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Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2005,16:19) Are true Christians today identified by the ability to do miraculous healing? John 13:35: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (This is what Jesus said. If we really believe him, we look for love, not miraculous healing, as evidence of true Christianity.)
Acts 1:8: “You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Just before leaving his apostles to return to heaven, Jesus told them that this, not healing, was the vital work they were to do. See also Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20.)
1 Cor. 12:28-30: “God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? Not all have gifts of healings, do they?” (So, the Bible clearly shows that not all true Christians would have the gift of healing.)
Does not Mark 16:17, 18 show that ability to heal the sick would be a sign identifying believers?
Mark 16:17, 18, KJ: “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
These verses appear in certain Bible manuscripts and versions of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E. But they do not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vatican MS. 1209 of the fourth century. Dr. B. F. Westcott, an authority on Bible manuscripts, said that “the verses . . . are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London, 1881, p. 338) Bible translator Jerome, in the fifth century, said that “almost all the Greek codices [are] without this passage.” (The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark, London, 1871, J. W. Burgon, p. 53) The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) says: “Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it [that is, verses 9-20].” (Vol. IX, p. 240) There is no record that early Christians either drank poison or handled serpents to prove they were believers.
Why were such gifts as the ability to do miraculous healing given to first-century Christians?
Heb. 2:3, 4: “How shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through our Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?” (Here was convincing evidence, indeed, that the Christian congregation, which was then new, was truly of God. But once that was fully established, would it be necessary to prove it again and again?)
1 Cor. 12:29, 30; 13:8, 13: “Not all are prophets, are they? . . . Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? . . . Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease . . . Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” (When they had accomplished their purpose, those miraculous gifts would cease. But priceless qualities that are the fruitage of God’s spirit would still be manifest in the lives of true Christians.)
WHAT KIND OF EVIDENCE WOULD “MIRACLES, HEALINGS OR OTHER SIGNS AND WONDERS” REALLY BE?
2 Thess. 2:9, 10: “The lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work [“all kinds of miracles,” JB] and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.”
Hi david,
Scripture does not say the gifts have ceased. It says they will. It does not say all spiritual power is now of Satan. It does say there are counterfeit powers.We would be unwise to rely only on powers as evidence of our life in Jesus because some of those casting out demons in his name are not known by him.
We need to be known of him. We need to have our name written in the book of life.
It you expect no power of God you will see none. But we limit God. God is not changed or limited.
When those with the Spirit are resurrected and raptured surely there will be no power available to those left behind in the great tribulation. It is better to be in him and with our oil topped up.
Quote (david @ Sep. 04 2005,04:53) And whose teachings have you found to be of true knowledge?
Hi david,
Those of Jesus Christ, the apostles and prophets. The rest pale into obscurity in comparison. What about you?sorry, since you said that you have not found the teachings of JW's to be of true knowlege, I was asking you who ON EARTH teaches this true knowledge. I may have worded it badly.
Obviously, I hold everything Jesus and the prophets said as true.Hi d,
We have found no denomination to be purveyors of the truth yet. That is why we search ourselves and find treasures by the Spirit.A lot of people haven't found the trinity to be a false teaching yet. And a lot of people never will.
you haven't found any denomination that fits your belief system, that fits the scriptures as you understand them.
That's the precise reason we're having this conversation Nick.
I suggest this:
Look a little harder.
Hi david,
To share an awareness of a false belief is no reason for joining a denomination with many other false beliefs is it?Hey Nick
I was just saying: Just because you haven't found something, doesn't mean it's not there.
I only used the trinity as an example because this is supposed to be the trinity thread.Hi david,
Keep your heart open and don't be satisfied with what you now understand as there may be much more.Hey Nick. Just wondering what book you're reading in that picture (if that is you). It seems to have pictures in it. Also wondering what's in the background.
David
Quote (david @ Sep. 08 2005,07:22) Hey Nick. Just wondering what book you're reading in that picture (if that is you). It seems to have pictures in it. Also wondering what's in the background. David
Hi David,
I am sure the Jehovahs Witnesses must have strong ethical standards when it comes to personal privacy. When you go door knocking and you find a no one home and the house locked do you
1 Leave?
2 Pick the lock, go in and look around and leave locking the door behind you?
3 Pick the lock, go in, look around, leave a note on the kitchen table and then leave?If your choice is 3 then what possible christian motives could you ascribes to such actions? Clearly you have hacked a private forum here.
That is my lovely family behind me and I am reading my old American Standard catholic bible which I still use for cross referencing scripture as it is the best for that purpose.
Sorry david,
My mistake. I apologise for jumping to wrong conclusions and for my wrong accusation or any hurt that might have come from it. You are referring to the little picture on my posts? no that is not me but an avatar taken from the options on the site.Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2005,08:45) “WE WILL GO WITH YOU PEOPLE, FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT GOD IS WITH YOU PEOPLE.” ZECHARIAH 8:23
““This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’””The more I look, the more I find scriptures that show that God's people would be organized.
