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Hi RG,
You make a very good point about the ransom: I have been going over some of the Apostle Paul's writing and that is as you say:
Ephesians 3:1-12
and Galatians 3Do you mind scripturally expounding on the part about his being fully man and not Man/God in the Who is Jesus thread?
TY.
Paul spoke the truth:
1 Corinthians 15:47 – The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is YHWH from heaven.
More here:
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/doctrine.htm
Peshitta Primacy:
Quote (ransomguy @ July 15 2005,13:49) One of the Reasons the Trinity Doctrine formed was because the majority of christendom centered all attention in the salvation of man and shunned the biblical doctrine of the Ransom. Jesus himself said concerning one of the reasons he was sent to Earth, “Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28). Here, Jesus was talking to his disciples, who were Jewish and knew the Law of Moses. Why did Jesus use the word ransom when he could have said, “I came to save mankind”? The greek word for ransom is ly-tron, and the hebrew ko-fer means “to cover, a correspondent price, and exact price, an exact covering”. The Jews knew all to well what ransom meant. The Law of Moses, which was a shadow of greater things to come, contained that principle of exact price or covering price (a ransom). Please, read it in Exodus 21:23-25. Do you see it? Soul for Soul (or as other traductions have it, Life for a Life).
Jesus was to be a ransom. For who? Adam. Adam was a perfect human with the perspective of eternal life, if he remained obedient to God. But he sinned, and Adam, Eve, and their posterity were sentenced to death. Death entered the world for the sin of one man (Romans 5:12). A perfect life was lost, and had to be restored. But who could pay such a price? Not one of Adam's children could cover such a price.
Interesting are the words found in Psalm 49:7,8, “Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother, nor give God a ransom for him. And the redemption price of their soul is so precious that it has ceased to time indefinite.”
So, if a ransom, a corresponding and exact price was to be paid to satisfy God's justice (For Justice, one of the main attributes of God is ever present in all his acts) a perfect man had to die. No more, no less. Adam, a perfect man had brought death, and only a perfect man could lift such burden from the neck of us, sinners sentenced to death.
The belief of a God-Man, which is not found is scripture, gave foot to the belief of the Trinity. Jesus was sent by God, for he had lived in heavens before coming to Earth. But he was sent as a perfect man, not a 100%God-100%Man creature. He was a man, nothing more, nothing less. Perfect, for he never sinned (not in thought, acts, words). To be the “ransom for many” he had to be a perfect human being, as Adam was. NOT NEVER A GOD-MAN. That is why Paul said that Adam bore a resemblance of the one to come. A resemblance, for Adam never lived in Heaven, nor was resurrected as Jesus was.
The fact is that when the Athanasian Creed was written, it relied too much on pagan Greek philosophy. The use of Platonic terms and words to explain something that, if were the truth, could be explained just in base of sola scriptura (JUST THE BIBLE IN PLAIN ENGLISH) shows the pagan roots to this belief.
Jesus said that eternal life came from knowing the only true God and Jesus, whom he had sent (John 17:3). How can anyone attain eternal life is somethings as fundamental as God's Person is too complicated and ilogical for even theologians to explain, much less for the simple person? The terms GOD THE SON and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT do not appear in scripture. All came from weaving greek philosophy with man made doctrines.
Jesus, the Son of God, the Mighty God (El-Guibbor and not EL SHADDAI or Almighty God) was a spirit, sent to Earth as a perfect man, not a MAN-GOD being, to be a ransom for what Adam lost, a perfect human life, and was resurrected by GOD, JEHOVAH, HIS FATHER, given the name above all names for the Glory of GOD THE FATHER. (SEE, TWO DISTINCT PERSONS)
I hope this clears some doubts concerning what the BIBLE says about who Jesus was.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus specifically came as a ransom for Adam…. sola scriptura….if it is true, (JUST THE BIBLE IN PLAIN ENGLISH) , then why do you say “The greek word for ransom is ly-tron, and the hebrew ko-fer means “to cover, a correspondent price, and exact price, an exact covering”.”
I guess if you can rely on other languages to convey your thoughts, the writers of the Athanasian Creed can do the same….. if you can use extra biblical words or phrases to describe your beliefs, then they can do the same.seems you want to have the tools for exegesis that you deny to others…. typical antitrinitarianism really…
blessings
ransom, as far as using “Greek” terms to convey theological thought, your theory falls apart, becasue if you are correct, the John must also be “guilty” of imbibing Greek philosophical thought when he wrote of Christ as the “Logos”….
