The Trinity Doctrine

[david]

no, I've only read the first paragraph so far.

[david]

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The people who called him Son of God were Peter and the rest of the Twelve, Paul, Nathaneul, Satan, Demons, different crowds of people, Mark, Luke, etc.

So, here is the next sentence.
Yes, the demons, Satan, Peter, the apostles, these are all ones who would truly know who Jesus was. He was, as they called him and as you say, the “Son of” God.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

You also choose to argue the lesser of Doctrine. Pick your battles David. You argue trivial things such as this. God knows where my heart is when I celebrate christmas. Not in that of paganism but in the Gloriousness of his birth and death/ resurrection. I don't celebrate Christmas for pagan worship but to praise The Father for sending his Son.
Each day deserves praise unto the Almighty. Each day is to show His Glory. This is one Day that exuberates His Glory. Each day is Blessed, it was on this day we saw the Salvation of His people come. So it is a day to be celebrated.
Scripture doesn't say exactly that -abortion- is wrong, smoking- is wrong, etc. Yet we know through scripture that certain acts are wrong. Offensive to our body/The Temple of God and to God. Are you saying that to celebrate the day that Jesus came is a sin? Or that in the nature in which it is celebrated now adays is a sin? Remember, God sees the inside(the heart), man sees the outside(what is being done).
My heart speaks louder than my words, and God knows my heart. So don't be quick to judge others(Matthew 7:1-2).
So David you don't celebrate a single holiday, not a single day like President's Day, or St. Patricks Day, or Valentine's Day, or Memorial Day, or the Fourth of July, etc.? And from what i am getting you also don't believe in the Trinity(which is fully scriptural), is that correct? And you call God Jehovah, is that correct?

So you say I am unscriptural for celebrating Christmas, Yet don't believe in The Trinity which is through-out scripture. You say that the word worship is different Hebrew/Greek translations from the WORSHIP of God, and the word WORSHIP for Jesus, yet call God,Jehovah, which is a mistranslation of the name of God in Hebrew(Yahweh)

You sound more like a Jehovahs Witness than a Christian. What church do you attend?

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

By the way Hebrews 1:8 cannot be argued. God The Father calls the Son(Jesus), God. How do you explain this?

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

And yes if you read further, I agree Jesus had God The Father as God. This was the example, that all men shall call him God. Jesus in accordance with scripture proved this. Yet Jesus as The Word was God.

[david]

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SCRIPTURES IN WHICH JESUS IS REFERRED TO AS GOD; Hebrews 1:8 But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).

Hebrews 1:8:

Revised Standard Version reads: “Of the Son he says, ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.’” (KJ, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, NAB have similar renderings.)

However, NW reads: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your throne forever and ever.’” (AT, Mo, TC, By convey the same idea.)

Which rendering is harmonious with the context? The preceding verses say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshiper of that God.

Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Obviously, the Bible writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God.
Rather, Psalm 45:6, in RS, reads “Your divine throne.” (NE says, “Your throne is like God’s throne.” JP [verse 7]: “Thy throne given of God.”) Solomon, who was possibly the king originally addressed in Psalm 45, was said to sit “upon Jehovah’s throne.” (1 Chron. 29:23, NW) In harmony with the fact that God is the “throne,” or Source and Upholder of Christ’s kingship, Daniel 7:13, 14 and Luke 1:32 show that God confers such authority on him.

Hebrews 1:8, 9 quotes from Psalm 45:6, 7, concerning which the Bible scholar B. F. Westcott states: “The LXX. admits of two renderings: [ho the·os´] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God . . . ) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God . . . ), and in apposition to [ho the·os´ sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God . . . ). . . . It is scarcely possible that [’Elo·him´] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho the·os´] is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’”—The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

So you are a Jehovahs Witness. You say God's name is Jehovah, you don't celebrate any holidays, you refer to The New World Translation(used by Jehovahs Witnesses), and don't believe Jesus is God.

[david]

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You also choose to argue the lesser of Doctrine. Pick your battles David. You argue trivial things such as this. God knows where my heart is when I celebrate christmas. Not in that of paganism but in the Gloriousness of his birth and death/ resurrection. I don't celebrate Christmas for pagan worship but to praise The Father for sending his Son. Each day deserves praise unto the Almighty. Each day is to show His Glory.

Yes, but to make this a little extreme, why pick a day like Dec 21 that may as well have been called Satan day, and choose that day to celebrate along with the pagans who are worshiping their false gods and doing the exact same practices that you are on that day? And why are you putting up trees and lights, etc, exchanging gifts? Because the pagans did. Changing the name to Christmas does not cancel out what God has seen. He knows where these customs come from. Calling a rose a daffodil, does not make it so. It is still a rose.
But we can discuss this in the appropriate thread.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

So you are a Jehovahs Witness. You say God's name is Jehovah, you don't celebrate any holidays, you refer to The New World Translation(used by Jehovahs Witnesses), and don't believe Jesus is God.

