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I just don't understand how God can “become” a trinity.
I don't see how Moses could believe in a trinity. Nor can I see Noah. Job found favour in Yahweh's eyes, and he didn't worship a trinity. How could he? The Holy Spirit isn't found in the hebrew scriptures as being personified (not that I know of, correct me if I'm wrong!).Christ even said the God of the Jews (Yahweh) was the Father (John 8:54).
Yahweh ALONE is the “Most High”
(Palms 83:18).Jesus is the “Son of the Most High”
(Luke 1:32; 8:28, Mark 5:7).The trinity teaches Jesus is Yahweh.
This would make Jesus (The Son of the Most High) the son of Jesus (The Most High). [Note: I'm basing this statement on the above scriptures!]
Therefore, we have two Yahweh's which goes againts the greatest commandment (Deut. 6:4).
Hi jbl and welcome,
True
It also fails the test for “antichrist” doctrine found in 1Jn 4.2 as they say;
God came in flesh.
” By this you know the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God..”It also fails because it denies Jesus is the Son of God and makes that term a phony title only.
1Jn 2.23
” Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father..”Quote One should remember that these points were already debated at the Council of Nicea where the overwhelming majority of Bishops agreed with and adopted the Nicean Creed to establish the orthodox interpretation of Christ as defined in scripture. Since when has bineg in the majority indicated correctness? It was a majority that councilled Kings of Israel and Judah to go to war against the Syrians. Only one man, a minority, stayed with the word of God, a minority. (1 Kings 22)
It was a majority that spoke out against Jesus, in his lifetime, spurred on by the majority decision of the religious leaders of the day. (Mt 27:20)
In the psalms is says the rulers take council together against the Lord and agains His Christ. (Psalm 2:2) Very accurate given the events of history.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2006,22:03) Hi jbl and welcome,
True
It also fails the test for “antichrist” doctrine found in 1Jn 4.2 as they say;
God came in flesh.
” By this you know the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God..”It also fails because it denies Jesus is the Son of God and makes that term a phony title only.
1Jn 2.23
” Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father..”
Really?! The test of the Anti-Christ was the denial that Christ came in the Flesh-1Jn 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.1Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.—————-
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. – Isaiah 40:3
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord (Kurios, Gk.), make his paths straight. …
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier that I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: …
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
– Matthew 3:3, 11 & 13
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 22 2006,22:08) Quote One should remember that these points were already debated at the Council of Nicea where the overwhelming majority of Bishops agreed with and adopted the Nicean Creed to establish the orthodox interpretation of Christ as defined in scripture. Since when has bineg in the majority indicated correctness? It was a majority that councilled Kings of Israel and Judah to go to war against the Syrians. Only one man, a minority, stayed with the word of God, a minority. (1 Kings 22)
It was a majority that spoke out against Jesus, in his lifetime, spurred on by the majority decision of the religious leaders of the day. (Mt 27:20)
In the psalms is says the rulers take council together against the Lord and agains His Christ. (Psalm 2:2) Very accurate given the events of history.
So, are you implying that the minority are always right? According to this logic we should accept any minority that brings in a heretical doctrine?Hi NH,
Aren't all Holy Spirit-filled christians “vessels”? I don't see how this could be used to distinguish Him in any sense.Interested in your thoughts.
Blessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2006,01:43) Hi NH,
Aren't all Holy Spirit-filled christians “vessels”? I don't see how this could be used to distinguish Him in any sense.Interested in your thoughts.
Blessings
Hi,
All men are vessels and scripture says he is man.There are a variety of vessel qualities as inner man shown in 2Tim 20f.
We know ours is earthenware from 2Cor 4.7 but that leaves wood and Silver and Gold.
He was indistinguishable as a man among us as Is 53 shows and it was only when the power of God living in him was revealed that declared him to be the Son of God.It was the fullness of deity in Him,[Coll1.19] with God in him reconciling the world to Himself [2Cor 5.19]that was at work, not his own power. And he rightly gave all the credit to the Father, being a servant to God.
Only Peter and John and James who went with Jesus up the mountain were shown the personal glory of the Son of God.
Scripture says that we too can follow him and be filled with the Spirit of God in our vessels. The treasure is able to fill any ordinary but clean vessel.
“God is at work in you to will and to do” it says in Phillipians 2.13.
Rudy
Not implying the minority are right – just pointing out that the majority is not the way God does things. So to state that something has a certain authority based on human majority, although it seems reasonable, is not.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 23 2006,02:25) Rudy Not implying the minority are right – just pointing out that the majority is not the way God does things. So to state that something has a certain authority based on human majority, although it seems reasonable, is not.
The point is that the “majority” of those following the leadership of the Holy Spirit will be awakened to the deception that is being brought forth and promoted. The majority recognized the Arian teaching as “NEW”.History shows that the majority agreed that the “Rule of Faith” handed down from the Apostolic Fathers (the Apostles) was that Christ is categorically God, equal in substance being brought forth of and “one” with God's very own substance, begotten, not made or created – everlasting having the characteristics that belong to God alone. (Micah 5:2)
That is to say, the incommunicable attributes that make God God, and that without those attributes God is categorically NOT God.
One of which is omnipresence. No other being has omnipresence but God – and Christ IS omnipresent.
While on earth he divested Himself of His rights as God (John 1:1; Phil 2) and took on a body being made in the likeness of man and subjected Himself as a servant, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So God the Father has exalted Him to the Position of Glory which He held prior to the incarnation – All power is now Christs once again as it was before He laid His glory down to come and live our life, our substitute, and die in our place, the last Adam, the Lord (Kurios=YHWH) from heaven.
