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Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,04:26) epistemaniac. Can I say that you came knocking on our door and brought this strange teaching with you.
We didn't come to you.
What spirit motivates a man to oppose the truth that God is one. Probably the same spirit that motivated men to persecute the prophets of old, the apostles, and teachers of the NT.
It's sad that there is no end of candidates that wish to oppose the first comandment and to deny in their teachings that Jesus came in the flesh.
hey now… wait a minute… you just said this was a public forum and anyone could post here…. what are you complaining about me coming here? lol…and obviously this is no “strange teaching” as if you are not familiar with it….. unless you mean that this biblical doctrine of the Trinity in the biblical sense, that is, you chose a poor paraphrase to call the doctrine of the Trinity a “strange teaching” as that is exactly what the philosophers in Athens called Paul's teaching, they called the truth he spoke “strange teaching”.
“Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”–because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. And they took hold of him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.”
(Act 17:16-20 ESV)You said “What spirit motivates a man to oppose the truth that God is one. Probably the same spirit that motivated men to persecute the prophets of old, the apostles, and teachers of the NT.”
I agree, its too bad the Arians are this way isn’t it? The Arians go about calling biblical doctrines the same things as the secular and atheistic philosophers called Paul's teaching!
You said “It's sad that there is no end of candidates that wish to oppose the first comandment and to deny in their teachings that Jesus came in the flesh.”
So true. Of course no Trinitarian denies that Jesus came in the flesh. So while I join you in your sadness in this regard, this really applies to the various proto and full fledged Gnostics.
blessings
Hi e,
Your words:
“but then, the doctrine fo the Trinity has nothing to do with this conclusion. You don't find secular atheistic philosophers defending the Trinity. If anything, the most they usually might eventually grant is that there was “some kind of intelligent designer” and that's it, as the former famous atheist Anthony Flew has done is his latter years… that is, its people like this who don't have a clue because they do not trust the full counsel of the Scriptures to teach them that this intelligent designer is a Triune Being, a Father, a Son sent to atone for the sins of His Bride, and a Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth.”So “all truth” leaves the bible behind and ventures into new doctrinal teachings?
Why is not the Son of God……. a son of God?
and hey guys… I am gonna have to take a break, I just don't have the energy to go on this evening with you all, for while my mind is saying ….. “all night long” ….. my flesh is saying, “hey stupid, you just got out of the hospital and you are far too tired and should have stopped replying to these posts several hours ago”…. so… good night…
blessings
Hi e,
Your words;
“, its too bad the Arians are this way isn’t it? The Arians go about calling biblical doctrines the same things as the secular and atheistic philosophers called Paul's teaching!”But Paul did not teach trinity. So what gives?
This is indeed strange new teaching you bring.
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 20 2006,23:46) t8, you said “The bible teaches that God is one. This is why the Jews haven't embraced the trinity doctrine. That doctrine teaches that God is triune, while saying that he is also one to appease particular scriptures.” So what? They also denied He was the Messiah. Do you want to join them in this error as well?
To epistemaniac,Call it intuition, but I knew you were going to say that.
The rebuttal for your answer is that the Jews rejected Christ and it is written that they didn't comprehend the day of their visitation and God chose to work through others who would bear fruit.
But where is it written that they denied the Trinity or that they couldn't comprehend the Trinity or that concept.
It is not mentioned once, nor whispered, or even thought about.
If the Trinity was that important, then how come we don't read about their rejection of that doctrine as we read about their rejection of the messiah?
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 20 2006,23:46) ahh.. but while we are to trust as a child, we are not to stay there and remain babes. No one is commended in the Bible for their immaturity or ignorance about the Scriptures.
True that epistemaniac.But once we lose the innocence that children have and start with all that adult philosophical worldy wise stuff, then God stops revealing things.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.Matthew 21:16
And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?Children are innocent in that they haven't had time to learn the ways of the world. You know sometimes it takes a child to say “the king has no clothes on”.
Matthew 18:4
Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.So we are encouraged to be humble like a child. Not childish. When I see these scholars, priests, and dreamers going on about the Trinity, ontologies, economic trinity, and other garbage I see the pride of intellect at work. The problem with that is God doesn't reveal things to such people.
Ironic isn't it. Just as ironic as those who loose their lives for Christ sake will find it, and those who are last shall be first.
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 20 2006,00:52) seminarian, (which seminary do you attend?) your post is, not to put too sharply of a point on it, patently ridiculous, for if we followed your reasoning, since most/all of your post are phrases and words not specifically found in the original Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew, we must deny anything you write, say or teach because the phrases themselves are not exactly found in the Scriptures, and anything that you say which is not a direct quote from the original languages (or we could even grant an English text) is merely subjective inferences.
G'day Epistemaniac,
I agree entirely. I think the “the word trinity is found nowhere in the Bible” argument is manifestly the weakest one used against trinitarianism. If it were a valid objection then we should also immediately jettison the biblical concept of 'theocracy' on account of a descriptive title being absent in the biblical text, even though Israel was one!BTW, I hope you are well. I have been thinking about often and praying for you.
