The Trinity Doctrine

[global]

BIBLICAL ARGUMENTS PART VII

The summary addresses the question of the triadic passages, i.e verses where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned together.

It gives this example:

Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Some may say this scripture shows us the trinity.

And then says:

Here are some commonly used scriptures that are used in this way:
„h 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 mentions the Spirit, Lord and God;
„h 2 Corinthians 13:14 lists Christ, God and the Holy Ghost [Spirit];
„h Galatians 4:4-6 lists God, Son and Spirit of his Son;
„h Ephesians 4:4-6 lists Spirit, Lord and God and
„h 1 Peter 1:2 lists God, Spirit and Jesus Christ.
If we were to accept such logic as proof of the Trinity, then maybe we should be led to believe that Peter, James and John are a Trinity because they are listed together. (See Luke 9:28.)

In fact we can identitfy 58 Triadic passages in the Bible which mention the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (I have listed them all below) and 8 Triadic passages referring to Peter James and John:

1. Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
2. Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
3. Mark 5:37 And He allowed no one to accompany Him, except Peter and James and John the brother of James.
4. Mark 9:2 Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them;
5. Mark 13:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately,
6. Mark 14:33 And He took with Him Peter and James and John, and began to be very distressed and troubled.
7. Luke 8:51 When He came to the house, He did not allow anyone to enter with Him, except Peter and John and James, and the girl¡¦s father and mother.
8. Luke 9:28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray.

I am quite glad you brought up these verses, for as you will see, the triadic passages of PJJ, reinforce the power of the 58 Trinity triadic passages that mention the FSHS (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

The PJJ triadic passages, do not prove PJJ are God, they only prove there is a reason behind why they are always grouped in sets of three. It is up to us to discover why God went out of His way to establish a pattern with the PJJ triadic passages.

Likewise the FSHS triadic passages do not tell us that the "three are one" etc. All they tell you is that there is something special and unique about the sets of three persons who are grouped together as a set. Triadic passages are powerful, because they prove, by WAY OF PATTERN, that the three persons have a special and unique working arrangement.

It is well known that PJJ shared a special relationship with Jesus, being his innermost circle of human co-workers. In the case of PJJ, they are called the "sons of thunder" and yes, they form a trinity of sorts indeed! They were their own unique subset of 3 disciples. This is proven in Mark 3:14-19, where the "sons of thunder" are singled out as a "trinity" within the listing of all the twelve apostles.

The triadic passages prove that EACH MEMBER IS A PERSON. If the Holy Spirit is a person, Trinity is true and its game over for the Arians! This is one of the reasons the triadic passages are powerful. It is about as likely that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but electricity, as John is not a person, but is a personification of the disciples love and devotion and faith to the Lord.

But if John is a person, then so is the Holy Spirit a person! The patterns of triadic passages always group persons together. Remember, all a Trinitarian must prove is that all three members of the trinity are persons (specifically the Holy Spirit) and Jehovah¡¦s Witness and Christadelphian theology crumbles further into finer dust, than what it already is!

The key point is that Anti-Trinitarians are forced to group two persons with a non-personal thing (Holy Spirit = electricity). According to the Arians, God established a 58 fold pattern of "person, person, thing". Arians will hunt hard to find "that one verse" that will group "two persons and the Bible" together, thinking such is even remotely relevant as a rebuttal.

But these individual verses never form a pattern, with multiple repeated uses as do the triadic passages. When you see an elephant in the clouds it is merely a co-incidence, but 58 elephants in the clouds at the same time chained together trunk to tail, is a divine pattern! It is all about the clear and unmistakable pattern. It is the 8 fold pattern of the PJJ verses and the 58 fold pattern of FSHS that should send shock waves up every Arians spine!

Just as there is a specific purpose and reason why PJJ are mentioned together in an 8 fold pattern of verses, so too there is a specific purpose and reason why the FFHS are mentioned together in a 58 fold pattern of verses.

Patterns are in scripture for reasons. Now the divine trinity (FSHS) proves there is a special and unique relationship between the three persons mentioned. Even a simple overview shows that they are seen as equal partners in the purpose, plan, providence, love care and salvation of man.

If the Holy Spirit is "mere electricity", the triadic passages establish a pattern for a most unusual group: "two persons and a thing". Arian theology really has no way of accounting for the triadic passages. Why would God go out of his way to establish a pattern of the "Father, Son and the Father¡¦s power"? There simply is not reasonable explanation.

Trinitarians, on the other hand view the pattern of 58 triadic passages as exactly what you would expect, given the assumption of the trinity.

So your statement: " If we were to accept such logic as proof of the Trinity, then maybe we should be led to believe that Peter, James and John are a Trinity because they are listed together¡¨ is clearly in error because there was great significance attached to the grouping of PJJ: They were openly recognized by the other disciples as being special and were allowed access to places by Jesus that the other nine apostles were barred.

The 58 Triadic Passages ¡V

9. Isaiah 48:16 "And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit." (verses 12-13 actually identify the speaker in v16 "ME" as being the creator YHWH. Jesus what actually was sent, is called the creator in the New Testament: Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:10-12. The natural reading of Isa 48:16, is that the sender is the Father. The Jews simply had no way to explain how both the sender and the one sent (ME) could both be YHWH. This is a good example of doctrinal development between the Old and New Testament. Christians can easily make sense of the passage! So Isa 48:16 has YHWH sending another who is also YHWH. Of course Trinitarians know that all three members of the Godhead are called "YHWH". Anti-Trinitarians, can do no better than the Jews in explaining how the send and the one sent are both called YHWH in Isa 48:16! Combined with Isa 61:1, it is clear that the ME is Jesus!)
10. Isaiah 61:1: "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord (YHWH) has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; " (This is a certified triadic passage because Jesus applied the text to Himself in Luke 4:18-30)
11. Isaiah 63:8-10: "For He said, "Surely, they are My people, Sons who will not deal fa
lsely." So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence [lit: face] saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit" (The angel of His face is YHWH himself not a created angel: Ex 23:14-15, 20-23; 14:19; Num 20:16; Ex 33:12. Trinitarians expect to find this kind of passage in the Old Testament, that would not be fully understood until the mystery was revealed about the Trinity in the New Testament.)
12. Matthew 3:13-17; Luke 3:21-22: After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
13. Matthew 28:19: "baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"
14. Luke 1:35: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. "
15. Luke 4:1-12: "Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness for forty days, ¡K Jesus answered him, "It is written , ¡¥You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."
16. John 14:16: "I will ask the Father , and He will give you another Helper , that He may be with you forever"
17. John 20:21-22: "So Jesus said to them again, " Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit ."
18. Acts 1:7-8: "He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority ; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you
19. Acts 2:33: "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. "
20. Acts 2:38-39: "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
21. Acts 5:30-32: "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross… "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
22. Acts 7:55: "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God"
23. Acts 10:38: "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power"
24. Acts 10:44-48: "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message ¡K and exalting God ¡K And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
25. Acts 11:15-17: "the Holy Spirit fell upon them ¡K Therefore God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ?"
26. Acts 15:8-11: "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit ¡K we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus"
27. Acts 20:27-28: "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. "Be on guard ¡K for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "
28. Acts 28:25-31: "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers ¡K this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles ¡K preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ"
29. Romans 1:1-4: "Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, ¡K who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, "
30. Romans 5:5-6: "the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. "
31. Romans 8:2-4: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. ¡K God ¡K sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh ¡K walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. "
32. Romans 8:9 "indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. "
33. Romans 8:14-17: "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. ¡K you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ"
34. Romans 8:26-30: "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness ¡K the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words ¡K God causes all things to work together for good ¡K predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son"
35. Romans 15:16: "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. "
36. Romans 15:30: "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me,"
37. 1 Corinthians 2:2-5: "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified¡K in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would ¡K rest on the power of God."
38. 1 Corinthians 6:11: "inherit the kingdom of God. ¡K you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
39. 1 Corinthians 12:4-6: "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. "
40. 1 Corinthians 12:11-12,18: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. ¡K But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired."
41. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22: "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. "
42. 2 Corinthians 3:3-4: "written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God ¡K Such confidence we have through Christ toward God."
43. 2 Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
44. Galatians 3:1-5: "Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified ¡K does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you"
45. Galatians 3:14: "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith ¡K in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
46. Galatians 4:4-6: "God sent forth His Son ¡K God has sent forth the Spirit of H
is Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
47. Ephesians 1:3-13: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, " ¡K "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace " ¡K "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation¡Xhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, "
48. Ephesians 2:18: "for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. "
49. Ephesians 2:19-22: "God¡¦s household ¡K Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone ¡K a holy temple in the Lord ¡K dwelling of God in the Spirit."
50. Ephesians 3:16-17: "that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith"
51. Ephesians 4:4-6: "one Spirit ¡K one Lord ¡K one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
52. Ephesians 4:30-32: "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption ¡K forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."
53. Ephesians 5:18-20: "be filled with the Spirit ¡K singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father"
54. 1 Thessalonians 1:3-6: "hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father ¡Kin power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction ¡K with the joy of the Holy Spirit"
55. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: "always give thanks to God ¡K beloved by the Lord ¡K sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth ¡K the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
56. Titus 3:4-6: "the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, ¡K according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior"
57. Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation first spoken through the Lord ¡K God also testifying ¡K gifts of the Holy Spirit"
58. Hebrews 9:14: "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God"
59. Hebrews 10:29-31: "trampled under foot the Son of God ¡K has insulted the Spirit of grace ¡K It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. "
60. 1 Peter 1:2: "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood"
61. 1 Peter 3:18: "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; "
62. 1 Peter 4:14: "If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. "
63. 1 John 3:23-24: "we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ ¡K He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
64. 1 John 4:2: "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God"
65. 1 John 4:13-14: "He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. "
66. Jude 20-21: "praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. "

More Later.

Be Well.

