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Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Feb. 24 2006,12:29) Passage 1 John 5:
20And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true–in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.
Colossians 2:
8See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men's ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah).9For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].
10And you [f]are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead–Father, Son and Holy Spirit–and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].
Micah 5:
1 NOW GATHER yourself in troops, O daughter of troops; a state of siege has been placed against us. They shall smite the ruler of Israel with a rod (a scepter) on the cheek.
2 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah; [yet] out of you shall One come forth for Me Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days (eternity).Jesus in 1 John 5:20 He is called God, in John 1:1-3 & 14 He is called God, in Isaiah He is called Mighty God, in Micah 5:1-2 He is eternal(without beginning or end).
There is just overwhelming scripture that states The Trinity as truth. Please look at the verses I have given. Pray upon this subject my brothers.
These scriptures are true, but they do not make the Trinity true. Notice your rational. You have something that you already believe (trinity), and now you proof text to prove what you already believe. My friend all I am saying is that if you read the Bible without a preconceived idea of the trinity doctine, at the end would you come the the conclusion that:The father is triune in nature, and that the Son is 100% God and 100% man indivisible through the hypostatic union, two complete natures that are inseperable, and that He is Co-eternal and Co-equal with God etc..
The answer is no because many of these terms do not come from the Bible.
I agree with the scriptures that you gave and will even give an additional one:
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor. 5:19)I believe the scriptures teach that God was in Christ. I don't have an arguement with that, but I don't believe the Trinity because it goes way beyond what the scriptures teach.
I used to believe the Trinity. I've written numerous papers on it's defence, I am well versed in the Heidelberg Catechism ( a reformed work on theology), Westminister confession, London Baptist confession, and many other works. The problem arises when you begin to study the whole doctine of the Trinity, not just the divine nature of Christ, but all of the assumptions that are made.
Many say Christ has always been co-equal with the father, but Jesus says, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.( Mark 13:32-33).
The Trinity doctrine will in one place say that Christ is 100% man and 100% God and those two natures are indivisible. In other words Jesus is not man one minute and then God another minute, but He is both 100% of the time. Yet the Bible shows here that Jesus did not know something. How can Christ not know something if He is 100% God? Of course then the same trinitarians will say, “Well that is just His humanity speaking”. Yet the teaching of the operation of the hypostatic union is that these two natures are inseperable.
Does the Bible contradict itself? NO. It is man, that is wrong. So yes I believe the Bible, but no I do not believe in a man made teaching called the Trinity. I hope this has calrified things a little for you, on at least my position on this topic.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 25 2006,08:13) I believe that a revelation from God shows that each side of the trinity argument is right and wrong.
I don't believe that Jesus was “created” but as God bought our reality into being (not creation, but the operating principals which support creation) Jesus was begotten, (brought forth from God being manifested new, with this new reality) in doing so he was “fully God”, but God was not fully in him (just as my body is fully me but “me” is more than my body). Just as our body and spirit is subject to our soul, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is subject to the Father. Spiritual matters are difficult to understand but matters of the soul are impossible (just as we cannot fathom the Father).The Old Testament talks of God creating the world and we always think Father, but as pointed out in the New Testament it was Jesus. The nature of the manifestation we call Jesus (pre-incarnate) is such that He was the working arm of God just as our body does the work of our soul and spirit within this reality.
This would mean that God as referred through out the Old Testament was actually Jesus For those of us in our reality Jesus is all we can perceive or understand of God (as anything else would be beyond our reality and hence beyond our understanding). When Jesus was here He introduced us to the Father (as one He had recently separated from), a relationship far beyond mans ability to understand with the revelation of the day. I believe God far exceeds our reality (all realities).
As we are body soul and spirit yet no one argues that a person made up of these 3 parts is a single entity, why would God being three part, (as we’re in his image), be a problem. When it came time to incarnate, the manifestation of God (the pre-incarnate Jesus) within this reality had to cease to exist so his essence could be born so as to be fully human (which is why up to that point God was one). Jesus the human with a divine nature, while He was here, is like when we die there is a separation of body from soul and spirit so too when Jesus was incarnate he became separate from the Father (as in independent of Him). And as after the resurrection our glorified body is united with our soul and spirit, this foreshadows the time when everything is brought under Christ’s feet He rejoins the Father (and Spirit) as God becomes All in All.
This revelation would seem to be in complete harmony with scripture and ties in all the good arguments from both sides of the trinity argument.
May God be praised.
Hi seekingtruth,Thanks for your post.
You made a point that if man is 3 parts then why not God, if we are made in his image.
