The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 01 2006,21:17)

Oneofthelordsgenerals,
I noticed that you have ignored my posts. So I am going to place them here again for your response. It is easy to just grab a bunch of scriptures that support what you say and paste them, but the Bible is a whole and there must be balance. So here is one of my questions for you from a previous post. Please respond. Thank you.

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Many say Christ has always been co-equal with the father, but Jesus says, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.( Mark 13:32-33).

The Trinity doctrine will in one place say that Christ is 100% man and 100% God and those two natures are indivisible. In other words Jesus is not man one minute and then God another minute, but He is both 100% of the time. Yet the Bible shows here that Jesus did not know something. How can Christ not know something if He is 100% God? Of course then the same trinitarians will say, “Well that is just His humanity speaking”. Yet the teaching of the operation of the hypostatic union is that these two natures are inseperable.

Remember Just scripture is not sufficient to prove the Trinity because the teaching of the Trinity is not plain scripture, it is also alot of theological jargin. So let's be reasonable. I am not trying to attack you I would just like answers. Thanks.

I apologize for not getting back to you Sultan. In this case i would have to disagree with the statement about him being both at the same time. I mean he is both, but not at the same time. Thats why it is hard to understand. He was the Word(John 1:1-100% God), Jesus(100% man/ still God though except sets aside his Divine Powers for our benefit).
I agree the Son did not know at the time, because he was man at the time. There is no denying this though, Jesus was God. A very large majority of translations read John 1-1-3 as this;
1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.(A)
2 He was present originally with God.

3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

(King James, New living, new american standard, and many more. Except NW, which says he is a god. Lower case g)

Hebrews 1:8 But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).

(How can you explain these away, except for saying well the Nw says other wise.)

John 20:28 Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!

(which by the way is the same in the NW also. Capitalized as it is capitalized in John 1:1. They were very clear to translate John 1:1 as a god but in John 20:28 as God.)

Many times in scripture, Jesus is called God and doesn't deny it or rebuke it. Many times in scripture men and angels are worshipped and in turn they are rebuked. Acts 10:25-26, Revelation 22:8,9;19:10, Romans 1:25. So why didn't Jesus rebuke anyone. So everyone who worshipped Jesus, was an Idolator, and that makes Jesus one also for not rebuking them. You say there are many different worships in Hebrew, why would a reverent God fearing nation like Isreal make multiple forms of the word worship? To confuse people? And if so, why didn't the Pharisees and Sadusees worship Jesus, maybe its because they knew what worship was and that is why they rebuked Jesus and his foloowers. They didn't realize who Jesus was, God in the flesh.

proskunew is forbidden when used for obeisance to men from a spiritual or religious motivation or purpose. The word is sometimes (but rarely) used in the New Testament non-religiously to refer to bowing in obeisance to a king, master, or other person in authority (see Matthew 18:26 – this usage is more common in the Old Testament). When used for religious honor, however, worship is forbidden toward any except God. In this sense, “worship” is like “lord,” “father,” “master,” etc. The words may be acceptably used for earthly, physical relationships (Ephesians 6:1-9; Colossians 3:21,22), but we are forbidden to use such as religious honor to men or created things (Matthew 23:8-12). [On Revelation 3:9, cf. to 1 Corinthians 14:25]

The concept of Deity distinguishes the Creator from the creature. Things which are created do not have the unique characteristics of God, do not do the unique works of God, and therefore should not be addressed by the unique names of God nor should they be worshipped.

Good page to check out, read some of it and it is compelling. Some insight. http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/deity-jesus-worship.php

March 4, 2006 at 9:46 pm#18175

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin….hip.php

Participant

I am sorry, but i can't respond to evryone of the statements pointed to me or written for me. Too many. So i will direct you to some interesting reading and let you go from there.(Phillipians 2:5-11 explains why Christ still subjects himself, yet is equal to God the Father)

http://www.montney.com/inspire/trinity.htm

http://www.afcministry.com(/What_do….ty.htm) and
(/Do_Christians_worship_three_Gods.htm) and
(/Trinity_false_from_Satan_pagan.htm) and
check out everything from the afcministry webpage

So there is no mystery to how God works? So you have figured it all out? You have danced around scripture that plainly states that Jesus is God, that the Holy Spirit is God. Scripture from ALL THE TRANSLATIONS. Read some of the things that are the same no matter what translation.