Quote (ransomguy @ July 15 2005,13:49) One of the Reasons the Trinity Doctrine formed was because the majority of christendom centered all attention in the salvation of man and shunned the biblical doctrine of the Ransom. Jesus himself said concerning one of the reasons he was sent to Earth, “Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28). Here, Jesus was talking to his disciples, who were Jewish and knew the Law of Moses. Why did Jesus use the word ransom when he could have said, “I came to save mankind”? The greek word for ransom is ly-tron, and the hebrew ko-fer means “to cover, a correspondent price, and exact price, an exact covering”. The Jews knew all to well what ransom meant. The Law of Moses, which was a shadow of greater things to come, contained that principle of exact price or covering price (a ransom). Please, read it in Exodus 21:23-25. Do you see it? Soul for Soul (or as other traductions have it, Life for a Life).
Jesus was to be a ransom. For who? Adam. Adam was a perfect human with the perspective of eternal life, if he remained obedient to God. But he sinned, and Adam, Eve, and their posterity were sentenced to death. Death entered the world for the sin of one man (Romans 5:12). A perfect life was lost, and had to be restored. But who could pay such a price? Not one of Adam's children could cover such a price.
Interesting are the words found in Psalm 49:7,8, “Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother, nor give God a ransom for him. And the redemption price of their soul is so precious that it has ceased to time indefinite.”
So, if a ransom, a corresponding and exact price was to be paid to satisfy God's justice (For Justice, one of the main attributes of God is ever present in all his acts) a perfect man had to die. No more, no less. Adam, a perfect man had brought death, and only a perfect man could lift such burden from the neck of us, sinners sentenced to death.
The belief of a God-Man, which is not found is scripture, gave foot to the belief of the Trinity. Jesus was sent by God, for he had lived in heavens before coming to Earth. But he was sent as a perfect man, not a 100%God-100%Man creature. He was a man, nothing more, nothing less. Perfect, for he never sinned (not in thought, acts, words). To be the “ransom for many” he had to be a perfect human being, as Adam was. NOT NEVER A GOD-MAN. That is why Paul said that Adam bore a resemblance of the one to come. A resemblance, for Adam never lived in Heaven, nor was resurrected as Jesus was.
The fact is that when the Athanasian Creed was written, it relied too much on pagan Greek philosophy. The use of Platonic terms and words to explain something that, if were the truth, could be explained just in base of sola scriptura (JUST THE BIBLE IN PLAIN ENGLISH) shows the pagan roots to this belief.
Jesus said that eternal life came from knowing the only true God and Jesus, whom he had sent (John 17:3). How can anyone attain eternal life is somethings as fundamental as God's Person is too complicated and ilogical for even theologians to explain, much less for the simple person? The terms GOD THE SON and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT do not appear in scripture. All came from weaving greek philosophy with man made doctrines.
Jesus, the Son of God, the Mighty God (El-Guibbor and not EL SHADDAI or Almighty God) was a spirit, sent to Earth as a perfect man, not a MAN-GOD being, to be a ransom for what Adam lost, a perfect human life, and was resurrected by GOD, JEHOVAH, HIS FATHER, given the name above all names for the Glory of GOD THE FATHER. (SEE, TWO DISTINCT PERSONS)
I hope this clears some doubts concerning what the BIBLE says about who Jesus was.
ransom, you said in particular, “But he was sent as a perfect man, not a 100%God-100%Man creature. He was a man, nothing more, nothing less.”Really!?!? Amazing that the Bible says these things about a mere man:
Hebrews 1:3-6 HCSB He is the radiance of His glory, the exact expression of His nature, and He sustains all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs. For to which of the angels did He ever say, You are My Son; today I have become Your Father, or again, I will be His Father, and He will be My Son ? When He again brings His firstborn into the world He says, And all God's angels must worship Him.” !!!!!
You mean to tell me that a mere man spoke all of creation into existence!!??!!
You mean to tell me that a mere man upholds or holds together all of creation!!??!!
That this man is not merely created in the image of God, but is actually the EXACT REPRESENTATION of God's BEING!!??!!
That He purified sinners from their sins!!??!!
That a mere man is given the place of honor to sit at God's right hand!!??!!
That all the angels will worship a mere man!!??!!
How about this “mere man” forgiving sins committed against God? Mk 9:6
That this mere man claimed to be able to raise Himself from the dead?
John 2:19-21 HCSB Jesus answered, “Destroy this sanctuary, and I will raise it up in three days.” Therefore the Jews said, “This sanctuary took 46 years to build, and will You raise it up in three days?”But He was speaking about the sanctuary of His body.”Of what mere man can the following be said?
Joh 1:1
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Joh 1:3 All things were created through Him,
and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created.”This “man” is the Creator of all that is!!! He was there with the Father at the beginning of all that is!! And that He is very God of very God!!! A mere man…. riiigghhhtttt….
