The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi d,
I shook the dust of catholicism from my feet 22 years ago. I prayed for fellowship and was led here. I would love to share at greater depth but who wants to?I have been a part of quite a few groups before but love of tradition by the leaders has caused me to be excluded.So I work where I am enabled.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2005,03:16)

Love for God and love for neighbor, the two greatest commandments.  On those, the whole law hangs. If you love your neighbor, you will try to warn them, to warn them that judgement is coming, to warn them that what they believe may not be true and to bring them good news, the best news possible. I know this forum is one way to do that.  What of those that don't have the internet.  I've only had it for 5 months.   How will you make sure everyone has the chance to hear the good news?  Something this important.  Shouldn't it be…organized?

Hi david,
We, as gentiles, have never been under the Law. We do not take on heavier burdens than we are capable of carrying but turn up for the work given, the easy yoke, every day. It is a great pleasure to do little things and to leave the burden to the Lord.

[david]

Sorry Nick,
It seems we've changed our tone. I'm not attacking you. Anyone that doesn't believe in the trinity and can explain why, is one of my favoritest people. It's just there are precious few who don't believe in the trinity. There's like, what 20 people on this site. Add those to the 6 million JW's and that makes six million and 20, roughly. It's just I've never talked to anyone outside of my religion that actually knew what they were talking about when it came to trinity. I've talked to ministers, priests, and a whole lot of lay people who i've approached and they all have this “hypnotically blind” look on their face when you show them a simple scripture about God. So, I was just wondering who the other 20 people were. I've also talked to or actually studied with a Mormon or two. I don't remember them not believing the trinity. Or don't they?

[david]

Of course we're not under the law. But the principles behind the law still apply. I'd love to chat more, but have to be gone for a little while.

david

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
The work of the indwelling Spirit of God will lead to good behaviours, such as shown in the Law. But observance of the law, such as following the 10 commandments, without salvation through Jesus, is useless for gentiles.

[david]

Nick, I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

I was simply stressing how much importance is put on loving ones neighbor and loving God, and wondering if you can really reach the majority of mankind with this good news without some organization.

And if you could follow God's son command to “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations…” if you could do this in all the nations if you're not organized. I'm not saying you're not organized. I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

Then we went in this direction, of the law. So, back to my original question.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
You don't put your lamp under a cover but let it shine forth the light and love of Christ and the Word. You are the salt of the earth, leavening the earth to make it palatable for the Creator. But the religious organisations of men?

“Come out of her my people..”

[david]

I already did. I stepped out of Catholicism just like you.
I've been kicked out of my grandma's will, yelled at by my father, had my father tear up Bibles, just as it says: Do you think I came to bring peace to the earth? A man's enemies will be persons of his own household, Mother against daughter, etc, or something like that. I don't have time to look it up, you're getting ahead of me on these posts. (Just a joke)

And I've come out of the world. I don't celebrate it's holiays. I don't take part in it's politics. I don't endorse it's customs. While Jesus said his followers would be no part of the world, they would also be organized. The Christian congregation was organized before the apostasy. The Israelite nation was organized. It was his people. Look at your forum for a sec. How many people know that God has a name, let alone use it? How many people or religions don't believe in the trinity?
Now, how many religions feel that this is important enough to share with everyone?

[NickHassan]

Hi david,

What is a religion?

Is it not a human organisation?

Is there any religion founded by Jesus Christ?

We need to dig deep and base our foundation on the rock of Jesus and his teachings and not man's doctrines. Why come out of the fowler's trap and fall into another pit?

Is it insecurity and self doubt that leads to men following men?

[david]

this is what my computer dictionary says:

religion
1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
2 a particular system of faith and worship
3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.

I think you yourself have a religion, based on these definitions.

Jehovah has had human organizations in the past, although I'd prefer to call them his visible organizations. The Israelites where organized as a people, with law and with a way of worship.
Somewhere on here, you quoted: “the form of worship that is clean and undefiled is to look after orphans and widows….”
Are there any orphans and widows in your organization? How could there be? How can you look after them if there is no organization?

I agree, we need to dig deep, as for hidden treasure and base our foundation on the rock of Jesus, the cornerstone.
Let's dig into this scripture:

HEBREWS 10:24-25
“And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.”
As we behold the day drawing near, how much more important encouragement is from our brothers. We get that by “gathering ourselves together.” We are told to not forsake that.

“Is it insecurity and self doubt that leads to men following men?” you ask.

yes, following men, wrong. When the early Christians (let's say, Paul, Peter, etc) preached to people and people responded, were those that accepted the message following men?
There needs to be an instrument by which people can be told the good news. The rocks themselves would cry out if we were silent. But I don't hear any rocks. It's not necessary. There are people everywhere talking to others about God's Kingdom.
What's that? Is someone knocking on your door?
How many people stumble upon this website? How effective is it at reaching “the entire inhabited earth?”

