The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Which is more contradicting:

To say that humanity prays to one Divine God.

To say that an eternal, Divine being needs to pray to another eternal Divine being?

schmokinnn…..:)

August 3, 2003 at 4:05 am#15357

Participant

I am a liar, yet, I never lie

My car is yellow, yet, my car is green

1+1+1=3, yet, 1+1+1=1

There are three sperate eternal persons, yet, there is one eternal Spirit

I think that contradictions do not need to be pointed out; Contradictions are simply revealed to our common sense!

August 3, 2003 at 11:54 am#15391

global

Participant

GJG, whoops, I read your name wrong, sorry

Maybe I dont understand exactly the point you are trying to make, if not please can you clarify exactly what I have misunderstood (as opposed to just disagree with).

I think it is self explanatory the terms Father and Son necessarily signify that they are persons. If not can you explain how it is possible to be a Father or a Son without being a person?

By person we obviously dont mean human, but a unique being or individual

The terms Father and Son by their very nature are also mutually exclusive i.e one cannot be the other i.e they are different persons.

I think you are the first person in history that denies God is a person!

You said –

"Word is Logos, Word is not God"

I repeat for the third time my question, how does this not contradict the Bible –

"The Word was God"
"The Word became Flesh"

You said –

"when Jesus prayed, it was His limited, mortal, humanity, communicating with the omnipresent, immortal, Spirit of God His Father. Flesh is not praying to flesh. "

This is close to what Trinitarians believe, but why do you say he prayed to the spirit of his Father? The Bible just says he prayed to his Father.

You said –

"There are three sperate eternal persons"

but before you said –

"There are not two different persons in the Godhead"

So now I have to admit I dont understand what you are talking about.

Be Well.

Websters Dictionary –

Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: ‘p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor’s mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask — more at PROSOPOPOEIA
Date: 13th century
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL — sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection
– per·son·hood /-"hud/ noun
– in person : in one’s bodily presence

August 3, 2003 at 9:00 pm#15564

global

Participant

<a name="part4">Biblical Arguments Part IV</a>

The summary says –

John 3:16 (English-NIV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The word begotten (monogenes) means only child, single of its kind.

Arians are disconcerted to find that in the whole Bible there is not one verse which specifically states their notion that the Son is a created being.

Therefore they desperately quote verses such as the above to prove that he was. Unfortunately, even the Summary admits above that the word “begotten” does not mean created.

Another favourite of Arians is –

Colossians 1:12-16 (English-NIV)
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Arians like to make much play of the word “firstborn”, unfortunately again, firstborn does not mean created, it doesn’t even necessarily mean born first. The Bible frequently uses the word firstborn to signify “priority in importance” or “rank”.

For example Ps 89.27 speaking of King David, the YOUNGEST or LAST BORN of Jesse says God will make him his firstborn –

Psalms 89:27
"I also shall make him My firstborn,
The highest of the kings of the earth.”

God calls Israel his firstborn –

Exodus 4:22
"Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.”

All Christians are called God’s firstborn –

Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

We can see that the Bible is talking about the rank and pre-eminence of Jesus in Colossians –

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Arians also like to ignore that this very passage also says “all things were created by him”. Arians would exclude Jesus himself from this, implying “all things were created by him, except himself who God created first” but this is reading into the text something it doesn’t say.

The summary says –

1 Timothy 2:5 (English-NIV)
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
This scripture like all the scriptures quoted so far does not make sense when compared with the trinity doctrine.
Here it says that Jesus is between God and Man. It also says that Jesus Christ is a man. Of course he is much more than that. I am just pointing out that in addition to being the only Begotten Son of God, the Christ, Messiah and Lord, Jesus is also a Man.

Why doesn’t it make sense compared with the Trinity?

It says he is a mediator between God and man – yes so does the doctrine of the Trinity

And just as being a mediator between God and man does not exclude Jesus from being man, neither does it exclude him from being God. In fact the perfect mediator between the two is one who is both man and God.

The summary then says –

“Just in case the scriptures I have quoted are not convincing enough for you then I have another 17 scriptures that prove this to be so“

Unfortunately the summary doesn’t say exactly what these scriptures are supposed to “prove”, but they certainly don’t disprove the Trinity e.g

Acts 2:33 (English-NIV)
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

This could disprove modalsim i.e the belief that Father=Son=Holy Spirit, it doesn’t disprove the Trinity.

1Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

This could disprove modalsim i.e the belief that Father=Son=Holy Spirit, it doesn’t disprove the Trinity.

