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Hi ,
Matt 3.16
“And after being baptised , Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold , the heavens were opened , and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him, and behold a voice out of the heavens saying
'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased'
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil”Lk 4.1
” And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led about by the Spirit in the wilderness”So the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Jesus is the Son of God and not God Himself as God told us so.This is the beginning of the ministry of Christ.Thenceforth his vessel carried the majesty and power of God among His people performing his saving works through the Son of God.
Quote (Guest @ June 28 2005,03:31) All, Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. Paul explains the context of sonship in Phill. 2:6. Christ's morphe or essence (His permanent element of being), prior to His incarnation, is equal to that of God the Father.
This essence is above, separate, and distinct from all of created beings including man and angels.
The only uncreated thing is God:
Gen 21: 33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD (YHWH), the everlasting (Gr.=olam) God.
That which Christ is, is from within the Father, not by context of creation, but rather from His being “brought forth” from the Father.
John 16:28 – I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
This verse defines two events. The first is a definition of Christ's existence as coming from the Father. The second is of Christ's coming into the world to die for our sins.
The first event happened in eternity past.
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee (according to the flesh) shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Gr.=olam).
The second event in Bethlehem
Hebrews 10: 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Luke 1:35 – And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Phill. 2:6-8 describes what Christ had to lay down to take on the essence of becoming a true human being. The form of His own creation, permanently. None of the event of the incarnation changes “who” He is in relation to the Father, but rather that he took on the form of a servant as well. He is still, and will always be, the only begotten Son of the Living God.
John 1: 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16 – For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
John 1: 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Hi FYI,
Here you say that The son of God was not created -“not by context of creation”-but then you say he had to “lay aside the form of his own creation”.What do you mean? You seem to say he was created. Do you also say he, as God, created Himself?
But you say Jesus is God and “God is the only uncreated thing”? In what way is God only a thing? This is getting confusing.
Who then prepared a body for Jesus? God of which you say Jesus is a part?
Scripture says he “emptied himself taking the form of a bondservant”. You say “he took on the form of a servant AS WELL”. Neat little addition to scripture there. How can you justify such additions to God's Word?Good morning Nick,
At least for me it is morning!
Nick,
Scripture teaches us that Christ “emptied” Himself. In Christ's own words he laid down His glory to become a man. He truly became a man Nick. But His origin is not equal to that of Adam or any “created” being. His substance is that “from” God the Father, not by creation – but rather by being “brought forth” from within the Father.
John 17:5 – And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
This glory before the world was is what He “emptied” Himself of to become a human, take upon Himself the sins of the world and puge us by His blood.
Nick,
The head of Woman is the man.
The head of man is Christ.
The head of Christ is the Father.
Nick,
We have been “betrothed” to Christ. We are “promised” to Him as one to be wed.
2 Corinthians 11:2 – For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Nick,
The analogy of marriage runs deep in scripture.
1 Corinthians 11:3 – But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Quote (Guest @ June 28 2005,10:51) Nick, Scripture teaches us that Christ “emptied” Himself. In Christ's own words he laid down His glory to become a man. He truly became a man Nick. But His origin is not equal to that of Adam or any “created” being. His substance is that “from” God the Father, not by creation – but rather by being “brought forth” from within the Father.
John 17:5 – And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
This glory before the world was is what He “emptied” Himself of to become a human, take upon Himself the sins of the world and puge us by His blood.
Hi FYI,
Yes .No problem. But do you assume his glory was equal to that of the Father's or can you show us this in scripture?Can you show his substance was exactly the same as the Fathers? We do not understand the depths of divinity and should never presume.He had glory with the Father in the beginning but as the Son derived from the Father how is it possible he could have equality? His very existence depended on the will and the gift of life from the Father.
The source of that life is greater than the recipient and Jesus said His Father was greater than he.
Quote (Guest @ June 28 2005,10:57) Nick, We have been “betrothed” to Christ. We are “promised” to Him as one to be wed.
2 Corinthians 11:2 – For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Yes FYI,
Those who are called and chosen are expected to keep them selves as chaste virgins avoiding the temptations of the whore who beckons down the side streets with her false and idolatrous doctrines.
“Come out of her my people”
We remain faithful to the bridegroom by abiding in his teachings and not being lured away into apostasy.Nick,
“Can you show his substance was exactly the same as the Fathers? We do not understand the depths of divinity and should never presume.”
Yes I can.
But, answer me one question first.
Who is God speaking to:
Genesis 1:26 – And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Hi FYI,
It is likely that God was speaking to His Son through whom everything was made. So as in everything the Father and His beloved Son work in perfect harmony but are separate.If they were conjoined or compound then why would they speak as if they are two? It does not mean God is an “us” but two beings are conversing. It offers absolutely no evidence that God is any kind of foolish “compound God”.
That speculation has been added by men insulting both the Father and the Son.
Nick,
Gen 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
The two parties are God the Father talking to the Pre-incarnate Christ, The Word of God.
John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.. …14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Colossians 1:16 – For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Revelation 4:11 – Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Ephesians 3:9 – And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The creation of man is detailed to show us the relationship between God the Father and Christ. The sequence of events are critical. It was no accident that Adam was created a single individual first, then the woman taken from him.
Gen 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his
own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created he them.Gen. 2: 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Man was formed first as an individual to represent the absolute singleness of God the Father prior to Christ's being “brought forth”.
The rib taken from within Adam was representative of Christ (the Word Of God) being taken from within God the Father.
As the man was first and preceded woman, so God the Father was first and preceded Christ, the Word of God.
As woman is subject to man having been brought forth from him, so Christ is subject to the Father having been brought forth from Him.
The man and the woman are “one” flesh, she being from within and of his substance, so also the Father and Christ are “one” spirit substance, Christ having been brought forth from within and of the Father's substance.
