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FINALLY, we're getting somwhere.
Nick said:
“I love gathering together with those who are in Christ. Most world religions do not bring men to Christ.”
I am genuinely truly wondering how you gather together and who this is with? Please.
“Most world religions do not bring men to Christ,” Nick?
So you're saying there may be one that does. This seems to be a shift from the impression I got from you before.Dave
Hi d,
Why don't you share your knowledge on this subject. Is the Jehovah's witness church the only way to God…or a way at all?Salvation is a free gift, of undeserved kindness. I'm not sure that “obtain” is the right word.
Once a person is saved, is he always saved?
Jude 5, RS: “I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, AFTERWARD DESTROYED those who did not believe.”
Matt. 24:13, RS: “He who endures to the end will be saved.” (So a person’s final salvation is not determined at the moment that he begins to put faith in Jesus.)
Phil. 2:12, RS: “As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (This was addressed to “the saints,” or holy ones, at Philippi, as stated in Philippians 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to realize that their final salvation was not yet assured.)
Heb. 10:26, 27, RS: “If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.” (Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what sins a person may commit after he is “saved” he will not lose his salvation. It encourages faithfulness. See also Hebrews 6:4-6, where it is shown that even a person anointed with holy spirit can lose his hope of salvation.)
Is anything more than faith needed in order to gain salvation?
Eph. 2:8, 9, RS: “By grace [“undeserved kindness,” NW] you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God’s undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.)
Heb. 5:9, RS: “He [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.” (Italics added.) (Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are “saved through faith”? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine.)
Jas. 2:14, 26, RS: “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.)
Acts 16:30, 31, RS: “‘Men, what must I do to be saved?’ And they [Paul and Silas] said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” (If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly.)
Hi david,
Read on in Acts 16v31f
“And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all that were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and IMMEDIATELY HE WAS BAPTISED, HE AND ALL HIS HOUSEHOLD”
Would you judge Paul to have been wrong to baptise them, or was the meaning of the verse you showed revealed by the following context?Acts 16:30-32, RS: “‘Men, what must I do to be saved?’ And they [Paul and Silas] said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’ And they spoke the word of the Lord [“God,” NAB, also JB and NE footnotes; “God’s message,” AT] to him and to all that were in his house.” (Was that man’s ‘believing in the Lord Jesus’ just a matter of his saying sincerely that he believed? Paul showed that more was required—namely, knowledge and acceptance of the Word of God, as Paul and Silas now proceeded to preach it to the jailer. Would a person’s belief in Jesus be genuine if he did not worship the God whom Jesus worshiped, if he did not apply what Jesus taught as to the kind of persons his disciples should be, or if he did not do the work that Jesus commanded his followers to perform? We cannot earn salvation; it is possible only on the basis of faith in the value of the sacrifice of Jesus’ human life. But our lives must be consistent with the faith that we profess, even though that may involve hardship. At Matthew 10:22 [RS] Jesus said: “He who endures to the end will be saved.”)
Nick, if one truly believes in the lord Jesus, will he not act on that belief?
It seems that a lot of people say: 'I believe in the lord, I believe in the lord.'
It's easy to say those words.MATTHEW 7:21-23
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, BUT THE ONE DOING THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”Hi d,
Do you not just have a little doubt as to how much is enough? Jesus has witnesses to his faith in heaven as 1Jn 5.7 tells us. We too can have that witness and have our names written in the book of life. God makes just demands of obedience on our faith . But having faith in a religion or in an assembly does not cut it. We have to go through the gate[Jn 10]
Even demons believe[James].I just realized we're discussing the topic of Salvation in the trinity forum.
Let's now sum things up, or rather, let someone wiser than both of us, sum things up:
ECCLESIASTES 12:13
“The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man.”OK, now that that's done, let's go back to this idea of going it alone.
1 PETER 2:17
“Honor [men] of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, have honor for the king.”1 PETER 5:9
“But take YOUR stand against him, solid in the faith, knowing that the same things in the way of sufferings are being accomplished in the entire association of YOUR brothers in the world.”So I was wondering Nick, what your thoughts were on brotherhood.
How do you fit into this brotherhood?Since we are told not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together at Heb 10:24,25, and since the early Christian congregation seemed organized, (1 Tim 3:1-10, 12,13; Titus 1:5-9; 1 pet 5:2,3) as God's people always have been, and since the Bible refers to a worldwide brotherhood, I actually find it hard to understand how you can say that you don't have to be part of a group of fellow believers.
I'm not sure what you meant when you said: “Do you not just have a little doubt as to how much is enough?” What is “enough” that you refer to?
Hi d,
If you are in fellowship with God by being reborn into the Son then you can have true fellowship with others in the Son. Fellowship outside of the Son of God is false fellowship and a delusion of security.“WE WILL GO WITH YOU PEOPLE, FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT GOD IS WITH YOU PEOPLE.”
