The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 03 2005,17:21)

Quote (Cubes @ July 03 2005,03:48) Quote (Guest @ July 03 2005,02:13) There is only ONE name above all names – that is YHWH Paul says that God gave that name to Jesus Christ, and that every knee will bow to Jesus Christ and confess His name is YHWH. FYI, perhaps you could choose any book in the bible that we could study online, which would help us to get into the heart of the matter.  It should be worthwhile.  I recommend a shorter book but it need not be.  We would study it from Chapter 1 verse 1 and follow the thought of the writer.  We would then use scripture to interpret scripture, and apply any scripture from elsewhere in the scriptures, to substantiate what we are reading as to leave scripture unbroken and conveying the gospel of God. It'd be perhaps easier to follow the argument you present. If this is agreeable to you, then please start a thread by the title of the book of your choice and I'll meet you there as often as I can. I think that you are mixing YHWH with the title lord, which is widely applied. Anyway, have a good rest of the weekend. Look at the way YHWH is translated into kurios: Matthew 3 1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. KJV John was quoting Isaiah. Isaiah 40 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. KJV Mattitiyahu 3 3 And this is he, of whom Yesha'yahu spoke saying, “A voice crying, 'in the wilderness Prepare you the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert, a path for our Elohim'” HRV

Hi FYI,
Jesus certainly brought God to men. But he was not that God. That God was in him doing his works. You are deceived on this matter.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 03 2005,14:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2005,20:41) Hi cf, If you are as a branch in the vine then whom do you worship? Jn4 tells us about true worship and true worshippers. They worship the Father. Nick, Your errors seem to have no end. Jesus is much more than just the “vine” – He is also owner/heir of the “vineyard' with the Father: Matthew 21:  33 “Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; 35 and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. 37 Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.' 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.” 42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures: 'The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.” Oh, and BTW, it is Jesus the Word of God that comes wielding vengance: Revelation 19:  11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself. 13 He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. 15 From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he (Jesus) will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Hi FYI,
Jesus is the Word OF God. But he is not God Himself. That is his Father as he told us and I prefer his words.

[NickHassan]

Hi FYI,
The Word of God was WITH God in the beginning.

He cannot also BE the God he was WITH.
That is ridiculous.

The Son of God is the Son of God.

He is not also the Father of the Son of God.
That is ridiculous.

The Son revealed the Father to men. The fullness of the Deity of the Father dwelt in him so those who saw him saw the Father. He was not also the contents of himself.
That is ridiculous.

[NickHassan]

Hi FYI,
The Son is the Heir. How can the Son also be the Father to whom he the HEIR? That is ridiculous.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 03 2005,17:48)

Quote (Cubes @ July 03 2005,03:48) Quote (Guest @ July 03 2005,02:13) There is only ONE name above all names – that is YHWH Paul says that God gave that name to Jesus Christ, and that every knee will bow to Jesus Christ and confess His name is YHWH. FYI, perhaps you could choose any book in the bible that we could study online, which would help us to get into the heart of the matter.  It should be worthwhile.  I recommend a shorter book but it need not be.  We would study it from Chapter 1 verse 1 and follow the thought of the writer.  We would then use scripture to interpret scripture, and apply any scripture from elsewhere in the scriptures, to substantiate what we are reading as to leave scripture unbroken and conveying the gospel of God. It'd be perhaps easier to follow the argument you present. If this is agreeable to you, then please start a thread by the title of the book of your choice and I'll meet you there as often as I can. I think that you are mixing YHWH with the title lord, which is widely applied. Anyway, have a good rest of the weekend. Cubes, Gen 5: 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. When man and woman are married she takes his name as a memorial to the “FACT” that the first woman is of the “exact flesh and blood” of the man from which she was formed in Gen 1:27-28. So also when children are born, do they take a “different” last name than their parents? NO! If their parents are Smith – the child is Smith. If their parents are Hassan – the child is Hassan. Does this mean they are the “same” individual? NO! It means they are the same “blood”! Acts 20:28 – Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Christ is the “exact substance” of the Father: John 14:23 – Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:7 – If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:9 – Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? We are in the family as children of God by being “espoused” to Christ: 2 Corinthians 11:2 – For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. John 14:20 – At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. God was not “simply” just in Christ – they are one as stated above: John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Hi FYI,
In what way is a woman the “exact flesh” of man?

Different form? Different genes?

Female not male.

Adam means man. Man does not mean Adam.

Is Yahweh the family name of God?

Nonsense.

Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2005,20:02)

Hi FYI, The Son is the Heir. How can the Son also be the Father to whom he the HEIR? That is ridiculous.

Nick,

You have an obvious problem reading and understanding, I will try and help again, but it will require more effort on your part.

Matthew 21:  33 “Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; 35 and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. 37 Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.' 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes (The Lord Jesus), what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.” 42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures: 'The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.”

The owner of the vineyard is the heir that has taken his inheritance – Christ Jesus the Lord

That is precisely why it is Christ that comes wielding vengance:

Revelation 19:  11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself. 13 He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. 15 From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he (Jesus) will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.

[NickHassan]

Wrong again FYI,

The Father
OF
The Son

is the father who sent the son. He lives in the Son by His Spirit so when the Son returns the Father will as well.

