The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

JOHN 1:14
“So the Word BECAME flesh and resided among us….”

ROMANS 1:3
“concerning his Son, who sprang from the seed of David according to the flesh,”

HEBREWS 2:17
“Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people.”

PHILIPPIANS 2:7
“No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”

I believe too that the scriptures indicate that Jesus “became” flesh, human. He emptied himself of his divine nature, his heavenly existence, and actually “became” flesh, becoming “like his 'brothers' in all respects.” So I do not believe as some that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. That's just bad math and it doesn't fit with the above scritpures.

david.

March 13, 2006 at 12:19 am#18215

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2006,17:34)

JOHN 1:14
“So the Word BECAME flesh and resided among us….”

ROMANS 1:3
“concerning his Son, who sprang from the seed of David according to the flesh,”

PHILIPPIANS 2:7
“No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”

david.

If this view is taken then other scriptures that refer to Jesus having a divine nature would be the spirit of God dwelling in Him the same as the spirit of God dwells in us who believe. That Spirit which Jesus received during His baptism, and constituted the beginning of His ministry. I believe this does not conflict with the scriptures that we have stated throughtout this topic.

Also a side note:
So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. (Exo. 7:1)

Yahweh made Moses God to pharoah. What qualifications did Moses possess to obtain this standing, and how does this parrallel with Jesus?

March 13, 2006 at 3:26 am#18216

Participant

Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 13 2006,00:19)

Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2006,17:34)

JOHN 1:14
“So the Word BECAME flesh and resided among us….”

ROMANS 1:3
“concerning his Son, who sprang from the seed of David according to the flesh,”

PHILIPPIANS 2:7
“No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”

david.

Also a side note:
So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. (Exo. 7:1)

Yahweh made Moses God to pharoah. What qualifications did Moses possess to obtain this standing, and how does this parrallel with Jesus?

Hi Sultan,

How fascinating! This happened to be the topic of discussion at my house earlier this evening, as it relates to the topic at hand. Moses was tending to his flock when YHWH called him and gave him a mission. In his case, he didn't want go and did all he could to avoid going to Egypt but he did finally say yes to the Lord.
The Israelites themselves came to revere him and many still do today.

Using Moses as an analogy to the doctrine of Trinity, I felt that what has happened is that many of God's people slowly but gradually replaced God with Moses (Jesus) and made Moses (Jesus) a second person in the being of God… distorting both images of God and Moses (Christ), and would not believe that it was God whose idea it was to send them a deliverer in the first place!

I didn't remember the scripture of Ex 7:1 but was thinking about “…he called them Gods/gods to whom the word of the Lord came…” Ex 7:1 certainly confirms that and I can't help being excited that you are wherever you are and having similar thoughts as relates to this topic!

Although Jesus is the greater, here are some of the similarities that I think they shared, off the top of my head. I welcome others' insights and thoughts as well.

God called and sent out both
Both were prophets of the Most High and were equipped by God with power and authority
Both were bearers of the righteous covenants of God (law and spirit)
Both were used as deliverers
Each bore witness of the other (Moses of Christ in Deut 18:15f)
Dealing w/ the people cost Moses the promised land in terms of personal sacrifice; Moses pleaded with God at his own expense that God might not destroy the people, if it meant blotting out his own name…so in that regard, like Jesus, he was willing to lay down his life for the sheep
Both appeared with Elijah at the Mount of ?Transfiguration
Both wrote the song in Rev 15:3f to the Eternal God whom they worship.

March 13, 2006 at 3:41 am#18217

kenrch

Participant

Jesus was made like the first Adam. NO more no less.

Luk 10:21 In that hour the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy. Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these things from wise and intelligent people and revealing them to little children. Yes, Father, this is what pleased you.

Jesus wasn't full of the spirit all the time. He was just as we are but without sin.
“In that hour” the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy.

March 13, 2006 at 4:14 am#18218

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 12 2006,22:41)

Jesus was made like the first Adam. NO more no less.

