The Trinity Doctrine

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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2006,03:54)

Hi , In my view trinity doctrine is evil and is sin. as such acceptance of it places a barrier between us and God who cannot abide sin. It is not taught in the OT. It is not taught in the NT. It is added to the Word of God. It is not born of the fear of God. It, instead, insults that Father God. It denies Jesus is the true Son of God. It separates God from His Spirit. It reinterprets truth according to itself. Thus it distorts and destroys truth. Thus it attacks the integrity of the Word of God. It denies Jesus is a mediator for us with God. It denies Jesus is a priest unto God. It denies Jesus is an advocate for us with God. It replaces simplicity with confusion.  It does all these evil things and more and then shows it's innate arrogance by ignoring the claims of scripture itself against it, thus showing that it's original proponents neither feared God nor respected the Word he gave as truth.

Hi Nick,

Well said, Nick.  Its deception is subtle but quite real and deliberate in origin.  And we know it shall not prevail against the eternal word of God which shall not pass away!

[Proclaimer]

I agree Nick. It is a major stumbling block.

I would go as far to say that belief in the Trinity doesn't affect your salvation though, if you truly believe that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God.

However if one teaches and defends that doctrine, then they can only be a false teacher.

Salvation doesn't mean that we must understand all doctrine, but there are foundational ones that cannot be ignored. So long as the foundational one's are believed, then such a person has a true belief.

Of course believing that Jesus is the son of God does have seriously conflicts with the Trinity doctrine, that is probably why most do not understand it.

They know Jesus is the Son (which is foundational), but they cannot fathom how he can also be the God that he is the son of. So they just leave it as a mystery. Thankfully, many still understand that Jesus is God's son.

Anyway it seems that the time has come for God's people to leave the gods of babylon, for God will make sure that false gods will fall.

We also know that the Jewish people at times were led astray and also enslaved by other nations. We know too that they even worshipped false gods at times. But God never gave up on them. Their rebellion has led them through the fire many times, but today they live in their home land. God wants the same for us.

From personal experience I know that God was with me when I received salvation. Not to long after that I was told by other Christians that I must join or regularly fellowship in a denomination. I obeyed and I was led astray by false teachings.

At this time God gave me a vision of a cage. The problem was I was inside and so were the other members of the denomination. I couldn't grasp what God was trying to tell me. I thought that I did all that was required in order to receive his blessings and he surely had blessed me. But why oh why was he showing me that I was inside a prison.

A couple of years later I started to understand after reading scripture extensively that a lot of teachings I had recieved did not stack up. At this time I also seriously questioned the Trinity doctrine. I just couldn't see it in scripture. But everytime I questioned it with so-called more mature brothers, they planted me right back on that foundation with 1 or 2 scriptures.

At this stage I thought that I was the one with the problem, so I left my doubt and questions to float in the wind. But my faith from that day on was never as great and miracles that I saw nearly everyday happened once in a while.

I guess that I became luke-warm and I tried to become hot, but couldn't. It wasn't till I left the prison, that I was free once again to serve God in anyway that pleased him.

That to me is the real tragedy. That people who are born from above are almost immediately herded into cages to spend the rest of their lives inprisoned. Some who cannot handle it leave the faith altogether and others leave but think that they are rebellious and their faith doesn't shine because of their doubt.

We who understand this prison need to encourage such people. Faith not only exists outside the system, but it can flourish all the more. This is a responsibility that we have.

We need to show believers (those who believe that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God) the true foundation. Once they know the foundation, they can build works of gold and silver on top.

Such people will then see that church isn't boring, because they are the Church.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
I agree .
We are to build a building. Each mans' building will either stand or fall according to what materials are chosen and what the man chooses to build upon.

Only one foundation stone is allowed-Jesus Christ. All must pass through the gate and he is the gate and the gatekeeper.

The materials or graces of the Spirit of Christ are shown in 2 Peter 1. They upbuild the character of Christ within us and produce the fruit that God, the Gardener, requires of us.

But no matter if we choose the correct cornerstone and add the correct building blocks to hold out the rain and wind and strorms sent against us we must build on rock. That foundation is the teachings of the bible. If you build on sand or in mud it cannot do anything but fall.