March 4, 2006 at 9:50 pm#18176

Participant

Here is some stuff from one of the sites.

VI. Jesus Deserves the Worship and Glory That Are Uniquely God's.

——————————————————————————–

Do the Scriptures claim that Jesus deserves worship, honor, and glory like God the Father does? Did faithful disciples worship Him before and after His resurrection? Was He God in the flesh?
Note: This article continues a series of studies about Jesus' Deity: His names, character, works, and honor. If you have not read the previous articles, then please click here to start at the beginning.

Just as only God deserves to wear certain unique names, possesses certain unique characteristics, and do certain unique works, so there are certain unique forms of worship and honor that belong only to God. Because God created and rules the whole creation, it follows that all created things must honor and worship Him. No man or other created being may rightly receive such worship. To give such honor to men or created beings constitutes blasphemy or idolatry.

A. Worship
Only God deserves to receive spiritual worship from men.
The New Testament word for worship (proskuneo) means to do obeisance, reverence, or acts of homage (see Thayer, Vine, and Arndt & Gingrich). This word is often used to describe men worshiping God: John 4:20-24; Revelation 4:10; 7:11; 11:16; 14:7; 19:4; 15:4; 1 Corinthians 14:25.

Many verses forbid worshiping men, angels, or any created thing.

Acts 10:25,26 – Cornelius fell down to worship Peter. Peter forbade it saying that he himself was just a man. God deserves worship, but men do not. (Cf. Acts 12:20-23; 14:8-18.)

Revelation 22:8,9; 19:10 – John sought to worship the angel, but the angel forbade it because he was a “fellow servant.” “Worship God.”

Romans 1:25 – People who worship and serve created things, rather than the Creator, have left the truth of God.

To worship any created thing – whether man, angel, heavenly body, or some other object in nature (mountain, ocean, etc.) – constitutes idolatry.

Only the true God deserves to be worshipped.

Matthew 4:9,10 – Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.

Revelation 9:20 – Idolatry is forbidden because it constitutes worship of someone other than God (Exodus 20:3-6; Deuteronomy 6:13-15; Revelation 14:9-11). [See also Exodus 34:14]

Note: proskunew is forbidden when used for obeisance to men from a spiritual or religious motivation or purpose. The word is sometimes (but rarely) used in the New Testament non-religiously to refer to bowing in obeisance to a king, master, or other person in authority (see Matthew 18:26 – this usage is more common in the Old Testament).

When used for religious honor, however, worship is forbidden toward any except God. In this sense, “worship” is like “lord,” “father,” “master,” etc. The words may be acceptably used for earthly, physical relationships (Ephesians 6:1-9; Colossians 3:21,22), but we are forbidden to use such as religious honor to men or created things (Matthew 23:8-12). [On Revelation 3:9, cf. to 1 Corinthians 14:25]

But Jesus received the unique worship God deserves.
He was often worshipped while He appeared on earth before His resurrection.

Matthew 8:2 – A leper came and worshipped Jesus. [9:18; 15:25; Mark 5:6]

Matthew 14:33 – After Jesus had calmed the storm, the disciples worshipped Him saying He was the Son of God.

John 9:38 – After Jesus had healed the blind man, He revealed Himself to be the Son of God (v35). The man said he believed, and he worshipped Jesus.

Note that such religious worship would have been blasphemy and should have been forbidden as it was in the case of Peter, the angel, etc., if Jesus had been just a man on earth.

Created beings also worship Him after His resurrection.

Matthew 28:9,17 – After His resurrection, His disciples worshipped Him. [Cf. John 20:28,29]

Luke 24:52 – Even after He had ascended back to heaven, they worshipped Him.

