The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
Are you surprised the Father is from everlasting?
He was with the Word in the beginning so there should be no surprises there.

Of course we know so little about the beginning but it seems likely the Father preceded the Son in this aeon, as fathers normally do and the Father had no beginning.

June 1, 2006 at 10:38 pm#18415

Participant

Hi,
Matt 10.32 f
“Everyone therefore who shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven.
But whoever shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven”

Trinity denies that Jesus exists as the Son of God but says he has always been a part of that God.

Which would you wish?

The eternal blessing or the eternal curse?

June 1, 2006 at 10:42 pm#18416

Participant

Hi ,
Jn 10.35f
“..scripture cannot be broken…
…I am the Son of God…”

Should we not believe him and what is written rather than following the speculations of evil men?

June 2, 2006 at 12:05 am#14433

Participant

Most of the world frowns on anyone who considers the trinity doctrine unsound. Yet, why. If one looks to where this doctrine originated, isn’t that enough arrouse suspicion?

Forget about that, let us examine just one part of scripture that trinitarians refuse to accept. In 1 Cor. 15.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This part of scripture tells that once the Son has defeated all the enemies of the Father and subdued all things, he too, will be subject unto the Father and the father will be all in all.

I believe that God begat his Son and made him God of all creation and all things were created by him and through him by the Father. So many people are decieved. Jesus is not God the Father, he is God the Son. He was begotten of the Father, and the Father put all things under him, giving him all the authority of the Godhead. Yet, once the will of the Father is finished, and all his enemies have been defeated, the Son will be subject unto the Father. There is only one God. Praise God.

June 2, 2006 at 1:30 am#14437

Participant

Hi and welcome,
Yes . There will be none of the wise men who devised this evil to support us when we find out who is known by the Lord.

June 2, 2006 at 2:01 pm#14447

Participant

Most of the world frowns on anyone who considers the trinity doctrine unsound. Yet, why. If one looks to where this doctrine originated, isn't that enough arrouse suspicion?

Forget about that, let us examine just one part of scripture that trinitarians refuse to accept. In 1 Cor. 15.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This part of scripture tells that once the Son has defeated all the enemies of the Father and subdued all things, he too, will be subject unto the Father and the father will be all in all.

Amen Heiscomingintheclouds,

I shared that passage with a Trinitarian friend just last week. And showed him how it ties into Psalm 110:1. He wouldn't believe it. I also showed him that the bible does teach a hierarchy. God being the head of Christ, Christ being the head of man, man being the head of woman, 1Corintians 11:3, John 15:1.

His response blew me away. He said that somehow there is within the “Godhead”, a hierarchy. I said if this is true, then the Trinity is a heresy because it states that there is one God, who is revealed in three “persons”, who are co-eternal, co-equal, and they co-exist.

He accused me of “playing” with words!!!! I dropped the subject after that and just decided to pray for him. I don't argue over God's word, as it is pointless. Only those who have been chosen can see the truth. There are many in the Harlot church that have eyes but cannot see, they have ears but cannot hear !!!!

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

June 2, 2006 at 2:25 pm#14448

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 02 2006,01:05)

There are many who say that Jesus is God. Let's look at the English definition for God.

1. any of the various being concieved of as a supernatural, immortal and having power over people and nature;a deity, especially a male one. 2. and idiol 3. a person or thing deified or excessively honored. 4. in monotheistic religions, the creator and ruler of the universe, eternal, infinite, all-powerful, and all-knowing.

I think Jesus fits #1, as he as been made Lord over all flesh by God his Father. He also fits #3 in that the scripture says that a time shall come when all shall honor the Son as one honors the Father. But only the One true God, the Father fits #4

I believe Jesus is god in respect to man, but there is only One GOD and FATHER of all.

I welcome any comments

June 2, 2006 at 4:45 pm#14453

Cubes

Participant

I agree, Woutlaw, based on: Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus is referred to as Mighty God, and John 1:1 … “…the word was God” as well as your reasons in #1 which have biblical examples.

Jesus said to honor him as the Father is honored. Certainly, but I would also like to add that genuine prophets of God carry some of that honor as well, in that when they say, “thus saith the LORD” a soul had better take them seriously! The Father honored such chosen ones by not letting their words fall to the ground; he backed them up. Elijah said it wouldn't rain and it didn't rain! For this reason, one is to be stoned to death if he is found to be a false prophet.

The Apostle(s) Peter carried similar honor in Acts 5 when speaking to ?Aquinas and Sapphira about lying to God. They were to be honored with the honor due Christ and ultimately God because they represented GOD through Jesus Christ.

I perceive Jesus to be what we're meant to be, the forerunner of us in all that is godly…. he of course being the lamb without blemish and worthy to receive our highest honor, glory and praise! Alleluiah.

June 3, 2006 at 1:31 am#14459

david

Participant

Quote

I believe Jesus is god in respect to man, but there is only One GOD and FATHER of all.

Interesting way to put it.

June 3, 2006 at 3:27 pm#14479

Participant

You do not know how refreshing it is to meet brothers and sisters in the Lord who know the word of God. So many are still held captive under the yoke of the trinity doctrine, which was created by the catholic church to justify their stand on the deity of Mary.

