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Quote (Guest @ June 30 2005,18:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2005,18:53) ps Likewise we are not naturally one with Christ in God but must BECOME ONE by being born again into Christ who is in God.
If Man represents the singleness of God what does the taking of a different form from man and then uniting them represent?
Genesis 2:23 – And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.Just as man and woman are one (echad) flesh
So God and the Word of God are one (echad) spirit
Nick, if you don't like God's word take it up with Him
Hi FYI,
So a man must leave his father and mother to cleave to his wife that they BECOME ONE?I agree with that.
Two become One.Quote (Guest @ June 30 2005,17:46) Cubes, Gen 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
The two parties are God the Father talking to the Pre-incarnate Christ, The Word of God.
John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.. …14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Colossians 1:16 – For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Revelation 4:11 – Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Ephesians 3:9 – And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The creation of man is detailed to show us the relationship between God the Father and Christ. The sequence of events are critical. It was no accident that Adam was created a single individual first, then the woman taken from him.
Gen 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his
own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created he them.Gen. 2: 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Man was formed first as an individual to represent the absolute singleness of God the Father prior to Christ's being “brought forth”.
The rib taken from within Adam was representative of Christ (the Word Of God) being taken from within God the Father.
As the man was first and preceded woman, so God the Father was first and preceded Christ, the Word of God.
As woman is subject to man having been brought forth from him, so Christ is subject to the Father having been brought forth from Him.
The man and the woman are “one” flesh, she being from within and of his substance, so also the Father and Christ are “one” spirit substance, Christ having been brought forth from within and of the Father's substance.
Christ is the glory of the Father just as the woman is the glory of the man.
John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1 Corinthians 11:7 – For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
We are “promised” to Christ as one to be wed.
We are joined to Christ and espoused to Him, thus we become members of His body, just as Christ is of God.
We are “in the Father” by being joined to Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:2 – For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Hi,
FYI here boldly states who the two speaking in Genesis were.That is possible and even probable but unproven.
We must stick with what we know when we state fact.
FYI contends that God is triune. Then where was the “person” of the Spirit shown in the Genesis conversation?
How can a triune God appear biune and speak to himself?
Where is equality in all this as trinity theory specifies equality.
If God is the head of Christ, as scripture says, where is equality there?
Where did the notion of a trinity begin?
Did the understudies of the Apostles mention the trinity?
Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius were the students of the original apostles. They lived at the turn of the century, before and after 100 AD. Did they mention a trinity or give a description of a trinity in all their writings? No. Did they mention the Holy Spirit being a ground of consciousness distinct from the Father or Son? No. Did they mention the Holy Spirit being a person? No.
What about the next generation of writers, the Apologists? The Apologists wanted to demonstrate the Christian's faith as being supposedly compatible with Greek philosophy, ignoring the warnings of Paul (Colossians 2:8). In this era which included the later part of the 100's AD was Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, Tatian, and Athenagoras. Totally missing from their writings was any mention of a trinity. There was one bishop however, Irenaeus, of the same period of time, who mentioned “His Wisdom” as being a divine entity. He did this in reaction to gnosticism.
It was not until the 200's AD that even the primitive idea of a trinity began to take shape.
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, known as Tertullian, in the early 200's AD was the first to mention the primitive form of a trinity. He is the first person to use the word “trinity” and he was the first person to formulate the idea of one substance having three persons. He had the idea of the Spirit being a persona, not in the sense of a person but in the sense of a mask, which ancient actors would wear in a live play. Tertullian considered the Holy Spirit to be the “deputy” of the Son.
The idea of individual subsistence, hypostasis (from the Greek), was first introduced by Origen. Origen considered the Son to be derivative of the Father and the Spirit not to be co-equal to the Father or the Son. This idea (of the Son being derivative of the Father) would be latched onto by Arius in the 300's AD to eventually cause a major crisis leading to the Counsel of Nicea.
In the 300's AD, the Roman Emperor Constantine “converted” to Christianity. He made Christianity (the large group of what was called Christianity at that time) the official religion of Rome. By this time the religion (Christianity) had no resemblance to the church in which the Apostles were involved.
Arius in the 300's AD gained many followers as he taught that Christ was a created being, created by the Father. This was the birth of the idea of the unity (the idea of one God (the Father) denying the divinity of Christ). Arius made such an impact he created a crisis that led the Roman Emperor Constantine, at the behest of Pope Dionysius, to call together the Counsel of Nicea.
Up to that point in time, Monarchianism with monotheistic imperatives was pitted against those who believed the God head to be composed of more than one. There was the binity (God is a Kingdom consisting of 2 beings, Father and Son). There was the divine trias, which was the predecessor to the belief in the trinity. And most of all, there were the Arians (the followers of Arius).