Hebrews 1:6 – Angels are instructed by God to worship Jesus.

Note that men were rebuked for worshipping men, angels, or created beings, but they were never rebuked for worshipping Jesus. Angels are even instructed by the Father to worship Jesus. The context of the above passages cannot fit the idea of obeisance to an earthly king or ruler. They refer to honoring Jesus as a religious authority – the very thing forbidden when offered to Peter, angels, etc.

Hence, Jesus accepted worship as an act of religious honor. The Scriptures, including Jesus' own teachings, would absolutely forbid this unless He possesses true Deity.

B. Glory and Honor
“Glory” (doxa) means “…praise, honor … magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace … majesty” – Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.

“Honor” (timh) means “…honor which belongs or is shown to one; the honor of one who outranks others, pre-eminence … veneration … deference, reverence…” – Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.

Like the words “power” and “wisdom,” both these words can properly be used to refer to men in the physical realm (Matthew 6:29; 1 Peter 1:24). But they are also used to describe a special degree of glory which no one but God can possess.

God receives a special, unique glory and honor.
Psalm 24:7-10 – Jehovah is the “King of glory.”

Psalm 29:3 – He is the “God of glory.” [Acts 7:2; cf. Isaiah 60:19; Galatians 1:5; etc.]

Revelation 4:9-11 – God deserves this glory because He created all things. Note again the distinction between the creature and the Creator. [Revelation 5:13; Romans 11:36]

Isaiah 42:8; 48:11 – This glory is unique to God in that He refuses to share it with anyone else. Idols and created things have no right to receive this glory.

It follows that it would be blasphemy for anyone but God to receive this unique kind of glory. If anyone does receive this glory with God's approval, then that one must possess Deity.

But Jesus receives the unique glory of God.
John 5:23 – All men should honor the Son “just as” they honor the Father. To fail to give this honor to the Son is to fail to properly honor the Father.

“Just as” (kathos) is translated “even as” in KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV (cf. Thayer and Arndt & Gingrich). Other examples of its use in comparisons is found in Luke 6:31; 11:30; 17:26; John 3:14; 2 Corinthians 10:7; Colossians 3:13; etc.

The significance of the word, when used in comparisons, is that one item or action is just like the other regarding the aspect in which they are being compared. Hence Jesus rightly receives honor just like the honor the Father receives. And if we refuse to give such honor to the Son, then we are refusing to honor the Father!

John 17:5 – Jesus prayed to the Father to “glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (NKJV, cf. NASB, NEB; others are similar – ASV, KJV). Jesus asks to be glorified together with the Father with the glory He possessed “with” (para) the Father from eternity.

The clear implication is that Jesus and the Father both possessed the same glory before the world began. Jesus, in coming to earth as a servant, did not then appear to possess that glory but appeared as a man (this is part of what he gave up on coming to earth – Philippians 2:6-8). But having nearly completed His work on earth (John 17:4) and being ready to ascend to the Father, Jesus anticipated receiving this glory again (Philippians 2:9-11).

However, we have already learned that no one but God can receive the glory God has (Isaiah 42:8; 48:11). Jesus did receive that glory with the approval of the Father. Therefore, Jesus possesses Dei
ty.

Revelation 5:12-14 – Both the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) were praised by the created things, who attributed to them “blessing and honor and glory and power.” Note that the same glory and honor belongs to both Father and Son.

Hebrews 1:3 – Jesus is the brightness of the Father's glory (or the effulgence or radiance of His glory). That glory which shines from the Father also shines from Jesus because He is the creator (v2), upholds all things (v3), and is the express image of God (v3).

1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1 – Jesus is called the “Lord of glory,” just as God in the Old Testament is called the “King of glory” (Psalm 24:7-10).

Note that the glory Jesus possesses is not just the glory possessed by men or angels. His glory is above that of angels (Hebrews 1:6,13). He is above all principality, power, might, dominion, and every name that is named (Ephesians 1:21; Philippians 2:9-11). No created being possesses the glory and honor Jesus does.