Jesus wasn't full of the spirit all the time. He was just as we are but without sin.
“In that hour” the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy.

Quote

Jesus wasn't full of the spirit all the time. He was just as we are but without sin.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,(Col. 2:9)

The scripture you quoted (Luke 10:21) says the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy, but gives no reference to whether or not He was filled with the spirit.

The Bible tells us that all the fulness of Deity dwelt in Christ.

The scriptures tell us also to be filled with the spirit (Eph.5:18).

Quote

Jesus was made like the first Adam. NO more no less.

Also Jesus was not made like the first Adam. Jesus was not formed from the dust of the ground, but was begotten. Jesus has a right the first Adam never shared, and that is Jesus is the Only begotten Son of God.

March 13, 2006 at 4:17 am#18219

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 12 2006,22:26)

Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 13 2006,00:19)

Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2006,17:34)

JOHN 1:14
“So the Word BECAME flesh and resided among us….”

ROMANS 1:3
“concerning his Son, who sprang from the seed of David according to the flesh,”

PHILIPPIANS 2:7
“No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”

david.

Also a side note:
So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. (Exo. 7:1)

Yahweh made Moses God to pharoah. What qualifications did Moses possess to obtain this standing, and how does this parrallel with Jesus?

Hi Sultan,

Although Jesus is the greater, here are some of the similarities that I think they shared, off the top of my head. I welcome others' insights and thoughts as well.

God called and sent out both

Both were prophets of the Most High and were equipped by God with power and authority

Both were bearers of the righteous covenants of God (law and spirit)

Both were used as deliverers

Each bore witness of the other (Moses of Christ in Deut 18:15f)

Dealing w/ the people cost Moses the promised land in terms of personal sacrifice; Moses pleaded with God at his own expense that God might not destroy the people, if it meant blotting out his own name…so in that regard, like Jesus, he was willing to lay down his life for the sheep

Both appeared with Elijah at the Mount of ?Transfiguration

Both wrote the song in Rev 15:3f to the Eternal God whom they worship.

Cubes,

Thanks for the confirmation. I found Exo. 7:1 an interesting scripture, and beleive that it shows that because someone is called God does not make him the Father, or co-equal. There is only one Father and one Lord Jesus. All the rest is speculatioin based on pre-conceived ideas.

March 13, 2006 at 4:45 am#18220

Participant

Amen! Sultan.

March 13, 2006 at 6:41 am#18221

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 13 2006,00:19)

Also a side note:
So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. (Exo. 7:1)

Yahweh made Moses God to pharoah. What qualifications did Moses possess to obtain this standing, and how does this parrallel with Jesus?

Untrue, read it carefully Sultan.

EXODUS 7:1
So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you AS God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. [/b]

“As” is a very important word in this verse. This is akin to God saying I have made you like God (refer the NIV version) to Pharaoh. I can make you as a woman by making you wear a dress, wig and makeup – but you wouldn't be an actual woman would you? No, you would be like one.

March 13, 2006 at 3:56 pm#18222

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 13 2006,06:41)

Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 13 2006,00:19)

Also a side note:
So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. (Exo. 7:1)

Yahweh made Moses God to pharoah. What qualifications did Moses possess to obtain this standing, and how does this parrallel with Jesus?

Untrue, read it carefully Sultan.

EXODUS 7:1
So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you AS God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. [/b]

Hi Is 1:18:

This is not intended to disregard your point, as it is important that we hold each other accountable and I in fact thank God that we should have such accountability. Having said that,
let's consider the verse again. Here is what the KJV says:

Exd 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Scripture tells us (and the translators) that Moses is not YHWH, and he is not, so they rightly translated it “as `Elohiym/elohiym,” being guided by the whole of scripture.