ZECHARIAH 8:23
““This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’””The more I look, the more I find scriptures that show that God's people would be organized.
Hi d,
What is the evidence that God is with your organisation? Miracles, healings or other signs and wonders?[Mk 16]Are true Christians today identified by the ability to do miraculous healing?
John 13:35: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (This is what Jesus said. If we really believe him, we look for love, not miraculous healing, as evidence of true Christianity.)
Acts 1:8: “You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Just before leaving his apostles to return to heaven, Jesus told them that this, not healing, was the vital work they were to do. See also Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20.)
1 Cor. 12:28-30: “God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? Not all have gifts of healings, do they?” (So, the Bible clearly shows that not all true Christians would have the gift of healing.)
Does not Mark 16:17, 18 show that ability to heal the sick would be a sign identifying believers?
Mark 16:17, 18, KJ: “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
These verses appear in certain Bible manuscripts and versions of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E. But they do not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vatican MS. 1209 of the fourth century. Dr. B. F. Westcott, an authority on Bible manuscripts, said that “the verses . . . are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London, 1881, p. 338) Bible translator Jerome, in the fifth century, said that “almost all the Greek codices [are] without this passage.” (The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark, London, 1871, J. W. Burgon, p. 53) The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) says: “Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it [that is, verses 9-20].” (Vol. IX, p. 240) There is no record that early Christians either drank poison or handled serpents to prove they were believers.
Why were such gifts as the ability to do miraculous healing given to first-century Christians?
Heb. 2:3, 4: “How shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through our Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?” (Here was convincing evidence, indeed, that the Christian congregation, which was then new, was truly of God. But once that was fully established, would it be necessary to prove it again and again?)
1 Cor. 12:29, 30; 13:8, 13: “Not all are prophets, are they? . . . Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? . . . Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease . . . Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” (When they had accomplished their purpose, those miraculous gifts would cease. But priceless qualities that are the fruitage of God’s spirit would still be manifest in the lives of true Christians.)
WHAT KIND OF EVIDENCE WOULD “MIRACLES, HEALINGS OR OTHER SIGNS AND WONDERS” REALLY BE?
2 Thess. 2:9, 10: “The lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work [“all kinds of miracles,” JB] and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.”
Miracles and wonders can be signs but satan can use them to fool people. Also I believe Mk 16:9-20 belongs
Irenaeus/Justin in the 2nd century mentions verses in it.Hi david,
Does the Holy Spirit change in nature? Is there no power now available? Is the Holy Spirit not given now?
Acts 2 28f
” ….Repent and each of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all those who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself”
The Father promises to give all His children who ask.
Lk 11.13
” If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him”
The only reasons we do not see the work of power among us is that men do not believe the Word, do not obey the command to go through the gate and become His children and do not ask for what is freely given. God is not the problem but the rebellion of men is.Will there be faith on earth when Jesus returns? There will be powerless religion and smug churchianity but faith?
2 Tim 3.5
“holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied it's power. Avoid such men as these.”M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (Vol. VI, p. 320) says that it is “an uncontested statement that during the first hundred years after the death of the apostles we hear little or nothing of the working of miracles by the early Christians.”
Nevertheless, Jesus and his apostles warned of future deceptive powerful works that would be done by apostates and also by a symbolic wild beast, enemies of God.—Mt 7:21-23; 24:23-25; 2Th 2:9, 10; Re 13:11-13
LET'S DIG A LITTLE DEEPER.
At 1 Corinthians 13:8 reference is made to several miraculous gifts—prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Verse 9 again refers to two of these gifts—knowledge and prophecy—saying: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.” (KJ) Or, as RS reads: “For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect.” Then verse 10 states: “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (KJ) The word “perfect” is translated from the Greek te´lei·on, which conveys the thought of being full grown, complete, or perfect. Ro, By, and NW here render it “complete.” Notice that it is not the gift of tongues that is said to be “imperfect,” “in part,” or partial. That is said of “prophecy” and “knowledge.” In other words, even with those miraculous gifts, the early Christians had only an imperfect or partial understanding of God’s purpose. But when the prophecies would come to fulfillment, when God’s purpose would be accomplished, then “that which is perfect,” or complete, would come. So, this is obviously not discussing how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would continue.
However, the Bible does indicate how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would be a part of Christian experience. According to the record, this gift and the other gifts of the spirit were always conveyed to persons by the laying on of hands of the apostles of Jesus Christ or in their presence. (Acts 2:4, 14, 17; 10:44-46; 19:6; see also Acts 8:14-18.) Thus, after their death and when the individuals who in that way had received the gifts died, the miraculous gifts resulting from the operation of God’s spirit must have come to their end.