Something else to think about is the Father was before the Son, not the Son before the Father. The Father, begat his Son, the Word, in the beginning, even before the creation of the heavens and the earth. How do I know this. For the Father.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Now many try to claim that the Father and the Son are one in the same. I always say, is God a God of confusion? If God, who says he is not a God of confusion, was going to come to the earth himself, would he have not plainly said so? Why would he come posing as his own son? The world does not tremble at the Almighty God anymore. They don't look at God as pure, perfect, incapable of association with sin. God cannot be associated with sin.

It is for this reason God begat his Son, our captain of salvation, our mediator, our intercessor, our saving grace. When Jesus was on the cross, he became our sin, and the Father had to look away. It is for this reason the Son asked, ” Father, why hast thou forsaken me?” Jesus had never once been apart from the Father. Until this very moment. For the first time ever, the Father became seperate from the Son. Now, what it the importance here? Does this not reveal that there is a Father and a Son? The indwelling of the Father that was in the Son departed and had to depart, prior to the Son becoming our sin. Many claim that Jesus only symbolically became our sin. Scripture proves otherwise.

June 3, 2006 at 5:39 pm#14480

seekingtruth

Participant

heiscomingintheclouds
I'm in full agreement with your post and it is echoed many times throughout this forum.

I just want to voice a concern of mine mostly directed to T8 and Nick but also to others, myself included. Please don't take this wrong I love both you guys and feel as though your my brothers and hope you feel the same.

My concern is that the attitude towards some who believe in the trinity. Abraham did not have a revelation of who Jesus was when he was saved (although I believe it was through Jesus paying the price that he was saved), it was though faith (a revelation of Gods mercy). It is still by a basic revelation (and a choice to repent) that we are saved, then we begin the journey of searching, and being lead by the Spirit, into all truth.

The problem as I see it is that many who believe in the trinity have had the basic revelation and are saved, we, being further along in the process of finding truth, have had the revelation that trinity is a false doctrine. Just because we have one more truth should we look down on them?

I believe we are like the one with a log in our eye (which is being judgmental, not of sin which we should judge, but of a persons standing based on their level of truths understood) and those who DO have a splinter in their eye (a false belief) are not being helped by us due to our attitude (I could even say arrogance).

I was saved over 25 years ago and up to a couple of years ago I believed in the trinity. I have always hungered for truth, and even though I heard a few arguments against trinity during the first 23 years I did not have the revelation until one sleepless night. What I'm saying is we need to be patient and let the Spirit draw them into all truth, our job is to present it and love them. I've never been swayed to a truth by a judgmental person.

Just so there is no misunderstanding I'm not talking about being patient with someone spreading a doctrine which leads others away from the basic revelation that leads to salvation.

As always (I hope) I'm open to correction

June 3, 2006 at 6:13 pm#14481

Participant

Hi seekingthetruth,
Abraham waited to see the day Jesus walked the earth. For he knew when this happened, his redemption drawth nigh. For all who died and lived a rightious life, though they were still held captive in death, were not in hell, the place of torment, but were held in the place called by our Lord as the bosom of Abraham. Death is not the grave as satan has led the world to believe. It is a very real place. When Jesus died, he went into the lower parts and preached the gospel, for confession must be made with the fruit of the lips, and he set the captives free. Yet, only the rightious, for as in the story of Lazarus, those in Hell could not cross over. They fate is sealed. The scripture says that Jesus tasted death for all who believe so what is is referring to? We all die a physical death, so it cannot be talking about that. Now that Jesus is resurrected, all who believe and die, only die in the flesh, their souls go to be with Christ. Jesus was the last to die for all believers. Praise God.

June 4, 2006 at 3:43 am#14490

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 03 2006,16:27)

Heiscomingintheclouds,

I am spinning in my chair rejoicing at the truth you are sharing. The old testament makes it very clear that there is no iniquity in the LORD God, example 2Chronicles 19:7. 2Corinthians 5:21 tells us that he (God) made him (Christ) who had no sin to become sin for us.

Jesus Christ our Lord, the Son of the Most High, became a sin offering for us at Calvary. Not The Father for he is too holy to look upon sin. And as Heiscomingintheclouds has shared, this is why the Father had to look away from his Son while he was on the cross.

June 4, 2006 at 3:47 am#14492

Participant

Heiscomingintheclouds,

I too rejoice in the fact that I have brothers and sisters in Christ who know the word and the truth. My friend you have bothers and sisters all over the world. It is my prayer that God will continue to raise up vessels of truth the world over.

June 4, 2006 at 2:38 pm#14495

Participant

I have been talking to people about God on the internet for quite some time. The Lord told to go to those who said they know him with their lips, but not their hearts. And that are those in the churches that have a form of godliness, but deny the power of the Holy Spirit. Brother, I have my own groups on the net. And though many join to read what I post, it is more a debate group and the intention is seperate the truth from the lies. Now, I stand on the KJ bible, and you don't I would be totally shocked, for I believe it to be the infallible word of God. But all things are possible with God, yet, I cannot believe you can come to this understanding unless you know which bible is the true voice of Jesus.