Jn 17:3-5
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.Jn 17:3-20
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.Mt 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.Rom 8:9-11
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.Jn 10:27-33
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.The audience before Christ understood every word, and this is the word passed down through the Apostles.
Blessings,
Rudy
Hi Rudy,
As you know scripture says in Hebrews
“Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and forever”So was he “omnipresent” when he was among men?
Or was he confined to a human body?Rudy
That's good, what I object to is the rationale that God is in His Church. There are many groups that claim this, and therefore claim to speak for God in matters of interpreting His Word.
But the test is always His Word, not men's say so, or majority agreement.
God is in His Church as long as His Church stays in His Word.
The truth is in Jesus, and we are in the truth so long as we stay by his spirit in the word of truth. Many claim to be in Jesus and to have the life of God in them by faith.
The proof is not found in which group that agrees is the biggest.
The proof is in whether the one claiming to be born of God is true to the word.
God is in His Word. (John 1:1-2)Hi Rudy,
So when Jesus came as a man “divesting himself”, in whose power did he work? In his own or the Father's?Hi NH,
OK, thanks for the reply. Sorry my posts will have to be brief as I'm working a home this afternoon. But I will elaborate later on tonight, hopefully. Can I ask you to clarify something for me for me please?Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead [Gr. theotes] bodily.
Do you understand 'theotes' to refer to The Father's Spirit in this verse?
God Bless
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 23 2006,03:17) Rudy That's good, what I object to is the rationale that God is in His Church. There are many groups that claim this, and therefore claim to speak for God in matters of interpreting His Word.
But the test is always His Word, not men's say so, or majority agreement.
God is in His Church as long as His Church stays in His Word.
The truth is in Jesus, and we are in the truth so long as we stay by his spirit in the word of truth. Many claim to be in Jesus and to have the life of God in them by faith.
The proof is not found in which group that agrees is the biggest.
The proof is in whether the one claiming to be born of God is true to the word.
God is in His Word. (John 1:1-2)
Excellent Malcom,That is the point of the Council of Nicea, they were doing the very thing you elaborated. The “Catholic Church” is the body of Christ, and “catholic” means “universal”, that is to say the body of Christ is NOT contained within the walls of a building, but rather the clay vessels we are contain and house the Spirit (singular) of God; the Father, the Son our Lord Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We are “God Bearers”, as Ignatius says in his dialogue with Trajan http://www.myfortress.org/pliny.html, if we have the Spirit of Christ. (1 John 1:3, Rom 8:9-11)
Col 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:Jer 31:33-34
But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD (YHWH), I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (YHWH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.2Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Ezek 37:26-27
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Everything that exists was made by the Pre-incarnate Logos, Christ the LORD, who alone is ONE with the Father and posesses incommunicable attributes together with the Father and Holy Spirit. (John 1:3, Col 1:16-17)
Jn 20:28-31
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (YHWH) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (YHWH) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (YHWH) shall call.Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord (Jesus).Phil 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus (Yeshua, Y'shua, Yahshua: Yah = YHWH, shua = savior/saves) every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord (Kurios = Gr. for YHWH/LORD), to the glory of God the Father.Isa 45:22-23
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.The Aramaic New Testament which traces it's roots to before the fourth century translate Lord in Phil 2:11 from MarYah, which is Mar = Lord, and Yah = short form of YHWH which again coincides perfectly with Is 45:23
Nick,
Your arguments will ALWAYS fall short, because you forget, Christ is now, post-resurrection, omnipresent. No angel, cherub, seraphim, or man or any being below God (that is to say, created) can posses that attribute. No created being inhabited eternity past. That is reserved for God alone.
Blessings,
Rudy
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 23 2006,03:39) Hi NH,
OK, thanks for the reply. Sorry my posts will have to be brief as I'm working a home this afternoon. But I will elaborate later on tonight, hopefully. Can I ask you to clarify something for me for me please?Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead [Gr. theotes] bodily.
Do you understand 'theotes' to refer to The Father's Spirit in this verse?
God Bless
Hi Is 1.18,
Certainly.
Jesus expressed ALL of the nature and the powers of God who was in him as Spirit such that he said to Phillip that whoever saw him saw the Father.That fullness is shared among his followers who make up his ONE body here, so that some are prophets, some evangelists, some teachers, some healers etc, but all the GIFTS and all the FRUIT of the Spirit of God was manifested fully in Him.
2Cor 5 19″God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
Jesus was not in himself was he?
The so called trinity [including himself]was not in him was it?Hi Rudy,
So you agree Christ was not everywhere when he was on earth partaking of flesh.
Yet he is the SAME yesterday today and forever.
That is odd.
Is Christ everywhere now, or only everywhere his body is?We know from Acts 17 that God is not far from anyone so is it the same with Christ?
Are there two, or three, everywhere?
Or is it ONE
Hi Rudy,
You quote Micah 5.2
“but as for you , Bethlehem, Ephrathah,
too little to be among the clans of Judah,
from you one will go forth FOR ME to be ruler in Israel,
His goings forth are FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY”So for Whom does he go forth?
He is from “long ago”.
My kids think the same about me.
He is from the days of eternity-Of course, he was with the God, his Father, in the beginning.
That is long ago,even from the days of eternity.So what is your point?
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