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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2005,22:27) Quote (Guest @ June 27 2005,20:12) Finally we agree – The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father! Jesus is the Son of God “brought forth” from the Father and they are YHWH in compound unity, just as the bible says!
Deuteronomy 6:4 – Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one (echad) LORD:
The son being “brought forth” is of the same spirit substance as the Father!
Phill. 2:6 form = Gr. morphe
Hi FYI,
When Jesus spoke with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection in Lk 24 we are told in Mk 16 he appeared in a different “form” to them. Did he appear as a man?-yes. So “form” here does not mean “substance” or he would not have appeared as a man surely? So it must have related to some aspect of his dress or appearance surely.So we know the Son of God is of divine nature as is God but you seem to assume they are thus identical and of eternally shared substance. Have I got this right? Have they never been separate in your view but Jesus is just an extension of the substance of the Father who came to earth?
Nick,You do not believe the word so it makes no difference if I explain it, you still will not believe.
Start with Phill. 2:6. You must believe that as a foundation or you cannot be taught.
Paul says explicitly that Christ is the same substance of God the Father.
If you reject that you will never see.
HiFYI,
I do not see the word “substance” written. Form is not necessarily substance so can you explain why you say substance?Quote (Guest @ June 27 2005,22:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2005,21:44) Hi FYI,
But his words do not seem to abide in you. Instead you go beyond what is revealed and confidently teach what does not come from the mouth of the Master but from your human teachers.
Nick,I don't live by your “perceptions” or attempted intimidations. I live by the Spirit of Truth who brings the Word of God alive.
But, I appreciate your concerns and will continue to speak the truth and pray that God will grant you eyes and a heart of humility that you may see.
Hi FYI,
If we follow the Spirit we can always check our path because the Spirit leads us back to the Word, the teachings of Christ.We do not walk just by the “Spirit” but we are told to “test the spirits”
The test is whether Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Do you agree with this?
Or did Yahweh come in the flesh?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2005,22:42) HiFYI,
I do not see the word “substance” written. Form is not necessarily substance so can you explain why you say substance?
Nick,I do not mean “substance” as it relates to solid material, but rather as it relates to that which makes something what it is.
Substance has several meanings. So I want to be clear.
Webster:
Substance – 1 a : essential nature : ESSENCE b : a fundamental or characteristic part or quality
essence – 1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence c : the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is
2 : something that exists : ENTITYVines on “form”:
denotes “the special or characteristic form or feature” of a person or thing; it is used with particular significance in the NT, only of Christ, in Phil. 2:6,7, in the phrases “being in the form of God,” and “taking the form of a servant.” An excellent definition of the word is that of Gifford: “morphe is therefore properly the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual, and retained as long as the individual itself exists. … Thus in the passage before us morphe Theou is the Divine nature actually and inseparably subsisting in the Person of Christ. … For the interpretation of 'the form of God' it is sufficient to say that (1) it includes the whole nature and essence of Deity, and is inseparable from them, since they could have no actual existence without it; and (2) that it does not include in itself anything 'accidental' or separable, such as particular modes of manifestation, or conditions of glory and majesty, which may at one time be attached to the 'form,' at another separated from it. …
*bump*
Hi FYI,
So you do say Christ is and always has been inseparably one with the God of the bible?So clearly Christ is that God, 'permanently in essence' in flesh in your view?
So the Son was never truly a separate son as we would know one in your view?
So how does this 'morphe' fit with the different 'form' of Christ on the way to Emmaus?
What happened to Christ when the Spirit of God filled Him? nothing ?
When Christ took the “form” of a servant then, since “morphe” is the essence as defined here was he transformed from his divine nature to be only human nature, 'inseperably subsisting' only as a man till he died? If Morphe means what you say you must show it works in all these contexts surely.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2005,01:04) Hi FYI,
So you do say Christ is and always has been inseparably one with the God of the bible?So clearly Christ is that God, 'permanently in essence' in flesh in your view?