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

This could disprove modalsim i.e the belief that Father=Son=Holy Spirit, it doesn’t disprove the Trinity.

Etc. etc. etc.

The summary says –

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

The implication being that God raises Jesus, so Jesus is not God, however elsewhere Jesus says that he raises himself –

Jn.2.19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Jn 17-18
17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life–only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

The summary says –

“The word trinity was introduced centuries after Christ.”

Not true, from the Catholic Encyclopedia –

“The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time.”

The summary says –

Do you think that it may be possible that so many Christians can be deceived regarding the trinity doctrine?.

No, Jesus founded a church and promised –

Mat.16.18 And I tell you that you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

And

John 16.12 “I have many more things to teach you, but now it would be too much for you to bear. But when the Spirit comes he will lead you into all truth”

The summary says –
Before the Reformation many obvious and simple truths were hidden from the people, such as being saved by grace rather than works.

The Catholic Church has never taught salvation by works, this document contains so many errors and half truths it is beginning to resemble the WatchTower magazine.

The summary says –

Jesus warned us to watch out for deceivers. In Acts 20:29 (English-NIV):
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

Heretics always see the established Church in these verses, never themselves, how curious.

More later.

Be Well.

August 3, 2003 at 9:58 pm#15584

Participant

are you guys hypocrites or what? I think the admin said, "don’t be prejudice, we will all look to find the truth, either way, God bless you" with so much pride it feels. Yet you don’t answer my simple small question. You go off into long tirades and quotes many lines long, you say "oh only if you give the verse, brandon, … THEN we will answer" and then you sweep it under the carpet. You are a hypocrite. Quoting so many verses, I am just a layman I haven’t memorized the bible word for word verse for verse, yet you don’t fail to give off quotes with the exact numbers for various sayings. if you’re so smart why don’t YOU give me the quote and verse to these very common verses. You KNOW which statements I’m talking about. I’ve read the gospels only a few times and I’m a common man trying to get some answers but YOU’RE the one being prejudice with no trinity doctrine.

August 3, 2003 at 10:00 pm#15603

Participant

answer my question, or delete my posts.

there seem to be only 2 or 3 people who are the only ones talking, c’mon you said you wanted a debate, this is hardly one at all.

August 4, 2003 at 2:15 am#15623

Participant

To BrandonIke,

I will give you answers in time, but I have a lot of work ahead of me with replying to Globals rebuttals with regards to the arguments that I have made earlier.

Please understand that sometimes we have to be patient and I think it is unwise to rush in and just give you a 5 minute answer. It’s not about quantity as some think, rather quality which takes time and much careful consideration.

Also, if I give you a good answer that witnesses as true to your heart. What will you do next. Will you just continue to believe in the trinity doctrine or will be you be at least open minded? Please be honest with you answer.

August 4, 2003 at 6:47 am#15490

Participant

Thank you for your reply Global,

I actually didn’t say that there are three seperate eternal persons.

I was making the point; that to say that there are three seperate eternal persons and also say that there is one eternal spirit that is God, is totally contradictary.

August 4, 2003 at 9:18 am#15508

Participant

Quote

Quote: from BrandonIke on 5:00 pm on Aug. 3, 2003
answer my question, or delete my posts.

there seem to be only 2 or 3 people who are the only ones talking, c’mon you said you wanted a debate, this is hardly one at all.

I am very interested in the scripture you have spoken about and am keen to study the meaning behind it.

Could you please help me out by giving the book, chapter, and verse.

Then I hope I will be able to also help you out with some sort of answer regarding the subject.

I don’t think there are hippocritters here:)

Look forward to your reply dude!

August 4, 2003 at 9:26 am#15395

Participant

To BrandonIke,

Hang in there dude, as I try to keep away from long worded and complicated explanations and just let the Word speak the truth.

Just hurry up and get me that scripture, then I’ll get onto the answer.:)

thanks dude.

August 4, 2003 at 10:04 am#15358

Participant

ok, in 5 seconds I typed the verse in yahoo search and it showed, "And now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began" (John 17:5).
you who are quick to belt out 15 verses in one post, couldn’t do this on your own? I told you I’m only a novice with the Bible, I’m a teenager. I was hoping for YOU to teach me and know this stuff.

the second quote: He is often jealous: "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God. . ." Deut. 5:9, Ex. 20:5 . "For the Lord thy God is a jealous God among you. . ." Deut. 6:15 .See also: Ex. 34:14, Deut. 4:24, Deut. 29:20, Psalms 78:58, Ezek. 16:38, Ezek. 36:5-6 and Joshua 24:19 .

from 10 seconds at another search. Must I do everything for you? I had doubts about the Trinity, but I fear God, I don’t fear man, as you say trinitarians all do. I fear God, and if God is a Trinity and I don’t believe in that, then I would be punished, you see?