[david]

If you want to talk about paganism, perhaps we should talk about the origins of the trinity, as apposed to the paganism in your holidays. I'm curious as to what you think of this past post:

Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Syria, Buddhism and Hinduism all have had their trinities, way before the idea of a trinity was ever established in Christendom.
False religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon) (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole, or the world empire of false religion.
What influence did the very religious Babylon have on the world?
“Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.
When you look all over the world, you see many flood stories, with great similarities. Did they all come about by chance, and yet are so strikingly similar? Or was there one common origin? Of course there was–the actual flood. When the stories are so similar, it seems hard to believe that they arose that way by chance.
Ancient pagan cultures worshiped trinities. So did Jehovah, the true God give these pagan religions the idea of worshiping gods in groups of three? Unlikely. Well who did? Why are groups of threes so common? In Egypt there were even groups of threes of threes, called “eneads.” Why don’t we find any ancient cultures worshiping gods in groups of 4, or 5, or 6, or 22? There seems to be a commonality.
It wasn’t only “Egypt, Persia, and Greece” that felt the influence of Babylonian religion. There is a reason that the harlot or world empire of false religion is aptly named Babylon the Great. It is because Babylon stands for false religion and many false religious ideas were established in the very religious Babylon.
Did Christendom borrow the idea of the trinity and mold it to their beliefs (coincidentally, around the time of the apostasy) or did pagan religions all over the world somehow instinctively know to worship gods in threes, and that, even before Christians figured it out? Which is more reasonable?

An apostasy was foretold within the Christian congregation. Much of Christendom’s teachings have striking similarities with Babylon. Babylon had triads of gods.
What does it mean that ancient pagans were worshiping trinities for thousands of years before the “Christians” deciphered the trinity from the Bible?

Considering that Christendom has no problem adopting paganism, or “practicing paganism,” as Liljon concedes, and considering that the trinity is nowhere expressly taught in scripture but only said to be gleaned or implied and even referred to as a “mystery” by the pope, (remember, “babel” means “confusion” in Hebrew) how can you be so certain that the trinity doctrine that has been sculpted over time wasn’t borrowed from paganism? So many other things were.

[david]

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So you are a Jehovahs Witness. You say God's name is Jehovah, you don't celebrate any holidays, you refer to The New World Translation(used by Jehovahs Witnesses), and don't believe Jesus is God.

You should refer to the “5 common fallacies” thread, where it discusses differing ways of falsely arguing with people.

[david]

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Are you saying that to celebrate the day that Jesus came is a sin?

I'm saying LYING about it is.
I'm saying covering his birth with lies and paganism is certainly a sin, yes.

I'm saying simply that most every aspect of Christmas either originates in paganism or is a lie–except for the fact that Jesus was actually born.

I wonder what Jesus would think if he knew you picked the date of birth of one of his enemies to celebrate his birth?

[david]

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Scripture doesn't say exactly that -abortion- is wrong, smoking- is wrong, etc. Yet we know through scripture that certain acts are wrong.

Exactly, and neither does the Bible say that Christmas or the trinity are wrong. Neither word are found in scripture. But we can discern about these things from other scriptures. When the Israelites made the golden calf and called it “a celebration to Jehovah,” which it certainly wasn't, was Jehovah pleased? How many people died that day?

[david]

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So David you don't celebrate a single holiday, not a single day like President's Day, or St. Patricks Day, or Valentine's Day, or Memorial Day, or the Fourth of July, etc.? And from what i am getting you also don't believe in the Trinity(which is fully scriptural), is that correct? And you call God Jehovah, is that correct?

See the fallacies thread. Don't use those tactics. They proove nothing.

[david]

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So you say I am unscriptural for celebrating Christmas, Yet don't believe in The Trinity which is through-out scripture. You say that the word worship is different Hebrew/Greek translations from the WORSHIP of God, and the word WORSHIP for Jesus, yet call God,Jehovah, which is a mistranslation of the name of God in Hebrew(Yahweh) You sound more like a Jehovahs Witness than a Christian. What church do you attend?

You connect the two thoughts of me looking at the real meaning of the Greek and Hebrew words translated “worship” in most Bibles with the fact that I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, as though to discount what I say.

This is false reasoning. You seem to be using this method more. Please read the fallacies thread.

[david]

One of the lord's generals,
You say that the trinity doctrine cannot be disputed, and then you put down 5 or 6 scriptures, some of which may call Jesus by the word “mighty one,” God.
Do you know how many times Jehovah is actually called God in the Bible?
It's about 1000. About 1000 times we are specifically told that Jehovah (Yahweh if you like) is God. He alone is referred to as Almighty God, because he alone is the Most High. This is what Ps 83:18 says. He alone is the most high. Where does the Bible say anything like that of Jesus, that he is Almighty, or the most high?

