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Quote (Guest @ July 05 2005,03:14) Nick Hassan,
So you are saying Jesus became the Son when He was begotten in the beginning, yes? OK please supply me with the scripture that elucidates this.
Nick,Why don't you show scripture? You ask everyone else to, yet you answer a question with a question.
Quote Nick replied:
Hi L,
He is the only begotten Son. What does this mean to you?Quote (epistemaniac @ July 05 2005,06:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2005,05:42) Hi,
2Cor 1.21
” Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge”So God is not Christ and Christ is not God.
fallacy alert!!!!! lol… you are creating a false dichotomy in your strained exegesis of the verse…“Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge”
this does not say that it is impossible that Christ be God simply because of the different activities being addressed here… God the Father, Yahweh, establishes and anoints His people in His Son, Christ Jesus, and Yahweh also gave us “the” Spirit in our hearts as a “pledge” or down payment… a seal that sets aside His people as His own, eternally so……. but there is absolutely nothing here that says that because of Yahweh's activities, it must logically follow that the Son cannot be God. Its not an either “God is not Christ and Christ is not God.” Its rather, the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, this is the ONLY distinction being made.
btw… I should add, for clarification the above passage is not just 2 Cor. 1:21 but is rather 2 Cor. 1:21-22…
Hi Epistemaniac:Good to see you back.
To the extent that you can demonstrate that Christ DOES NOT receive from the Father, in that he [Jesus] is the source of the Life that is in him and all that he does, then you can establish that he is the same as the Most High God. You cannot do this scripturally, however, whereas the scriptures show that Christ comes from God and receives from God in all his past present and future manifestations. And for this reason as well as his own testimony, he is neither the Most High God or the same being as he.
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 05 2005,05:46) Thayers supports your view laureaus… from “begotten” in Jn 3:16,
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
Thayer Definition:
1) single of its kind, only
Who is Thayer? Has he any private revelation other than what is revealed in the Word?Why do you ask FYI?
Do you see this as some kind of intellectual jousting match?
I do not. It is a mutual search for truth and early and rash conclusions before proper analysis do not give proper respect to the treasure we handle does it?IS 1:18 wrote:
Excellent post. Its good to see someone really put some time and effort into a post like you have. I thought it was just so well written and to the point. Just one question, when you write Jesus was “brought forth” are you referring to a begettal before time or the incarnation? Just curious.My reply:
Good question! The scriptures say that the Word of God became flesh. That He was the “True Light” that lights every man. That He was the “Eternal Life” with the Father. That all things that exist were created through Him.Genesis 2:7 – And the LORD (YHWH) God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Isaiah 40: 28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD (YHWH) is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary, his understanding is unsearchable.
According to Micah 5:2 the future Saviours existance is “from everlasting” – a statement of eternity, from the infinite past!
We know that all things were created by God, his Word, and his Spirit – God alone inhabits eternity!
John 17:5 – And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 1:10 – He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
That He was in the “form (Gr=morphe) of God” and “equal” to God and with God.
Phil. 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form (Gr=morphe – the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual, and retained as long as the individual itself exists) of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form (Gr=homoioma – that which is made like something, a resemblance) he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus (YHWH is salvation) every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil. 2:5-11: Paul writes,” though (Jesus) was in the form of God, (He) did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.” The word here used for form is a Greek word that means “the set of characteristics which constitutes a thing what it is.” It denotes the exact nature of that thing. Incidentally, there is another word for form in the Greek which means the shape or appearance rather than the exact substance. Paul did not use that word. Let us remember that Paul was an orthodox Jew trained in the rabbinical teachings. He was a scholar and the Jew of Jews in zeal, holding to the one God teaching. Paul knew exactly what He was stating when He chose the word “form”. It suggests that the early Christians believed in the deity of Christ.
http://www.ldolphin.org/kellyc.html
Here John is explaining what Christ had claimed to the Jews that got Him in such trouble, calling Himself the Son of God was a direct assertion of equality and all the disciples and Jews knew that:
John 5:18 – This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.