But the Trinity teaches that God is a substance that spawns 3 personalities, i.e. one substances – 3 persons.
But man has a body, soul, and spirit. But does our spirit have a mind? Does our soul have a mind? Does our body have a mind? Are we 3 minds melded together in 1 substance?
No we are 1 mind that is enclosed in a body and has the spirit which gives us life/awareness. We are also given a new body and a new spirit, and yet you are still you. We may become a new creation, but it is still you because God saves your soul (you).
God too is actually 1 mind. He is the supreme mind. God is one.
But God begat (not created) a son. The Logos came from God and then was with him. God has divine nature, but he also shares his nature with others, including his son.
Paul teaches clearly that there is one God, the Father. And are you not yourself one mind/person. So God is clearly the Father.
However God the Father is an invisible Spirit. So when he communicated to us, he does it through his son, and often the son through his angel. So when people see God, they see his representives, for no man can see God.
1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….Or
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.Or
1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.The only God is invisible. That invisible God is the Father as the following scriptures show:
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.Also see Revelation 1:1 and Acts 7:35
“This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.Scripture teaches consistently that the Father is God and that Jesus is his son. That is why Jesus is called the son of God.
I have said this many times, so I hope that I don't sound too boring, but I believe that if people understood the difference between identity and nature, then there wouldn't be so much confusion.
There is one God (in identity), but there are many who share the nature of God. Just as there was one man Adam, and there are many who share that nature (mankind).
E.g., we are men, but we are not Adam. Yeshua has the nature of God, but he is not YHWH, he is Yeshua.
Quote Passage 1 John 5:
20And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true–in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.
The Amplified Bible, if this is what this is, would seem to have a trinitarian bias. Or at least, it interprets this scritpture that way, for example, inserting the word “[Man]” where it definitely is not found in scripture.OneoftheLord'sgenerals,
Who is this scripture talking about? Look at the preceeding verses:1 JOHN 5:18-20
“We know that every [person] that has been born from God does not practice sin, but the One born from God watches him, and the wicked one does not fasten his hold on him. We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one. But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.”
The whole of this scripture is talking about the true one and how Jesus came that we might know the true one (by means of his Son). Then, we find the phrase: “This is the true God and life everlasting.” These verses are not talking about Jesus as being the true one, but is talking about God and how through Jesus, we may be in union with the true one.
There are other verses that are much more clear and cannot be misunderstood, such as John 17:3, where a distinction is made between the two, and where the “only true God” is spoken of as sending forth his son.
JOHN 17:3
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”
Notice the distinction made between the only true God and his son, the one he sent forth. Usually, the one doing the sending is greater than the one sent, right?Let's look closer at that scritpure.
Believers in the Trinity doctrine hold that the demonstrative pronoun “this” (hou´tos) refers to its immediate antecedent, Jesus Christ. Many authoritative scholars do not accept this Trinitarian view. Cambridge University scholar B. F. Westcott wrote: “The most natural reference [of the pronoun hou´tos] is to the subject not locally nearest but dominant in the mind of the apostle.”
Thus, the apostle John had in mind Jesus’ Father.
German theologian Erich Haupt wrote: “It has to be determined whether the [hou´tos] of the next proposition refers to the locally and immediately preceding subject . . . or to the more distant antecedent God. . . . A testimony to the one true God seems more in harmony with the final warning against idols than a demonstration of the divinity of Christ.”Even A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Rome’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: “[Hou´tos]: as a climax to [verses] 18-20 the ref[erence] is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opp[osition to] paganism (v. 21).”
Often hou´tos, generally translated “this” or “this one,” does not refer to the immediately preceding subject of a phrase. Other scriptures illustrate the point. At 2 John 7, the same apostle and penman of the first letter wrote: “Many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This [hou´tos´] is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Here the pronoun cannot refer to the closest antecedent—Jesus. Obviously, “this” refers to those who denied Jesus. They collectively are “the deceiver and the antichrist.”
In his Gospel, the apostle John wrote: “Andrew the brother of Simon Peter was one of the two that heard what John said and followed Jesus. First this one [hou´tos] found his own brother, Simon.” (John 1:40, 41) It is evident that “this one” refers, not to the last person mentioned, but to Andrew. At 1 John 2:22, the apostle uses the same pronoun in a similar way.
Luke makes similar use of the pronoun, as seen at Acts 4:10, 11: “In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. This [hou´tos´] is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’” The pronoun “this” clearly does not refer to the man who was healed, though he is the one mentioned just before hou´tos. Certainly, “this” in verse 11 refers to Jesus Christ the Nazarene, who is the “cornerstone” on which the Christian congregation is founded.—Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:4-8.Acts 7:18, 19 also illustrates the point: “There rose a different king over Egypt, who did not know of Joseph. This one [hou´tos] used statecraft against our race.” “This one” who oppressed the Jews was, not Joseph, but Pharaoh, the king of Egypt.