“A wise man digs deep and builds on rock, and that Rock is my teachings”

[Proclaimer]

Amen bro.

It says somewhere that even if their works burn up in judgement fire, they will still be saved, only because of the foundation/rock that they built upon.

So it is all in vain if it is not on the foundation.
But the foundation is that sure that even if the works burn up, it is solid enough to keep you saved.

So let us not ever abondon this foundation. Everything we do should be built on it.

[Proclaimer]

In answer to the title and description of this discussion:

Is the trinity doctrine unsound – Yes
Is Jesus God – Not God of all. Not Yahweh. He is Yahweh's only begotten.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Jn 5.21
” For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life ,
even so the Son also gives lfe to whom he wishes”

Two beings

v 24
“Truly ,truly ,I say to you, he who hears my word,
and believes Him who sent me,
has eternal life..”

Two beings.

etc etc

[Proclaimer]

Quote (seekingtruth @ June 04 2006,13:39)

heiscomingintheclouds I'm in full agreement with your post and it is echoed many times throughout this forum. I just want to voice a concern of mine mostly directed to T8 and Nick but also to others, myself included. Please don't take this wrong I love both you guys and feel as though your my brothers and hope you feel the same. My concern is that the attitude towards some who believe in the trinity. Abraham did not have a revelation of who Jesus was when he was saved (although I believe it was through Jesus paying the price that he was saved), it was though faith (a revelation of Gods mercy). It is still by a basic revelation (and a choice to repent) that we are saved, then we begin the journey of searching, and being lead by the Spirit, into all truth. The problem as I see it is that many who believe in the trinity have had the basic revelation and are saved, we, being further along in the process of finding truth, have had the revelation that trinity is a false doctrine. Just because we have one more truth should we look down on them? I believe we are like the one with a log in our eye (which is being judgmental, not of sin which we should judge, but of a persons standing based on their level of truths understood) and those who DO have a splinter in their eye (a false belief) are not being helped by us due to our attitude (I could even say arrogance). I was saved over 25 years ago and up to a couple of years ago I believed in the trinity. I have always hungered for truth, and even though I heard a few arguments against trinity during the first 23 years I did not have the revelation until one sleepless night. What I'm saying is we need to be patient and let the Spirit draw them into all truth, our job is to present it and love them. I've never been swayed to a truth by a judgmental person. Just so there is no misunderstanding I'm not talking about being patient with someone spreading a doctrine which leads others away from the basic revelation that leads to salvation. As always (I hope) I'm open to correction

Apologies seekingtruth,

I only noticed your post now.

I agree with you brother that we shouldn't look down on anyone.
I also agree that we should be patient and understanding with the many Christians who believe the Trinity doctrine to be foundational.
I do try and respect these ideals too. I also believe that believing in the Trinity doctrine is not an automatic assumption that such a person is not of the fold. Certainly many are true brothers and should be treated as such.

But I also have no problem saying it as it is to those who teach and defend the doctrine. I do this for a number of reasons.

1) They are teaching falsely and if they do it often, then the title false teacher is applicable.
2) They can lead others astray with their doctrine.
3) Jesus also rebuked false teachers and those who rejected great truths, like some of the Pharisees.

In saying this, Jesus was also very patient and understanding with the ignorance of ordinary people around him. But he certainly gave false teachers and those who lay stumbling blocks to the Kingdom of Heaven a very hard time.

I think and hope that I am no different to that.

There have been few people (but currently only 1 I think) whom I rebuke, only because they come here time and time again teaching falsely and trying to lead people astray. They have demonstrated aptly that their hearts are hard and they are not serving God or his Kingdom, rather the enemy is using them. Remember what happens to those who lead the little ones astray, is it not better for a millstone to be tied around their neck…

We also need to remember that more people read the forums than post. If we are not clear with our rebuke against false teachers and false teachings, then somehow a reader may take on board some of it due to it not being challenged or rebuked. But to those who believe falsely and debate with us regarding false doctrine, then patience and understanding is in order. But if they cross the line and teach falsely while ignoring light (scripture) that has been shown them, then I also cross the line and rebuke.

Titus 2:15
These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

[seekingtruth]

T8,
We are in agreement, I tend to error towards grace, but this can be wrong also. I need more boldness to truly please God.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
“Trinity logic” works like this and correct me if I am wrong.