Again, I know nothing about Hebrew except for what I see in the lexicon but the lexicon shows nothing about “as” or “a”.
“…nathan `Elohiym/`elohiym par`oh…”

Do you see my point? It is a point that is applicable in John 1:1 and the fact that it is not indicates a trinitarian bias with the translators when you translate John 1:1 with Ps 40:5-6 and the many other scriptures, for it is scripture that interprets scripture so in this case your call is right about Exodus 7:1 since we all know that Moses is not God. Still God wanted Pharoah to perceive Moses as (a) God/god, having the backing of God Most High in Authority. Aaron became the God/god Moses' prophet! It was Moses who by YHWH's will and instructions anointed Aaron to be high priest. Again, here, the Trinity is refuted.

It would be hoped that as Moses preached YHWH (just as Jesus preached YHWH), Pharoah would believe that the God/god Moses was sent to him by the Most High God YHWH, the God of Moses! Moses was not silent about it and neither was Jesus. Hallelujah!

March 13, 2006 at 5:06 pm#18223

OneoftheLordsGenerals

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2006,22:34)

JOHN 1:14
“So the Word BECAME flesh and resided among us….”

ROMANS 1:3
“concerning his Son, who sprang from the seed of David according to the flesh,”

PHILIPPIANS 2:7
“No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”

david.

Bad math, since when is God subject to math.

Genesis 2:24
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall become united and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. [Matt 19:5; I Cor 6:16; Eph 5:31-33 ]

Malachi 2:15
And did not God make [you and your wife] one [flesh]? Did not One make you and preserve your spirit alive? And why [did God make you two] one? Because He sought a godly offspring [from your union]. Therefore take heed to yourselves, and let no one deal treacherously and be faithless to the wife of his youth.

Matthew 19:5
And said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be united firmly (joined inseparably) to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? [Gen 1:27; 2:24 ]

Matthew 19:6
So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder (separate).

Mark 10:8
And the two shall become one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. [Gen 2:24 ]

1 Corinthians 6:16
Or do you not know and realize that when a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? The two, it is written, shall become one flesh. [Gen 2:24 ]

Ephesians 5:31
For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. [Gen 2:24 ]

So man can join with woman and become one flesh. Hmmm 1+1=1. Thats bad math too. Yet we know that its truly evident. Why can't God be 1x1x1=1. Or is God not allowed to do so.
Father(1 persona)xSon(1 persona)xHoly Spirit(1 persona)=God(1 True God)

Many questions that can't be explained away arise if our God is not Tri-une. Here is a huge one. From your perspective;

How can the Son(a god) have more love than the Father(God) whom sent him? 1 John 4:8 & 16-God is love, John 15:13-Jesus lays down his life for all.

And yes Jesus was both God and man. The Word(God the Son) became flesh as Jesus(Son of Man). Jesus on earth was 100% man, overcame things through trust and adherence to the Father's will. Which yes as a man seeing that he was in a humbler place, did not see that equality with God(The Father). So he is 100% man(still having the abilty to use his Divine powers, but because the Love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was so great that Jesus didn't use them) and 100% God.
As Jeus he was a man, yet as soon as he was risen, he was restored to the Glory he once had. Now being both 100% God(The Word became flesh) and 100% man(Jesus as the mortal example)=100% God and 100% man. Son of God, Son of Man. Two titles given to him, Being God the Son(Son of the Father) and Son of Man(David's seed).

It is hard to understand, that I agree. I never disagree that there is One God. I totally believe that, 100%. I believe in the tri-uneness of God. He revealed Himself to us in the Three personas. As the Father, as the Son, and as the Holy Spirit. Three personas=ONE GOD. Scripture does say this, yet people try to argue the fact, well how can Jesus say God is his God, and how can Jesus say that THe Father is greater than he is? Easily, the man Jesus(THe Flesh and bones part) was lesser than THe Father and being the mortal example, he made himself humble to God The Father. Yet The Word which dwelled in Him was God. The Son seeing equality with The father something not to be grasped because he was in the Form of Flesh, a human, humbled himself to do what the Godhead set out to do. Save the World. So the Godhead was made up of The Father, The Son(now Jesus), and The Holy Spirit which resides on Jesus(the mortal example). So the Word who was God(The Son, second part of the tri-une God) emptied himself to save the world. So that a blood atonement could be made to forgive all sins. An eternal price(sin) paid by an eternal sacrifice(The Word who was God, which became flesh in order to bring salvation), also a mortal example(Jesus Christ) for the rest of mortal man(everyone else) of how to live your life.