We have seen, however, that Jesus deserves the glory, honor, and worship of Deity even as the Father does. God forbids this to be given to any but Deity, but Jesus does receive it. This would be blasphemy if Jesus were not God.

Conclusion
If Jesus is not Deity, then who is He? To understand God we must realize that God is not part of the created things. God is the Creator, separate and far above the creatures. This distinction is made again and again in the passages we have studied. Jesus must be classed on one side or the other. Either he is a created being or else He is Deity. To say He is not Deity is to say He is a created being. To say He is not a created being is to say He is Deity. There are no other alternatives.

Men are creatures; angels are creatures that are above men. But Jesus is above the angels and is not classed with them (Hebrews chap. 1 – see especially vv 5,6,13). We have seen that He is not an angel nor an exalted man, but the Bible attributes to Him that which can only be said of God. We have learned that:

* Jesus is expressly stated to be God or to possess Deity.
* Jesus is called by names that may only be used for God.
* Jesus possesses characteristics that only God can possess.
* Jesus does work that only God can do.
* Jesus deserves worship and honor that only God deserves.

In all these areas Jesus is described as the Creator, not a created being. He is eternal, has the power, and did the work of creation. He deserves honor as the Creator. Clearly He is not to be classed with the created things but with Deity.

But we have also proved that there is only one true God who made the universe. If Jesus is “god,” He is not an idol nor a false god. Since He possesses Deity and there is only one true God, then He must possess true Deity, not some lesser form of deity. He must be included in the one true God or Godhead along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Finally, if Jesus is God then He always has been God and always will be God, since God's unique nature cannot change (Hebrews 13:8). God cannot cease to be God nor can God lose the characteristics of God. He can take on non-Divine characteristics as Jesus added the characteristics of a man when He came to earth, and He can limit the use of His powers in order to accomplish His Divine purposes as Jesus did on earth. But He cannot cease to be God and He cannot lose the power and characteristics of God.

Jesus possesses Deity.

March 4, 2006 at 11:10 pm#18177

Participant

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My Bible often uses the word “obeisance” where the word “proskuneo” occurs. When that word (proskuneo) is used with reference to God, then the word used is worship. You begin by explaining that that word means to do obeisance, reverence, pay homage. I agree.
This is what the word means and the Hebrew equivalent is similar. So everything else said after that above quote has to recognize that. There are definitely a number of scriptures in the Bible where that word is used with reference to humans. There is definitely a number of places where the English word “worship” doesn't fit. (See my earlier post.)

You are right, in quoting Jesus, where he said that Jehovah alone is deverving of worship. (It was a quote from the old testament, where God's name appeared.)
But the Greek word doesn't always mean “worship,” but more accurately, means what you described above.
So when we see others in the Bible where this word is applied, it must mean to do homage, obeisance, to show honour and respect, but can't really fit the English word “worship” otherwise, Jesus quoting of that verse wouldn't make sense.
Knowing what the word that is often translated “worship” really means and knowing that it definitely has been put in the wrong place some times in certain translations (KJ, see my earlier post) we can't just say: See, my bible has the word “worship” here. NO. The people that translated your Bible (who most likely have a trinitarian view) decided that that Greek word should be translated as “worship” in those places. But we must let the use of that word in the rest of the Bible determine how that word is used and when. To simply say, see, my Bible has….without knowing what the original word actually means is meaningless.

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But Jesus received the unique worship God deserves.
He was often worshipped while He appeared on earth before His resurrection.
Matthew 8:2 – A leper came and worshipped Jesus. [9:18; 15:25; Mark 5:6]

In this place, and the others you quoted, we must remember what you yourself quoted as bing the meaning of the Greek word: obeisance, pay homage.
Jesus himself said that it is Jehovah alone that should be “proskuneo.” Since this word sometimes DOES APPLY to others (Jesus included) in those cases it must be used in the main sense of the word, your definitions: obeisence, reverence, pay homage, and we must understand Jesus words there to mean “worship,” otherwise this can't make sense. It would be a contradiction.