[david]

Do you really know what you are reading? asked Philip to the Eunuch.
HIS RESPONCE IS KEY TO OUR DISCUSSION. PLEASE COMMENT ON IT.

ACTS 8:26-31
“However, Jehovah’s angel spoke to Philip, saying: “Rise and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Ga´za.” (This is a desert road.) With that he rose and went, and, look! an E·thi·o´pi·an eunuch, a man in power under Can·da´ce queen of the E·thi·o´pi·ans, and who was over all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, but he was returning and was sitting in his chariot and reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. So the spirit said to Philip: “Approach and join yourself to this chariot.” Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him.”

[david]

The Eunach's responce to Philip's question:

'How really could I [understand what I am reading in the scriptures] unless someone guided me?'

BEING AS THIS IS KEY TO OUR DISCUSSION, I WOULD REALLY LIKE A COMMENT ON THIS SCRIPTURE.

ACTS 8:26-31
“However, Jehovah’s angel spoke to Philip, saying: “Rise and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Ga´za.” (This is a desert road.) With that he rose and went, and, look! an E·thi·o´pi·an eunuch, a man in power under Can·da´ce queen of the E·thi·o´pi·ans, and who was over all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, but he was returning and was sitting in his chariot and reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. So the spirit said to Philip: “Approach and join yourself to this chariot.” Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him.”

[david]

(if this shows up more than once, I'm sorry, it wasn't working.)

The Eunach's responce to Philip's question:

'How really could I [understand what I am reading in the scriptures] unless someone guided me?'

BEING AS THIS IS KEY TO OUR DISCUSSION, I WOULD REALLY LIKE A COMMENT ON THIS SCRIPTURE.

ACTS 8:26-31
“However, Jehovah’s angel spoke to Philip, saying: “Rise and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Ga´za.” (This is a desert road.) With that he rose and went, and, look! an E·thi·o´pi·an eunuch, a man in power under Can·da´ce queen of the E·thi·o´pi·ans, and who was over all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, but he was returning and was sitting in his chariot and reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. So the spirit said to Philip: “Approach and join yourself to this chariot.” Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him.”

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2005,12:52)

Do you really know what you are reading? asked Philip to the Eunuch. HIS RESPONCE IS KEY TO OUR DISCUSSION.  PLEASE COMMENT ON IT. ACTS 8:26-31 “However, Jehovah’s angel spoke to Philip, saying: “Rise and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Ga´za.” (This is a desert road.) With that he rose and went, and, look! an E·thi·o´pi·an eunuch, a man in power under Can·da´ce queen of the E·thi·o´pi·ans, and who was over all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, but he was returning and was sitting in his chariot and reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. So the spirit said to Philip: “Approach and join yourself to this chariot.” Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him.”

Hi d,
To know is to understand. The eunuch was as natural man reading what is of the Spirit and it was as mystery to him. Phillip was anointed of the Spirit of God and thus was able to expound the Word to the open heart of the eunuch.
“Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God”
What was said can be judged by the appropriate response of the eunuch. Phillip spoke of salvation in Jesus through being born again of water and the Spirit as the eunuch saw the water and asked to be baptised.
Phillip did his part and was taken away leaving the anointing of the Spirit to others or to personal prayer [Lk11.13]as was his ministry.

[liljon]

Quote (david @ Aug. 31 2005,19:42)

liljohn, Does it strike you as odd that Jesus or the holy spirit aren't referred to as “most high” ever?  Yet Jehovah is referred to as “most high” 50 times in the Bible.

But Christ and the Holy spirit are YHWH

[NickHassan]

Quote (liljon @ Sep. 01 2005,20:42)

Quote (david @ Aug. 31 2005,19:42) liljohn, Does it strike you as odd that Jesus or the holy spirit aren't referred to as “most high” ever?  Yet Jehovah is referred to as “most high” 50 times in the Bible. But Christ and the Holy spirit are YHWH

Hi liljon,
The Spirit of YHWH is never separate from YHWH.
But Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of YHWH.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2005,12:50)

this is what my computer dictionary says: religion 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion. I think you yourself have a religion, based on these definitions. Jehovah has had human organizations in the past, although I'd prefer to call them his visible organizations.  The Israelites where organized as a people, with law and with a way of worship. Somewhere on here, you quoted: “the form of worship that is clean and undefiled is to look after orphans and widows….” Are there any orphans and widows in your organization?  How could there be?  How can you look after them if there is no organization? I agree, we need to dig deep, as for hidden treasure and base our foundation on the rock of Jesus, the cornerstone. Let's dig into this scripture: HEBREWS 10:24-25 “And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.” As we behold the day drawing near, how much more important encouragement is from our brothers.  We get that by “gathering ourselves together.”  We are told to not forsake that. “Is it insecurity and self doubt that leads to men following men?” you ask. yes, following men, wrong.  When the early Christians (let's say, Paul, Peter, etc) preached to people and people responded, were those that accepted the message following men?   There needs to be an instrument by which people can be told the good news.  The rocks themselves would cry out if we were silent.  But I don't hear any rocks.  It's not necessary.  There are people everywhere talking to others about God's Kingdom.   What's that?  Is someone knocking on your door? How many people stumble upon this website?  How effective is it at reaching “the entire inhabited earth?”