PSALM 83:18
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.” (Compare KJ vesion)

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

Ok let's use The New World translation for your sake;

1 Timothy 3:14 I am writing you these things, though I am hoping to come to you shortly, 15 but in case I am delayed, that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in God’s household, which is the congregation of [the] living God, a pillar and support of the truth. 16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’

ISAIAH 9:4 For the yoke of their load and the rod upon their shoulders, the staff of the one driving them to work, you have shattered to pieces as in the day of Mid´i·an. 5 For every boot of the one tramping with tremors and the mantle rolled in blood have even come to be for burning as food for fire. 6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

(Here you call Jesus, Mighty God and Eternal Father)

JOHN 20:27 Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.” 28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”

(Here Jesus is still called God by Thomas, God not god. And he doesn't rebuke it)

2 CORINTHIANS 4:3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

PHILLIPIANS 2:5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

(God the Father, never says Jehovah God, But the first part of the trinity)

1 TIMOTHY 6:13 In the sight of God, who preserves all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 that you observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 This [manifestation] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, [he] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen.

(You say Jesus is the only one to have immortality, and only Potentate{only ruler to be bound by no law])

TITUS 2:11 For the undeserved kindness of God which brings salvation to all sorts of men has been manifested, 12 instructing us to repudiate ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave himself for us that he might deliver us from every sort of lawlessness and cleanse for himself a people peculiarly his own, zealous for fine works.

(We know through scripture that Jesus was the manifestation of God)

2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ:

(So do they share the same righteousness or is this talking about one person.)

JEREMIAH 23:5 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will certainly reign and act with discretion and execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel itself will reside in security. And this is his name with which he will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.”

(Jesus is this sprout whom is called, by NW Jehovah Is Our Righteosness. So whos righteoesness is it)

JOHN 17:9 I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those you have given me; because they are yours, 10 and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them.

(We know that God is glorified in all things yet Jesus says that he has been glorified among them. I thought we are to not boast in ourself and glorify ourself)

JOHN 1:13 YOU address me, ‘Teacher,’ and, ‘Lord,’ and YOU speak rightly, for I am such.

(Lord in Hebrew was Yahweh, or as you translated it, Jehovah)

REVELATION 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des. 19 Therefore write down the things you saw, and the things that are and the things that will take place after these.

IN CONNCETION WITH:
REVELATION 1:8 “I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

-ALSO-
REVELATION 22:12 “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. 14 Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.’
16 “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.’”

(So Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, and 'Jehovah' says he is the Alpha and Omega. They can't both be The Alpha and Omega, unless Jesus is God)

EXODUS 34:13 But their altars YOU people are to pull down, and their sacred pillars YOU are to shatter, and their sacred poles YOU are to cut down. 14 For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God;

(In NW prostrate is used. So as you are saying, Jesus is not Thee God he is a god(NWT John1:1).

DEUTERONOMY 6:13 Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve, and by his name you should swear. 14 YOU must not walk after other gods, any gods of the peoples who are all around YOU,

(So you follow Jesus(a god) you walk after him(follow his example).

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

No i have put down countless scriptures not just 5 or 6. You only take those which you want to dispute.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

Ok in that perspective, why do you have two Mighty Gods, mighty ones.

Jesus in Isaiah 9:6 and Jehovah(God) in Jeremiah 32:18. Jehovah here is called Mighty and not almighty.

I have a whole book here in which it shows photocopies of Watch Tower's, and official court documents in which false statements are made quite frequently. I have checked the originals which you might have. In which the Watch Tower has been claimed to be greatre than the word of God itself. And instances in which C. T. Russell is caught in numorous lies(Court Records).

I am finished with argueing with you, you have closed your heart before we began to discuss.

[Sultan]

Oneofthelordsgenerals,
I noticed that you have ignored my posts. So I am going to place them here again for your response. It is easy to just grab a bunch of scriptures that support what you say and paste them, but the Bible is a whole and there must be balance. So here is one of my questions for you from a previous post. Please respond. Thank you.

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Many say Christ has always been co-equal with the father, but Jesus says, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.( Mark 13:32-33). The Trinity doctrine will in one place say that Christ is 100% man and 100% God and those two natures are indivisible. In other words Jesus is not man one minute and then God another minute, but He is both 100% of the time. Yet the Bible shows here that Jesus did not know something. How can Christ not know something if He is 100% God? Of course then the same trinitarians will say, “Well that is just His humanity speaking”. Yet the teaching of the operation of the hypostatic union is that these two natures are inseperable.

Remember Just scripture is not sufficient to prove the Trinity because the teaching of the Trinity is not plain scripture, it is also alot of theological jargin. So let's be reasonable. I am not trying to attack you I would just like answers. Thanks.

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