So the Counsel of Nicea was called together in 325 AD. About 300 Catholic Bishops were brought together to resolve the dispute. The conclusion was the repudiation of Arianism.
The creed that came out of the Counsel of Nicea in 325 AD did not explicate the trinity. It simply proclaimed the divinity of Christ, rejecting Arianism. There was no resolution on the “personhood” of the Holy Spirit. That notion would not arise in full strength until the Counsel of Constantinople in 381 AD.
Basilius, commonly known as Basil, bishop of Caesarea in the later 300's AD, formulated ideas as to what the Holy Spirit was. This was mainly in reaction to Arius who was his enemy doctrinally. Basil and others such as Gregory of Nazianzus and Gregory of Nyssa were encouraged to develop ideas to combat the idea of arianism. The person who encouraged them was Athanasius who hated Arianism and wanted to wipe it out.
Gregory of Nazianzus acknowledged that the scripture does not refer to the Holy Spirit as God. Therefore they (he and the other Gregory and Basil) would have to pursue a line of logic outside of scripture in order to formulate the Holy Spirit to be more than it really is.
Using human reasoning, Basil concluded that spirit itself necessarily meant unchangeable. This is contrary to the teaching of scripture (some angels, for example, changed — they followed Satan!). Nevertheless it appealed to the academic minds of that day. Also using human reasoning, Basil concluded that if the Spirit was sanctified, how could it be anything less than divine. The next logical step (also using human reasoning) was to declare the Holy Spirit a person. And that is exactly what he did.
This reasoning was the basis for the creed that came out of the Counsel of Constantinople in 381 AD. This creed declared the Holy Spirit to be co-equal and co-essential to God the Father and God the Son. It was the origin of the doctrine of God in three persons, holy trinity, the doctrine that is popular even in today's information age.
Yep,
Up there with “the Simpsons” and just as realistic.
Thank you for that concise and clear summary F4Y.Truth does not evolve.
Anyone heard of this? What do you make of it?
50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript “She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, 'What will you give me for my work?' [Matt. 26:7-15]” (Huleatt fragments 1-3).
Hi FYI,
Quote You go ahead and reason away scripture however you like.
Any one specifically, or in general? If you point them out, we could talk.Quote Jesus said before Abraham was “I AM”. The learned Jews understood and sought to kill him. Jesus said His hand and the hand of the Father were the same.
Paul says they are equal and the same substance in Phill 2:6-8.
The Jews sought to kill Christ 'cause He said He was the Son of God.
I agree with the “I AM” comment in regards to Abraham. It does not mean that Jesus is the same being as God, nor does it say so. It just means that he lived before Abraham.
Jesus saying his hand is the Father's hand…I am not familiar with this inference, but Moses could make the same claim with regards to Pharoah and the children of Israel being sent to carry out God's mandate in the earth. “As the Father sent me, I send you…” Jesus said somewhere to the Apostles.
Is this what you mean by my reasoning scripture away? No. I am merely trying to not rely on my private interpretation of scripture but to use scripture to interpret scripture.Paul did not reflect your interpretation of Phil 2:6 in his greater body of work. He did not teach that Christ is the Father. Simple as that.
Yes, the Jews did seek to kill him for saying he is the Son of God. Not for any other claim.
Quote John said that Christ calling Himself the “Son of God” was making Himself “equal” to God the Father. John was stating other people's false understanding of what Jesus said. If we follow the logic that sons are equal to their fathers, then what stops us from extending the equation to all the children of God in whom the same Spirit dwell?
Are we co-heirs with the Father or with Christ?
Are we brethren with the Father or with Christ?Quote Jesus said “if you've seen me you've seen my Father” – I've just given you scripture that proves His substance is that of God the Father.
I can't speak about “substance” knowing nothing about the substance of God, but if you mean the same being as in one person, then let me say that Jesus also said that no man has seen God. And no one in Israel claimed to have seen God the Father — only Christ, the Son of God. Which is consistent with the scriptures that say that he is the express image of God… I think you should read Nick's posts concerning Christ, as a vessel in whom the glory of God dwell.Quote John said of Christ pre-incarnate that He was the Word of God that was with God and WAS God.
All will stand before the judgement seat of Christ and answer to God,
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
The WORD that was God that was with God is not the same as the God that he was with. The rest of the narratives reflect that. The Word is a God, but not the Most High God who is the first God mentioned in John 1:1. God would not say to himself, Seat at my right hand, etc. So seeing One being where it is not intended, and seeing three persons where there should be one being is rendering confusion. God and his Christ are not the same individual, for all intents and purposes.Regarding the judgment, yes, Jesus has been put in charge. Does not mean that he is the Father.