August 4, 2003 at 11:50 am#15325

Participant

Thanks BrandonIke for your patience,

I will attempt to make this as simple as possible:)

In the very first chapter of John it says:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning.

‘Word’ is from the Greek; ‘logos’, which means: thought of mind, creative thought, or plan.

In the same chapter it says that the ‘Word’ became flesh. This flesh we know as the baby born of Mary; Jesus.

Jesus actually had a dual nature; His flesh(humanity) and the Spirit of God(Divinity) that dwelt within Him.

The eternal Spirit that fills all of creation; God, dwells within the perfect vessel; Jesus, yet continues to retain His Divine attributes of omnipresence(fills all creation), omniscience(knows everything) and omnipotence(all powerful).

Because God is eternal, the future redemption plan of Jesus, is clearly within His mind ‘BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN’, just as your thoughts are with you before you even type them.

He(God’s foreknowledge of Jesus) was indeed with God in the beginning, while the Deity within Jesus is the very same substance that is God.

This can be confirmed simply by following on a little from the original scripture you gave, in:

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of YOUR NAME-the name YOU GAVE ME-so that they may be one as WE ARE ONE. NIV

The name Jesus is also the very same name as God! That is why:

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." NIV

I hope you can see that God remains the one, unchanging, eternal Sprit that He is.

And that is why Jesus says that the most important commandment of all is to not only believe that there is only ONE God, but to also know WHO He is.

Well dude, obviously you’re gonna have some questions to get a deeper meaning, so that’s when I’ll bring out some more scripural evidence.

Look4ward 2 ur reply:)

August 4, 2003 at 1:45 pm#15312

Participant

Hi BrandonIke,

I'm going to be honest with you and say that I don't appreciate your demanding attitude. Your statement “Must I do everything for you?” is certainly entertaining in the sense that you want us to do everything. You know we certainly all have lives and commitments outside of this board and if someone asks a question, we should expect that people may not be able to answer immediately for one reason or another. Also I have many answers for other people to write and it is truly a time consuming exercise, but a rewarding one too. I just ask you to be fair and understanding.

e.g I spent my whole Sunday updating this site and answering 2 previous questions in the Forum. I have much more to write too and in addition I administer and maintain other web sites. Some are much bigger than this one as far as content and updating is concerned.

But I can appreciate that you are searching and questioning and because of that, I give you the following:

Isaiah 48 (KJV)
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

The same verse in the NIV:

Isaiah 48:11 (NIV)
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.

John 17:5
“And now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began”

Ok we can see in one verse God that says that he will not give his glory to another and in the second verse we see that Jesus is asking for that glory. Also if we think about it, he actually had that glory when the Isaiah verse was written because he was in heaven at that stage.

I also quoted the Isaiah verse in 2 different translations. The NIV used the word yield and that word is usually used in the context of giving something up as aposed to giving something generously.

But can we really assume that Jesus must be God in order to make these 2 verses make sense and avoid conflict. I do not think so.

If this were so, then we would have to conclude that we are God too because we share in the glory of Christ. Of course this assumption is rediculous but it is the only logical conclusion if Jesus is God and if God gives his glory to no one.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs, heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:14
He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 5:1
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:

So I think the answer is in the difference in meanings of the words “yeild/give” and the word “share”. So God will not yield his glory, but he does share it.

I also disagree with CJG's assumption that the The name Jesus is also the very same name as God!

CJG: I feel that you see the scriptures through a Oneness filter and you were too quick to answer BrandonIke's question, but I believe you did that because of your Oneness slant. Using creeds or man made doctrine only taints the way we read scripture and tends to make people answer questions to point to that doctrine, with little thought as to what the scripture is really saying. You know full well that Trintarians do this and maybe it would be wise for you to not follow in their footsteps.

I think that it is obvious that this scripture has nothing to do with the debated idea that Jesus is God and perhaps the way to learn this is to read the scripture and let the Spirit of God teach you. Instead of seeing everything as an opportunity to promote a certain doctrine, whether true or false, you should think about what the scripture is saying. Anyway can I ask you if you are a Oneness follower? Just a simple yes or no will do.

To Global,
I will get around your rebuttals to my Trinity writings eventually. I want to defend my arguments in the same order that you have challenged them. I made a start back on page 21.

Thx for your patience.