Christ wasn't called the “Son of God” until his birth:
Luke 1:35 – And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
That He took on flesh having “emptied” himself. Took on the form (Gr=homoioma – that which is made like something, a resemblance) of a servant and became obedient to death to purge us of our sins.
All scriptures in the OT that speak of the Son are prophetic except” Prov “maybeerbs 30:4 – However, this can also be argued to be prophetic as well. And, Isreal is also called as a nation God's son.
Proverbs 30: 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
God exists outside the fabric and framework of time seeing the end of a thing at the same time as it's beginning.
Romans 4:17 – (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Christ said that He “came forth” from the Father:
John 16:28 – I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
The term “Son of God” has two meanings – (1) having the nature and characteristics of, and (2) being a literal Son through birth. Both are applied to Christ.Peter said and Christ confirmed:
Matthew 16:16 – And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Even the demons knew:
Mark 5:7 – And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Post incarnation John calls Him:
2 John 1:3 – Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
The writer of Hebrews says:
Hebrews 1:2 – Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The incarnation is the perfect union of God and man, so that in Christ we would have the perfect mediator.
Hi FYI,
Who does Jesus mediate between?
Who was he supposedly equal to?
How can one be equal with oneself?
Who exalted him?
Who is he heir to?Jesus called his Father “the only true God” in Jn 17.3
What do you make of this statement made by the Messiah, the Son of God?
Yeshua is YHWH:
This word is “Mar-Yah”. MarYah literally means Mar (Lord) Yah (name of God in the singular). YHWH, arguably Yahweh, is one of the names of Alaha (Elohim)
Luke 1:76. And you child will be called the prophet of the Most High for you will go before the face of Mar-Yah to prepare his way.
Luke 2:10. And the angel said to them, ?Do not have fear, for behold I announce hope to you! A great joy which will be to the whole world. For today is born to you in the city of David the Savior who is Mar-Yah, the Messiah.
Luke 2:21. And when eight days had passed so that the boy could be circumcised, they called his name Yeshua, as the angel had called him before he was conceived in the womb. 22. And when the days of their purification were fulfilled according to the law of Moshe, they took him up to Urishlim to present him before Mar-Yah, 23. According to what is written in the law of Mar-Yah that every male who opens the womb will be called a holy one of the Lord-Yah.
Luke 3:4. As it is written in the book of the words of Eshaya the prophet who said, ?A voice that cries in the wilderness, ?Prepare the way of Mar-Yah, and make straight the path in the plains for our God.
1 Corinthians 12:3 – Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Mar-Yah” except by the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 22:43 He said to them, How is it then that David through the spirit calls him Mar-Yah? For he said,
Matthew 22:45 If David then calls him Mar-Yah, how can he be his son?
Mark 12:29 Jesus said to him, The first of all commandments is, Hear, O Israel, Mar-Yah our God is one Mar-Yah;
Acts 10:36 For God sent the word to the children of Israel, preaching peace and tranquility by Jesus Christ; he is Mar-Yah of all.
Romans 14:9 For to this end even Christ both died and came back to life, and rose to be Mar-Yah both of the dead and living.
1Corinthians 8:6 To us there is one God, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by whom we live; and one Mar-Yah Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Quote (Guest @ July 06 2005,00:05) IS 1:18 wrote:
Excellent post. Its good to see someone really put some time and effort into a post like you have. I thought it was just so well written and to the point. Just one question, when you write Jesus was “brought forth” are you referring to a begettal before time or the incarnation? Just curious.My reply:
Good question! The scriptures say that the Word of God became flesh. That He was the “True Light” that lights every man. That He was the “Eternal Life” with the Father. That all things that exist were created through Him.Genesis 2:7 – And the LORD (YHWH) God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Isaiah 40: 28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD (YHWH) is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary, his understanding is unsearchable.