March 6, 2006 at 10:39 pm#18178

Participant

Quote of the day:

“The founders of the early Christian church had no idea that the Trinity concept would evolve, be voted upon by politicians, forced by emperors and eventually become an integral part of Christianity such as we have it today. Is it any wonder that its “difficult” to explain?”

March 6, 2006 at 11:10 pm#18179

Participant

The Catholic Encyclopedia is often helpful:

“The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the OT … It is not, as already seen, directly and immediately the word of God. … The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.

New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967 edition, Vol. XIV, pp. 306, 304.)

March 6, 2006 at 11:14 pm#18180

Participant

In conjunction with the last quote, I think this is significant:

“People who adhere to sola scriptura (as they believe) often adhere in fact to a traditional school of interpretation of sola scriptura. Evangelical Protestants can be as much servants of tradition as Roman Catholics or Greek Orthodox Christians; only they don't realise that it is “tradition.”

F.F. Bruce

March 9, 2006 at 12:57 am#18181

Participant

The OT testament reveils the Trinity just not a lot. Its called progressive revelation. We as humans can never grasp who God is and what he is like in his fulness. He gives us just a little at a time. We start out with milk and work to solid food/meat.
1 Corinthians 3:
1 HOWEVER, BRETHREN, I could not talk to you as to spiritual [men], but as to nonspiritual [men of the flesh, in whom the carnal nature predominates], as to mere infants [in the new life] in Christ [[a]unable to talk yet!]
2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not yet strong enough [to be ready for it]; but even yet you are not strong enough [to be ready for it],

I mean a lot has changed since the OT. We no longer need to sacrifice bulls and lambs, we can eat pork, we can talk directly to the Most High without the Ark of the Covenent(High Priest), we have a greater understand of God's love and who he is through Jesus(his Son), we no longer have an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I mean we have been given greater freedoms and shown more love. I mean in Old Testament times the Ark was falling off and a man tried to push it back on and died doing so. Throughout scripture and time he shows us himself a little at a time.

I hold to no traditions, only to the Word of God. He reviels himself as thrre personas, one God. If there is no trinity then these questions i ask.

Why must we baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit? Matthew 28:19 (Is found in NW also)

Why in Genesis 1:26-27 does it go from Us(Our) to Him? Moses wasn't around when creation happened, so God revealed to him the words to say. So God is Us and Our(plural) and following verse he is Him and He (singular).

Why does Isaiah 9:6 call Jesus, Mighty God? Some say yes he is Mighty God but Jehovah is ALmighty God. Well here are some scriptures that call Jehovah Mighty God as well. Isaiah 10:21 and Jeremiah 32:18 says he is the mighty One.

Why do The Father, Jesus and, The Holy Spirit have the same God-like qualities? omnipotent Father-Genesis 18:14, Isaiah 43:13, Jeremiah 32:17, 27, Matthew 19:26,omnipotent Jesus-Daniel 7:13, 14, Matthew 28:18, 1 Peter 3:22, John 3:31, 35; 17:2, omnipotent Holy Spirit-Psalms 104:30. Check out this website—http://dianedew.com/godhead.htm for more info.

Why does the Son deserve as much honor as the Father? I mean if Jesus(The Son) is not God, shouldn't the Father receive more honor? John 5:18-23-its in the NW translation also

Why does Thomas say to Jesus, You are my Lord and my God? My God not a God, but Thomas' God. Whom he serves.

Well it seems that by NW translation(and also in others) that God manifested himself as flesh-1 Timothy 3:14-16. How can that be if Jehovah is God, yet Jesus isn't?

If noone has seen the Father, then who did Adam, Enock,and Noah walk with? Who did Moses see in the Burning Bush? Who did the High Priest see once a year, in the Holy of Holies? Who did the people see when God appeared to them? I mean John 1:18 says that noone has seen God except Jesus(The Son).