August 4, 2003 at 7:16 pm#15288

Participant

OK FINALLY, YOU ANSWERED!! I’M VERY DEMANDING AND I THINK I’M JUSTIFIED, coz this post was all the way back in like page 3!!!! it’s been 20 pages, and you finally answered. Plus I do not take credit for the question SOMEONE ELSE posted it. I’m just bringing it to your attention. if you don’t like my demanding then maybe you should step down as administrator, if you "are too busy". you know what I don’t like about you admin? you’re bad spelling. "aposed" instead of "opposed" and other errors. how about that? "Do not judge, lest you be judged in the same manner"

August 4, 2003 at 11:30 pm#15280

Participant

Come on BrandonIke, I was just being honest about time contraints. And yes I am sure that some questions in among the many in this discussion have escaped being answered, either due to time constraints coupled with forgetting about the question as the discussion progresses or because God's Spirit didn't lead me there at that time. Sometimes we have to wait on the LORD. It's not like we just push a button and God takes care of our demands.

Zechariah 4:6
So he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.

You may notice that all of my questions or statements were not answered or challenged sufficiently, but I am happy to say that Global is actually challenging my Trinity writing which amounts to the same thing. Thats like 20 pages later too.

About the spelling mistakes, well that just supports my argument that we shouldn't be pushed into answering things too quickly because we make mistakes when we rush into things.

Anyway I do appreciate your boldness in searching out things for yourself.

Luke 11:5-9
5 Then he said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread,
6 because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.'
7 “Then the one inside answers, 'Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.'
8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man's boldness he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

August 5, 2003 at 6:17 am#15256

Participant

To t8,
thanks for that t8

So you are the one who decides how soon I should attempt to answer someone who is obviously screaming out for an answer?

I actually thought I was doing something positive!

However, I do agree with you when you say I used the opportunity to promote the doctrine that I believe, forgive me if I offended you.

I was merely trying to point out the fact that, God being one, is more important to understand, in order to fully understand all other scripture. Why else would this be the first and most important of all commandments?

This teaching is not a ‘creed’ or a ‘man made doctrine’. I believe this whole heartedly due to the simple fact that after going though many other different teachings(trinity, mormon, JW), this without a doubt is the only teaching I have found to line up with biblical evidence and completely harmonize all scripture, no matter what topic is looked at.

You say that I follow in the footsteps of trinitarians, yet you yourself believe that Jesus and God are two seperate persons; How can I(one God advocate), follow trinitarians(three Gods)? When you advocate plurality yourself: TWO!

You now mispell my name, when many times previously my name was spelt correct by you.

Why do I sense a spirit of contention here t8 as you yourself have said to many others that this forum is here for all to put forward their views?

And yes, I do believe that there is only one God.

If Jesus isn’t the name that God has chosen for Himself, then please explain the following evidence:

Acts 9:5 Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I AM JESUS, whom you are persecuting," he replied. NIV

1 Tim 2:5-6 For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the MAN CHRIST Jesus, NIV

It is plain and clear to understand just by these few scipture, the name Jesus is the name that God has chosen for Himself.

Look 4ward 2 ur reply:)

August 5, 2003 at 1:07 pm#15240

Participant

To GJG,

No I don’t decide what people says here, but the Heaven Net web site was always about searching the scriptures with an honest heart to see if it is so. The intention was to search the scriptures with no prejudice and take each scripture and build a picture from there, rather than start with a picture and match up the scripture with that picture.

I believe that all established false doctrine implores the second method and it is a bit of a shame that pushing such doctrine kind of drowns out that honest and passionate search for truth. But I am willing to admit that this is the real world and I will at least challenge these doctrines, knowing full well that this may take a very long time. However some of the people that use to post have left because they have told me that they are sick of every man an his dog coming here and pushing some man made teaching. They were originally interested in the honest approach at the beginning.

I know of other Forums that just ban those who push the trinity, because they are sick of all the old arguments they use and each new trinitarian comes with the some old stuff, over and over again to the point of being overwhelmed.

But I have decided in this Forum that anyone can Post here and if we get the same old stuff from an overwhelming amount of people, I though I would just point people to where that question has been answered and they can contest it from there. However this doesn’t stop me from speaking what I think and I still think that if someone asks a question, then we should answer that question, rather than use it as a platform to push a controversial doctrine. Otherwise we just end up with Trinitarians, Oneness, JWs, Mormons, Al Queda, IRA etc all going at each other and pushing some kinda philosophy and that totally defeats the intended purpose of searching the scriptures to see if it is so.