The bible speaks of God.
God can be only have one type [ we assume as we know nothing much about God!].
The bible calls Jesus God occasionally.
The bible says there is only one God.
Jesus is either that God or not or…… perhaps yes and no!!
If he is the Son of God also in the bible we must accommodate that too.
To accommodate all we should have him in God always, and still be called the Son of God.

Ahhh

The main problem with such “logic” however is that the truth about the reality of the Son of God is destroyed and we lose our advocate, our mediator, our door to eternity.

The Salvation message of Christ is gone.

[Proclaimer]

To seekingtruth,

God gifts us in different ways and he also gives us different measures of his own character, so that one brother is bold, another full of grace, and another with charity.

It is together that we are the image of God because we all contain the character of God in part if we are being changed by the creator.

Of course it is good to be filled with godliness and the more we can image God the better. But God calls one person for this and another for that. That is why we need each other.

The grace you show is extremely important especially here. So keep up the good work brother.

[malcolm ferris]

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Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, [4480, 6924; Heb. qedem qêdmâh] from everlasting. [4480, 3117, 5769; Heb. ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm] Psa 93:1-2 The LORD [YHWH] reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD [YHWH] is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved. 2 Thy throne is established of old:[4480 qedem qêdmâh], thou art from everlasting.[4480, 5769; Heb. ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm] Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father,1 though Abraham be ignorant, of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, [YHWH] art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.[4480, 5769 Heb. ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm] Exactly the same Hebrew words are used to describe YHWH's eternality.

Hi Is 1:18

Wow, that is good – thanks for pointing it out.
I especially like the fact that Ps 93:2 says that God's throne is established of old
Now before I say what I am about to say next I will make this preemptive disclaimer:

I am aware that God is Spirit and exists without any need for a body. And that therefore the term Throne of God does not necessarily imply an actual seat rather a state of government.

(end of disclaimer)

However even looking at the idea of a throne of God from this viewpoint it must be apparent that this is brought about by God who alone is eternal, so that this government comes into being, the throne has an origin. And that origin is said to be 'of old' – very ancient – as ancient as any government or throne can be.
The fact that it is established implying (directly I would say) that the throne has a point of origin and is therefore not eternal. So it can be said of this government, of this throne that it is from everlasting – but the ONE who sits upon it: the Lord [YHWH] is eternal.
The same can be said of His name also – it is from everlasting. A name is something by which a person is identified as to who they are, and often names are also descriptive of the person and their character or nature. One can only speculate as to whether God had any need for a name to identify Himself before there was anything there to require this identification to be made manifest… certainly I believe He was a person in existence before anything else.

Personally what I see identified in Micah 5:2 is the fact that Jesus has a vintage that goes right back to the beginning, to the point at which God was beginning to establish Heaven. If the Hebrew said : 'whose existence was before the ages, before the beginning even, in eternity as one who exists alone' – then that would make it absolutely certain that Jesus was eternal and therefore would have to be that ONE GOD. But it is dealing with a reference to a time element and to an origin that is traceable from a point in time.

The word “eternal” is of very varying import, both in the Scriptures and out of them.
1. `Olam:
In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word `olam is used for “eternity,” sometimes in the sense of unlimited duration, sometimes in the sense of a cycle or an age, and sometimes, in later Hebrew, in the signification of world. The Hebrew `olam has, for its proper New Testament equivalent, aion, as signifying either time of particular duration, or the unending duration of time in general. Only, the Hebrew term primarily signified unlimited time, and only in a secondary sense represented a definite or specific period. Both the Hebrew and the Greek terms signify the world itself, as it moves in time.
2. Aion, Aionios:
In the New Testament, aion and aionios are often used with the meaning “eternal,” in the predominant sense of futurity. The word aion primarily signifies time, in the sense of age or generation; it also comes to denote all that exists under time- conditions; and, finally, superimposed upon the temporal is an ethical use, relative to the world's course. Thus aion may be said to mean the subtle informing spirit of the world or cosmos–the totality of things. By Plato, in his Timaeus, aion was used of the eternal Being, whose counterpart, in the sense-world, is Time. To Aristotle, in speaking of the world, aion is the ultimate principle which, in itself, sums up all existence.. In the New Testament, aion is found combined with prepositions in nearly three score and ten instances, where the idea of unlimited duration appears to be meant. This is the usual method of expressing eternity in the Septuagint also. The aionios of 2 Corinthians 4:18 must be eternal, in a temporal use or reference, else the antithesis would be gone.