[global]

<a name="historicalevidence">FURTHER HISTORICAL EVIDENCE OF BELIEF IN THE TRINITY AMOUNGST THE FIRST CHRISTIANS.</a>

50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript

50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus’] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: ‘Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, ‘What will you give me for my work?’ [Matt. 26:7-15]" (Huleatt fragments 1-3).
74 AD The Letter of Barnabas

74 AD The Letter of Barnabas "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, ‘Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,’ understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5).
80 AD Hermas

80 AD Hermas "The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that he became the Father’s adviser in his creation. Therefore also he is ancient" (The Shepherd 12).
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch

100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "We have also a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin." (Letter to the Ephesians.)
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "By the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God." (Letter to the Ephesians)
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her that hath found mercy in the bountifulness of the Father Most High and of Jesus Christ His only Son; to the church that is beloved and enlightened through the will of Him who willed all things that are, by faith and love towards Jesus Christ our God; even unto her that hath the presidency in the country of the region of the Romans…" (Letter to the Romans 1)
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Nothing visible is good. For our God Jesus Christ, being in the Father, is the more plainly visible. The Work is not of persuasiveness, but Christianity is a thing of might, whensoever it is hated by the world." (Letter to the Romans)
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "I give glory to Jesus Christ the God who bestowed such wisdom upon you" (Letter to the Smyraeans)
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . .. [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him" (Letter to the Magnesians 6-8).
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father and Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1).
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (Letter to the Ephesians, 18:2).
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1).
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "There is then one God and Father, and not two or three; One who is; and there is no other besides Him, the only true [God]. For "the Lord thy God," saith [the Scripture], "is one Lord." And again, "Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For "the only-begotten Son," saith [the Scripture], "who is in the bosom of the Father." And again, "One Lord Jesus Christ." And in another place, "What is His name, or what His Son’s name, that we may know? " And there is also one Paraclete. For "there is also," saith [the Scripture], "one Spirit," since "we have been called in one hope of our calling." And again, "We have drunk of one Spirit," with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] "worketh one and the self-same Spirit." There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honour." (Letter to the Philadelphians 2).
100 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Chapter VI.-Abstain from the Poison of Heretics. "I therefore, yet not I, but the love of Jesus Christ, entreat you that ye use Christian nourishment only, and abstain from herbage of a different kind; I mean heresy. For those [that are given to this] mix up Jesus Christ with their own poison, speaking things which are unworthy of credit, like those who administer a deadly drug in sweet wine, which he who is ignorant of does greedily take, with a fatal pleasure leading to his own death. I therefore, yet not I, out the love of Jesus Christ, "entreat you that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment." For there are some vain talkers and deceivers, not Christians, but Christ-betrayers, bearing about the name of Christ in deceit, and "corrupting the word" of the Gospel; while they intermix the poison of their deceit with their persuasive talk, as if they mingled aconite with sweet wine, that so he who drinks, being deceived in his taste by the very great sweetness of the draught, may incautiously meet with his death. One of the ancients gives us this advice, "Let no man be called good who mixes good with evil." For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power." (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians, Chap. VI)
140 AD Aristides

140 AD Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).
150 AD Justin Martyr

150 AD Justin Martyr "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63)
150 AD Justin Martyr "Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch, 36)
150 AD Justin Martyr "Moreover, in the diapsalm of the forty-sixth Psalm, reference is thus made to Christ: ‘God went up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 37)
150 AD Justin Martyr quotes Hebrews 1:8 to prove the Deity of Christ. "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever." (Dialogue with
Trypho, ch 56)
150 AD Justin Martyr "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." – Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63.
150 AD Justin Martyr in Chap. LXVI. He (Justin) Proves From Isaiah That God Was Born From A Virgin. (Chapter Title, Chap. LXVI)
150 AD Justin Martyr "And Trypho said, "You endeavor to prove an incredible and well-nigh impossible thing;[namely], that God endured to be born and become man…some Scriptures which we mention, and which expressly prove that Christ was to suffer, to be worshipped, and [to be called] God, and which I have already recited to you, do refer indeed to Christ." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 68)
150 AD Justin Martyr "But if you knew, Trypho," continued I, "who He is that is called at one time the Angel of great counsel, and a Man by Ezekiel, and like the Son of man by Daniel, and a Child by Isaiah, and Christ and God to be worshipped by David, and Christ and a Stone by many, and Wisdom by Solomon, and Joseph and Judah and a Star by Moses, and the East by Zechariah, and the Suffering One and Jacob and Israel by Isaiah again, and a Rod, and Flower, and Corner Stone, and Son of God, you would not have blasphemed Him who has now come, and been born, and suffered, and ascended to heaven; who shall also come again, and then your twelve tribes shall mourn. For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God. For Moses says somewhere in Exodus the following: `The Lord spake to Moses, and said to him, I am the Lord, and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, being their God; and my name I revealed not to them, and I established my covenant with them.’ And thus again he says, `A man wrestled with Jacob,’ and asserts it was God; narrating that Jacob said, `I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.’" (Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. CXXVI [See also The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XIII; XXII; LXIII; Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XXXVI; XLVIII; LVI; LIX; LXI; C; CV; CXXV; CXXVIII)
150 AD Justin Martyr "But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the onlybegotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the onlybegotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh." Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts. (long versionThe Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chap. VII. See also Chap. XV; XVIII; XIX; The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chap.VI; The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians, Chap. X; The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans (Introduction); The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians, Chap. IV; VI; The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chap. I; III; V)
[Trypho to Justin] "…you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, and that He submitted to be born and become man" – Dialogue with Trypho, ch.48.
150 AD Justin Martyr "We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5-6).
150 AD Justin Martyr "Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to His will, He taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race" (First Apology 23).
150 AD Justin Martyr "But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 6) Notice what else Justin say: "Worship God alone." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 16) "Whence to God alone we render worship." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 17)
150 AD Justin Martyr "God begot before all creatures a Beginning, who was a certain rational power from himself and whom the Holy Spirit calls . . . sometimes the Son, . . . sometimes Lord and Word … We see things happen similarly among ourselves, for whenever we utter some word, we beget a word, yet not by any cutting off, which would diminish the word in us when we utter it. We see a similar occurrence when one fire enkindles another. It is not diminished through the enkindling of the other, but remains as it was" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 61).
150 AD Justin Martyr "God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).
150 AD Justin Martyr [Note: Justin never says Jesus is a created angel. Justin never refers to Jesus as an angel before creation, although JW’s will falsely affirm such from the text below. Justin, however, does refer to Jesus as the "angel of the Lord" after creation in various appearances to man. Many but not all Trinitarians would have no problem affirming, along side of Justin, that Jesus as uncreated God, was referred to as the Angel of Jehovah.] "HOW GOD APPEARED TO MOSES. And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib; but Israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand." And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him." Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, "He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me." From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, "And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people." And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham,
and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, "Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me." And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him." The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63)
150 AD Justin Martyr "It is not on this ground solely," I said, "that it must be admitted absolutely that some other one is called Lord by the Holy Spirit besides Him who is considered Maker of all things; not solely [for what is said] by Moses, but also [for what is said] by David. For there is written by him: ‘The Lord says to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool,’ as I have already quoted. And again, in other words: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 56)
150 AD Justin Martyr "Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavor to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things, — numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world — above whom there is no other God — has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 56)
150 AD Justin Martyr "… even so here, the Scripture, in announcing that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and in afterwards declaring him to be Lord and God, speaks of the same One, whom it declares by the many testimonies already quoted to be minister to God, who is above the world, above whom there is no other [God]." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60)
150 AD Justin Martyr "I shall give you another testimony, my friends," said I, "from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, …" (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60)
150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna

150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna "I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14).
160 AD Mathetes

160 AD Mathetes "[The Father] sent the Word that he might be manifested to the world . . . This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old . . . This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son" (Letter to Diognetus 11).
170 AD Tatian the Syrian

170 AD Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).
177 AD Athenagoras

177 AD Athenagoras "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by `the Son,’ I will tell you briefly: He is the first- begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things" (Plea for the Christians 10:2-4).
177 AD Melito of Sardis

177 AD Melito of Sardis "It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13).
180 AD Theophilus of Antioch

180 AD Theophilus of Antioch Chapter XV. – Of the Fourth Day. "On the fourth day the luminaries were made; because God, who possesses foreknowledge, knew the follies of the vain philosophers, that they were going to say, that the things which grow on the earth are produced from the heavenly bodies, so as to exclude God. In order, therefore, that the truth might be obvious, the plants and seeds were produced prior to the heavenly bodies, for what is posterior cannot produce that which is prior. And these contain the pattern and type of a great mystery. For the sun is a type of God, and the moon of man. And as the sun far surpasses the moon in power and glory, so far does God surpass man. And as the sun remains ever full, never becoming less, so does God always abide perfect, being full of all power, and understanding, and wisdom, and immortality, and all good. But the moon wanes monthly, and in a manner dies, being a type of man; then it is born again, and is crescent, for a pattern of the future resurrection. In like manner also the three
days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity,. of God, and His Word, and His wisdom." [Triavdo" The earliest use of this word "Trinity." It seems to have been used by this writer in his lost works, also; and, as a learned friends suggests, the use he makes of it is familiar. He does not lug it in as something novel: "types of the Trinity," he says, illustrating an accepted word, not introducing a new one.] "And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man. Wherefore also on the fourth day the lights were made. The disposition of the stars, too, contains a type of the arrangement and order of the righteous and pious, and of those who keep the law and commandments of God. For the brilliant and bright stars are an imitation of the prophets, and therefore they remain fixed, not declining, nor passing from place to place. And those which hold the second place in brightness, are types of the people of the righteous. And those, again, which change their position, and flee from place to place, which also are cared planets, they too are a type of the men who have wandered from God, abandoning His law and commandments." (180 AD, Theophilus of Antioch Chapter XV. – Of the Fourth Day, To Autolycus 2:15)
180 AD Irenaeus