Christ is the glory of the Father just as the woman is the glory of the man.
John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1 Corinthians 11:7 – For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
We are “promised” to Christ as one to be wed.
We are joined to Christ and espoused to Him, thus we become members of His body, just as Christ is of God.
We are “in the Father” by being joined to Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:2 – For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2005,20:55) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 25 2005,17:10) Ahhh, I change my mind! I choose to bow out of this never ending drivel. Father Yahweh is NOT His son Yahshua and Yahshua did NOT pre-exist.
Hi F4Y,
That is one approach but we would prefer you to stay and try to substantiate your claims that Jesus Christ is not who he said he was and which scripture agrees about him-the Son of God through whom all creation, including that of Satan, was made. He is the only “only begotten” Son. You denigrate the Son who we respect.
Nick,Just out of curiosity I will check in from time to time and see if you substantiate your claims with FYI. I see you have not as of yet, (Ahhh, let me count the posts!
) and I doubt that you will in the future. I would say the same would result between you and I. I do believe that you will find the content of the link that I have posted of some value in your endeavor to substantiate your beliefs with FYI. I perceive this discussion to be quite fruitless and a waste of time. These debates have been going on now long before we ever came into existence Nick.So, you two have it and ramble on!
Interesting FYI,
So if the Son of God was “taken from” God as woman was “taken from” man then the relationship between God and the Son is the same as the relationship between a man and a woman?Now I met my wife when I was twentythree and we married at 24. I had known of her for a couple of years earlier. But we had grown up with entirely separate lives 150 miles apart. As you say we are originally related as I am a descendant of Adam, and Eve was taken from Adam. We both originally have Irish roots from towns 50k apart in the North. But she is dark haired and I am Celtic stock. We have entirely different genes and blood types.
So in your view the relationship between the Father and the Son was exactly the same.The Son had a similar entirely separate existence with his own life. He was living in very close fellowship with His Father but not connected in any other way? Of course he was much closer in type to God than we humans are to each other, as he was the image of God.
What man marries someone whom he is connected with prior to marriage.? That is silly. We marry a being who is entirely separate and BECOME one with them as the Father is with the Son. We can have a relationship with each other because we are separate. So also the Father can have a relationship with the Son.
Is this what you mean as it is entirely consistent with your view expressed above?
Nick,
I had hoped you would have been a man of character and not ran down the “sexual” road.
Reminds me of:
Matthew 22:28 – Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
I seriously question your character!
Hi FYI,
Why should you say that?The relationship between the Father and the Son on earth is not in any way sexual. What a foolish thought!
It is far closer that that.
Sexual unity is physical and temporary but is part of the deeper unity God sees between a husband and wife.
The unity betwen the Father and the Son is spiritual and eternal. God, by His Spirit, entered and lived in his submitted Son and was allowed to do His work through him.
That unity is far deeper that physical. We also can enjoy the same privilege continuing the work of God through our life in the Son by the Spirit in us.
So your sexual innuendo is unjustified. But, as before, I warn that God personifies false doctrine as idolatry and the sexual seduction by a whore who is still stealing lives from the Master.
So FYI,
Getting back to the 42nd or so question you have not answered what of the separation between the Father and Son issue lest we be diverted again?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2005,22:37) So FYI,
Getting back to the 42nd or so question you have not answered what of the separation between the Father and Son issue lest we be diverted again?
Nick,Actually, the last question was that of the “substance” of Christ.
The point of the scriptures is that Christ's substance is ETERNAL as the Father is – Christ is ETERNAL
Christ is ONE (ECHAD) with the Father – They are YHWH!
Why are you trying to run from the original question.
Eve was truly the “flesh” of Adam.
Christ is truly the same spirit substance of the Father.
Hi FYI,
So what you are saying is that the Son is derived from the eternal divine nature and so must also be considered to be eternal .
So because the Father is eternal and the Son is begotten from the Father and they both have divine nature that makes the Son eternal too?
But if the Son was begotten from the Father that means he had a beginning when he was begotten surely?
Or do you say he is a part of God that has been separated off and called “the Son” from then on but is still that God he was begotten from?
Did the Son never have life in himself but only shared the life of the Father in your view and any separation was only cosmetic?
Woman is the flesh of man-entirely separate and with a different genetic base with different[xx\xy] chromosomes yet derived from man.
Is that how you see the similarity between the Father and the Son too?Nick,
I didn't want to have to repeat myself over and over but I will since you ask the same things over and over.
—————–
All,
Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. Paul explains the context of sonship in Phill. 2:6. Christ's morphe or essence (His permanent element of being), prior to His incarnation, is equal to that of God the Father.
This essence is above, separate, and distinct from all of created beings including man and angels.
The only uncreated one is YHWH God:
Micah 5:2 – But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Gr.=olam).
Gen 21: 33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD (YHWH), the everlasting (Gr.=olam)God.
Genesis 21:33 – And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD (YHWH), the everlasting (Gr.=olam)God.
Isaiah 40:28 – Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting (Gr.=olam)God, the LORD (YHWH), the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
John 1: 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16 – For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
John 1: 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
You make silly comments:
“But if the Son was begotten from the Father that means he had a beginning when he was begotten surely?”
Eternity is the absence of time – so how can you rationally say this statement?
Do you not understand the word “eternal”? I will help you:
Main Entry: 1eter·nal
Pronunciation: i-'t&r-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity — more at AYE
1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God
2 a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL b : seemingly endless
3 archaic : INFERNAL
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS
– eter·nal·ize /-n&l-“Iz/ transitive verb
– eter·nal·ly /-n&l-E/ adverb
– eter·nal·ness nounSo Christ's goings forth are from the infinite past!
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