Hi cubes
FYI said “Jesus said his hand and the hand of the Father were the same” That certainly is not scriptural as you rightly say.He did say the Father was at his right hand.
He did say he worked “by the finger of God”
It does say he is now at the right hand of God.But I do not recall any statement suchs as FYI's.
He has again gone beyond what is revealed.
Quote (Guest @ June 30 2005,20:38) John said that Christ calling Himself the “Son of God” was making Himself “equal” to God the Father. John said of Christ pre-incarnate that He was the Word of God that was with God and WAS God.
All will stand before the judgement seat of Christ and answer to God,
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Be well, Good Bye.
Hi Cubes,
According to FYI:
John said this about equality? No he did not. Misguided and deceived enemies of Christ said that. Why would anyone following Christ agree with such a statement?Yes the Son of God was with God. Separate and with God in the beginning.
Yes we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ though for his followers it will be the tribunal of Christ as they will be in the first resurrection. God has given all judgement to the Son, so Christ will be the actual judge.
It is so naiive to read every verse that shows Christ doing the work of God as it being God Himself doing that work.
Quote (Guest @ June 29 2005,20:35) Nick, Gal 3: 15 To give a human example, brethren: no one annuls even a man's will, or adds to it, once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many; but, referring to one, “And to your offspring,” which is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. 19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary (Abraham). 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one.
The promise was given to the Word of God which was the future Son of God through the intermediary which is Abraham.
Verse 20 says that having an intermediary implies two parties – but God is one party – the Father and the Son.
Christ is our husband, assuming you are born-again and betrothed to Christ. Since Christ is one Spirit with the Father, anyone joined to Christ is automatically “in the Father” as He Christ is “one spirit” in the Father.
Christ is the ONLY perfect mediator – He alone is our Kinsman redeemer, just as Boaz married the gentile Ruth and she became an Isrealite, we too being married to Christ are members of His body and therefore members of God thru Christ.
This is exactly why Christ is the ONLY way to God – you MUST be joined (betrothed) to Him or you cannot come to God the Father.
Hi Cubes,
Here FYI says “God is one party-Father and Son”What is going on?
Was it a binity we were talking about all along rather than a trinity? Where is the Spirit person he claims equality with here? Is the name of Yahweh not that of the Spirit also in his view?
Confusion building on confusion and lies upon lies.
Who needs this stuff?
When will they see the Emperor is wearing no clothes?Quote (Guest @ June 30 2005,17:30) This does not negate the Fact that Christ is the mediator between God the Father and man – He is.
Hi ,
When does “God” in scripture mean “trinity” and when does it mean the Father, or the Father and the Son?When it suits the particular doctrinal stance of the trinitarian.
Did God as “trinity” have no problem with man that needed a mediator but only the Father?
Does nobody realise this type of artificial division of God is insulting to God? Does nobody fear God?
Hi cubes,
2Cor4.1 “Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bondservants for Jesus' sake.
For God who said,
'Light shall shine out of darkness,'
is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels; so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves”We are in Christ and we contain the glorious Spirit of God. God, by His Spirit in us is the one who teaches us from within and shows us the reflection of Himself in His Son. God's Spirit also is the power we are given to stand firm against the attacks from unbelievers who are blinded and cannot see the gospel of Christ. All we have to do is keep holding on to and preaching the simple straightforward truth in the Word of God.
1 Timothy 6: 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Revelation 17:14 – These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Revelation 19:16 – And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
1 Corinthians 2:8 – Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
James 2:1 – My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Psalms 24:7 – Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
John 14:23 – Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
1 Corinthians 6:17 – But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13 – For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Psalms 24:8 – Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
Psalms 24:9 – Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Psalms 24:10 – Who is this King of glory? The LORD (YHWH) of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Jesus is not His own Father.
Jesus is the Son of the Living God!
YHWH in the OT refers to both God and the Word of God.
You all are in my prayers!
Psalms 116:13 – I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD (YHWH).
Psalms 116:17 – I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD (YHWH).
Zephaniah 3:9 – For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD (YHWH), to serve him with one consent.
Romans 10: 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Joel 2: 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (YHWH) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (YHWH) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (YHWH) shall call.
Accts 2: 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 22: 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
To call upon the name of the Lord is to put your faith in Him.
http://bibleone.net/print_tbs54.html
“In Genesis 4:26 it is recorded that starting with the children of Adam that “then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.” In Genesis 12:8, Abram (Abraham) constructed an altar on a mountain between Bethel and Hai and “called upon the name of the Lord.” These acts of calling upon the Lord were not mere acts of prayer; they were acts of faith, by which men expressed their genuine confidence (trust) in God as they came to Him in recognition and worship. In fact, Abraham is primarily honored in the New Testament for his great faith (Hebrews 11:8-10, 17) and regarding the subject of salvation (righteousness) it is repeated several times in the New Testament that Abraham acquired such only by faith (Romans 4:3; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23). When one considers Abraham, the Father of Israel, one cannot but be convinced that he was a man after God’s own heart due to his faith.”