180 AD Irenaeus "…so that He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator." – Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 8, section 3.
180 AD Irenaeus "But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues…" (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9)
180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1)
180 AD Irenaeus "For I have shown from the scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, chapter xix.2)
180 AD Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the Earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the Resurrection from the dead, and the bodily Ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to re-establish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1).
180 AD Irenaeus "[The Gnostics] transfer the generation of the uttered word of men to the eternal Word of God, attributing to him a beginning of utterance and a coming into being . . . In what manner, then, would the word of God–indeed, the great God himself, since he is the Word–differ from the word of men?" (Against Heresies 2:13:8).
180 AD Irenaeus "Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (Against Heresies, 3:19:1).
180 AD Irenaeus "It was not angels, therefore, who made us nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor anyone else . . . For God did not stand in need of these in order to the accomplishing of what he had himself determined with himself beforehand should be done, as if he did not possess his own hands. For with him [the Father] were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, he made all things, to whom also he speaks, saying, ‘Let us make man in our image and likeness’ [Gen. 1:26" (Against Heresies 4:20:1).
180 AD Irenaeus [Quoting John 1:1] "’…and the Word was God,’ of course, for that which is begotten of God is God." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 8, section 5)
180 AD Irenaeus "And again when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, ‘I am come down to deliver this people,’ (Exodus 3:8 – the burning bush). For it is He who descended and ascended for the salvation of men." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 6, section 2)
180 AD Irenaeus "Proofs From The Apostolic Writings, That Jesus Christ Was One And The Same, The Only Begotten Son Of God, Perfect God And Perfect Man." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 16, Chapter Title)
180 AD Irenaeus [in reference to Jesus] "For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself,…Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 19, section 2)
180 AD Irenaeus "God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 21, section 1)
180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 5, section 2)
180 AD Irenaeus "And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch.6, section 6)
180 AD Irenaeus "God formed man…it was not angels, therefore, who made us…neither had angels power to make an image of God." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 1)
180 AD Irenaeus "Wherefore the prophets, receiving the prophetic gift from the same Word, announced His advent according to the flesh, by which the blending and communion of God and man took place according to the good pleasure of the Father, the Word of God foretelling from the beginning that God should be seen by men, and hold converse with them upon earth." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 4)
180 AD Irenaeus "The Word, that is, the Son, was always with the Father." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 3)
180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus, the Son of God, because of His surpassing love for His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 4, section 2)
180 AD Irenaeus "Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance o
f the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord. And again, referring to the destruction of the Sodomites, the Scripture says, "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the LORD out of heaven." For it here points out that the Son, who had also been talking with Abraham, had received power to judge the Sodomites for their wickedness. And this [text following] does declare the same truth: "Thy throne, O God; is for ever and ever; the scepter of Thy kingdom is a right scepter. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee." For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God — both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father." (Book 3, ch 6)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria

190 AD Clement Of Alexandria [note: Clement NEVER calls Jesus a creature.] "There was then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated." (Fragments, Part I, section III)
"that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Saviour, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God, not disbelieved in by all when He was first preached, nor altogether unknown when, assuming the character of man, and fashioning Himself in flesh, He enacted the drama of human salvation: for He was a true champion and a fellow-champion with [ie. God among creatures, not that Jesus is classed as a creature] the creature." (Exhortations, Chap 10)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "When [John] says: ‘What was from the beginning [1 John 1:1],’ he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-equal with the Father. ‘Was,’ therefore, is indicative of an eternity without a beginning, just as the Word Himself, that is the Son, being one with the Father in regard to equality of substance, is eternal and uncreated. That the word always existed is signified by the saying: ‘In the beginning was the Word’ [John 1:1]." (fragment in Eusebius History, Bk 6 Ch 14; Jurgens, p. 188)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria ‘For both are one — that is, God. For He has said, "In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God." (The Instructor, Book 1, ch 8)
190 AD Clement of Alexandria "Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the Expiator, the Savior, the Soother, the Divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son." (Exhortation to the Greeks, 10:110:1).
190 AD Clement of Alexandria "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for lie was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1).
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God." (Instructor, Book I, ch. 2)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "His Son Jesus, the Word of God, is our Instructor…. He is God and Creator." (Instructor, Book I, ch. 11)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "This is the New Song, the manifestation of the Word that was in the beginning, and before the beginning. The Savior, who existed before, has in recent days appeared. He, who is in Him that truly is, has appeared; for the Word, who "was with God," and by whom all things were created, has appeared as our Teacher. The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends." (Exhortation To The Heathen, ch 2)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man" (Exhortation To The Heathen, ch 2)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made [made = appointed not created, ie. made king after resurrection.] equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God, not disbelieved in by all when He was first preached, nor altogether unknown when, assuming the character of man, and fashioning Himself in flesh" (Exhortation To The Heathen, ch 10)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God." (The Instructor, Book 1, ch 2)
200 AD Tertullian

200 AD Tertullian "Never did any angel descend for the purpose of being crucified, of tasting death, and of rising again from the dead." (The Flesh of Christ, ch 6)
200 AD Tertullian "All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced…the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed." (Against Praxeas, ch 11)
200 AD Tertullian "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ, 5:6-7).
200 AD Tertullian "[God speaks in the plural ‘Let us make man in our image’] because already there was attached to Him his Son, a second person, his own Word, and a third, the Spirit in the Word….one substance in three coherent persons. He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit." (Against Praxeas, ch 12)
200 AD Tertullian "Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are One’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of Being not singularity of number" (Against Praxeas, 25)
200 AD Tertullian "As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian)
200 AD Tertullian "So too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God; and the two are
one…. In his birth he is God and man united." (Apology, ch 21)
200 AD Tertullian "There is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her — being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics." (Against Praxeas, ch 2)
200 AD Tertullian "That there are two Gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as Gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6)
200 AD Tertullian "The Spirit is God, and the Word is God, because proceeding from God, but yet is not actually the very same as He from whom He proceeds.." (Against Praxeas, ch 26)
200 AD Tertullian "For He could not have been the Father previous to the Son, nor a judge previous to sin" (Against Hermogones, Ch 3)
200 AD Tertullian "He will be God, and the Word – the Son of God. We see plainly the twofold state, which is not confounded, but conjoined in One Person – Jesus, God and Man.." (Against Praxeas, ch 27)
200 AD Tertullian "God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God" (The Soul 41:3)
200 AD Tertullian "We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the Sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . this rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the Gospel, before even the earlier heretics" … "And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the Three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in Being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one Being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Against Praxeas 2).
200 AD Tertullian "While keeping to this demurrer always, there must, nevertheless, be place for reviewing for the sake of the instruction and protection of various persons. Otherwise it might seem that each perverse opinion is not examined but simply prejudged and condemned. This is especially so in the case of the present heresy [Sabellianism], which considers itself to have the pure truth when it supposes that one cannot believe in the one only God in any way other than by saying that Father, Son, and Spirit are the selfsame person. As if one were not all . . . through the unity of substance" (Against Praxeas 2:3-4)
200 AD Tertullian "Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (Against Praxeas, 9)
200 AD Tertullian "[W]hen God says, ‘Let there be light’ [Gen. 1:3], this is the perfect nativity of the Word, while he is proceeding from God. . . . Thus, the Father makes him equal to himself, and the Son, by proceeding from him, was made the first-begotten, since he was begotten before all things, and the only-begotten, because he alone was begotten of God, in a manner peculiar to himself, from the womb of his own heart, to which even the Father himself gives witness: ‘My heart has poured forth my finest Word’ [Ps. 45:1Against Praxeas 7:1).
200 AD Tertullian "… it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: "My Father is greater than I." In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being "a little lower than the angels." Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another" (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian)
200 AD Tertullian [Just as JW’s attribute words to Tertullian that he never said. We draw your attention to the fact that the quoted words (from "Should you believe in the trinity", Watchtower booklet), "There was a time when the Son was not" are not Tertullian’s, but those of Bishop Kaye in his appendix section on Tertullian. (Bishop Kaye, Account of the Writings of Tertullian, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 3, p 1181). Kaye, Tertullian, some Trinitarians and all Modalists teach that Jesus was eternally pre-existent as God, and that the title of "Son" was first applied to Jesus after his incarnation. Just as a man cannot be called a father, until after he has a son, so too Jesus cannot be called a Son until after he was physically born via incarnation. This is the gist of what Kaye is saying Tertullian taught. To support this, notice this comment by Tertullian,] "For He could not have been the Father previous to the Son, nor a judge previous to sin" (Against Hermogones, Ch 3) see next quote:
200 AD Tertullian [Interesting that Tertullian being a modalist, not only says there was a time before the Son became the Son, so too a time before God was the Father] Because God is in like manner a Father, and He is also a Judge; but He has not always been Father and Judge, merely on the ground of His having always been God. For He could not have been the Father previous to the Son, nor a Judge previous to sin. There was, however, a time when neither sin existed with Him, nor the Son; the former of which was to constitute the Lord a Judge, and the latter a Father. In this way He was not Lord previous to those things of which He was to be the Lord. But He was only to become Lord at some future time: just as He became the Father by the Son, and a Judge by sin, so also did He become Lord by means of those things which He had made, in order that they might serve Him. (Tertullian, Against Hermogenes, chapter 3)
200 AD Tertullian "For before all things God was alone — being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He alone; for He had with Him that which He possessed i
n Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call , by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God;" (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian)
200 AD Hippolytus