You must even know better about Jesus then He knew of Himself, because He equated Himself with the Father in ways that no man can do….
John 8:23-24 HCSB “You are from below,” He (Jesus) told them, “I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. (24) Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins.”
Pretty amazing stuff from a mere man!!!! Imagine another man telling you that unless you believed in Him, you will die in your sins!
No….. ransom…. you are completley out in left field on this one….. outsdide of the realm of Christianity to be exact… the Jesus you believe in is not the Jesus of the Bible at all….
Hi E,
Where does it say Jesus was the Creator?Certainly the inner man of Christ was the Son of God but he was also in flesh, like to one of us in every way except sin.
Hi,
“God” means God
“Father” means Father
“Son” means Son
“With” means with.All these and many other scriptural words have to lose their simple meaning if you accept the trinity theory as true.
Instead the Son remains part of the Father so is not an only begotten Son who was with the Father [who was his God] in the beginning. This is false teaching.
“Come out of her MY people”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2005,02:18) Hi E,
Where does it say Jesus was the Creator?Certainly the inner man of Christ was the Son of God but he was also in flesh, like to one of us in every way except sin.
Where does it say He was the creator!?!? You have got to be kidding me…..Ok, if thats the case Nick, where does it say “the inner man of Christ was the Son of God”
At any rate, since you asked… the Bible is very clear that Jesus is the Creator,
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Joh 1:3 All things were created through Him,
and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created.John 1:10-13 NASB He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. (11) He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. (12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, (13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 Corinthians 8:6 NASB yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Colossians 1:15-17 NASB He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. (17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Now, in particular, the Hebrews passage says
Hebrews 1:2-3 NASB in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,”Do you really have any trouble seeing that it was the Son who actually brought creation into being, and who still, by the “word of His power” He… the Son… “upholds all things”, and that “in Him all things hold together”…? Truly these activities show the Son to be equal to God in power….
blessings
Hi E,
Yes it does say many times that everything was created THROUGH him but that does not make him THE Creator. God is the only Creator. It is to presume beyond what is revealed to say what is not written as if it was.Hi E,
Man is Body, soul and spirit.
Jesus is like unto us in all ways but sin.[2 Cor 5.16]
His body was not different to ours and that is the “outer man” from Genesis 2-dust.
But he was different as the Son of God recognised by some such as JohnTB and Peter.
That difference was not as body but “inner man” that lives in our tent of dust[2 cor 4.16-5. 1-5]
He was the glorious vessel, the Son of God, who carried the Spirit of Glory and power within.Quote (Guest @ July 16 2005,13:04) 1 Corinthians 15:47 – The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is YHWH from heaven.
The second man from Heaven is Yeshua, not YHWH.You made a good post 1 page bak regarding the Word/Logos/Miltha. You understand that the Logos is a manifestation or expression. Would image also fit your understanding? Surely you can see that the Word came from God and then became flesh later. It wasn't God who became flesh.
Hi,
If trinity theory is correct then the Word never was begotten from God but remains part of that God. If you call him “God the Son” it is only a descriptive name to differentiate persons and does not reflect a relationship of Father to Son that we would normally expect with such names.
So he is not the only begotten Son.
That denies the Master.
That is antichrist.Jesus warned us about such things.