Why does Jesus say he is the First and Last, and say he is the Alpha and Omega, And Jehovah say the same thing? Only one of them can be first, or last. Thats the concept of First and Last.

These are just some of the questions one must face if they believe not in the Trinity. Check out some of the other sites i posted.

March 9, 2006 at 1:23 am#18182

Participant

OK then – if the trinity is so clearly taught all throughout the Bible, then why was it that “among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective”?

How do you explain the fact that the Catholics – the first church to ever teach the trinity – freely admit that the concept was not solidly established until the 4th century?

Answer: because it wasn't clearly taught in the Bible after all. This is addressed here.

There are 100% convincing arguments against the trinity proof texts that you provided, that I hope we can discuss in due course. At the moment I'm talking to david about heaven, and I'd like to leave it at that for now.

God bless
Sam

March 9, 2006 at 1:43 am#18183

Participant

First tings first, many of The First Church, the apostles new of the Trinity. Paul talks about it, John, etc.

Second, you are using the word of a church who is so far away from the voice of God. The Catholic church is powered by Demonic forces. You trust that there word now is truth, when they already lied to everyone once. If they believed in the Trinity and now say it is False, which satement they made is the truth? The one that agrees with you or me.

And there is 0% against the Doctrine of the Trinity. How comes noone answers my questions but love to bash my statements. All i have spoken has come from the word of God(bible). Not from myself or anyone else. I have even found scripture in others translations that prove the Trinity.

March 9, 2006 at 1:52 am#18184

Participant

Here is a very good site please check it out. I have checked out all sites projected to me, please do the same. This is for everyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity. http://www.equip.org/free/DJ535.htm

March 9, 2006 at 1:54 am#18185

Participant

Oh the Catholics definitely believe in the trinity – they just acknowledge that it's not taught in the Bible.

And it isn't – there is no passage in scripture anywhere that preaches a God that is three in one, it's as simple as that. If there is, show me.

Whenever you give quotes that support the trinity – you're only supporting the trinity because you already know what it is. I hope you see how that's circular.

I promise to get back to you about specific verses.

March 9, 2006 at 2:04 am#18186

http://www.equip.org/free/DJ535.htm

Participant

Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 09 2006,01:52)

Following is a quote from the website you linked to:

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Having defined the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, it becomes necessary, secondly, to demonstrate inductively from the Bible that it is true.

Ironically, they openly admit that the trinity is not taught in the Bible. There would hardly be any need to “demonstrate inductively” that the trinity was true, had it ever been preached in scripture that God was three in one. Would there?

Again, people only try to support the trinity because they already believe in it – this is circular. That's why the quote from FF Bruce a couple of posts above is so significant.

March 9, 2006 at 6:02 am#18187

Participant

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How comes noone answers my questions but love to bash my statements.

Well, give us a chance to see your questions. As far as what you said with regards to me pointing out that only Jehovah is ever called Almighty God, you said that Jesus is called Mighty God and Jehovah is called Mighty God. Yes, they are both Mighty. No question there.
But of the two, which one is called “Almighty” 48 times?
And which one is called “Almighty” zero times?
The point is obvious: Only Jehovah is ever described as “Almighty,” because he alone is Almighty. Being mighty and being All mighty are two very different things. We even refer to people as mighty sometimes. Who besides Jehovah God can be called “Almighty?” None of the Bible writers saw fit to do so.
PSALM 83:18
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
We never see descriptions like “Almighty” or “most high” with regards to Jesus. Sure, a trinitarian would say that this scripture also applies to Jesus, because they are a trinity. But the point is, nowhere does it specifically say what you believe, that Jesus is equal to Jehovah. If they are all the most high, why doesn't the Bible say the holy spirit is the Most High, or that Jesus is the Most High. Because, as any child will tell you, there can only be one who is the “most” of something, and in this case, Jehovah is the one described as the Most of something, the Most High, Almighty.