Source http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T3220

(from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia – (just the first hit I got in Google))

I assert that we are dealing with a point in time – (even if not time as we know it) – based on the form of wording: 'from old' and 'from everlasting'
The word 'from' implying to me a movement from one point to another –

if I say:

'I come from the year 1975' – (perhaps I am a time-traveller in some sci-fi scenario – hey I am only illustrating OK 😉 it implies I came from a place in time in the past.
'I come from the beginning' – implies I came from the time known as the beginning of time.
'I come from the future' – implies I came from a place in time yet to happen.
'I come from eternity' – implies to me the speaker either came from another dimension that exists without time that is eternal. Or came from a point before time existed into the present point in time.

…yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

This speaks of one who is said to come forth from amongst men to be Israel's future King, yet whose goings forth precede his coming forth, dating back to a point said to be – from of old, from everlasting.
So you could be looking at either the point of beginning or a coming forth from eternity and both are correct.
The goings forth of Jesus begin at the beginning – (or a point just before what is termed in Gen 1:1 to be the beginning).
From eternity he came forth – for he had to come forth from eternity to be the son of the eternal one.
So his coming forth is the beginning of existence of his being as a son, which is a son living by the life of his Father who alone is eternal.
And what do we call the beginning of the existence of a son's being?
A begettal. Sons are not created they are begotten, bodies may be formed for them, or created for them, but the sons are OF God, their origins are from eternity – or they are not sons of God.

IMHO that is.

[NickHassan]

Hi is 1.18 and Malclom,
If eternal means forever in retrospect, then in what way could we receive eternal life?

There is no scriptural term for any reference to life before”the beginning”. If the beginning signifies the era before creation we can know that God, and His Son and the sons of God seen in Job including Satan come from thence.

You are right in that there is no discrimination shown in time origin between the Father and these sons. But we know the Ancient of Days has no beginning and sons derive being from their fathers.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,23:48)

Hi, “Trinity logic” works like this and correct me if I am wrong. The bible speaks of God. God can be only have one type [ we assume as we know nothing much about God!]. The bible calls Jesus God occasionally. The bible says there is only one God. Jesus is either that God or not or…… perhaps yes and no!! If he is the Son of God also in the bible we must accommodate that too. To accommodate all we should have him in God always, and still be called the Son of God.

Yep. I think that about sums it up.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
One thing the trinitarians have got on their side is force of numbers. Ever since the inception of this doctrine it became quickly orthodoxy. That has not changed. Though many other denominations have separated from the catholic church roots almost all have maintained the concept of a triune God. Millions upon millions of believers, generation after succeeding generation all over the globe have held fast to this belief. It is staggering to consider the implications. Far more than 99% of believers would have held this doctrine dear.

That does not make it right of course.

God always saves a remnant.

[malcolm ferris]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,19:59)

Hi is 1.18 and Malclom, If eternal means forever in retrospect, then in what way could we receive eternal life? There is no scriptural term for any reference to life before”the beginning”. If the beginning signifies the era before creation we can know that God, and His Son and the sons of God seen in Job including Satan come from thence. You are right in that there is no discrimination shown in time origin between the Father and these sons. But we know the Ancient of Days has no beginning and sons derive being from their fathers.

Quote

If eternal means forever in retrospect, then in what way could we receive eternal life?

As I understand it eternal means without beginning and without ending

Can you have an eternal son? – I do not believe so – a son is begotten, therefore has a beginning, therefore is not eternal in this sense.
I do not believe you can have an eternal son. But you can have a son with eternal life.
If the eternal One has a son – that son has the same life as his Father – namely eternal life.
If that son has eternal life then once that son comes forth it cannot ever lose that eternal life.
We could and did fall from the status Adam had as a son of God not yet perfected – having not yet come to the tree of life and the assignment of eternal life unto completion.
Jesus could and did take on a form lower than his original one, and in this form tasted death for us, but he could not lose eternal life, he could not stay dead.
Can God lose any of His sons? No I do not believe so – any more than He could lose a part of Himself. (Jn 6:37-39)

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There is no scriptural term for any reference to life before “the beginning”.