March 13, 2006 at 5:50 pm#18224

OneoftheLordsGenerals

Participant

Also, i have had a disagreement with someone on the use of worship. With much study and advice from some greek-hebrew experts. I have found out that the Hebrew form of worship(OT) is the same Greek form of worship(NT). See the bible was done in Hebrew in the Old testament before the Roman empire had control of the area. When Rome came to power, the language of the area was influenced and most people used the basic greek language which is why the New testament was written in greek. The word for worship in Hebrew is the same as the word used for worship in Greek. same exact meaning. So jesus was worshipped just as the Father in the OT was worshipped.

March 13, 2006 at 6:27 pm#18225

Participant

Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 13 2006,17:50)

Hope to see you in the worship thread where we can explore this further.

March 13, 2006 at 6:42 pm#18226

Participant

Hi OOTLG,
I agree with the scriptures you've just cited relating to man and woman being one and perceive Jesus and the Father similarly. In fact, it is a union which extends to us. You however cannot use those to defend the trinity because the trinity holds to equality between 3 persons, whereas the scriptures show that there is a definite authority structure:

The head of woman is man
The head of man is Christ
The head of Christ is God

If the Trinity didn't, we'd probably have no need for debate because we'd all understand and agree that YHWH is God of all and has made Jesus Lord over all creation.

March 13, 2006 at 11:51 pm#18227

Participant

Quote

Bad math, since when is God subject to math.

He's not subject to math. He created it, and we are subject to it.

In math class, I learned that the most you can have of something is 100%.
If Jesus “emptied himself,” and took on a slaves form and “BECAME part flesh”… wait, it actually says he “became flesh,” not part flesh, part God.
How was he like his brothers?
HEBREWS 2:17
“Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people.”
Were his brothers 100% flesh and 100% God? No. They were flesh. Was Jesus like his brothers? Yes, “IN ALL RESPECTS.”

Quote

Many questions that can't be explained away arise if our God is not Tri-une. Here is a huge one. From your perspective;

How can the Son(a god) have more love than the Father(God) whom sent him? 1 John 4:8 & 16-God is love, John 15:13-Jesus lays down his life for all.

Right, here are the scriptures:
About GOD
1 JOHN 4:8
“He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.”
1 JOHN 4:16
“And we ourselves have come to know and have believed the love that God has in our case. God is love, and he that remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him.”

About JESUS
JOHN 15:13
“NO ONE has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends.”

Do you really think John 15:13 applies also to God, that he is part of the “no one.”

I searched the expression “no one” in the Bible, and the second occurrence I found was this:
GENESIS 41:39
“After that Phaŕaoh said to Joseph: “Since God has caused you to know all this, there is NO ONE as discreet and wise as you are.”
So, if your theory stands, and “no one has love greater than this,” applies to everyone including Jehovah, this scripture in Genesis would as well wouldn’t it, when it says: “there is no one as discreet and wise as you are.”
So, if we apply your reasoning to the use of “no one,” then Jehovah isn’t the most wise.

Keep in mind this is only the second occurrence where “no one” occurs and there are about 307 times. I'm sure I could find much better examples.

Here are some other interesting occurrences of the expression “no one”:
EXODUS 8:10
“….there is no one else like Jehovah our God,”

1 SAMUEL 2:2
“There is no one holy like Jehovah, for there is no one but you.”

Where does any scriptures say anything like that about the holy spirit?