According to Micah 5:2 the future Saviours existance is “from everlasting” – a statement of eternity, from the infinite past!
We know that all things were created by God, his Word, and his Spirit – God alone inhabits eternity!
John 17:5 – And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 1:10 – He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
That He was in the “form (Gr=morphe) of God” and “equal” to God and with God.
Phil. 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form (Gr=morphe – the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual, and retained as long as the individual itself exists) of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form (Gr=homoioma – that which is made like something, a resemblance) he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus (YHWH is salvation) every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil. 2:5-11: Paul writes,” though (Jesus) was in the form of God, (He) did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.” The word here used for form is a Greek word that means “the set of characteristics which constitutes a thing what it is.” It denotes the exact nature of that thing. Incidentally, there is another word for form in the Greek which means the shape or appearance rather than the exact substance. Paul did not use that word. Let us remember that Paul was an orthodox Jew trained in the rabbinical teachings. He was a scholar and the Jew of Jews in zeal, holding to the one God teaching. Paul knew exactly what He was stating when He chose the word “form”. It suggests that the early Christians believed in the deity of Christ.
http://www.ldolphin.org/kellyc.html
Here John is explaining what Christ had claimed to the Jews that got Him in such trouble, calling Himself the Son of God was a direct assertion of equality and all the disciples and Jews knew that:
John 5:18 – This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.
Christ wasn't called the “Son of God” until his birth:
Luke 1:35 – And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
That He took on flesh having “emptied” himself. Took on the form (Gr=homoioma – that which is made like something, a resemblance) of a servant and became obedient to death to purge us of our sins.
All scriptures in the OT that speak of the Son are prophetic except” Prov “maybeerbs 30:4 – However, this can also be argued to be prophetic as well. And, Isreal is also called as a nation God's son.
Proverbs 30: 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
God exists outside the fabric and framework of time seeing the end of a thing at the same time as it's beginning.
Romans 4:17 – (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Christ said that He “came forth” from the Father:
John 16:28 – I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
The term “Son of God” has two meanings – (1) having the nature and characteristics of, and (2) being a literal Son through birth. Both are applied to Christ.Peter said and Christ confirmed:
Matthew 16:16 – And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Even the demons knew:
Mark 5:7 – And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Post incarnation John calls Him:
2 John 1:3 – Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
The writer of Hebrews says:
Hebrews 1:2 – Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The incarnation is the perfect union of God and man, so that in Christ we would have the perfect mediator.
HiFYI,
You say
“The incarnation is the perfect union of God and man, so that in Jesus Christ we would have the perfect mediator”The incarnation of the Son of God partaking of flesh is not the complete answer in man's salvation. It was only the first part of that process. He then had to be a vessel for the Power of God for God to accomplish salvation through him.
You do not understand mediation. You confuse the role with advocacy.
A Mediator is independant of BOTH sides and comes between them to resolve negotiations.The Son of Man can negotiate with all men as he is “of man”. The Son of God can negotiate with God as he is “of God”. His role here is to restore the relationship between God and men. But he cannot act as a representative for either party as he is a mediator.
So He cannot be the God he negotiates with or there would be no fair justice in the mediation process then would there?
Once his mediation is complete for us he does become for us an advocate as well.[1Jn 2.1].
Then when his advocacy role ends he has been appointed as Judge.[Jn.5.22f, Matt 25.31f]
Hi FYI,
You quote 2 Jn 3
” Grace , mercy and peace will be with us from God the Father
AND
from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love”Two beings here.
The Father
and
The SonWhatever comes from the Father comes also from the Son because all comes THROUGH the Son.
Hebrews 9
The Old and the New
1Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
2For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
3Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,
4having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
6Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
7but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
10since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
19For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.”
21And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
22And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage….sion=49Hi H,
So The High Priest Jesus Christ appeared in the PRESENCE OF GOD for us.
He went into the spiritual Holy of Holies where the presence of God lives-heaven.
He went through the veil of his flesh which was torn for us.