200 AD Hippolytus "For who will not say that there is one God? Yet he will not on that account deny the economy (i.e., the number and disposition of persons in the Trinity)." (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus)
200 AD Hippolytus "As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine" (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus)
200 AD Hippolytus "Let us look next at the apostle’s word: "Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever."(13) This word declares the mystery of the truth rightly and clearly. He who is over all is God; for thus He speaks boldly, "All things are delivered unto me of my Father."(14) He who is over all, God blessed, has been born; and having been made man, He is (yet) God for ever. For to this effect John also has said, "Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."(15) And well has he [John] named Christ the Almighty. For in this he has said only what Christ testifies of Himself. For Christ gave this testimony, and said, "All things are delivered unto me of my Father;"(16) and Christ rules all things, and has been appointed" (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus 6)
200 AD Hippolytus "For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings,(7) rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards thee. And provided thou obeyest His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, thou shall resemble Him, inasmuch as thou shall have honour conferred upon thee by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish ought of the divinity of His divine(8) perfection; having made thee even God unto His glory" (Elucidations, Ch. 30, Author’s Concluding Address)
200 AD Hippolytus "She hath mingled her wine" in the bowl, by which is meant, that the Saviour, uniting his Godhead, like pure wine, with the flesh in the Virgin, was born of her at once God and man without confusion of the one in the other. "And she hath furnished her table:" that denotes the promised knowledge of the Holy Trinity." (Hippolytus on Prov 9:1, fragment, "Wisdom hath builded her house.")
200 AD Hippolytus "But there is also that which is more honourable than all–the fact that Christ, the Maker of all, came down as the rain, and was known as a spring, and diffused Himself as a river, and was baptized in the Jordan." (Discourse On The Holy Theophany)
200 AD Hippolytus [Applying Rev 1:8 to Christ] "He who is over all, God blessed, has been born, and having been made man. He is God forever. For to this effect John also has said, ‘Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.’ And well has he named Christ the Almighty." (Against Noetus, Part 6)
200 AD Hippolytus "Beside Him there was nothing; but He [God], while existing alone, yet existed in plurality." (Against Noetus, Part 10)
200 AD Hippolytus "Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven,… He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man.." (Against Noetus, Part 17)
200 AD Hippolytus "The Logos is God, being the substance of God." (Refutation of all Heresies, Book X, ch 29)
200 AD Hippolytus "For Christ is the God above all…" (Refutation of all Heresies, Book X, ch 30)
200 AD Hippolytus "The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the Being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29).
200 AD Hippolytus "Therefore, this sole and universal God, by reflecting, first brought forth the Word–not a word as in speech, but as a mental word, the reason for everything. . . . The Word was the cause of those things which came into existence, carrying out in himself the will of him by whom he was begotten. . . . Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" … "For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33,34).
200 AD Hippolytus "Thus, after the death of Zephyrinus, supposing that he had obtained (the position) after which he so eagerly pursued, he [Callistus] excommunicated Sabellius, as not entertaining orthodox opinions" (Refutation of All Heresies 9:7).
200 AD Hippolytus "Against The Heresy Of One Noetus: 1. Some others are secretly introducing another doctrine, who have become disciples of one Noetus, who was a native of Smyrna, (and) lived not very long ago. This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died. Ye see what pride of heart and what a strange inflated spirit had insinuated themselves into him. Froth his other actions, then, the proof is already given us that he spoke not with a pure spirit; for he who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost is cast out from the holy inheritance. He alleged that he was himself Moses, and that Aaron was his brother. When the blessed presbyters heard this, they summoned him before the Church, and examined him. But he denied at first that he held such opinions. Afterwards, however, taking shelter among some, and having gathered round him some others who had embraced the same error, he wished thereafter to uphold his dogma openly as correct. And the blessed presbyters called him again before them, and examined him. But he stood out against them, saying, "What evil, then, am I doing in glorifying Christ?" And the presbyters replied to him, "We too know in truth one God; we know Christ; we know that the Son suffered even as He suffered, and died even as He died, and rose again on the third day, and is at the right hand of the Father, and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And these things which we have learned we allege." Then, after examining him, they expelled him from the Church. And he was carried to such a pitch of pride, that he established a school. 2. Now they [Noetus] seek to exhibit the foundation for their dogma by citing the word in the law, "I am the God of your fathers: ye shall have no other gods beside me;" and again in another passage, "I am the first," He saith, "and the last; and beside me there is none other." Thus they say they prove that God is one. And then they answer in this manner: "If therefore I acknowledge Christ to be God, He is the Father Himself, if He is indeed God; and Christ suffered, being Himself God; and consequently the Father suffered, for He was the Father Himself." But the case stands not thus; for the Scriptures do not set forth the matter in this manner. But they make use also of other testimonies, and say, Thus it is written: "This is our God, and there shall none other be accounted of in comparison of Him. He hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant (son), and to Israel His beloved. Afterward did He show Himself upon earth, and conversed with men." You see, then, he says, that this is God, who is the
only One, and who afterwards did show Himself, and con-versed with men." And in another place he says, "Egypt hath laboured; and the merchandise of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, (and they shall be slaves to thee); and they shall come after thee bound with manacles, and they shall fall down unto thee, because God is in thee; and they shall make supplication unto thee: and there is no God beside thee. For Thou art God, and we knew not; God of Israel, the Saviour." Do you see, he says, how the Scriptures proclaim one God? And as this is clearly exhibited, and these passages are testimonies to it, I am under necessity, he says, since one is acknowledged, to make this One the subject of suffering. For Christ was God, and suffered on account of us, being Himself the Father, that He might be able also to save us. And we cannot express ourselves otherwise, he says; for the apostle also acknowledges one God, when he says, "Whose are the fathers, (and) of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." … "8. In this way, then, they choose to set forth these things, and they make use only of one class of passages; just in the same one-sided manner that Theodotus employed when he sought to prove that Christ was a mere man. But neither has the one party nor the other understood the matter rightly, as the Scriptures themselves confute their senselessness, and attest the truth. See, brethren, what a rash and audacious dogma they have introduced, when they say without shame, the Father is Himself Christ, Himself the Son, Himself was born, Himself suffered, Himself raised Himself. But it is not so. The Scriptures speak what is right; but Noetus is of a different mind from them. Yet, though Noetus does not understand the truth, the Scriptures are not at once to be repudiated. For who will not say that there is one God? Yet he will not on that account deny the economy (i.e., the number and disposition of persons in the Trinity). The proper way, therefore, to deal with the question is first of all to refute the interpretation put upon these passages by these men, and then to explain their real meaning. For it is right, in the first place, to expound the truth that the Father is one God, "of whom is every family," "by whom are all things, of whom are all things, and we in Him." (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus)
200 AD Hippolytus "Against The Heresy Of One Noetus: Many other passages, or rather all of them, attest the truth. A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine. In these things, however, which are thus set forth by us, we are at one. For there is one God in whom we must believe, but unoriginated, impassible, immortal, doing all things as He wills, in the way He wills, and when He wills. What, then, will this Noetus, who knows nothing of the truth, dare to say to these things? And now, as Noetus has been confuted, let us turn to the exhibition of the truth itself, that we may establish the truth, against which all these mighty heresies have arisen without being able to state anything to the purpose. (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus)
200 AD Hippolytus "A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine. In these things, however, which are thus set forth by us, we are at one. For there is one God in whom we must believe, but unoriginated, impassible, immortal, doing all things as He wills, in the way He wills, and when He wills." (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus)
200 AD Hippolytus "As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine" (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus)
225 AD Origen

225 AD Origen "And that you may understand that the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same, as God and the Lord are one and the same with the Father, listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: "Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."(3) For who else was "He which is to come" than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Saviour is also God; so also, since the Father is called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also cared omnipotent." (De Principis, On Christ, Book 1, Ch 2)
225 AD Origen "Nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification." (De Principis, Book I, ch. 3, section 7)
225 AD Origen "Saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." (De Principis, Book I, ch. 3, section 2)
225 AD Origen "The holy Apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, treated with the utmost clarity of certain matters which they believed to be of absolute necessity to all believers…The specific points which are clearly handed down through the Apostolic preaching [are] these: First, that there is one God who created and arranged all things…Secondly, that Jesus Christ himself was born of the Father before all creatures…Although He was God, He took flesh, and having been made man, He remained what He was, God" (De Principis, Preface, sections 3 – 4)
225 AD Origen "For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a substance outside Himself, so that there was a time when He did not exist." (De Principis, Book V, Summary, section 28)
225 AD Origen "We worship one God, the Father and the Son." (Against Celsus, Book VIII, section 12)
225 AD Origen "The specific points which are clearly handed down through the apostolic preaching are these: First, that there is one God who created and arranged all things, and who, when nothing existed, called all things into existence, and that in the final period this God, just as he had promised beforehand through the prophets, sent the Lord Jesus Christ. Secondly, that Jesus Christ himself, who came, was born of the father before all creatures; and after he had ministered to the father in the creation of all things, for through him all things were made" … "Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was. God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4).
225 AD Origen "For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the Being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a Being outside himself, so that there were a time when he [the Son] did not exist" … "No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that
the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything

[Larry Gibbons]

To T8 and GJG:

First, T8, I can only find record of one birth of Jesus in all of scripture. If he pre-existed it’s fair to ask how. If he was the Word, what was he? Perhaps you have some insight I have missed.

Regarding what I understand to be true, I am copying an exerpt from an article on my web page for you to examine:

In Ephesians 1:11, we see that God “works all things according to the counsel of His will.” Here and in other scriptures, it becomes apparent that God had a plan and a purpose for His creation by which He would show forth His glory. I believe that in eternity past, before creation, God determined exactly how He would express Himself by condescending to our level so that we might be able to know and enjoy Him. The invisible, unchanging God would reveal Himself through a visible man. Standing outside of time, God pointed to this man throughout the Old Testament by means of many instances, types, prophecies, and even narratives between Himself and the man. God not only wrote the script; he played the parts and spoke the lines. From the time Christ was born at Bethlehem, all these prophetic scriptures would bear witness that Jesus was THE man. A close reading of the gospel of John will bear out this relationship of Christ to God His Father. Because His will was to do that of His Father, he is the perfect image of God. He, as the second Adam, is also the perfect example of man, what God intends for us to be. Here is what we choose to call the Dual Nature of Christ— the nature of God and the nature of man, each retaining its own opposite attributes, existing in one person, in a union of perfect harmony. First touched upon in 451 A.D. at the Council of Chalcedon, this truth that was termed the “hypostatic union,” even then it was not fully appreciated and remains so yet today. In essence it declared:

“In the person of Christ there are two natures (deity and humanity) united in such a way as to be without mixture, confusion, separation, each nature retaining its own absolutes.”

Though such a statement was a great milestone in the Church’s quest to understand Christ as both man and God, its full significance was missed because of the presumption that both natures belonged to Christ. No, the two natures were not united in terms of a common “substance” (as regarded in that day) but by a common will and purpose.