Hi david,
Organization is important? i would have thought this scripture highlights the fact that God is “with” these people.Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2005,20:13) M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (Vol. VI, p. 320) says that it is “an uncontested statement that during the first hundred years after the death of the apostles we hear little or nothing of the working of miracles by the early Christians.” Nevertheless, Jesus and his apostles warned of future deceptive powerful works that would be done by apostates and also by a symbolic wild beast, enemies of God.—Mt 7:21-23; 24:23-25; 2Th 2:9, 10; Re 13:11-13
LET'S DIG A LITTLE DEEPER.
At 1 Corinthians 13:8 reference is made to several miraculous gifts—prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Verse 9 again refers to two of these gifts—knowledge and prophecy—saying: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.” (KJ) Or, as RS reads: “For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect.” Then verse 10 states: “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (KJ) The word “perfect” is translated from the Greek te´lei·on, which conveys the thought of being full grown, complete, or perfect. Ro, By, and NW here render it “complete.” Notice that it is not the gift of tongues that is said to be “imperfect,” “in part,” or partial. That is said of “prophecy” and “knowledge.” In other words, even with those miraculous gifts, the early Christians had only an imperfect or partial understanding of God’s purpose. But when the prophecies would come to fulfillment, when God’s purpose would be accomplished, then “that which is perfect,” or complete, would come. So, this is obviously not discussing how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would continue.
However, the Bible does indicate how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would be a part of Christian experience. According to the record, this gift and the other gifts of the spirit were always conveyed to persons by the laying on of hands of the apostles of Jesus Christ or in their presence. (Acts 2:4, 14, 17; 10:44-46; 19:6; see also Acts 8:14-18.) Thus, after their death and when the individuals who in that way had received the gifts died, the miraculous gifts resulting from the operation of God’s spirit must have come to their end.
Such a view agrees with the purpose of those gifts as stated at Hebrews 2:2-4.To fortify their testimony, the apostles continued to exercise the miraculous powers previously granted them by Jesus, and also other gifts of the spirit received from Pentecost forward. (Ac 5:12; 9:36-40) While others, too, received such miraculous gifts of the spirit, the account shows that such was the case only when one or more of the apostles were present, or by the laying on of the hands of the apostles. Paul, though not one of the 12, also served in this way as an apostle personally appointed by Jesus Christ. (Ac 2:1, 4, 14; 8:14-18; 10:44; 19:6) Thus the power to transmit such gifts was unique with these apostles. Such miraculous gifts would therefore pass away with the passing away of these apostles and of those who had received these gifts through the apostles (1Co 13:2, 8-11), and thus we read that these powers were:
“missing in the 2nd-century church, the writers of those days speaking of them as a thing in the past—in the apostolic age, in fact.”
—The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980, Vol. 1, p. 79.LORD, LORD, LOOK AT ME. LOOK AT ME, I PERFORMED POWERFUL WORKS…
Jesus cautioned: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one DOING THE WILL of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform MANY POWERFUL WORKS in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” —Matthew 7:21-23
The one doing the will of my father, said Jesus.
What is God’s will for his people today? Jesus said: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations.” (Matthew 24:14) This is the work that Jehovah’s Witnesses are carrying out with zeal.
Hi david,
You quote history and trinitarians such as Westcott to support your claim that the power of God's Spirit was withdrawn after the first century. You suggest God had given the evidence and it was no longer necessary to give more. then is the Spirit of God no longer given or is there no more power given?
Acts 2 38f
” … and you shall receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For this promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself”
Rom 8.9
“… If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him”Again I ask has the Spirit changed to be powerless now or is the religion preached now of the powerless type Paul warned us about?
In reply to your first post above, your paranoi was scaring me a little, but that's ok.
I had no idea what you were talking about.
Yes, i meant the little picture that appears with all your posts.
No, I haven't hacked into some private forum about you and your family.
I think hacking is illegal Nick.david
WHY THE MIRACULOUS GIFTS?
HEBREWS 2:2-4
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through [our] Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”Why did they have the power to heal?
Even further, why did Jesus heal people when he was on earth? Why did he perform miracles? What was the purpose of those miracles Nick?I'm curious as to what you think.
Quote (david @ Sep. 09 2005,00:47) How do I get one of these … avatars?
Hi david,
Click on your own name on a post, then onto “control panel” then “personal Info” and avatar options come up.Quote (david @ Sep. 09 2005,00:51) WHY THE MIRACULOUS GIFTS?
HEBREWS 2:2-4
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through [our] Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”
Hi ,
Does God no longer give evidence of His Spirit's anointing?He does and He will.
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