You get so muddled.

God is the Owner of the vineyard. Jesus is the Son of God.
When you understand the relationship between God and His Son you will be in a much better position to teach on these matters.

Back to the drawing boards.

[Anonymous]

Sorry Nick, you are incorrect,

John 16:15 – All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Christ is NOT a hireling – He is the owner of the Sheep:

John 10: 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

…27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[Anonymous]

Oh, and Nick, try not to forget who has all the power and authority:

Matthew 28:18 – And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1 Corinthians 15: 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Revelation 1:8 – I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 04 2005,02:27)

Sorry Nick, you are incorrect, John 16:15 – All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Christ is NOT a hireling – He is the owner of the Sheep: John 10: 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. …27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Hi FYI,
So you agree power,authority and the sheep were GIVEN to the Son by the Father. So one Being gave these things to the other being.The greater gave these things to the lesser. Both are separate individual beings.

Great.

There are now two then working as one.

That is progress.

[Anonymous]

Nick, LOL:

That was an obscure way of saying you agree with me without making a concession, but I receive it all the same.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
While on earth Jesus frequently spoke of his Father. If they were always of one substance and essence why would he do this? The Father also spoke several times identifying Jesus as His Son. Perhaps we should belive they really were Father and Son rather than different manifestations of the same being?

The Son was filled with the Spirit at his baptism. How strange. If he was always of one substance and essence with the Spirit what sense does it make to be”filled” with your own substance and essence?

I think we should believe what God and His Son and the apostles said.

[NickHassan]

Do you agree with me then?
Two beings?

[Anonymous]

Quote

Nick said: Do you agree with me then? Two beings?

Nick,

First define “being”.

Then tell me how that definition can apply to an infinite God.

[NickHassan]

Hi,

God is eternal.

The living God has life in Himself and is the source of all life including the life of his firstborn Son.

The only begotten Son was begotten from the Father in eternity so is not co-eternal.

The Son has been given to have life in himself as well.

The Father is greater than the Son.

The Son was filled with the Spirit of God and though retaining individuality they are now eternally as one in will and purpose and work.

[Anonymous]

Quote

Nick said: “God is the Owner of the vineyard. Jesus is the Son of God.”

So Nick,

You have tried to change the subject, yet in you losing the argument, we find the truth that it is Christ who is the owner of the vineyard.

So Christ is not as you proclaim as just a mere “vine” in the vineyard, He is Adonai of the vineyard and owner as well.

You improperly try to portray Christ as the “planting of the Father” while denying He owns the sheep and the vineyard.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2005,03:31)

Hi, God is eternal. The living God has life in Himself and is the source of all life including the life of his firstborn Son. The only begotten Son was begotten from the Father in eternity so is not co-eternal. The Son has been given to have life in himself as well. The Father is greater than the Son. The Son was filled with the Spirit of God and though retaining individuality they are now eternally as one in will and purpose and work.

Nick,

You once again are mistaken.

The Son IS eternal:

Micah 5:2 – But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Do I really need to post the definition of eternal again?

Christ's existance is from the infinte past.

So I whole-heartedly disagree with you Christology – it doesn't hold up to scripture.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 04 2005,03:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2005,03:31) Hi, God is eternal. The living God has life in Himself and is the source of all life including the life of his firstborn Son. The only begotten Son was begotten from the Father in eternity so is not co-eternal. The Son has been given to have life in himself as well. The Father is greater than the Son. The Son was filled with the Spirit of God and though retaining individuality they are now eternally as one in will and purpose and work. Nick, You once again are mistaken. The Son IS eternal: Micah 5:2 – But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Do I really need to post the definition of eternal again? Christ's existance is from the infinte past. So I whole-heartedly disagree with you Christology – it doesn't hold up to scripture.

Hi FYI,
Using bold print certainly adds clarity to your message in one way. It is louder but still confusion.

The Son is “from everlasting”. If you are from something it does not say you did not have a beginning but that you began before time. So that does not say he is retrospectively eternal. He is the “only begotten son”.

Or are you now saying he is not the only begotten Son after all?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ July 04 2005,03:43)

Quote Nick said: “God is the Owner of the vineyard. Jesus is the Son of God.” So Nick, You have tried to change the subject, yet in you losing the argument, we find the truth that it is Christ who is the owner of the vineyard. So Christ is not as you proclaim as just a mere “vine” in the vineyard, He is Adonai of the vineyard and owner as well. You improperly try to portray Christ as the “planting of the Father” while denying He owns the sheep and the vineyard.

Hi FYI,
So looking at Matt 21.343f
Who is the landowner?
Who are the slaves of the landowner?
Who is the son of the landowner?

Is the landowner who sent his son also the son who was sent by the landowner then in your view?

Smells fishy to me.

[NickHassan]

Hi FYI,
Jesus said in Jn 15
“I am the vine and my Father is the vinedresser”
and
“I am the vine and you are the branches”

I guess you would want to disagree with him and tell him he was not only the vine but also the vinedresser.

The vinedresser is greater than the vine that serves him and they are vastly different in nature and abilities? In fact the branch is more similar to the vine than the vine is to the vinedresser.

Both the vinedresser and the vine have life in themselves while branches do not unless connected to the vine.

[Author]

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