Consider what has been said, that the Father took up residence in the physical body of Jesus. Are not the two natures evident? One is God and the other is Christ. One is the Father and the other is the Son. Two natures, each with attributes completely opposite to the other. There it is, the Dual Nature. Chalcedon had the right formula, though it reached the wrong conclusion. Influenced by the Creeds that credited Christ with both deity and humanity, the two natures were thought to be exclusively those of Christ. The Deity nature was assumed to be that of Christ–wrong! No, in Christ the Deity nature dwelled in him who was fully man—right! Scripture is always right. How wise of God that He should speak to us in terms we can all understand. Just as we all have a natural father, so as many as choose to believe have a spiritual Father. Yes, we are children born of God! Never are we said to be children of Christ; he is our big brother, we his brethren. No need to be a great theologian to understand that.

T8, I hope the above is helpful in explaining where I stand.

GJG, regarding your post of my post to T8 that you posted with the remark, "I agree with all that," with exactly what part do you agree? Your other post seems to disagree, at least in part. Let me address your remarks about Jesus being "more than a mere mortal babe."

I certainly agree. Apart from the first Adam, he was the only man ever born without a sin nature. But though he was fathered by God’s spirit, he was nevertheless born fully human. Like everyone of us, he required the care and nurture of his parents. He had to grow up like the rest of us, to learn how to crawl, to walk, to talk, etc. As Luke 2:52 says, "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man." Perhaps Mary didn’t share Gabriel’s message to her with him; admittedly that is speculation, but she would not have needed to have understood the message fully to have shared it. God surely had to have given her some insight in view of her words recorded about Jesus’ first miracle at Cana. We do know for sure that Jesus acquired great insight about scripture, I think in much the same way as we born again believers who are hungry to know God feast upon His words and come into understanding by His spirit in us.

I think the scriptures you quoted are in accord with this and are given to show that he was really special yet representative of how God enables us to gradually grow in both physical stature and in spiritual wisdom.

I think we are basically in agreement. Surely the spirit of God was with Jesus from his birth. If we differ it may be in how we view the concept of the "dual nature" of Christ. Words can often get us in trouble (for instance, you question whether Deity should be referred to as a person, and I think possible phrases like "dual nature" may sometimes do more to hinder than to help. That being so, let me give you my understanding from the Gospel accounts. I think there is a marked difference in Jesus’ life before and after his baptism by John. It is after his baptism that his ministry begins and people marveled at his words and miracles. Prior to that time, he was undoubtedly regarded as a good man, but his friends were ready to throw him over a cliff when he identified himself as the Messiah at Nazareth.

You say, "Just like the man Jesus, he affected others around him." Who are you referring to? I don’t understand. You say that through puberty, no ordinary young man would be able to remain totally sinless. I disagree. I think the lifestyle of many young people today is to refrain from fornication. True, we are all tempted, and surely Jesus was, yet without sin, desiring to please God rather than his own passions.

How do we a born again believers walk with God? Is it not in the same way the Jesus did, as least so far as when we focus on his love for us and life in us? Whether we fall short in mind or deed, agreement with God brings instant forgiveness and cleansing according to I John I:9. We are not saved by keeping all the fine points of the law, but by faith in Christ. My own personal view is that his life was characterized in the same manner, even if to a greater degree. I see no halo around Jesus’ head but instead a real flesh and blood man with a heart for God, where his actions were governed by love for God and man.

I hope I haven’t misinterpreted what you state and that my response is helpful.

[Proclaimer]

Thanks Larry. I will reply to both you an GJG soon.

[Proclaimer]

To global ,

My first response to Part I on page 20
Your quotes are in gray.
Also, I am not sure how you want to structure this, but if you reply to this Post with a rebuttal, then perhaps we should work on that, until I move to the next part. Otherwise I can reply to each of your points and you can take notes as I post, then you could post it all in one go. I leave it up to you, but either structure is fine by me. I am also open to suggestions from you with regards to structure.

I don’t find these scriptures confusing, no-one has seen God in all his splendour as he truly is in Heaven, but does this mean that God cannot appear as a human (or even as several humans) and we see him in that form?

Lets look at  Genesis 18:1-2

Yahweh appeared to him, He looked up, and there he saw three men.

Abraham addresses the 3 men as Yahweh, and they are described interchangeably as they replied or Yahweh replied.

When two of the men depart to visit Lot in Sodom, Abraham continues to address the remaining man as Yahweh, but Lot addresses the other two as Yahweh as well (Gen 19:18).

The word 'LORD' the one who appeared to Abraham in these verses is the Hebrew word 'Yahweh'. In Gen 19:18 the word is 'adown' which means lord, Lord (note: not Yahweh), master, owner, sir. The word is used in the following contexts:

reference to men

• proprietor of hill of Samaria
• master
• husband
• prophet
• governor
• prince
• king

reference to God

• Lord of lords
• the Lord God
• Lord of the whole earth

So when this word is used to describe God, it is accompanied with a description as to what kind of lord/master we are talking about.
e.g Lord of the whole earth means = Master of the whole earth etc. The word lord on it's own can denote any kind of authority. So we can address Yahweh as master, but it appears that when this word is used to talk about God, it is accompanied with other words in order to describe that God is being referred to.

Moving on, we see in chapter 19:1-2 the following:
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

So we can see that they were angels and we can also see that they were referred to as lords. Although the hebrew word for lord and lords is actually the same word in the Masoretic text. I am not sure if this is because Hebrew doesn't have a plural version like English or whether the translators used lord in plural to make it sound sensible to them.

Also we see in chapter 19:13
For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

So here we can see the following:

• these 2 persons are Angels
• they speak on their own accord
• they are referring to the LORD as another person.

So we end up with the word 'Yahweh' being used only when the other visitor is present.

So why are three angels/men referred to as LORD in chapter 18 and in chapter 19 two angels are referred to as lords or angels only?

As far as Abraham addressing all 3 men and them replying, I would like to first point out that it would be hard to believe that all 3 spoke at the same time and I would also like to point out  something that was shown to me about 10 days ago by a member of this Forum:

It is entirely possible that Abraham was addressing one of the three as he could have appeared as a being of higher rank. A Lord and his servants. The one in charge accepted the invitation and the other two would naturally agree because he was in charge. But did all 3 men really answer. Well we are given that impression because the word THEY is used.

Now this person pointed out to me that the word THEY doesn't have a number beside it in the Strongs. So this word must have been added in order to make gramatical sense in English. So the word THEY could possibly be an error. Anyway I checked it out first in the Strongs and yes it is true that there is no word number for THEY. I then checked it out in the Masoretic Text and again a Hebrew word for the English word THEY is not in the text. English translators have added in that word to obviously make the verse readable, but in doing so they just assumed that all 3 answered, when there is nothing in this verse in the Hebrew to say that all 3 answered Abraham.

The 3 words AND THEY SAID is the translation of the Hebrew word 'dabar'. This word has the following meanings:

• speak
• say
• talk
• promise
• tell
• commune
• pronounce
• utter
• command

So there doesn't appear to be anything in the text to say that all 3 men answered.

Anyway, let's imagine that all 3 did answer Abraham, which is still possible.  We could assume that they answered at different times and this surely doesn't rule out that the first visitor was of higher rank and that Abraham was addressing the first visitor.

Now even if Abraham was addressing all three as Yahweh and all 3 answered, then does that actually prove that Abraham was referring to all of them as Yahweh, it is also possible that Abraham was addressing Yahweh as the invisible eternal Spirit that was in these beings.

Whatever way we look at these verses, we do need to read them in the light of other scripture and other encounters of men seeing God show us that the Angel of the Lord was present. So it is very possible that the first visitor is the Angel of the Lord.

Anyway, I think that it is safe to say that God did not appear as 3 men, rather he appeared in 3 men/angels. He was not actually those men/angels he was in them, (same as a human who has the Spirit of God dwelling in them) and as we see in chapter 19, 2 of these men/angels were able to talk and do other things that people can do and then refer to the LORD as another person.

Now if we look at Moses's encounter when he saw God, we know that the Angel of the Lord appeared to him. But if that detail were not recorded, then I am sure that many would use this occurance to prove that a person can see the invisible God. But would that make it correct? No it wouldn't. Omission of detail doesn't some how change the meaning and this is why I think we need to read scripture in the light of scripture.

We can learn in at least 3 ways from scripture. By teaching and doctrine, events and patterns. I look at these verses as events and also in light of the pattern of other occurances of men seeing God.

So my opinion is that the first visitor was the Angel of the Lord and the 2nd and 3rd visitors were Angels. Again I repeat that this is my opinion. I certainly do not think that God appeared as 3 Men, like he created 3 bodies for the occassion and indwelt and spoke through them at the same time. We never see this kind of thing in other scriptures.

[Proclaimer]

To global ,

My 2nd response to your Biblical Arguments Part I back on page 20
Your quotes are in gray.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
This scripture plainly points out that for us (believers) there is only one God the Father and Jesus is our only Lord.

So, the argument seems to be that there is only one God, the Father, therefore Jesus is not God.

But lets apply that logic to the whole verse, there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ  therefore God is not Lord.

This conclusion is absurd as we know that God is Lord, so the fallacy in this logic as applied to this verse is evident.

Ok let's apply your own logic to the following verse:

1 Corinthians 6
14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.

Your logic is the one that is absurd because if the Father is God and so is Jesus, then God also raised himself from the dead and if the Father is God and the Lord, then Jesus also raised his Father from the dead. So the fallacy in this logic as applied to this verse is evident.

Now let's look at your logic and it's conation to 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, the scripture in question. I believe that your logic completely renders what Paul was saying as invalid. If for example Paul is saying that there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ, and your interpretation is the correct one, then what was Paul actually talking about? Sounds to me that he was talking through a hole in his hat or to put it another way, he is rambling. Why say that there is only one God, the Father if he didn't mean it, or if it is not true? Also why would Paul mention God and Lord as different? (There are many gods and many lords). You seem to interchange them whenever you feel like it, or to fit your belief.