Such passages confirm the observation made by Greek scholar Daniel Wallace, who says that for Greek demonstratives, “what might be the nearest antecedent contextually might not be the nearest antecedent in the author’s mind.”
Anyway, this scripture cannot be used as definitive proof of the trinity. The same is true with all the scriptures you put down. I have a question: Where is the holy spirit spoken of as being the only true God?
david??
The word “God” as used in the Old Testament refers to Who or What.
Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” since we know from John that Jesus created all things, then Genesis 1:1 could be read as, In the beginning Jesus created the heavens and the earth. At what point in the scriptures would “God” be referring to the Father?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 24 2006,13:13) This would mean that God as referred through out the Old Testament was actually Jesus
I agree Scriptureseeker.HEBREWS 10:7
5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
7″THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'”LUKE 24:25-27
25And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26″Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.JOHN 5:39
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about MeJOHN 5:46
“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 26 2006,01:40) Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 24 2006,13:13) This would mean that God as referred through out the Old Testament was actually Jesus
I agree Scriptureseeker.HEBREWS 10:7
5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
7″THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'”LUKE 24:25-27
25And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26″Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.JOHN 5:39
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about MeJOHN 5:46
“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
Oh so now the God of the Old Testament isn't the Father at all, but the son. Hmmm, is this where this Trinity doctrine leads men?Of course the Old Testament speaks of Christ and speaks of God's son. The scriptures certainly testify of Christ. But it doesn't say that Christ is God (YHWH), does it?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 25 2006,23:04) The word “God” as used in the Old Testament refers to Who or What. Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” since we know from John that Jesus created all things, then Genesis 1:1 could be read as, In the beginning Jesus created the heavens and the earth. At what point in the scriptures would “God” be referring to the Father?
To seekingtruth,It was God the Father that created all things, but he did it through his son. When God says “let US make man in our image”. It must be God speaking to the one whom he made all things through, which is Christ.
Hebrews 1:1-6
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”If anyone has doubts as to who Jesus is, the above verse is what you should believe. It is very descriptive about who and what Jesus is.
Notice that God and Jesus are spoken as 2 different identities.
One test you can apply to scripture to show how silly the Trinity doctrine is, would be to take out the word God in the bible and replace it with the word Trinity.
For example, the above scripture would read:
Hebrews 1:1-6 (NOTE: a Trinitarian application, not a correct translation)
1 In the past (The Trinity) spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he (The Trinity) has spoken to us by his Son, (now we have 4 because Jesus is now the son of the Trinity) whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of (The Trinity's) glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty (The Trinity) in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did (The Trinity) ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when (The Trinity) brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”If anyone teaches that God is (The Trinity), then they should be confident enough to use it in the place of the word God, after all that is what Trinitarians teach, is it not? However when you teach that God is a Trinity and then truly read scripture through that filter, you end up with 4 persons. The Trinity and the son of the Trinity makes 4.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 24 2006,23:04) The word “God” as used in the Old Testament refers to Who or What. Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” since we know from John that Jesus created all things, then Genesis 1:1 could be read as, In the beginning Jesus created the heavens and the earth. At what point in the scriptures would “God” be referring to the Father?
Placing Jesus' name in John 1 is inappropriate and out of context. In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth through His spoken Word and not through His begotten Son. It was through the Son that God reconciled the us to Him, but it was through His Word that He created the Heavens and the Earth.Herein lies another error of the teaching of the Trinity. When all are co-equal then there is no real authority,and understanding of roles and position get's confused, but according to scripture the God the Father created all thing alone and by Himself.
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:“ I am the LORD, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
Who frustrates the signs of the babblers,
And drives diviners mad;
Who turns wise men backward,
And makes their knowledge foolishness (Isa. 44:24-25)Now if the Trinity is true then this scripture would contradict Genesis 1:26 where the scriptures speaks of Us creating, but if we understand the Bible according to what it says, God the Father spoke, the Word created through the Spirit (power of God) then you could say Us (Father, His Word, and Spirit), Or God could say He did it alone. Because there is only one Creator. Yahweh. The Word was Yahwehs avenue to create, but He who commands the Word is greater than the Word. The Word was subject to Yahweh.