Anyway brother, I know you do know God's word. My groups are yahoo groups and it would be wonderful to have someone aboard who can help in explaining where I may be lack. For we know when our Lord sent his apostles, he sent them in twos. My group is a yahoo group, in the religion, debate section. The name of it is called naturally, heiscomingintheclouds. God willing, I will see you there.

Your brother in arms,
Randy

June 4, 2006 at 2:47 pm#14496

Cubes

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ June 03 2006,23:39)

heiscomingintheclouds
I'm in full agreement with your post and it is echoed many times throughout this forum.

Just so there is no misunderstanding I'm not talking about being patient with someone spreading a doctrine which leads others away from the basic revelation that leads to salvation.

As always (I hope) I'm open to correction

Hi ST:

Good morning from where I am… I am just coming in from work and a bit tired. Your post has provoked me (in a good way) to comment.

You are my brother in Christ and I receive what you have to say, and on that merit, I also wish to speak candidly. I hear what you are saying and would normally agree with you and yet, I confess that in some cases, my love for the greater community of Christians (Israel, countrymen) provokes me to the same issues that provoked Stephen which led to his stoning. The scriptural facts and evidence showed forth abundantly in his time that Jesus Christ is the long promised Messiah but they would not be persuaded. Jesus himself had said to them – if you do not believe me, believe the works (evidence)… for they testify that the Father sent me – (or something to that effect), but they would not be persuaded… if you can't do it on the voice of the spirit that speaks through the word of God because you can't trust the intangible, then why not let the sheer unsummountable evidence give you confidence that “it is written.” If it's good enough for Jesus to operate on those terms, why can't we?

ST, there comes a point, when we do have to own up to the fact that some reject the truth. There are many of other religions who reject the truth of Messiah the Son of God. We do not hate them, but we also know that they are not a part of us…why? not because they are not as matured or well versed in the holy scriptures as we, but because they REJECT the truth and voluntarily choose and follow another way, believing something else other than what the God of Heaven and Earth says.

There are others of another religion, even unbelievers, who have not come because they have not heard or read. These have not rejected the truth and so one bears more patiently with them. It is them who are in the position to know the basic fundamentals who reject the truth that I think I have issues with, rightfully or not.

When compelling evidence is given us, it is our job who have been given the grace to look into the things which angels find baffling, to allow ourselves to be swayed by the evidence of all the ages which boils down to the fact that Jesus Christ is none other than the Son of God and that there is One God, the Father of Jesus Christ!

To have all the information, prophets, apostles, Father and Son proving the same, and to still be strongly decided for a Trinity is, my brother ST, rejection of truth. This has nothing to do with pride, ignorance, or any lack on their part or superiority on ours: just a choice they make.

We have by no means attained and I agree that just about daily, I understand something new about God which I didn't before … and there is room for all of us to grow, but I believe that is different from making a conscientious effort to REJECT scripture. It is no different today than it was in the days of Christ. Those people needed to be convinced that Christ IS the Son of the Father. Today, my brethren need to be convinced that the Christ IS the Son of God (for different reasons… certainly not the Father and Almighty God himself). The irony is that UNlike their counterparts in Jesus' day, they have practically NO evidence to go by for the doctrine of Trinity and Modalism.

I sincerely love many Trinitarians dearly AND SO shall not cease to provoke and persuade them as I have opportunity to in this very matter. I would not do it to an unbeliever and most certainly not to new or even biblically illiterate believers, but to those whose scholarship in the word I am relatively assured of, to those who have been presented copious amounts of evidence and scriptural answers to the seemingly Trinitarian verses, I shall be unto them as the Prophet Elijah and John the Baptist on this count because they know better but so far do reject the truth. I do not do this out of pride or meanness of spirit because it is not about comparison of knowledge, but out of the zeal…, a hope, and also frankly, the ridiculous notion presented against the clear teachings of the very scriptures we all claim. What use would it be to debate with someone who reads a different book… we must have common ground, and we do; but sooner or later, we have to own up and decide if we are speaking of the same God? the Same Father with his same Son, Yeshua, Lord of creation.

I am not in the least offended by your post (I am glad we can talk), nor do I dislike trinitarians and I hope mine has not created a great offense either…. certainly not intended to wound, but only to provoke those who may to some jealousy for our God!

June 4, 2006 at 8:54 pm#14502

seekingtruth

Participant

Cubes,
I think you hit the nail on the head, if someone rejects truth, meaning they understand but choose to ignore the facts, then we should confront them. I was speaking of those who are earnest in their search but due to well planted misinformation (verses added to the Bible etc.) they may hear the truth, but see conflicts, and with the overwhelming input all around them pointing one way, they believe they have chosen the truth. Of course this is coming from a slow learner which is probably why it took me 23 years.

I just do not believe belief in trinity affects your salvation unless once you receive the revelation you choose religion instead. I relate it to; the more your given the more is expected. I was not offended by your post, I was more concerned I may have offended, I appreciate honest discussion where I'm not afraid to be wrong (cause otherwise I would say very little) and I really appreciate a sister who is just as honest back, thank you

June 4, 2006 at 9:54 pm#14506