Such a view agrees with the purpose of those gifts as stated at Hebrews 2:2-4.To fortify their testimony, the apostles continued to exercise the miraculous powers previously granted them by Jesus, and also other gifts of the spirit received from Pentecost forward. (Ac 5:12; 9:36-40) While others, too, received such miraculous gifts of the spirit, the account shows that such was the case only when one or more of the apostles were present, or by the laying on of the hands of the apostles. Paul, though not one of the 12, also served in this way as an apostle personally appointed by Jesus Christ. (Ac 2:1, 4, 14; 8:14-18; 10:44; 19:6) Thus the power to transmit such gifts was unique with these apostles. Such miraculous gifts would therefore pass away with the passing away of these apostles and of those who had received these gifts through the apostles (1Co 13:2, 8-11), and thus we read that these powers were:
“missing in the 2nd-century church, the writers of those days speaking of them as a thing in the past—in the apostolic age, in fact.”
—The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980, Vol. 1, p. 79.LORD, LORD, LOOK AT ME. LOOK AT ME, I PERFORMED POWERFUL WORKS…
Jesus cautioned: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one DOING THE WILL of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform MANY POWERFUL WORKS in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” —Matthew 7:21-23
The one doing the will of my father, said Jesus.
What is God’s will for his people today? Jesus said: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations.” (Matthew 24:14) This is the work that Jehovah’s Witnesses are carrying out with zeal.
Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2005,20:13) M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (Vol. VI, p. 320) says that it is “an uncontested statement that during the first hundred years after the death of the apostles we hear little or nothing of the working of miracles by the early Christians.” Nevertheless, Jesus and his apostles warned of future deceptive powerful works that would be done by apostates and also by a symbolic wild beast, enemies of God.—Mt 7:21-23; 24:23-25; 2Th 2:9, 10; Re 13:11-13
LET'S DIG A LITTLE DEEPER.
At 1 Corinthians 13:8 reference is made to several miraculous gifts—prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Verse 9 again refers to two of these gifts—knowledge and prophecy—saying: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.” (KJ) Or, as RS reads: “For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect.” Then verse 10 states: “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (KJ) The word “perfect” is translated from the Greek te´lei·on, which conveys the thought of being full grown, complete, or perfect. Ro, By, and NW here render it “complete.” Notice that it is not the gift of tongues that is said to be “imperfect,” “in part,” or partial. That is said of “prophecy” and “knowledge.” In other words, even with those miraculous gifts, the early Christians had only an imperfect or partial understanding of God’s purpose. But when the prophecies would come to fulfillment, when God’s purpose would be accomplished, then “that which is perfect,” or complete, would come. So, this is obviously not discussing how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would continue.
However, the Bible does indicate how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would be a part of Christian experience. According to the record, this gift and the other gifts of the spirit were always conveyed to persons by the laying on of hands of the apostles of Jesus Christ or in their presence. (Acts 2:4, 14, 17; 10:44-46; 19:6; see also Acts 8:14-18.) Thus, after their death and when the individuals who in that way had received the gifts died, the miraculous gifts resulting from the operation of God’s spirit must have come to their end.
Such a view agrees with the purpose of those gifts as stated at Hebrews 2:2-4.To fortify their testimony, the apostles continued to exercise the miraculous powers previously granted them by Jesus, and also other gifts of the spirit received from Pentecost forward. (Ac 5:12; 9:36-40) While others, too, received such miraculous gifts of the spirit, the account shows that such was the case only when one or more of the apostles were present, or by the laying on of the hands of the apostles. Paul, though not one of the 12, also served in this way as an apostle personally appointed by Jesus Christ. (Ac 2:1, 4, 14; 8:14-18; 10:44; 19:6) Thus the power to transmit such gifts was unique with these apostles. Such miraculous gifts would therefore pass away with the passing away of these apostles and of those who had received these gifts through the apostles (1Co 13:2, 8-11), and thus we read that these powers were:
“missing in the 2nd-century church, the writers of those days speaking of them as a thing in the past—in the apostolic age, in fact.”
—The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980, Vol. 1, p. 79.LORD, LORD, LOOK AT ME. LOOK AT ME, I PERFORMED POWERFUL WORKS…
Jesus cautioned: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one DOING THE WILL of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform MANY POWERFUL WORKS in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” —Matthew 7:21-23
The one doing the will of my father, said Jesus.
What is God’s will for his people today? Jesus said: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations.” (Matthew 24:14) This is the work that Jehovah’s Witnesses are carrying out with zeal.
Hi david,
Zeal must be combined with true knowledge.
Rom 10.1f
” Brethren, my heart's desire, and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God; but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves tp the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes”So, instead of commenting on what we're talking about and replying to my statement, you find a word (zeal) and quote a scripture with that word in it.
Very good Nick.Yes Nick, Zeal must be combined with true knowledge. No one disagrees with that.
So I assume by your silence that you now agree with what we were actually talking about.
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