Now if you think about it, 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 would have been the perfect place for Paul to teach the trinity. He was defining what we should believe and it is the closest thing to a creed that I have seen in scripture. Except that todays creeds are completely contradictory.

As a Trinity believer, surely you would have to ask why Paul just didn't say that there is one God made up of 3 personalities, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, as you believe. If this were so, then we wouldn't even be debating this subject would we. But he didn't, he taught us a different structure to that of the Trinity doctrine. Simple and clear, even a child can understand Paul's teachings here.

Now to read 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 in the light of other scripture, I would like to quote the following:

Ephesians 4:3-6
3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called,
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

So these verses condemn your logic and conclusion in that it stresses 1 faith, not 2 faiths, 1 body, not 2 bodies of Christ, 1 God not 2 Gods and 1 Lord not 2 Lords. It also says that the Father is God and Jesus is Lord. Not the Father is Lord and Jesus is God.

Instead of trying to fit scripture into man-made creeds, why don't you just read the scriptures the way they are written and draw your conclusion from there? Even if it contradicts your current belief, just continue to learn. If you did this you would have the truth and it would all make perfect sense in time.

I personally believe that Paul would have rebuked you and warned the flock about your leaven, (had you lived in his day) because you are actually attacking what Paul is teaching here. Remember Paul warned us in Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that you are denying the only Lord God, by having other Lord God's and this verse does differentiate between the Lord Jesus and the only Lord God who we know is the Father.

God became a Father, when he begat a Son. It's so simple, yet men have to complicate the faith because of pride and in doing so, they are led away from this simple truth.

[global]

Hi T8, yes that’s fine, I’ll just post my answers to your replies as you post them.

I think I partly answered some of your points about the phrase Angel of the Lord in my post on page 21, but I’ll copy it again here so people don’t have to turn back –

There is no doubt that these passages talking about angels or the angel of the Lord are very difficult due to the lack of clarity in the original texts, which at times seem to use the terms Lord and angel of the Lord interchangeably, and also that some texts have the Lord and others the angel of the Lord.

For example in Exodus 13.21 it says the Lord went before the Israelites in a cloud, but in 14.19 it calls their guide the angel of God. However by ch. 33 when God is angry with them it seems clear that it was indeed God himself who accompanied them because he says he will not go with them anymore and offers an angel instead.

This situation is further confused by different texts. The Massoretic text aswell as the vulgate both clearly identify God as appearing to Moses in the bush while the Septuagint says it was the angel of the Lord. The Septuagint itself seems to be inconsistent on this point because in Judges 6 it renders the Hebrew “Lord” as “the angel of the Lord”, but in the story of the cloud in Exodus it makes no changes.

That the same person who speaks to Moses should be called both the Lord and the Angel of the Lord is very hard to understand. Many, e.g. Tertullian, have seen in it a prelude of the revelation of the Incarnation.

St Augustine in Sermo vii, de Scripturis, P. G. V held the same view, saying "he is called both the Lord and the angel of the Lord because he was Christ, indeed the prophet (Is., ix, 6, Septuagint Ver.) clearly styles Christ the ‘Angel of great Counsel."

Now, I said when I raised this point that I accept it doesn’t prove the Trinity, but only that God can appear in the form of a man.

Even if I accept your point that 2 of the men were not addressed as Yahweh, (and were therefore angels) this still leaves us with one man being addressed as Yahweh.

You say that you think the third man was an angel aswell, but I prefer to simply accept what the Bible says –

Genesis 18:1
Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre

Your version requires an interpretation, mine doesn’t.

Now all this was raised because the summary began by saying that no man has ever seen God.

I posted the above arguments to show that I believed that no man has seen God in all his heavenly glory, but this doesn’t mean that God cannot appear in the form of a man.

In fact we know that Moses did in fact see God, although only from behind,

Exodus 33:18
Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!"

Exodus 33:19
And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

Exodus 33:20
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Exodus 33:21
Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;

Exodus 33:22
and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.

Exodus 33:23
"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."

This seems to confirm my position that when other verses in the Bible say no one has seen God it just means in all his all heavenly glory.

Moses saw God, but not his whole glory. So God could appear as a man and it wouldn’t contradict the verses that say no man has seen God either.

Be Well.

[Sunshine]

To those saying the Jesus is not God:

Isaiah 44:6 and 45:5 and 45:6 and 45:11 on and on it says it, Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, I am the first, and the last, and beside me there is no God.
Revelation 22:16,13 "I, Jesus…I am the first and the last"
Then calls Him the Almighty Rev.4:8
How in John 1:1-4 could Jesus be "a god"? He Couldn’t. He is THE LORD. (Almighty)
Isaiah 12:12 I have made the earth and sreated man upon it I even my hands have stretched out the heavens…
Not just ‘through’ His word, but with His hands, therefore for Jesus not to be THE God, they would be both liars saying they ‘both’ created everything. I know my God is NOT a liar.
Isaiah 45:21 and also 43:11 I even I am the LORD, and beside me there is no savior. I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god AMONG you, therefore you are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. 2 Samuel 22:2 And he said, The LORD is my rock. And I can’t find it at this second, but it also says He’s the again ONLY Rock.
1 Corinthians 10:4 talking about with Moses: ‘and the Rock was the Christ.’
Duet. 32:20 The LORD: He is the rock…
Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he and there is no god with me.

Isaiah 46:5,9 To whom will you liken me, and make me equal,and compare me, that we may be like? Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none like else, I am God, and there is none like me.
Jesus is Him.

To those who say Jesus is NOT God, not to be rude, but read your bible because it clearly states that He is. Otherwise they are both liars! I can go on further, I don’t think I need to, because if you disagree with what I already wrote, your calling God a liar which would condemn your whole faith. It clearly sates that He is.

[Proclaimer]

To Sunshine,

You are parrotting of all the usual trinitarian stuff. We have debated these things before and the verses you quote are a mixture of scriptures that talk about the Father and his Son. If you took your own advice and read the bible, you would see that the word ' God' is always referring to the Father. Read following in Rev 1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

So who gave the Revelation to Jesus?

In Rev 22 the verse you quoted, you will find the following:

The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

So if Jesus is God, then who is the Lamb?

You then take some attributes that are given to Jesus from God and you make that your proof that he is God.  Now we know that Jesus is the Holy One of God right, and we who are called are also called to be holy ones. So your reasoning means that we are Christ. This is exactly what you are doing and again I would please ask you to take your own advice and read your bible or more of this discussion before posting something that proves nothing.

But more importantly, I would ask that you humble yourself to be teachable and open to what God may show you. If not, then there is no point for you to be here.

In light of your Post Sunshine, I can only hope that this Discussion doesn't end up in a thoughtless trintarian fest because if we get meaningless Posts that just rattle of the same old stuff with no indepth thought or study, it will only water down the discussion and turn into some kind of silly argument with no true substance or consideration.

At least Global (a trinitarian believer)  is challenging each scripture and providing some substance as to his point of view. This is what this discussion needs right now. Not a “five minute quote some scriptures and this proves it attitude”, and then go and watch TV or whatever.

[GJG]

To Sunshine,

The fact that Jesus is God is not as important as discovering ‘how’ He is God, and yet perfect man. Please read Larry Gibbons recent post on the ‘dual-nature’ of Jesus and see what you think.

If you read up  on the last few pages of this topic, I am sure you will find the information/views quite interesting.

If any of us here called God a liar, we would indeed be wasting our time by using scripture to discover deeper truths.

Appreciate your participation:)

(Edited by GJG at 8:31 pm on Aug. 10, 2003)

[Larry Gibbons]

Regarding the discussion involving the use of the name Lord, below is a segment of one article on my website that may help clear up things:

The significance of the name Lord God

Here is an overview of the two Hebrew phrases translated Lord God, as well as LORD when used alone. Each will be examined individually regarding their capitalization and distinctions in Hebrew.

Lord GOD
Adonai Jehovah
Both words emphasize the Deity of the Father
Used only of the Father

LORD God
Jehovah Elohim
Pointing to the union of the Father and Son
Used only of the Son

LORD
Jehovah
Refers to the Father exclusively
or to the Father in His Son
when the context of a passage denotes humanity

Different capitalization is used for the words Lord God in the Old Testament. In a King James or other literal version, it is always used although it’s missing in some modern translations. We are at a disadvantage by having to settle for an English translation since our language sometimes fails to capture distinctions in words. Us dummies have to depend on Strong’s or Thayer’s for definitions if we’re trying to fine-tune God’s word.

Have you ever asked just why the difference in capitalization is used? You might ask what’s the big deal, anyway? We admit it may seem like a little thing. But ask yourself, were the scriptures given by the inspiration of God? If they are accurate to the last jot and tittle, then this capitalization must be there for a reason. To understand that is to gain a new appreciation for scripture’s accuracy.

To begin with, in our English versions the word “GOD,” when all letters are capitalized, has been translated from the Hebrew word Jehovah. The same is true for the word “LORD” when all letters are capitalized; it, too, is from the Hebrew Jehovah. Both are the names of God (Jehovah). It may seem to be a out of order and senseless, but not so. Just mark it now in your mind that when either GOD or LORD is in all capitals, the words mean the same thing, Jehovah. It‘s somewhat like a brand name that identifies Himself as Deity, avoiding any confusion or mixup (Remember, both words god and lord many times do not refer to God. This knowledge alone can clear up all kinds of questions related to the doctrine of the Trinity and supposed deity of Christ. These names identify God and the role He plays in the redemption of man.

THE HEBREW WORDS FOR THE NAME OF GOD THE FATHER:

“Lord GOD” identifies the Father as Jehovah, the Supreme One, the one from whom all things emanate. The Father’s name Lord GOD, pointing to His Deity, is to be distinguished from the name LORD God that refers to Christ. As explained above, the Hebrew word Jehovah is common to both in the capitalized words GOD and LORD. God, acknowledging His Son of humanity, shares His name with His Son to indicate the union between them. Certainly this is indicative of His dual nature. Further, the coupling of the name for Christ not only confirms the union but conveys both Deity (Jehovah) and humanity (Elohim) in His person. (Remember, the word elohim is used not only in reference to God but to mankind, angels, etc.).