Blessings
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 20 2006,23:57) hey now… wait a minute… you just said this was a public forum and anyone could post here…. what are you complaining about me coming here? lol…
No I am giving you a reason for why we will reject you and not invite you into our homes (so to speak). You bring a false gospel and teaching.We don't reject you because we don't like you, but because you teach falsely.
By all means you can post here like anyone. But don't expect that you will not be rebuked.
False teachers are allowed to teach, but we are also allowed to rebuke if necessary.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 21 2006,05:27) I agree entirely. I think the “the word trinity is found nowhere in the Bible” argument is manifestly the weakest one used against trinitarianism. If it were a valid objection then we should also immediately jettison the biblical concept of 'theocracy' on account of a descriptive title being absent in the biblical text, even though Israel was one!
Maybe you don't read the posts that contain scripture that contradicts the trinity. Surely our strength is the scriptures we quote. I don't think anyone here is saying that “the word trinity isn't in the bible” argument is the strongest argument we have.If so, where do we say that?
I think you like to pretend that it is the strongest argument, but that exists in your own head my friend.
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 20 2006,04:46) The doctrine of the Trinity does not attempt to “appease Scriptures”, its the only way to properly reconcile the full council of God. And hey, some people can't deal with having to face the full council of God;
Amen Episemaniac!!You are truely an oasis of logic and reason in a desert of irrationality….
Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,10:37) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 21 2006,05:27) I agree entirely. I think the “the word trinity is found nowhere in the Bible” argument is manifestly the weakest one used against trinitarianism. If it were a valid objection then we should also immediately jettison the biblical concept of 'theocracy' on account of a descriptive title being absent in the biblical text, even though Israel was one!
Maybe you don't read the posts that contain scripture that contradicts the trinity. Surely our strength is the scriptures we quote. I don't think anyone here is saying that “the word trinity isn't in the bible” argument is the strongest argument we have.If so, where do we say that?
I think you like to pretend that it is the strongest argument, but that exists in your own head my friend.
Hey t8, did I write that I was speaking exclusively about the arguments i've read in this forum?Think things through before you jump to conclusions.
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 20 2006,23:46) you said “Have a look at the reaction you get when explaining the Trinity to a new believer.” I have, many times. What, do you allow the understanding of a new believer to dictate your beliefs!?!? Well no wonder you haven't progressed t8!! lol….. 😉
you said “In fact don't do that. But ask christians what they thought when they first heard it.”
I have many times, none ever denied it outright, they realized right away that God was not someone they would fully comprehend, ever… and if He is triune… if the Bible teaches He is triune, then they were happy to accept it as biblical doctrine.
What about the question but how can Jesus be the son of the God that he is?Or God is one, but made up of three, and yet each one is 100% God?
Or how can 3 be 1. Is he 3 or 1.
If the believers don't question, then they are surely open to deception as they are not testing the teaching.
Perhaps in your experience you do not encourage new believers to question and test all things. That may explain your lack of such responses. Your last paragraph explains this anyway. You openly mention that they do not question and just accept what is told of them.
That is scarey and unfortunate.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.Quote If so, where do we say that?
…and I never infered that I thought that you or others think it's the strongest one. I just made the comment that I thought it was the weakest, and it is….Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,10:49) What about the question but how can Jesus be the son of the God that he is?
What does it mean to you that Yahshua is the “Son of God”. Please be specific. Does it mean that He was 'birthed' by the Father? Yes or no.To epistemaniac,
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 20 2006,23:57) So true. Of course no Trinitarian denies that Jesus came in the flesh. So while I join you in your sadness in this regard, this really applies to the various proto and full fledged Gnostics.
Trintarians openely say that “God came in the flesh”, when we know it was the Word (that was WITH God) who became or came in the flesh.What I said was their teaching denies it.
Try googling this exact term, (include the quotes):
Then look at the results. This is the work of Trinitarians is it not?
It was Jesus Christ (the Word) who came in the flesh.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 21 2006,05:45) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 20 2006,04:46) The doctrine of the Trinity does not attempt to “appease Scriptures”, its the only way to properly reconcile the full council of God. And hey, some people can't deal with having to face the full council of God;
Amen Episemaniac!!You are truely an oasis of logic and reason in a desert of irrationality….
The translation as follows:
You are scratching my itching ears just nicely. Oooooh a little to the left please.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 21 2006,05:55) Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,10:49) What about the question but how can Jesus be the son of the God that he is?
What does it mean to you that Yahshua is the “Son of God”. Please be specific. Does it mean that He was 'birthed' by the Father? Yes or no.
It means God is his Father. God is a father because he has a son.
The answer is in there if you dig.Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,11:08) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 21 2006,05:55) Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,10:49) What about the question but how can Jesus be the son of the God that he is?
What does it mean to you that Yahshua is the “Son of God”. Please be specific. Does it mean that He was 'birthed' by the Father? Yes or no.
It means God is his Father. God is a father because he has a son.
The answer is in there if you dig.
….ahhh there's the equivocation…I knew you still had it in you.
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