Sammo, I was going to say the exact same thing you did. I was even going to quote that same quote.
OneoftheLord'sgenerals, the Catholics strongly believe in the trinity. But even they admit what Sammo has pointed out.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

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And there is 0% against the Doctrine of the Trinity.

Are you kidding?
I have roughly 2000 scriptures that conflict with the 12 scriptures that have been twisted to form the trinity doctrine.
There are roughly a thousand scriptures that specifically call Jehovah God. A THOUSAND. Each of these is very clear in saying that Jehovah is God.
How many scriptures define the holy spirit as God?
Where are they all?
If they are all equally God, why so unequal in the use of the word “god” with reference to Jesus and the holy spirit?

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I hold to no traditions, only to the Word of God. He reviels himself as thrre personas, one God. If there is no trinity then these questions i ask.

Why must we baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit? Matthew 28:19 (Is found in NW also)

I'm sorry. Where in this scripture does it say that they are all God?
Where in this scripture does it say they are all equal?
Where does it say they are all un-created?
Where does it say they are all equal in knowledge, power, etc?
Actually, a better question–which part of the trinity doctrine does this prove? There are many places in the Bible where three are mentioned together, like Peter, James and John, repeatedly, not once. If we merely go by the fact that three are mentioned, then there is more proof that those three people are a trinity.
Again, what does this scripture proove?
To someone who hasn't been indoctrinated with a popular myth, it prooves nothing with regards to a trinity.

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Maybe I'm a little slow, but let us look at this scripture. I don't think that this prooves the trinity.
WAIT. DID YOU SEE THAT. I just said: “let us,” and then in the next sentence I said: “I.” I guess you and I General, are a trinity. Wait, there would have to be a third for there to be a trinity.
Where does this scripture teach that there are “three” that are equal in wisdom, strenght, knowledge, each of the same age, each equal and yet, not three?

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DANIEL 7:13-14
““I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.”
Jesus approaches God. He is 'GIVEN' rulership.
Notice the following scriptures where we see that God gives him rulership:
PSALM 2:6
“[Saying:] “I, even I, have installed my king Upon Zion, my holy mountain.””
PSALM 8:6
“You make him dominate over the works of your hands; Everything you have put under his feet:” (compare ps 89:27)
PSALM 110:2
“The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.””
MATTHEW 28:18
“And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”
LUKE 10:22
“All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father;
and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.””
1 CORINTHIANS 15:25
“For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.”
EPHESIANS 1:22
“He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation,”
REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

Jehovah God Almighty gives Jesus rulership, because it is his to give.
Your next scripture:
MATTHEW 28:18
“And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been GIVEN ME in heaven and on the earth.”
Who gave this authority to Jesus? Someone who has the power to bestow authority, perhaps?

Your next scripture:
1 PETER 3:22
“He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”
Jehovah “installed” him as king.
I used to work at a grocery store a long time ago. There was a manager who was above everyone, with people subject to him. But he was put there, as manager, by the OWNER. The manager works for the owner. The owner put him in that position, and this is EXACTLY how all those scriptures I quoted show things to be.

Your next scripture:
JOHN 3:31
“He that comes from above is over all others. He that is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. He that comes from heaven is over all others.”
ok, check this out:
1 CORINTHIANS 15:27
“For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.”
It is also evident, that the same thing applies to the similar scripture you showed–Jesus is above all others, “with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.”

Your next scripture:
JOHN 3:35
“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.”
Again, yes, the Father had to “give” these things to Jesus. He gave him this authority. What does that show?

Another scripture you show:
JOHN 17:2
“according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life.”
ok, none of these scriptures prooves the trinity in the slightest. Try harder.

This is getting long, so I'm going to post this before reading the second half of your post.

david

March 9, 2006 at 6:50 am#18188

Participant

I'll come back to Thomas.

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Well it seems that by NW translation(and also in others) that God manifested himself as flesh-1 Timothy 3:14-16. How can that be if Jehovah is God, yet Jesus isn't?