There is a lot that has been said on this subject. I have not read everything on this side. I do know this. If someone who was said to be “misleading the entire inhabited earth” (rev 12:9) and who is the “god of this world” (2 cor 4:4) wanted to turn people away from the God of the Bible, how would he go about doing that? He would create confusion in peoples minds, and make God unknowable. We should not be suprised at what has happened. Apostasy was fortold. (2 thes 2:3) It was fortold by Jesus himself. (Mat 7:15) Jesus knew that Satan would try to divide and corrupt his followers. Paul, speaking to the overseers of Ephesus said: “I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you….and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:29,30) Just a few decades after the death of the apostles, men were drawng away the disciples after themselves. Divisions were forming. Peter too spoke of these “destructive sects” that would be coming, saying that they would “exploit you with counterfeit words.” (2 Pet 2:1-3) Less than 20 years after Jesus' death, efforts to cause division and turn men away from the true faith were “already at work.” (2 Thes 2:7) As early as 49 CE, in a letter sent out to the congregations, the governing body noted: “we have heard that some from among us have cuased you trouble with speeches, trying to subvert your souls, although we did not give them any instructions. (Acts 15:24) So some WITHIN the congregation were vocal about their opposing viewpoint. Read carefully Jude 3,4,10,11. Jude truly wanted to write about salvation, but he found it necessary to encourage the readers. Why? Certain men had slipped in. Men who were speaking of things they really did not know. The apostasy had already begun, it was “already at work.” By about 51 CE, some in Thessalonica were wrongly predicting that the presence of the Lord Jesus was imminent. (2 thess 2:1,2) By about 55 CE, some in Corith had rejected the clear Christina teaching regarding the resurrection of the dead. (1 Cor 15:12) About 65 CE, others said that the resurrection had already taken place. This is what caused Paul to say: “Shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. . . .” (2 tim 2:16-18) There are no inspired records as to what took place in the Christina congregation in the next 30 years, but by the time the apostle John wrote his letters, there were “many antichrists,” persons who denied that “Jesus is the Christ” and that Jesus is the Son of God who came “in the flesh.” (1 John 2:18,22; 4:2,3) “Many deceivers have gone forth into the world.” (1 John 2:18) At the command of Christ, the apostle John was told to write, warning against sects, mentioning especially the sect of nicolaus and speaking of false prophets like Balaam and of the woman jezebel who called herself a prophetess (rev 2:6,14,15,20) John the last living apostle, wrote that it was “the last houre,” evidently meaning the end of the apostolic period. He said: “it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, EVEN NOW there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. They went out form us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us.” (1 john 2:18,19) For over 60 years, the apostles had 'acted as a restraint,' endeavoring to hold back the tide of apostasy. (2 thes 2:7; compare 2 john 9,10) But by the end of the first century, false teachers were slipping into the congregation and the apostasy was now ready to burst forth unrestrained. Read Mat 13:24-29. What was the result of this fortold apostasy, falling away from true worship? Well, “there will be a period of time when they will not put up with healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth werheas they will be turned aside to false stories.” (2 tim 4:3,4) What was to stop Satan from making God disappear in peoples minds? If you can't make the door of Christianity disappear, why not create a thousand more doors, so no one can find the right one? The trinity was so perfect. Many people around the world already worshiped trinities. And if we remove God's name from the Bible, and replaced it with the titles “LORD” or “GOD” that would really confuse peoples minds as the the identiy of God, wouldn't it. If your name appeared in a book several thousand times, and someone removed that name, wouldn't that help to turn people away from God. I mean, if you don't even know God's name, or even that he has a name, chances are you aren't going to know a lot about him, are you? Anyway, I'm starting to ramble.
Thank you David,
Trinity is the result of human analysis of scripture without the Spirit and men deriving speculative ideas about God. That is on dangerous ground already as God reveals Himself to us and demands we fear Him. He is not scientifically confinable as science is only a weak measure of His power and abilities.
Trinity is a theory that has no proofs and has less validity than Darwin's and yet it's proponents seem to hold to it so firmly that all who challenge that view are labelled as heretics.I'm actually replying to something written a page ago about Creation. Solomon had a temple built. He built the temple. Solomon didn't physically do the work. He used people to do it. He didn't literally build or create the temple himself. Yet it's correct to say that he built the temple. Similarly, the Father, the Creator, YHWH or Jehovah, used his Son, Jesus to create everything. It was through him that everything came into being. There is no contradition in this. It's not hard to understand. It is based firmly in scripture.
Quite so,
Many fall into the trap of believing that everything God rightly claims to have done required Him to actually, by Himself alone, do all the work. That is ridiculous. Why be God and have to work?Your welcome. I have a QUESTION. What would happen to the trinity doctrine if all the Bibles in the world restored God's name to where it originally was. Few people use God's name and fewer are unaware he even has a name. They think “God” is his name. If Jehovah (Yahweh in Hebrew) was put back into the Bible in the thousands of places it was removed from then I feel that God would not be confused in peoples minds with Jesus (Yahshua in Hebrew). Am I wrong in thinking this? I mean, could anyone read the Bible with God's name in it and come up with the trinity on their own? When you use a Bible that has removed God's name roughly 7000 times, you're going to get a distorted view of who God is, aren't you? I don't know. To me it seems pretty clear that if the author of the Bible, the one who inspired the Bible, inspired his name to be in it 7000 times and someone removed that name. Well. May God have mercy on his soul.
When you replace Hallelujah (Praise Jah), Jah being a shortened form of the divine name, when you replace it with “Praise the Lord,” that's deceptive. Who is the Lord? Is it Jesus? Is it God? To most people, it doesn't matter. They're told not to care. And it's because of this attitude that we have people that believe in the trinity. They cling to their 10 or 20 scriptures that can be twisted into trinity doctine if your imaginations are strong enough and ignore the 1000 or so other scriptures, most of which are very very clear.
Anyway, back to my question. Where would the trinity doctrine be if God's name weren't removed?
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