Just a side note:
The Word became flesh (John. 1:14)
Yahweh Highly exalted Jesus (Phil. 2:9)
When the end comes the Son will then again be subject to Yahweh and not co-equal.(1 Cor. 15:20-28)Yahweh gave Jesus the right to be on His right hand, and all power in heaven and Earth, and when redemption is complete (us, the earth,etc.) then the Son will be subject to Yahweh that Yahweh will be all in all. Of course the Trinitarians never believe that the Son is subject to the Father because according to them He is Co- Equal, but once again the Bible disagrees with their erroneous claims.
If you read the Bible without any preconcieved idea you won't necessarily see a lot of things you believe. Scripture points out beautifully the Trinity doctrine.
Passage 1 John 5:7:
So there are three witnesses [a]in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are OneJohn 1:
1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.(A)
2 He was present originally with God.3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
14 And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth
So we have the Word who is One with The Father and The Holy Spirit(1 John 5:7). The Word was God(John 1:1). The Word became flesh(John 1:14). We can all agree we are talking about Jesus Christ here in John. Jesus=Earthly name, Christ= The Anointed One, The Messiah.
When God came down to Moses as the burning bush, did he cease to be God. When the Holy Spirit came down like a dove onto Jesus alighting him. Alighting is: To come down and settle, as after flight: a sparrow alighting on a branch. So like a dove alighting, or resting on Jesus(physically) did he cease to be God. (Or for those who don't believe He is God and is lesser just proves more so that it doesn't cease to be The Holy Spirit even after it takes a form).
Yes Jesus is still God even though he died. He is 100% God, and 100% man. Jesus had to eat, bathe, go to the bathroom, clean his teeth, sleeep, etc. which makes him man. Yet he refers to himself at times as equal to God. He didn't come right out and say it, but when someone was suspecting Jesus of pointing to equality of God, they made it know to Jesus that it was blasphemy. They even at times tried to stone him, and he asked them was it because of what he did(performed miracles), or what he said(that he was the Son of God). They said “That you say you are equal to God”, and not one single time did he refute it. When thomas called him God, and Peter called him The Son of God, and many times over he was called God and not one single time did he refute it. He was worshipped by many(angels and people) and he knew the Torah inside and out, and knew that one must worship God alone, and still did not tell them to cease worshiping him.
Hebrews 1:
6 Moreover, when He brings the firstborn Son [d]again into the habitable world, He says, Let all the angels of God worship Him.7 Referring to the angels He says, [God] Who makes His angels winds and His ministering servants flames of fire;(A)
8 But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).
Just to let you know that i am not reading out of context, if you read before that, He(says)=God The Father. Even God The Father calls Jesus Christ God.
See the Trinity itself praises and Glorifies itself. God The Father glorifies his Son(Jesus Christ) and The Spirit(The Holy Spirit). The Son glorifies The Father(God The Father) and The Spirit(The Holy Spirit), and same with the Holy Spirit glorifing both Father and Son.
Many scriptures point to the Docrine of the Trinity(Three personas, One God).
Acts 20:
28 Take care and be on guard for yourselves and the whole flock over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you bishops and guardians, to shepherd (tend and feed and guide) the church of the Lord or [a]of God which He obtained for Himself [buying it and saving it for Himself] with His own blood.Hmmm, if Jesus isn't God then how did he shed His Own Blood. Also here in Acts stating The Holy Spirit appoints bishops and gaurdians. Now if He(The Holy Spirit is called He in many scripture verses and not it, defining it as a seperate persona then The Father and The Son) isn't God then where does he get the right to decide who is a church leader.
Titus 2:13 is another in which Jesus is called God. There are many scriptures in which we see the Trinity doctrine being taught.
Hi OneoftheLordsGenerals,
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
Most translations do not have the words ” the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” ; Apart from the King James translation, and a small amount of other translations.
Translators agree however, that the last part of this verse was added in later and is actually a footnote in the Textus Receptus, the Greek text that the King James Bible was translated from. Now this same verse in the NIV for example simply says the following:
1 John 5:7 (English-NIV)
For there are three that testify:How did the disputed words find there way into the New testament? Well here is an explanation that I cannot prove because I wasn't there at the time, but I offer it as a bit of history or one possible explanation:
The first published Greek NT was edited in 1516 by Catholic priest, scholar, and humanist Erasmus in 1516. This edition did not include the disputed words. A revised edition in 1519 also did not include these words. Erasmus was severely criticised by other Catholic priests for not including in Greek these words which were well-known to them from the Latin. Erasmus said that the words were left out simply because he did not find them in any of the Greek manuscripts he had examined, and promised to insert them if they were found in even one Greek manuscript.