To identify God the Father, a coupling of two different Hebrew words is translated in English “Lord GOD.” In Hebrew it is Adonai (Lord) Jehovah (GOD). Every time you see the coupling of these names, it is always the Father. It is also a double emphasis of His deity. Two is the number of witness, and it speaks of God’s Deity that He has repeatedly emphasized in the Old Testament and stated so succinctly in Isaiah 43:10, 11, “I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

Problems arise in translation because two Hebrew words, Adonai and Adon, both translate as Lord in English. The Hebrew word Adonai is used exclusively of the Father. This cannot be over emphasized. “Adonai” is used only of God, and never of man, and contrary to Trinitarian dogma, it is never used of Christ. At times the word “Lord” (Adonai) will be found by itself and purposely so. It unmistakably identifies God the Father. The other Hebrew word Adon is never used of the Father. It is used of men, angels, and of the Lord Jesus Christ. The difficulty of discerning the difference in English is apparent. At the risk of being repetitive, looking at them separately may help show the distinction between them.

Adonai (The Father): This word translated Lord belongs exclusively to the Father. It is used only of God. Never of man or the Lord Jesus Christ. Repeat “Never of man.” You may be sure it is speaking of God the Father.

Adon (The Son): This word Lord, used of the Son, unlike Adonai, is not exclusive. It is found 305 times in the KJV. It is used 268 times of men, 9 times of angels, and 28 times of the Lord Jesus. The definition of this word perfectly describes the calling and ministry of the Lord Jesus,. It means to rule, to be sovereign, a controller, a lord, master, or owner. Used of men, it has no connotation of Deity. Its references to Christ portray him as a king, a ruler. Does this remind you of His role during the millennium? The word not only lets us identify Jesus but also sets apart his humanity from any deity in himself. It is regrettable that the word Lord fails to distinguish between the Hebrew words in our English Bibles, but it helps explain one reason why the dual nature has been overlooked by so many.

THE COUPLING OF THE SON’S NAME

“LORD God” (Jehovah Elohim). These coupled Hebrew words point to the union of deity and humanity of Christ. As the coupling capitalized Lord GOD pointed to God the Father, so the coupling of the names capitalized LORD God always refer to Christ. Again we emphasize that the capitalization style of the words Lord and God is the key to distinguishing between the Father and the Son. Lord GOD always refers to God the Father, while LORD God speaks of His Son. What’s more, there is a message in the Son’s name (Jehovah Elohim) itself. The word Jehovah surely speaks of God’s deity that indwells Christ. Just as surely the word Elohim points to His humanity. Certainly it is not difficult to see that the name “LORD God” represents two natures–deity and humanity in Christ. Remember, truth must be in accord with monotheism, and that God cannot change, and is invisible. Does He have any other option than to create a perfect man whom He can indwell as a means of revealing Himself?

Giving some thought and study to the use of these Hebrew words can pay big dividends in accurately understanding the context of many passages, as well as better appreciating the dual nature of Christ.

[Proclaimer]

Great Larry,

I was actually going to ask you for that. I think this may prove very helpful.

In the meantime I have a Post that shows you how I see things and I think that we may find a lot of common ground here.
I await your comments.

==========================

To GJG and Larry,

Ok I think that we all agree that the Father is God and we differ with the identity of Jesus in some ways. Although I think that my beliefs are certainly very close to that of Larry, maybe even the same. But I disagree with Jesus being the almighty God as GJG pointed out. Here is why.

The scripture says that Jesus is the Word (not God), who became flesh and we know that Jesus pre-existed as the Word. But was the Word/Logos just a thought in the mind of God or was he a person with a will of his own?

Well if we look in Genesis, we see that God said “Let us make man in our image” and as mentioned earlier, this must have been God talking to Christ/Word. We also know from a number of New Testament scriptures that God created all things, through Christ. And in addition we know that the Father is the source of all things that are good as the following scriptures show:

James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Ephesians 3:14
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Moving on we know that the Word pre existed, but in what form?
Well I am not so sure that this really matters in as much as talking about foundational doctrines, (e.g Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God).  I think that it is probably ok to have opinions here without serious consequences or differences with regards to true faith.

Anyway my take on this is that the Word certainly did have a will of his own because God talks to him and created the universe through him and for him. The word HIM is surely depicting a person and this person pre existed because he existed before the world began and God created the worlds through him and for him. This was all prior to Jesus birth as a man into this world.

So as GJG pointed out, the boy Jesus was no ordinary boy even before his baptism where the Spirit descended like a dove upon him. Now before Jesus baptism, he was still the Word in Flesh made possible by the Spirit of God. But after the baptism he himself had something he didn't have before, namely the anointing of God's Spirit and power from on high. Hence the beginning of his ministry. Note: It is now possible for us to have the annointing of the Spirit and power too.

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

1 Corinthians 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

We also know that Jesus is Wisdom of God

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

We also see wisdom being spoken in a conceptual sense then a personal sense in Proverbs 8:22-30, and this does seem to be very similar to the New Testament scriptures regarding Christ.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Compare to

Proverbs 8:22
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”.

Hebrews 1:5-6
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

Compare to

Proverbs 8:24
“When there were no oceans, I was given birth“.
Note: Here is a possible reference to Christ being born, even before being born as a man, followed by him being the first born from the dead.

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Compare to

Proverbs 8:30
“Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”.

The next scripture shows us that God created all through his Son, so does this mean that he was a Son when God created all things?

Hebrews 1:1-6
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Reading on…

John 1:3 (English-NIV)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So it says that God made all things through HIM. Therefore I think he existed as a person because he is called  HIM. More importantly though, if all things that were created were made through Jesus/Yeshua, then that means that the Son whom God made all things through could not be a created being.

Now we are left with the following dilema. Either Christ existed for all eternity with God or was he born from God at some point before all the created things came into existence.

Now I personally think that the Son was the first born of all creation, so he was the actual first person to exist after God and it is certainly clear from scripture that God has given Christ first place in everything.

Now if we look at John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So in the beginning there was the Word and the Word was once God. So there was a time when only God existed. Then God decided to begat (not create) a Son from himself (where else?) and when his son was brought forth, God created all things through his son and for his son because it was God's good pleasure to do so.

I would like to finish with the following scripture which to seems to also point to the idea that Jesus had a source, namely God.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The word HEAD means source/master and this is consistent with the Man being the source of the Woman (Eve from Adam) and with Christ being our source because God made all things including us, through him. That just leaves the bit where God is the source or/and master of Christ.

I also want to point out that Paul wanted us to realise this truth.

[GJG]

The pre-existence of Jesus Christ:

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Heb 7:3 “…having neither beginning of days, nor end of life.”

We must note well that it was His Deity, not His humanity that pre-existed.  Before Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost, the Son existed only in the mind and plan of God.  Also, there must be a mother in order for there to be a begotten son, so that Mary was either, within eternity, or Jesus was born in the fulness of time (not eternity), Heb1:5-6…today I have become your Father.

The Incarnation:

John 1:14   “And the Word became flesh (human incarnate) and tabernacled among us.”  ANT

In the incarnation the Word became flesh.  The dictionary meaning of ‘to incarnate’ is given as ‘to embody in flesh’.  In the incarnation, the Logos became flesh (John 1:14) and God was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16).  This is correct scriptural terminology.  God could not be born of Mary, but He did manifest Himself in that flesh that was born of Mary.  The flesh that was born was the Logos incarnate.  This does not make two persons, for the Logos was God.

Where God refers to ‘us’, is the eternal Deity commnicating with His very own express image: Word, Jesus, Logos.  Is this possible?  Of course it is, if we find evidence in the Bible where the eternal God is communicating with the man-Christ Jesus.  Being an eternal being outside of time makes this possible, but more to the point, completely in line and fully harmonizing all other relevant scripture.

Of course Jesus is the firstborn over all creation.  Is there any other created substance that came into existence by Divine conception?

Also Larry, your description of the dual-nature of Jesus seems to be very much the same as what I believe.  I suppose I am attempting to discover at what point did this ‘Deity clothed in humanity’ or ‘dual-nature’ come into existence.  I believe you say that it happened at Jesus baptism, while I tend to believe it happened while He was still in His mother’s womb; perhaps immediately after conception, as there is Biblical evidence to support this view:

The angel Gabriel informed Mary, that the child within her womb was Holy,

Luke1:35-And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.  

How did this unborn child become Holy without being anointed?  This could only have occurred at, or immediately after, the point of conception, as the very seed was indeed Holy.  This fact is confirmed when Mary, soon after receiving the Holy seed, is given the revelation that she is now the mother of the Lord,

Luke1:43-But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?  

This is again confirmed when the angels reveal to the shepherds that the babe is indeed Christ the Lord,

Luke2:11-Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.

It is clear that the indwelling of God’s Spirit is already evident, as the dual-nature of Jesus has now been declared by the angels themselves.:)

As always: I am open to reproval and correction.

Look 4ward 2 replies.

BTW t8: I do not simply say that Jesus is Almighty God!

[GJG]

Regarding Jesus,

Everytime there is Divine attributes/prerogatives pointing towards Jesus, it is refering to the Spirit inside Him.  Everytime there is human attributes/prerogatives pointing towards Jesus, it is refering to His flesh.

Keeping this in mind makes it much easier to line up scripture.

(Edited by GJG at 3:17 am on Aug. 11, 2003)

[GJG]

To t8 & Larry Gibbons,

I apologize if I fail to put across my meaning in a way that can be properly understood. I am new to this typing/posting thing so I am struggling with just taking in all this new information, especially with some of the lengthy, well studied explanations.

I am obviously not as well educated as the two of you, so I ask that you both be patient with me.

I take it things are going well within this thread as I am actually enjoying reading the different views.

Thanks dudes:)

[Adam Pastor]

Greetings Larry Gibbons

I thoroughly enjoyed your post concerning ‘Lord God’, Adonai & Adon.