The veil that separated God from man is torn permanently so we who are in him can approach the throne of grace with confidence.
We, like he, can now commune with his Father, God in him.
The Blood of Christ was offered TO GOD as a sacrifice for our sin.He is the true mediator between God and men.
Hi FYI,
1Tim 2.5
“For there is one God
AND
one mediator ALSO between God
AND
Men
,the man Jesus Christ”
One God. A mediator who is of man and of God. No conflict of interest.
God is not of man!.That is nonsense.
Aramaic, the language of Christ:
http://www.aramnaharaim.org/AramaicJesus.htm
No one doubts the extent to which Aramaic had spread throughout the Levant from the middle of the first millennium BC, until Arabic supplanted it, in the seventh century. A more difficult question, which has led to a significant disagreement among scholars, has to do with differences among, and classification of the various dialects of Aramaic.
The most extreme theory is that during the Exile, the Jews lost their Hebrew language for Aramaic. Reserving Hebrew, already a dead language, for literature. This was Saadiah’s view, and also, in different forms, by a number of nineteenth- and-twentieth century scholars, including A. Geiger, A. Meyer, G.H. Dalman, A. Dupont-Sommer, and F. Altheim and R. Stiehl.
Meyer[27] argued that Jesus’ mother tongue was Aramaic, and that most of the Testament writings were originally written in Aramaic and later translated into Greek. Dalman agrees with the fact that Aramaic was the spoken language of the Jews in New Testament time. He concluded that Jesus grew up in Aramaic environment, and that He had to use Aramaic in order to be understood by his disciples and the people[28].
More recently too, Dupont-Sommer argued that, Aramaic was the only language current among ordinary people at the time of Jesus, and that it was the language spoken by Jesus and the Apostles[29]. Similarly, Altheim and Stiehl[30]argued that from the beginning of the Hellenistic era, Aramaic had completely supplanted Hebrew as a spoken language.
A more sophisticated approach distinguishes Middle Aramaic (from 300 BC), and Late Aramaic dialects. In the first group, E.Y. Kutscher placed Targum Onkelos[31] and the Aramaic translations from the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as insciptions from around Jerusalem, and Aramaic expressions in the New Testament[32]. The later dialects, which belong to Western Aramaic, are classified as Galilaean, Samaritan, and Christian-Palestinian Aramaic. Of these, the Galilaean dialect is of particular interest, because, it was used, for example, in the Aramaic sections of the Palestinian Talmud[33], the Palestinian Targums[34], numerous midrashim[35], and various Synagogue inscriptions.
The evidence of the Aramaic language of Jesus is impossible to explain if Aramaic was not His spoken language. The Scriptures were provided with Targum for the Aramaic-speaking masses who could no longer understand Hebrew. In the Synagogue, following the Babylonian Exile, Palestinian Jews had their public reading of the Hebrew Scripture rendered in vernacular Aramaic. That tradition was necessary due to the growing number of Jews who were more familiar with Aramaic than with Hebrew (Neh.8:8). This oral interpretation began as a simple paraphrase, but later, it became more elaborate and the various explanations tended to become fixed and traditional, and finally, these Aramaic interpretations of the Scriptures were reduced to writing, known as Targums (or Targumim).
Hi,
The Old testament is littered with the promises of the Lord God visiting his people. He did. But His name was not Jesus Christ. He dwelled as Spirit in his servant Son Jesus Christ.
Is 11.1
” Then a shoot will spring forth from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will bear fruit AND THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD WILL REST ON HIM”As Jesus said quoting Is 61.1
” The Spirit of the LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE THE LORD HAS ANOINTED ME..”God is the Lord in the OT.
We who are born into Jesus make him our Lord too as we under his jurisdiction. He is OUR Lord under the Lord God alone. Paul in 1Cor 8 spoke to those IN Christ saying:
“Yet FOR US there is one God, the Father,….. and one Lord Jesus Christ..”