1 TIMOTHY 3:14-16
“I am writing you these things, though I am hoping to come to you shortly, but in case I am delayed, that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in God’s household, which is the congregation of [the] living God, a pillar and support of the truth. Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’”
Many Bible's say: “godly devotion…HE was made manifest in flesh.” Other scriptures that I don't even have to quote make it clear that Jesus is the one this is referring to.
Other Bibl'es translate it similarly. Some Bible's insert the word “christ” where “he” is. This is wrong. And still others, take the “godly devotion,” or “godliness,” and move that to where the “he” is. This is also wrong.
Certainly the bible makes clear that Jesus “became flesh,” “emptied himself and took on a slave's form,” but nowhere other than this scripture (which most Bible's translate differently) do we find the thought that God himself became flesh. So if this is some sort of proof, it is week on many levels.

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If noone has seen the Father, then who did Adam, Enock,and Noah walk with?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
EXODUS 33:20
“You are not able to see my face, because no MAN may see me and yet live.””
1 JOHN 4:12
“At no time has anyone beheld God.”
Yet, we know people did see Jesus. If anything, your statement goes against the trinity belief.
Since the Bible makes clear that no man may see God and live, when saying that these men of faith “walked” with God, the Bible is using the term in a metaphoric sense. It means that Enoch and Noah conducted themselves in a way that gave evidence of strong faith in God.
(For example, compare 2 Chronicles 7:17.)

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Who did Moses see in the Burning Bush? Who did the High Priest see once a year, in the Holy of Holies? Who did the people see when God appeared to them? I mean John 1:18 says that noone has seen God except Jesus(The Son).

Read these two scriptures to see the angel (God's representative) who Moses talked to in the thornbush: (Ex 3:2-5; De 33:16)
You mention this scripture:
JOHN 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”
I'm not sure what your point is. Please clarify.

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Why does Jesus say he is the First and Last, and say he is the Alpha and Omega, And Jehovah say the same thing? Only one of them can be first, or last. Thats the concept of First and Last.

To whom does this title properly belong?
(1) At Revelation 1:8, its owner is said to be God, the Almighty. In verse 11 according to KJ, that title is applied to one whose description thereafter shows him to be Jesus Christ. But scholars recognize the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 11 to be spurious, and so it does not appear in RS, NE, JB, NAB, Dy.
(2) Many translations of Revelation into Hebrew recognize that the one described in verse 8 is Jehovah, and so they restore the personal name of God there.
(3) Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)
(4) At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it.
(5) At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1) So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.

I'm going to go with Jesus' own words. Instead of announcing that he was God in the flesh, Jesus Christ said: “I am God’s Son.” (John 10:36)
Can't go wrong with believing that.

JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)

JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)

JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)

1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)

1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)

It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.

And then there was Thomas….

March 9, 2006 at 6:55 am#18189

Participant

One last thing in your post:

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Why does Thomas say to Jesus, You are my Lord and my God? My God not a God, but Thomas' God. Whom he serves.

John 20:28 (RS) reads: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”

There is no objection to referring to Jesus as “God,” if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as “gods.” (John 10:34, 35, RS; Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 (NW) Jesus is referred to as “the only-begotten god.” (See also Ro, By.) Isaiah 9:6 (RS) also prophetically describes Jesus as “Mighty God,” but not as the Almighty God. All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ being described as “a god,” or “divine,” at John 1:1 (NW, AT).

The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: “I am ascending . . . to my God and your God.” (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself “the only true God” or that Jesus is a Trinitarian “God the Son,” he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).

Just a couple of verses after John records the words in question, notice what he says:

JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.”

So what are we to believe with regard to Jesus?

March 9, 2006 at 7:04 am#18190

Sultan

Participant

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Why must we baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit? Matthew 28:19 (Is found in NW also)

Can you please show me in the Bible where the apostles baptized in the name of the Father,Son, and Holy Spirit?

March 9, 2006 at 7:18 am#18191