Jesus said:
John 14:1 – Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Matthew 11:28 – Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
John 7:37 – In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
John 14:23 – Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
We get to Father God by calling on – believing in – the name of YHWH.
Once your faith is in the Son you have fellowship with BOTH!
Be Well!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2005,04:57) Hi ,
When does “God” in scripture mean “trinity” and when does it mean the Father, or the Father and the Son?When it suits the particular doctrinal stance of the trinitarian.
Did God as “trinity” have no problem with man that needed a mediator but only the Father?
Does nobody realise this type of artificial division of God is insulting to God? Does nobody fear God?
How did we stray so far from the shores of truth, and how can something so straight forward have been read into by so many for so long?The membership list of the Trinity Doctrine has undoubtedly given it some credibility over the years…whatever is good for so and so must be the way of Christianity. I love many of the hymn writers of centuries past and enjoy many of their songs, but I see now how some of them would start out following scripture lyrically….and then boom, inject Trinity concept… and keep right on going. Well, since these are the songs of worship and loved by most every one, no one thinks anything of it…we just continue singing with ever so much gusto…and this has been one of the means of advertisement for the common people so that the roll of membership boomed giving more and more credibility to the false understanding of God.
The popular hymn, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY” is one such example.
Starts out so well with this truth that Almighty God is HOLY…. then ends with “God in three persons, blessed Trinity.” Where does the hymnist come to this conclusion?
And since he did such a great job so far why question him… and since we love God, why not glorify him anyway with the song? And so it has gone on…
So our worship has been changed from Spirit and Truth into something else, certainly a lie… and who can say how much we've suffered (perish) for the lack of knowledge?In the Rev 4 and 5 scenes of worship and praise of the Father and of the Lamb of God, we don't even hear a word spoken of the Spirit of God and there are only two on their thrones… I don't believe scripture also indicates any example of worship of the Holy Spirit.
I have more recently been consciously trying to correct my thinking even when I sing many of these songs in praise, acknowledging Father and Son in their right relationships and it has so enhanced my experience…the beauty of holiness that I might have never appreciated.
One song I love that reflects truth doctrinally is IMO: THERE IS A REDEEMER written by Melody Green, recorded by her late husband Keith Green who according to the biography that she wrote on his behalf, also questioned the trinity. This simple little song magnifies both the Father and Son and accurately depicts the Rev 5 scene. The Father actually gets some credit for giving us his Son, and the son praised for all that he has done for us.
So that's my message, that we pay attention to what we sing and teach the children. Lately when we praise God in song, I read the scriptural passages that the songs are based on to the family and any doctrinal errors are addressed then with the word of God, and then we go on and sing. [we also do a “who is this addressed to?” in the biblical passage] It helps to combat the error, reinforce the reality of God's truth, transforming our minds into the accurate knowledge of him and his Son so that we can worship him in Truth and in Spirit all our lives long. Of course we sing them our own new songs as well.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2005,10:16) Hi cubes,
2Cor4.1 “Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bondservants for Jesus' sake.
For God who said,
'Light shall shine out of darkness,'
is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels; so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves”We are in Christ and we contain the glorious Spirit of God. God, by His Spirit in us is the one who teaches us from within and shows us the reflection of Himself in His Son. God's Spirit also is the power we are given to stand firm against the attacks from unbelievers who are blinded and cannot see the gospel of Christ. All we have to do is keep holding on to and preaching the simple straightforward truth in the Word of God.
Amen, Nick. The scripture is so on target.FYI, got to run. Will read your posts on this page later. Glad you are sticking around.
F4Y,
Thanks for that concise presentation of Trinity Doctrine development. I have posted my own observations above. And do please come back and share your non-preexistence position of Jesus with us. We need to see what you have and mirror it against the texts that say that Jesus came from heaven to see which stands.
The Trinity is a NO GO and has not stood up scripturally except where texts are read into, often unsubstantiated by other scriptures and more than often, outrightly refuted by scripture.
I'll try and make this as simple as possible:
Exodus 20: 2 I am the LORD (YHWH) thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 5:2 – Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Hebrews 1:8 – But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God (Jesus), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Zechariah 12:10 – And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me (YHWH) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 1:23 – Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Revelations 1: 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 21:22 – And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Revelations 22: 1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
John 14:1 – Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 5:18 – Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Isaiah 42:8 – I am the LORD, that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to graven images.
Ezekiel 39:21 – “And I will set my glory among the nations; and all the nations shall see my judgment which I have executed, and my hand which I have laid on them.
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