An Irish monk deliberately fabricated such a manuscript to meet Erasmus' requirement. This manuscript (no. 61) was copied from an early manuscript which did not contain the words. The page in this manuscript containing the disputed words is on a special paper and has a glossy finish, unlike any other page in the manuscript. On the basis of this one 16th century deliberately falsified manuscript, Erasmus inserted the disputed words in his 3rd, 4th, and 5th editions of the Greek NT, though he protested that he did not believe the words were genuine.
Nearly all printed Greek NTs from Erasmus until the 19th century were simply reprints of Erasmus' 4th or 5th edition, and so the words continued to be printed in Greek as part of I John even though there is no sufficient evidence for their inclusion. Recent editions of the Greek NT follow the manuscript evidence and therefore do not insert the words.
The earliest English New Testament, the translation of Wycliffe in the 1380s, was made from medieval Latin manuscripts, and so it includes the disputed words, though it reads “son” instead of “word.” Tyndale's translation of 1525 was based on Erasmus' 3rd edition and so it included the words. In the 2nd and 3rd editions of his translation, Tyndale placed the disputed words in parentheses to show that their genuineness was doubtful. Several editions of the NT edited by Tyndale's assistant Miles Coverdale also placed the disputed words in parentheses or smaller type or both to show that they were disputed. Jugge's 1552 edition of Tyndale's NT omitted the parentheses and printed the words in standard type, a practice followed in later English Bibles, including the KJV (based on Beza's 1598 Greek NT, a virtual reprint of Erasmus' 4th edition). Recent conservative translations of the NT (ASV, NASB, NIV) delete the disputed words entirely or put them in a footnote because the evidence is conclusive that they were not an original part of John's letter. [Verse numbers were not added until 1551 in a Greek NT based on Erasmus' 4th edition]
Now 1 John 5:7 is about the closest verse in the Bible that hints at a Trinity and yet that verse is not actually scripture, rather a footnote that was inserted into some texts fraudently. In scripture we find that Jesus himself never taught the Trinity, on the contrary he taught us that his Father is his God and our God see John 20:17 (English-NIV)
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.If we try to push a doctrine that is not biblical then the scriptures are there to correct us according to 2 Timothy 3:16 (English-NIV)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousnessIf we continue to push a doctrine contrary to the scriptures then God hands us over to that way of thinking and we will reap the fruit of that doctrine. I have no problem understanding how some Christians got involved in worshipping Mary and the Saints. If we see men pushing to have the doctrine of the Trinity accepted then that pushing will complete its path and manifest to its extreme, so that not only is Jesus exalted to be equal with the Father but then we probably should exalt Mary as well, after all she is Jesus Mother and if Jesus is God then Mary must be the Mother of God and being the Mother of God means that she must also be sinless, for how can God have a mother who sinned? Now why not worship the saints after all if we can exalt Mary, then we should exalt the saints as they are legends and are worthy of special recognition?
I think history demonstrates to us that the wisdom of this doctrine as false wisdom because the fruit of that doctrine is bad. God allows such things to mature so he can judge it and also to allow such thinking to be exposed in the light in order for creation to witness the result of such deception. In fact God does the same thing with the Devil and his children. Remember that Jesus wants the tares (children of the devil) and wheat (children of God) to mature so all can be understood so that all things can be judged. This is the harvest and the harvest is the end of the world.
Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Feb. 26 2006,12:44) When God came down to Moses as the burning bush, did he cease to be God.
Hi OneoftheLordsGenerals,I don't want to seem like I am picky but I challenge your understanding of scripture in the hope that you will be stronger in your faith. I perceive that you are a man who loves God, so I will take advantage of that and hope that you will listen to my challenge for you, that your understanding of scripture maybe stronger.
We know that God came to Moses and Moses saw a bush as if it were burning. But how does a man see the Invisible God for surely God is invisible and He is Spirit.
1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ….1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.Now this invisible God is the Father as the following scriptures reveal:
John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Even the Book of Revelation that was given by God, who is invisible, gave the revelation to Christ, then to his angel, and then John.
Revelation 1:1 (English-NIV)
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,So was it God that Moses saw? Or was it God's glory and God's messenger? Scripture says the latter.
Exodus 3:1-14
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.The point to all this is that if we can understand that God speaks through his messengers, then we can realise that when God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, we are not suppose to misconstrue this to mean that Christ is God himself.
And if we know that no man can see God, but can see Jesus, then what are we to conclude?
Here is something I've wanted to mention or discuss for some time. I believe Sammo once alluded to it, saying he wanted to talk about it later. It's the word “worship,” or actually the words: pro·sky·ne´o (Greek) and hish·ta·chawah (Hebrew) and how these words are used in the Bible.