Hi david,
If your religion does not preach salvation by being born again of water and the Spirit then all the knocking on doors they do is further leading men away from God.
They may travel around the world making proselytes for themselves but are they really putting further barriers between them and their God?
To preach falsehood is worse than saying nothing at all. That is why few should seek to be teachers.
We do not serve the doctrines of men but we show them what God is offering them and give them the choice of accepting or rejecting the message of God.
1Thess 2.13
” And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it , not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the Word of God, which also performs it's work in you who believe”

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2005,12:50)

this is what my computer dictionary says: religion 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion. I think you yourself have a religion, based on these definitions. Jehovah has had human organizations in the past, although I'd prefer to call them his visible organizations.  The Israelites where organized as a people, with law and with a way of worship. Somewhere on here, you quoted: “the form of worship that is clean and undefiled is to look after orphans and widows….” Are there any orphans and widows in your organization?  How could there be?  How can you look after them if there is no organization? I agree, we need to dig deep, as for hidden treasure and base our foundation on the rock of Jesus, the cornerstone. Let's dig into this scripture: HEBREWS 10:24-25 “And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.” As we behold the day drawing near, how much more important encouragement is from our brothers.  We get that by “gathering ourselves together.”  We are told to not forsake that. “Is it insecurity and self doubt that leads to men following men?” you ask. yes, following men, wrong.  When the early Christians (let's say, Paul, Peter, etc) preached to people and people responded, were those that accepted the message following men?   There needs to be an instrument by which people can be told the good news.  The rocks themselves would cry out if we were silent.  But I don't hear any rocks.  It's not necessary.  There are people everywhere talking to others about God's Kingdom.   What's that?  Is someone knocking on your door? How many people stumble upon this website?  How effective is it at reaching “the entire inhabited earth?”

Hi david,
The Spirit in James defined religion as God understands it. You have shown us man's definition.

I love gathering together with those who are in Christ. Most world religions do not bring men to Christ. I do not fellowship with the false church.
1 Cor 10.20f
” No I say that the things which the gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He are we?”

[david]

First to Liljon,
if Jehovah, Jesus and the holy spirit are equal, then don't you think that Jehovah should be referred to as most high 50 times, Jesus should be referred to as most high 50 times and the holy spirit should be referred to as most high 50 times? What we actually see is: 50-0-0. Not very equal in the sharing of the phrase “most high,” is it liljon? I mean, even if Jesus were referred to as most high a couple of times, or the holy spirit once, but no, nadda, nothing, no mention of the holy spirt as being the most high. I know you say that the holy spirit is Jehovah so actually the holy spirit was referred to as Most high. But….you're wrong:
PSALM 83:18
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
Well fine, you say when it says Jehovah it actually referres to all three.
But if that is the case, then why couldn't there be some scripture somewhere in the thousand's of pages of scriptures where “Jesus” or the “holy spirit” are specifically said to be the “most high.” I mean, there's got to be tens of thousands of verses in the Bible. Why couldn't someone have written that “Jesus alone is the most high,” or “the holy spirit is the most high.” It would have been so easy, yet, no one cared to write that. hmmm. I wonder why? Math, common logic, and the whole Bible are against you.
Did you notice how many times Jehovah is referred to as God in the Bible, Liljon?
How many times is the holy spirit referred to as God?
Seems unequal somehow, doesn't it?
Yes, you say, well, when it referrs to Jehovah, it actually means Jehovah, Jesus and the holy spirit, but then, why isn't the holy spirit called “God” a thousand times? Why rather, is it called “God” zero times? Were the writers of the Bible trying to keep the fact that the holy spirit is “God” a secret, by not ever mentioning it?

David.

[david]

To Nick, first, you said:
“The spirit in James defined religion as God understands it. You have shown us man's definition.”
I didn't know religion was defined in the Bible. Religion is a form or way of worship. Worship, or true worship IS described in the Bible. I didn't realize it was a trick question. I'm sorry for the slip. I'll stay sharper next time.

Secondly, as for the Eunuch's statement.
2 TIMOTHY 3:16
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight. . . .”
So, why is this account of the Eunach in the Bible? What purpose does it serve? Philip to the Eunach: Do you understand what you are reading?
His responce: HOW COULD I REALLY UNLESS SOMEONE GUIDED ME?
So, what's the point, the lesson learned?
It seems to me you expect people to learn about God without any outside help.
ROMANS 10:12-15
“For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him. For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: “How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!””

How, Nick, How?

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