Quote (Cubes @ July 05 2005,17:50) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 05 2005,05:46) Thayers supports your view laureaus… from “begotten” in Jn 3:16,
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
Thayer Definition:
1) single of its kind, only
Who is Thayer? Has he any private revelation other than what is revealed in the Word?
ROFLOL!!! these kinds of responses are always soooo funny…. ok then…who is Cubes….? Has he any private revelation other than what is written in the Word?
here is another question for you Cubes… how many Greek lexicons have you written?
Quote (Cubes @ July 05 2005,17:49) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 05 2005,06:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2005,05:42) Hi,
2Cor 1.21
” Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge”So God is not Christ and Christ is not God.
fallacy alert!!!!! lol… you are creating a false dichotomy in your strained exegesis of the verse…“Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge”
this does not say that it is impossible that Christ be God simply because of the different activities being addressed here… God the Father, Yahweh, establishes and anoints His people in His Son, Christ Jesus, and Yahweh also gave us “the” Spirit in our hearts as a “pledge” or down payment… a seal that sets aside His people as His own, eternally so……. but there is absolutely nothing here that says that because of Yahweh's activities, it must logically follow that the Son cannot be God. Its not an either “God is not Christ and Christ is not God.” Its rather, the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, this is the ONLY distinction being made.
btw… I should add, for clarification the above passage is not just 2 Cor. 1:21 but is rather 2 Cor. 1:21-22…
Hi Epistemaniac:Good to see you back.
To the extent that you can demonstrate that Christ DOES NOT receive from the Father, in that he [Jesus] is the source of the Life that is in him and all that he does, then you can establish that he is the same as the Most High God. You cannot do this scripturally, however, whereas the scriptures show that Christ comes from God and receives from God in all his past present and future manifestations. And for this reason as well as his own testimony, he is neither the Most High God or the same being as he.
I would not try to demonstrate that Christ DOES NOT receive from the Father, because He clearly does. He receives from the Father, so what? Is He the same as the most high God? Well He shares the same essence as the Father, if that’s what you mean. Jesus is called the mighty God however, and since there is only one God, only one true God, and it is inconceivable that Jesus should be a false God, then He must be God in the same sense as the Father is. (Isa 9:6 NNAS) “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”
So Cubes, is Jesus a false God or a true God?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2005,06:07) Hi E,
Christ has divine nature as the Son of God.But in this verse he cannot be the God that establishes us in Christ surely? How can he both do the establishing and be 'the being' being established in at the same time?
quite simple really… the Son is not the Father….Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2005,06:57) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 05 2005,06:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2005,05:42) Hi,
2Cor 1.21
” Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge”So God is not Christ and Christ is not God.
fallacy alert!!!!! lol… you are creating a false dichotomy in your strained exegesis of the verse…“Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge”
this does not say that it is impossible that Christ be God simply because of the different activities being addressed here… God the Father, Yahweh, establishes and anoints His people in His Son, Christ Jesus, and Yahweh also gave us “the” Spirit in our hearts as a “pledge” or down payment… a seal that sets aside His people as His own, eternally so……. but there is absolutely nothing here that says that because of Yahweh's activities, it must logically follow that the Son cannot be God. Its not an either “God is not Christ and Christ is not God.” Its rather, the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, this is the ONLY distinction being made.
btw… I should add, for clarification the above passage is not just 2 Cor. 1:21 but is rather 2 Cor. 1:21-22…
Hi E,
What I cannot understand is why, having delineated
Yahweh from the Son and the Spirit in a scriptural way, why anyone would artificially combine them in an unscriptural trinity compound God?The beauty is in the simplicity and the combination theory has been unnecessarily added destroying this beauty.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder Nick, however, aeshtetic views have nothing to do with truth… sometimes people think the truth is downright ugly, do they not?Also, it does not seem to me that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are being combined in an unscriptural way… if this was the case, since I want more than anything to be faithful to the Scriputres, I personally would not believe the Trinity.
blessings
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