The very fact of God being eternal necessitates there being life before any beginnings – for God has life surely? God is a Spirit, Spirit is Life.

Quote

…But we know the Ancient of Days has no beginning…

So he is eternal? Has no beginning – then did He exist before the beginning? Was He alive then, a being?

Quote

…and sons derive being from their fathers…

So if the Father's being is Life then they derive their life from this – His Life, surley?

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
He Who Is Spirit and Eternal Life can give life to any being that He chooses to.
Jn 5.24
“Him Who sent me has eternal Life”[2222]
Jn 521
“also give life[2222] to whom He wishes”
Jn 5.26
“as the Father has life[2222] in Himself”
Jn 5.26
“The Son also to have life[2222]in himself”
Jn 6.63
“It is the Spirit who gives life[[2222]”

He has given for the Son to have eternal life. In him is life[Jn 1.14[2222],1 Jn 5,.11[2222]

For men to have that life they must come to Jesus. He is the way, the truth and the Life [2222]and the resurrection and the life[2222]. He is the Prince of Life[2222]

If a being is eternal life and that life is given to another as to the Son in the beginning, then that being cannot spiritually die. Jesus partook of condemned flesh and that flesh died as it must but he lived.

If we come to the Son and are reborn of his eternal life then we cannot spiritually die either but have eternal life. What life we did not have we now have and thence we have eternal life.

Being given eternal life does not make us as God having always existed but does make us like Him from then on in that way.

This should continue perhaps in the LIFE thread.

Jesus is the medaitor between us and God , who is the Father, and it is he who comes to bring life to men , not the Father. Without Him no man could approach the Father. They were terrified even to approach the mountain of which God manifested a tiny amount of His glory and power. Jesus is not that God but his vessel carried the full measure of God's manifold Spirit to reveal God to men. Trinity is a fabricated nonsense.

[Woutlaw]

Brothers,

The bible makes it very clear that there is only ONE TRUTH. The sad fact is that in Christendom today there are hundreds of truths. let's look at some scriptures.

1 Timothy 4:16, “watch your life and doctrine closely, persever in them, for if you do you will save yourself and your hearers.”

Titus 2:1, says, that “we must teach what in accord with sound doctrine.”

Galatians 1:8 says that, “if we or an angel from heaven, preach another gospel than what we preached to you, let them be accursed.”

There sure doesn't seem to be much wiggle room to me.

Now I've discussed the scriptures with Trinitarians and Oneness individuals. I strongly disagree with them but I respect their beliefs. I don't damn them to hell, or trash them. I simply share with them what I believe to be true and then pray for them.

I DON'T PLAY JUDGE. Where they spend eternity is between them and the one who judges. I just share what I believe to be true every chance I get.

[malcolm ferris]

Can Jesus save whom he will? (JOHN 14:6 )
Or does he save whom the Father draws? (JOHN 6:44)

You cannot have eternal life unless you get it through Jesus
You cannot come to Jesus for eternal life, unless God draws you. (JOHN 6:37-40 )

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Being given eternal life does not make us as God having always existed but does make us like Him from then on in that way.

Didn't say having eternal life makes us God, there is but One God. I completely agree we become as He is, like Him, but we do not become Him.
And He is always before us, and above us, even as Jesus – who is not the Eternal One – but who pre-dates us as to existence – is before us and above us.

Quote

…and it is he who comes to bring life to men , not the Father…

If Jesus does it, the Father does it as far as I am concerned. Why? Because he only works according to his Father's will.
When he was here in his flesh he said: “…I work and hitherto my Father works…”

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
What I meant is that he is the only way to the Father and all things coming to us from the Father must come through that mediator.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
We are, however, judging doctrines. They stand or fall according to the Word of God. If men hold them dear they may feel personally affronted when their treasures are regarded as sorry trash. But if men follow false doctrine they may be lost and someone needs to throw them a rope. They may refuse it as it is their right. We are standing on solid ground in the rock of Word and want all to be safe too.

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