait until he is old enough, mature enough or lonely enough to beget a Son he is who he is eternally, he doesn't change.

Isa 48:11  FOR MINE OWN SAKE, EVEN FOR MINE OWN SAKE, WILL I DO IT: for how should my name be polluted? AND I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY UNTO ANOTHER.
Isa 48:12  Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I AM HE; I AM THE FIRST, I ALSO AM THE LAST.

Joh 17:5  And now GLORIFY THOU ME, O FATHER, WITH THYSELF, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, WITH THEE.

Rev 2:8  And to the angel of the church of Smyrna write: These things saith THE FIRST AND THE LAST, WHO WAS DEAD AND IS ALIVE:

Rev 1:17  And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: FEAR NOT. I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST,
Rev 1:18  AND ALIVE, AND WAS DEAD. And behold I am living for ever and ever and have the keys of death and of hell.

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

We all know “Who” Jesus is, he is a person the SON of God, he is the Saviour.

One question “WHAT” is he my friend? What is his unchanging Nature, this will help me understand where you are comming from
 

I believe One ETERNAL Nature, that never changes! The person BY whom all things where made! His Father is FROM whom all things are made!

The Son is Begotten NOT made, true light from true light…

Joh 1:9  That was the TRUE Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He made the world and the world knew him not

Joh 1:10  He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, AND THE WORLD KNEW HIM NOT.

Blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
You cannot tell me if Jesus truly is the Son of God
because you think
unity means being one conjoint being eternally
and loving is just loving oneself?

Jesus really is the beloved only begotten Son of God who was WITH God in the beginning.
Now you can add in their amazing unity,
which really only is unity
if they were not always one anyway
surely?

[WhatIsTrue]

Nick,

Your answers continue to be interesting, though confusing.

You say:

Quote

From the viewpoint of man his body was dead. He endured the first death fully and his own spirit left him [Matt 27.50]. But the Spirit of God, like all of the gifts of God, are given without repentance [Rom 11.29] and the Spirit of God never left him. He was still alive as the Spirit of Christ and visited those in the earthly prison as 1 Peter tells us. Then he was resurrected.

So, his spirit left him, but he was still a spirit that was able to visit “Hades”?

Elsewhere, you say:

Quote

So here is contrasted the common fate of all men including David Death Corruption of the body Confinement of the soul in Sheol and Hades. With the different fate of Jesus Death Lack of bodily corruption Lack of confimnement in Sheol and Hades and resurrection after three days during which he was alive in the Spirit and preaching to the spirits in prison as in 1 Peter 3.

You say that he was “preaching to the spirits” in “Hades” as a spirit, but I thought that souls were confined to “Hades” – not spirits.  So, which is it?  Are the “souls of the dead” confined to Hades or are the “spirits of the dead” confined to Hades?

Also, where was Y'shua's soul in all of this while he was traveling around as the “Spirit of Christ”?

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
The Spirit of Christ as spoken of in Romans 8, 1 Peter1 and 1 Cor 10 is not the natural spirit of a man. Itis the Holy Spirit of God as resides in Christ and joins all in the body of Christ to him as the head of that body.
Romans 8.1f
“1Therefore there is now no (A)condemnation for those who are (B)in ©Christ Jesus.
2For (D)the law of the Spirit of life in (E)Christ Jesus (F)has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

3For (G)what the Law could not do, (H)weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in (I)the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who (K)do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on (L)the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, (M)the things of the Spirit.

6(N)For the mind set on the flesh is (O)death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind set on the flesh is (P)hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8and those who are (Q)in the flesh cannot please God.

9However, you are not ®in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God (S)dwells in you But (T)if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

10(U)If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of Him who (V)raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (W)He who raised (X)Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [a]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–

13for (Y)if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are (Z)putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14For all who are (AA)being led by the Spirit of God, these are (AB)sons of God.

15For you (AC)have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you (AD)have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “(AE)Abba! Father!”

16The Spirit Himself (AF)testifies with our spirit that we are (AG)children of God,”

Verse 16 applies to Christ too that he had his own spirit which Matt 27.50 he yielded up at death.

Verses 6-11 show that the Spirit of Christ is used interchangeably with the Spirit of God.

Thus too the promise of John 14.23
“we will come to him and make our abode with him” is fulfilled in the Spirit.

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
You say
“You say that he was “preaching to the spirits” in “Hades” as a spirit, but I thought that souls were confined to “Hades” – not spirits. So, which is it? Are the “souls of the dead” confined to Hades or are the “spirits of the dead” confined to Hades?”
Also, where was Y'shua's soul in all of this while he was traveling around as the “Spirit of Christ”?

Christ, like us is body, soul and spirit[1Thess 5]. At death his own spirit left his dead body but his soul was enlivened by the Spirit. He was not held in hades or sheol but visited those emprisoned spirits.

[WhatIsTrue]

Nick wrote:

Quote

Christ, like us is body, soul and spirit[1Thess 5]. At death his own spirit left his dead body but his soul was enlivened by the Spirit. He was not held in hades or sheol but visited those emprisoned spirits.

I see.  So, Y'shua gave up his own spirit but kept the Spirit of God, which is the same as the Spirit of Christ, but is not the spirit that he gave up.  So, did Y'shua have a spirit before he came to earth, or was he just a soul?

Also, my other question was:

Are souls “confined to Hades” or are spirits?

I would appreciate your clarification.

Thanks.

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
Do you understand the nature of divine beings that you can reveal the heavenly nature of the Word?

We know little except that he was the image of God who is spirit and we too are made in the image of God so there are some undoubted similarities.

Since it was possible for him to empty himself and partake of flesh we can know that as soul he must have born some similarities to our nature as soul.

The line between soul and spirit exists sometimes seems not easy to define and that is why Hebrews 4.12 shows us that we need the alive and active Word to define that line.

When the disciples saw Jesus walking on the water they thought he was a spirit. What do you make of this?

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,

You say
” So, Y'shua gave up his own spirit but kept the Spirit of God, which is the same as the Spirit of Christ, but is not the spirit that he gave up”

I showed you my scriptural foundation for these beliefs so can you discuss these matters from there so we can all learn from the truth as my own opinion is irrelevant.

He did not KEEP the Spirit by his own action but God's Spirit did not abandon him…..and never will…and never will abandon us either unto eternity..

[Author]

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