People on here like to quote those “worshiping” Jesus scritpures. And I don't think anyone has yet to comment on them.
DOES THE FACT THAT WORSHIP IS GIVEN TO JESUS PROVE THAT HE IS GOD?
At Hebrews 1:6, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus, according to the rendering of RS, TEV, KJ, JB, and NAB. NW says “do obeisance to.” At Matthew 14:33, Jesus’ disciples are said to have “worshiped” him, according to RS, TEV, KJ; other translations say that they “showed him reverence” (NAB), “bowed down before him” (JB), “fell at his feet” (NE), “did obeisance to him” (NW).
The Greek word rendered “worship” is pro·sky·ne´o, which 'A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature' says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716)
This is the term used at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus; at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus; at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah and at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business; at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.At Matthew 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from pro·sky·ne´o] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.” (At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is pro·sky·ne´o with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.
Hish·ta·chawah´ means, basically, “bow down.” (Ge 18:2) Such bowing might be done as an act of respect or deference toward another human, as to a king (1Sa 24:8; 2Sa 24:20; Ps 45:11), the high priest (1Sa 2:36), a prophet (2Ki 2:15), or other person of authority (Ge 37:9, 10; 42:6; Ru 2:8-10), to an elder relative (Ge 33:1-6; 48:11, 12; Ex 18:7; 1Ki 2:19), or even to strangers as an expression of courteous regard (Ge 19:1, 2). Abraham bowed down to the Canaanite sons of Heth from whom he sought to buy a burial place. (Ge 23:7) Isaac’s blessing on Jacob called for national groups and Jacob’s own “brothers” to bow down to him. (Ge 27:29; compare 49:8.) When men started to bow down before David’s son Absalom, he grabbed them and kissed them, evidently to further his political ambitions by making a show of putting himself on a level with them. (2Sa 15:5, 6) Mordecai refused to prostrate himself before Haman, not because he viewed the practice as wrong in itself, but doubtless because this high Persian official was an accursed Amalekite by descent.—Es 3:1-6.
From the above examples it is clear that this Hebrew term of itself does not necessarily have a religious sense or signify worship. Nevertheless, in a large number of cases it is used in connection with worship, either of the true God (Ex 24:1; Ps 95:6; Isa 27:13; 66:23) or of false gods. (De 4:19; 8:19; 11:16)
Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible, but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God. (Ex 23:24; 34:14) Similarly, the worshipful bowing down to religious images or to any created thing was positively condemned. (Ex 20:4, 5; Le 26:1; De 4:15-19; Isa 2:8, 9, 20, 21) Thus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, when certain of Jehovah’s servants prostrated themselves before angels, they only did so to show they recognized that these were God’s representatives, not to render obeisance to them as deities.—Jos 5:13-15; Ge 18:1-3.
The Greek pro·sky·ne´o corresponds closely to the Hebrew hish·ta·chawah´ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in pro·sky·ne´o as in hish·ta·chawah´, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb ky·ne´o, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.
As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether pro·sky·ne´o refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship.
Where reference is directly to God (Joh 4:20-24; 1Co 14:25; Re 4:10) or to false gods and their idols (Ac 7:43; Re 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God is understood. (Joh 12:20; Ac 8:27; 24:11; Heb 11:21; Re 11:1) On the other hand, the action of those of “the synagogue of Satan” who are made to “come and do obeisance” before the feet of Christians is clearly not worship.—Re 3:9.Obeisance to a human king is found in Jesus’ illustration at Matthew 18:26. It is evident that this was the kind of obeisance that the astrologers rendered to the child Jesus, “born king of the Jews,” that Herod professed interest in expressing, and that the soldiers mockingly rendered to Jesus before his impalement. They clearly did not view Jesus as God or as a deity. (Mt 2:2, 8; Mr 15:19)
MARK 15:19
“Also, they would hit him on the head with a reed and spit upon him and, bending their knees, they would do obeisance to him.”
Mark 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”
Many Bible's here have “paid homage to him,” or something similar. Yet, it is the same word, yet, clearly, they were not spitting on him and worshiping him.