As well, in the Bible we see that sometimes there are obvious exception to things that are obvious.
For example:
EPHESIANS 1:22
“He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation,”
HEBREWS 2:8
“All things you subjected under his feet.” For in that he subjected all things to him [God] left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him;”
Some might look at this and say: It seems that God subjected “all things” under Jesus’ feet. So Jesus will have “all” in subjection to him, and that this would include God.
But it should be evident that this doesn't include God.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:27-28
“For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ IT IS EVIDENT THAT IT IS WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE ONE WHO SUBJECTED ALL THINGS TO HIM. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”

Quote

So he is 100% man(still having the abilty to use his Divine powers,

I remember him praying to God a lot before he performed these miracles. And I remember the apostles and prophets also praying to God and performing miracles.

Quote

It is hard to understand, that I agree.

Most everything having to do with the theory of the trinity is hard to understand. Most everything.

Quote

well how can Jesus say God is his God, and how can Jesus say that THe Father is greater than he is? Easily, the man Jesus(THe Flesh and bones part) was lesser than THe Father and being the mortal example

Right, Jesus, because he was in fleshly form could say: The father is greater than me…..etc, etc, you say.

Mark 13:32, RS: “Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
So you say this is because Jesus was a human at the time.
If the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?

And in this particular case, we can't really use the same argument I used above about “no one” knowing, because it says: not even the angels, or the Son, but 'ONLY' the Father, very specifically showing that not even His son was included.
So why didn't the holy spirit know, if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead?
Seems a mystery.
In your words:

Quote

It is hard to understand, that I agree.

March 13, 2006 at 11:59 pm#18228

Participant

Quote

Sure, ya, ok, so what is the word?

Even if what you said was true, which it isn't, (sorry, it's just not) there are a variety of shades of meaning to both the Hebrew and Greek words that are sometimes translated “worship” in your Bible. Both of them definitely don't always mean “worship.” That is clear.
You have to look at the context. Please go back and look at my post on the use of the word “worship” in the Bible and the many ways that word is used and what means in different contexts.

david.

March 14, 2006 at 12:07 am#18229

Participant

Quote

Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 13 2006,17:50)
Also, i have had a disagreement with someone on the use of worship. With much study and advice from some greek-hebrew experts. I have found out that the Hebrew form of worship(OT) is the same Greek form of worship(NT). See the bible was done in Hebrew in the Old testament before the Roman empire had control of the area. When Rome came to power, the language of the area was influenced and most people used the basic greek language which is why the New testament was written in greek. The word for worship in Hebrew is the same as the word used for worship in Greek. same exact meaning. So jesus was worshipped just as the Father in the OT was worshipped.

Hope to see you in the worship thread where we can explore this further.

Hey cubes.
I didn't know there was a “worship” thread. I do feel that this subject belongs in the trinity thread though. “Jesus being worshiped,” or actually “Jesus being [insert appropriate Greek or Hebrew word that is sometimes translated 'worshiped']” is something that those who support the trinity theory hold as a strong argument that Jesus is God Almighty.

david.

March 14, 2006 at 12:58 am#18230

kenrch

Participant

Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 13 2006,04:14)

Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 12 2006,22:41)

Jesus was made like the first Adam. NO more no less.

Jesus wasn't full of the spirit all the time. He was just as we are but without sin.
“In that hour” the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy.

Quote

Jesus wasn't full of the spirit all the time. He was just as we are but without sin.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,(Col. 2:9)

The scripture you quoted (Luke 10:21) says the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy, but gives no reference to whether or not He was filled with the spirit.

The Bible tells us that all the fulness of Deity dwelt in Christ.

The scriptures tell us also to be filled with the spirit (Eph.5:18).

Quote

Jesus was made like the first Adam. NO more no less.

Sultan,
Jesus lowered Himself to our level. How else could He be tempted as we are. If He was God in flesh do you think that being tempted would bother Him.

Heb 2:14 Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 and might deliver all them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made LIKE UNTO HIS BREATHERN, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath “SUFFERED BEING TEMPTED”, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

Forget what they taught you.

March 14, 2006 at 2:05 am#18231

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 14 2006,00:07)

Quote

Hope to see you in the worship thread where we can explore this further.

david.

Hi David,

I found the worship thread and have posted a brief note in it to keep it with the current topics for the week. See you there.

March 14, 2006 at 2:37 am#18232