You say that you need to build your case from the platform that God is one and I can absolutely respect that, but you also say that Jesus is the Most High God and that is as controversial as the Trinity doctrine itself. However I would like to explore your beliefs deeper and test it with scripture. But I think that I should first defend Global’s rebuttals with my trinity writing first.

For now at least I would like to say that I believe that scripture teaches us that the Father is the true God and even the God of Jesus Christ. I believe that the scriptures are also very clear about Jesus being the Son of God and the Messiah, that he pre-existed as the Son of God and the Word of God. I don’t believe in a dual God, I believe what the scriptures say, one God the Father. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, he is not God, rather like him.

Just because John 1 says that the Word was God, many think they have the right to replace the word "Word" with the word "God". e.g "The Word became flesh", now becomes God became flesh. Again, John 1:1 doesn’t say that the Word is God. John says was. We also know from other scriptures that Jesus came from God, was begotten of God and is subject to God. In other words God became a Father when he begat a Son. Even our spirits came from God, but we are not God are we.

August 5, 2003 at 1:40 pm#15235

Participant

To GJG,

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of YOUR NAME-the name YOU GAVE ME-so that they may be one as WE ARE ONE.

Now I am no expert on this subject and I am certainly open to learning here, but I understand that God's name is Yahweh, Yahveh, or Jahveh or Jahweh. (A name for God assumed by modern scholars to be a convention for pronouncing the Tetragrammaton, YHWH).

Acts:7:30-39
that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So the Angel of the Lord is identified as Christ by Paul and God spoke through this Angel when he delivered the Law to Moses.

Exodus 23
20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.
21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.

Matthew 1:20-21
20 Yosef (Joseph), son of David, do not be afraid to take Miryam home with you as your wife; for what has been conceived in her is from the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit).
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Yeshua because he will save his people from their sins.

Jesus = “Jehovah is salvation”. The translation from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English goes something like this. Yeshua » Iesous » Jesu » Jesus.

Jesus original ministry was to the Jews, but over the course of time, Christianity spread to the Greeks. The Greeks obviously spoke a different language. As the message passed from the Hebrews to the Greeks, Jesus was no longer called according to His God given Hebrew name, but according to the name that the Greeks wanted to call Him, Ieasus. Now Ieasus is Greek for Joshua. Joshua, is the English way that we pronounce Yahshua. You will see this spelled many ways: Jeshua, Yeshua, Yeshuah, Yehshua, Yehshuah, Yahshua among others.

Anyway the name of Jesus contains the name of God, so God the Father gave his name to Christ. “Yah or Yeh”. It's similar to your dad giving you his name, (surname) and of course this is fitting considering that Jesus is God's Son. Anyway I thought that you may be interested in the following scripture.

Ephesians 3:15
from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Acts 9:5
Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I AM JESUS, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.

Lord = (Kurios) Lord, master, sir.

So given the possible meanings we can see that Saul could have said “Who are you master” or “Who are you sir.” Would Saul really say “Who are you God”?, if he believed it was actually God who was speaking. Wouldn't he just say “Is that you God”.

Anyway let's assume that Saul did say “Who are you God”?, while assuming that it was God. Well that wouldn't even prove that Jesus was God. I mean Saul believed that he was serving God and if he heard someone speak to him, he may have thought it was God talking to him. But it was Jesus Christ who spoke to him.

I personally do not see this verse as demonstrating that Jesus is God and I certainly wouldn't hinge this assumption on that verse.

If Jesus is the Angel of the LORD, and the LORD is the LORD, and we see that the 2 are often referred to in the same scripture, then maybe our carnal minds really cannot comprehend the way God reveals himself through his son. Maybe it is ignorance that says that the Word/Son/Angel of the Lord/The Christ/Son of Man/ is God.

1 Tim 2:5-6
For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the MAN CHRIST Jesus,

Yes Jesus is a man. The Word became flesh. Why did the Word become flesh? To destroy the works of the Devil and to save mankind from his sins. This verse doesn't prove that Jesus is God, rather Jesus is the Mediator.

August 6, 2003 at 3:25 am#15211

Participant

To t8, fair enough dude.:)

I again repeat, I do indeed agree with much of what you hold to be true. As I also agree with some of what is in the trinity.

It seems that differences arise where the Man-Christ Jesus is concerned. That is the main reason behind the topic ‘common ground’ being started up. But due to lack of response, I will continue within this topic

You believe God to be one: The omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent Spirit. And this fact alone is the most prevelent theme throughout the whole Bible. Thus, being the first and most important commandment of all.

Would it not be wiser to seek answers, with this one main point being the ultimate guide line?

August 6, 2003 at 3:37 am#15537