While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where pro·sky·ne´o describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Mt 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Sa 25:23, 24; 2Sa 14:4-7; 1Ki 1:16; 2Ki 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.—Mt 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Lu 24:50-52; Joh 9:35, 38.While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him, and the angel or angels of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as “a fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God [toi The·oi´ pro·sky´ne·son].” (Ac 10:25, 26; Re 19:10; 22:8, 9) Evidently Christ’s coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God’s servants. He taught his disciples that “one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ” (Mt 23:8-12), for it
was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that “the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” (Re 19:10) Jesus was David’s Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Lu 20:41-43; Mt 12:42; Ac 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him.On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God, so that “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Php 2:9-11; compare Da 7:13, 14, 27.) Hebrews 1:6 also shows that even the angels render obeisance to the resurrected Jesus Christ. Many translations of this text here render pro·sky·ne´o as “worship,” while some render it by such expressions as “bow before” (AT; Yg) and ‘pay homage’ (NE).
No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures.
Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro·sky·ne´o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8) Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard. True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.” (Re 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1Ch 29:20; Re 5:13, 14; 21:22.) On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship”) are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hish·ta·chawah´ and pro·sky·ne´o.OK, that was a little long. I just want people to be aware what the words often translated “worship” in your Bible's actually mean, and the way they are used in the Bible.
david.
david,
I didn't have time to read all your post as it is midnight. Are you saying that worship to God and worship to Jesus is the same word?
I believe (as you may do) that Jesus is worshiped not as God, but as the son of God and the Lamb. So he is honoured as the Son and the Lamb, and we would do well to do the same.
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”T8 you say that what comes from you is not of you and is scripture. For this I shall show you that the Trinity is purely scriptural. First thing is first, I am not claiming that there are three gods. I claim three personas, One God. Second scripture overwhelmingly states the doctrine of the Trinity. I had sent you a pm and I am not sure why you have not re-sent it when i asked you too. Maybe you deleted it but that is ok. I will resay it as best as possible.
In Jewish custom, to call one the Son of God was to call him equal to God. This can be witnessed by many of thousands of Hebrew Scholars and Gods word. Now i have a whole list of scriptures which show a New Testament filled with people who call Jesus-God, or the Son of God, and worship him(T8 has a copy). The people who called him Son of God were Peter and the rest of the Twelve, Paul, Nathaneul, Satan, Demons, different crowds of people, Mark, Luke, etc. Jesus is even called God and doesn't rebuke it. That alone makes Jesus an idolater. So basically every person who wrote a book in the New Testament is a blasphemer(calling him the Son of God or God), an idolater for worshipping him, and not only that. But they are unrepentant for doing so. Not once do they ask God for forgiveness for these acts unto Jesus. Because they weren't sinful acts.
SCRIPTURES IN WHICH JESUS IS REFERRED TO AS GOD;
Hebrews 1:8 But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.(A)
John1:1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.(A)
-(Now some translations don't have HIMSELF but still say he was God, whom we know is Jesus Christ)-John 20:28 Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!
-(Speaking to Jesus he said this. Jesus did not deny it and rebuke him. Which would be blasphemy, and that means from a non-trinitarian veiw we have no salvation.[Jesus blasphemed/unrepentant=Jesus sinned=no perfect sacrifice=no salvation])-2 Peter1:1 SIMON PETER, a servant and apostle (special messenger) of Jesus Christ, to those who have received (obtained an equal privilege of) like precious faith with ourselves in and through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
Titus2:13 Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),
14 Who gave Himself on our behalf that He might redeem us (purchase our freedom) from all iniquity and purify for Himself a people [to be peculiarly His own, people who are] eager and enthusiastic about [living a life that is good and filled with] beneficial deeds.(A)
15 Tell [them all] these things. Urge (advise, encourage, warn) and rebuke with full authority. Let no one despise or disregard or think little of you [conduct yourself and your teaching so as to command respect].
-(We know that Jesus will come again, never said the Father will come, but the Son. Who is definitely called God here)-
Third, I come to a famous scripture. One you all might have read at one time or another.
John15:12 This is My commandment: that you love one another [just] as I have loved you.
13 No one has greater love [no one has shown stronger affection] than to lay down (give up) his own life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you keep on doing the things which I command you to do.
First things first again. I thought it was God's commandment to love one another. Its one of the Ten Commandments given to Moses by God. So whos is it, God's or Jesus'? Second how can Jesus have greater love than God(The Father) whom sent him. I mean if God loved us so greatly wouldn't he sacrifice himself, before sacrificing his Son. The Son(Jesus) died for us all so by this scripture, Jesus has more love for us than God. How can this be? For God is Love. And from a trinitarian point of veiw, Jesus is God so it makes sense. If Jesus is the Word(John 1:1=God) then he has The same love as the Father(God). The love of The Father, Son & Holy Spirit is the same love for all.(THREE PERSONAS, ONE GOD)
Also through-out scripture God is called the same things as Jesus is called. God in Ps. 106:21, Hosea 13:4, Isaiah 45:21 and 43:3,11, AS THE SAVIOR and Jesus in Acts 2:21, Acts 4:12, Romans 10:9, Jude 25 AS THE SAVIOR. There are many Scriptures for each and not enough room for all so i will give one or two for each. If you need more just PM me.