However, I thought I should point out some inconsistencies, only in the hope to edify.

You see, the word ‘Adon’ <B>is sometimes</b> used in ref. to Almighty GOD, about 30 times i.e. in the
sense that He is Lord/Owner of the earth
e.g. Josh 3:13, Psa 97:5, Micah 4:13, Zec 4:14, etc.

However the word <b>adoni</b> is NEVER used in ref. to Almighty GOD. It appears 195 times in the Heb. Bible and is NEVER once used in ref. to Almighty GOD. It is solely used in ref. to men (and occasionally angels).

As you so rightly pointed out, Adonai is solely used to when saying ‘My Lord’ in ref. to Almighty GOD. It appears 449 times in the Hebrew Bible.

Sadly, Strong’s concordance does NOT show or number the distinction between adon & adoni. Both are assigned the number 113. (BTW Adonai is 136)

Psalms 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT! It is Jesus’ and the Apostles’ prooftext in defining ‘who Jesus is’! Sadly, the KJV translators capitalised the ‘L’ in Psalms 110:1 i.e. ‘My Lord’ (this is corrected in RSV, NRSV, etc); giving the reader the <B>false impression</b> that Adonai is being used.

The fact is, the Messiah is prophetically referred to as <b>’adoni’ … he is David’s lord, David’s adon(i); since adoni is <u>NEVER</u> used in ref. to ALMIGHTY GOD but solely used in ref. to men & angelic beings; and since we know that Jesus is NOT an angel being</b> [Heb 1:4-7,13-14,2:5-11];<b>then Jesus must be A MAN!</b>

When the early church proclaimed that <b>Jesus is the Lord</b>, they were proclaiming that Jesus was <b>that MAN</b> whom GOD ordained and decreed in Psalms 110, to be the one who would be both Lord & Messiah (Christ) (Acts 2:36), be ‘Lord of all’ (Acts 10:36)and to be seated at His right hand UNTIL the times of restitution begin (Acts 3:21). The early church were not trinitarians nor were they binitarians. Neither did they believe that an angelic being was currently seated at GOD’s right hand. No!

They believe that <b>the man Jesus of Nazareth, whom GOD raised from the dead & immortalized, whom GOD made both Lord & Messiah, was/is currently at the right hand of GOD. This man is the Lord (Adon) Messiah!</b>(Col 3:24 Luke 2:11)

For more info of the usage of ‘Adonai & Adoni’, have a look at http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/adonai.htm
and
<a href="http://www.planetkc.com/stm/lord,_lord,_lord.htm

” target=”_blank”>http://www.planetkc.com/stm/lord,_lord,_lord.htm

Hope this helps

(Edited by Adam Pastor at 6:41 am on Aug. 11, 2003)

[Proclaimer]

Thx Adam Pastor for your input.

I need to learn more about these differences and others with words that are translated as LORD, Lord, lord, God, god, LORD GOD etc.  I know that most trinitarians use Lord and God interchangeably and I know this is not right because there wouldn't be a distinction such as we find many verses. e.g God raised the Lord from the dead etc.

Anymore insight into the Hebrew or Greek would be mucho appreciated.

BTW, do you believe that Jesus pre existed as the Word and if so, was the Word a person?

My belief is that he existed because of at least 3 verses.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us…

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

I am = I existed.

I look forward to your possible reply and I will check out those sites too.

[Adam Pastor]

Greetings t8

NO! I do not believe that Jesus pre-existed his birth.

He came into being just like every other human being (except Adam & Eve) at his conception.

The angel said that which is begotten/conceived of thee shall be called the Son of GOD [Luke 1:35] No man pre-exists his own conception, and that includes the man Christ Jesus.

In John 1:1-4, John is simply alluding to Gen Chap. 1; he is talking about GOD’s word. All things came into being via GOD’s spoken word.

John 1:14 then informs us that in the fulness of time (Gal 4:4), GOD’s [spoken] word became flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

In the plan of GOD, Jesus indeed is before all things including Abraham, because GOD created all things with His Son in mind. Hence when GOD preached/announced the Gospel beforehand to Abraham [Gal 3:8], GOD was making promises to ‘the promised seed’, that is, the Messiah [Gal 3:16], even though he did not literally exist. [Rom 4:17]

Abraham understood that the Messiah was to come through him and through this ‘seed’ all the nations of the world would be blessed.
Hence Abraham rejoiced by faith to see the day of the Messiah [John 8:56]

Note: Jesus never said that he saw Abraham, neither did he say Abraham saw him! No! Abraham saw his day by faith.

So before Abraham, I am he! He who? The ‘I am he’ of John 8:24. Who that? The same that Jesus had been saying from the beginning [v25]; that he was the Messiah.

Therefore before Abraham came into existence, GOD foreordained that Jesus of Nazareth was to be the Messiah (cp. 1 Pet 1:20). In that sense, i.e. in the mind of GOD, Jesus was before Abraham.

Hence before Abraham, I am he? He who? The Messiah.
For GOD foreordained it so before the foundation of the world. By stating this, Jesus was actually asnwering his audience that he was indeed greater than Abraham and the prophets [John 8:53]; because he was the Messiah.

This, the audience could not stomach, and hence attempted to stone him!

Hope this helps
Adam Pastor

[Proclaimer]

Thx Adam Pastor,

First of all I want to say that I think it is great that we being 2 different people have so much in common with our beliefs.

I use to believe in the Trinity doctrine once, only because I thought I had to in order to be called a Christian which meant salvation. As I grew older in the faith God led me by my hand and showed me many great and wonderful truths about himself and Heaven. It was from this leading that I started to see through the religion that I thought I had to belong, and I started to question many doctrines including the Trinity. As time went by, God showed me nearly everytime I read the scriptures, the difference between the creeds of men and the truth of scripture. I then progressed on a journey that has led me to this point of understanding.

I think it is great that we both believe that there is One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ who is the Son of God and the Messiah. He is the Word who became flesh and God created all through him and for him. He is truly the only way to reach God our Father.

However I do disagree on the point of Jesus Christ's pre existance, but as I said before, we both seem to be in agreement with the foundational doctrines of Christ, namely that He is the Christ and the Son of God, (The truth that Jesus built his church upon).

Maybe I am missing something here, but to my eye when I look at John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

and then I look up the words 'I am' in the Strongs (which I know is fallible), I get the following interpretation.

I = I, me (Strongs # 1473='ego')
am = am, have been, it is, was (Strongs # 1510='eimi')

I don't see that this is saying anything except “he existed”.

In addition to that if I read the following scriptures it seems to back up this view.

John 5:30
I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Would not this verse say who created me. Because I understand to be sent means that you have to exist. Otherwise I too could say that I was sent into the World by God, but I think it is correct to say that I was created because I didn't pre exist.

John 17:1-5
Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee, since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

Jesus claims that he had glory with the Father before the world began.

In the Strongs, the word glory is as follows:
glory = dignity, honour, praise, worship, magnificence (Strongs # 1391 = 'doxa' and Strongs # 1392 for glorify).

Anyway a literal translation of that verse goes something like this:
“glory Me You, Father, with yourself with the glory that I had before the of the world being with you.”

I look forward to your possible reply.

[e man]

Jesus asked his disciples who they thought he was. They answered that he was the son of God. It seems Jesus was not here claiming to be God, nor claiming that God revealed to his disciples that he was God, but simply that he was the Son of God.

There is a common sense view that there was a popular rumor during Jesus’ life (especially during his ministry) that Jesus was concieved by fornication (an illegitimate son). Anyone today would think this of a man the identity of whose father was in doubt. Thus, I assume that this was the implicit context of Jesus’ question here. As I see it, the answer his disciples gave had nothing whatever to do with the question of whether Jesus was God-incarnate, but simply with who was Jesus, in terms of who his father was (they were, after all, quite under the impression that Jesus was a man, like them: they were in his presence and saw a man in front of them, and would thus be in rights to assume he is a man). I doubt that Joseph would have claimed to be Jesus’ biological father if Joseph was asked about the fact that Mary was ‘found with child’ before they were married; so, there would be the question in the minds of all as to who was Jesus’ father and thus who was Jesus. Like political figures of today who are reported to have been involved in some scandal, any strong rumor of Jesus’ supposed illegitimacy would have become well-known once Jesus became a very popular figure.

If he were thought to be a mere prophet, then he could still be considered of illegitimate conception. This is what some thought. But, was there not another rumor going around, one that recounted the angel’s visitation to Mary, and the dream of Joseph? Who would believe that rumor, it was difficult? Difficulty aside, all the evidence pointed to its truth. Yet, the idea that Jesus was the son of God was an idea not taught among the Pharisees, and thus was not a ‘plain teaching’ in those days. Yet, some believed that Jesus was telling the truth when he said that God was his father, for how can a prophet of Jehovah lie? The Pharisees decided he must have a demon, for they were already dead-set in the idea that he was illegitimate. They could convict him of no sin but blaspheme, and this they had to do in order to keep from having to admit their guilt before him as their judge and their Messiah. He had told them, almost from the first, that they planned to kill him, yet they need not have had any such plan at the time he told them this, because they were already guilty of self-righteousness and thus refused to give his claim of who his father was a fair hearing. They would die in their sins because they would not exchange their self-righteousness for his claim.

I note that those who are hot against heresy on both sides of the Is-Jesus-God question tend to wrench more out of a passage than the common sense would indicate. We have to put ourselves in the shoes of those who were there, just like would be required to deduce what God meant Abraham to reason out of the incredible request to sacrifice Isaac. You have to see it from Abraham’s point of view, by looking at everything that God said and did in relation to Abraham up to that point. Abraham was looking at all of it. He couldn’t help it. But, the account does not tell us in words what Abraham reasoned (Hebrews 11:17-19 ‘spells it out for dumbies’). The same applies to the question of who Jesus is in the ultimate sense of the God-incarate question. Those passages that do not address the question, but that one or both sides like to assume address the question, cannot rightly be used to support the view of either side.

[Author]

Posts