God as the Rock(Ex. 17:6), The First and The Last(Isa.44:6), I AM(Isa. 43:10), God(Jer. 32:18), Lord of Lords(Deut. 10:17), Creator(Isaiah 40:28), Light(Psalm 27:1), Judge(Gen.18:25 & Joel 3:12);and Jesus as the Rock(1 Cor. 10:4), The First and The Last(Rev.1:17),I AM(John 8:58), God(Isaiah 9:6), Lord of Lords(1 Timothy 6:15), Creator(John 1:3,Collosians 1:15-17,Hebrews 1:10), Light(John 8:12, 1:9), Judge(2 Tim.4:1,2 Cor.5:10)Now they both can't be these at the same time unless Jesus Christ(The Word made flesh) is God. The Word was God and became flesh(John 1:1-3); Jesus is 100% man(Hebrews 2:7&9, and the fact he had all the signs of being a man[eating, sleeping, etc.]) and 100% God(As the Word). Then we have this great scripture,
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.He was The Word(God) before, so he regains his Glory. Now in order for our sins to be forgiven, we need an eternal sacrifice for an eternal sentence. Sin=eternal seperation from God. So an eternal sacrifice was needed. The Word(God) as Jesus=eternal sacrifice, so we can choose either eternal reward or eternal seperation from God. Now Jesus Christ had to be fully man so that he could be an example. If he wasn't man then we have no hope in overcoming sin(with God's help). Everything he said and did was to show an example of how to live(calling God his God, saying your will not mine, etc.). So he was both God-to take away the eternal punishment of sacrifice and slavery to sin, and man-so we know that we are capible with God to overcome these things.
Now it isn't me who needs to prove the Trinity, because for thousands of years it was taught. From the early church and on. It is you who flows against the grain of the Gospel and God's Church. Not me. And i never say there are three Gods but one. Three personas,One God. And i never disagree that Jesus was a man. But he was so much more than that.
This is not just for T8 to read but everyone.Quote david, I didn't have time to read all your post as it is midnight. Are you saying that worship to God and worship to Jesus is the same word?
I believe (as you may do) that Jesus is worshiped not as God, but as the son of God and the Lamb. So he is honoured as the Son and the Lamb, and we would do well to do the same.
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”T8, you ask:
Am I saying that worship to Jesus and worship to God is the same word?
I'm saying that most Bible's translate the Hebrew and Greek words everywhere as “worship” and while that is one meaning (definitely whenever applied to God Almighty) those words have a much wider meaning. When we look at all the uses of these words in the Bible, this becomes clear.Mark 15:19 (New King James Version)
“Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”Were they worshiping? No.
Similarly, in many places, those Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to humans, who again, were not being worshipped, but were being bowed down to in respect.
When people bow before the queen, are they worshiping her? No. Yet, those same Hebrew and Greek words rendered worship would equally apply to what the person who bows to the qeen is doing.
At Matthew 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from pro·sky·ne´o] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”
(At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.)What I'm saying is that trinitarians cannot point to scriptures that talk about Jesus being worshiped without knowing what the Greek and Hebrew words actually meant. What I'm saying is that when those words are applied to Jehovah God, they definitely carry the idea of worship, but when applied to others, we can't assume that the same is true. We have to look at what those words actually mean.
This is the gist of what I said, T8.david
Quote Now i have a whole list of scriptures which show a New Testament filled with people who call Jesus-God, or the Son of God, and worship him
OneoftheLordsgenerals,
Please read the post before yours and the post after. Please try to understand how the word “worship” is used in the whole Bible, what it means, and what it doesn't. The English word “worship” is not the word used back then. Please look at the meanings of the orignal Greek and Hebrew words.david.
Quote So basically every person who wrote a book in the New Testament is a blasphemer(calling him the Son of God or God) It may have seemed like blasphemy to the scribes or pharisees to say that he was the son of God. But doing so wasn't wrong, for he was the Son of God. There are a few scriptures that refer to him as god, or Mighty God. But how does this compare to Jehovah, the ALmighty God? If human judges, angels, and Satan could be called gods (mighty ones) then certainly the Son of Almighy God could be called a Mighty God.
Do you know how many scriptures refer to Jehovah as the God of Jesus? There are at least a few. It appears Jesus has a God. Where does the Bible say that Jesus is the God of Jehovah, or that Jesus is the God of the holy spirit?
david
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