So the Son was never truly a separate son as we would know one in your view?
So how does this 'morphe' fit with the different 'form' of Christ on the way to Emmaus?
What happened to Christ when the Spirit of God filled Him? nothing ?
When Christ took the “form” of a servant then, since “morphe” is the essence as defined here was he transformed from his divine nature to be only human nature, 'inseperably subsisting' only as a man till he died? If Morphe means what you say you must show it works in all these contexts surely.
Nick,That's whay it's hard to have any kind of discussion with you, I post a definition of a word and you fly off into ravenous questions and accusations.
Hi FYI,
Why do these questions not deserve answers too?How can you expect us to take you seriously when you seem selective about answering questions and divert onto tangents instead of giving the questions due consideration too?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2005,01:40) Hi FYI,
Why do these questions not deserve answers too?How can you expect us to take you seriously when you seem selective about answering questions and divert onto tangents instead of giving the questions due consideration too?
Nick,Have you ever taken a color blind test?
Colored circles make up numbers surrounded by gray circles. They are arranged in such a way as to identify which colors you can and cannot see.
The word of God is just like that. All the information and truth is there, it takes the Spirit of God to give you eyes to see it.
You are predisposed to fight against a doctrine that someone has convinced you is not true! This persuasion is not of the Spirit of God!
You have bought into a lie, whether willingly or not.
You have set yourself up to repel the truth.
I would love to answer your questions, but, the response you have shown to this verse alone means that anything I say to you I'm saying to a “color blind” man with regards to biblical truth.
Its my observation that FYI has been answering questions but Nick Hasan has been scurrying away whenever they are asked to him. Thank you FYI your posts are a great help to me.
Quote (Guest @ June 28 2005,02:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2005,01:40) Hi FYI,
Why do these questions not deserve answers too?How can you expect us to take you seriously when you seem selective about answering questions and divert onto tangents instead of giving the questions due consideration too?
Nick,Have you ever taken a color blind test?
Colored circles make up numbers surrounded by gray circles. They are arranged in such a way as to identify which colors you can and cannot see.
The word of God is just like that. All the information and truth is there, it takes the Spirit of God to give you eyes to see it.
You are predisposed to fight against a doctrine that someone has convinced you is not true! This persuasion is not of the Spirit of God!
You have bought into a lie, whether willingly or not.
You have set yourself up to repel the truth.
I would love to answer your questions, but, the response you have shown to this verse alone means that anything I say to you I'm saying to a “color blind” man with regards to biblical truth.
Hi FYI,
Is that your answer to the questions?Quote (Guest @ June 28 2005,02:44) Its my observation that FYI has been answering questions but Nick Hasan has been scurrying away whenever they are asked to him. Thank you FYI your posts are a great help to me.
Welcome L,
Which questions remain unanswered please?Quote (Guest @ June 28 2005,02:44) Its my observation that FYI has been answering questions but Nick Hasan has been scurrying away whenever they are asked to him. Thank you FYI your posts are a great help to me.
laurreus,I appreciate your kind words.
Hi ,
Certainly the views of FYI and his mentors have been extremely popular for 1800 odd years and far, far more so than those of the teachers on this site who rarely find assent.Still it is the eternal approval of another we seek.
All,
Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. Paul explains the context of sonship in Phill. 2:6. Christ's morphe or essence (His permanent element of being), prior to His incarnation, is equal to that of God the Father.
This essence is above, separate, and distinct from all of created beings including man and angels.
The only uncreated thing is God:
Gen 21: 33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD (YHWH), the everlasting (Gr.=olam) God.
That which Christ is, is from within the Father, not by context of creation, but rather from His being “brought forth” from the Father.
John 16:28 – I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
This verse defines two events. The first is a definition of Christ's existence as coming from the Father. The second is of Christ's coming into the world to die for our sins.
The first event happened in eternity past.
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee (according to the flesh) shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Gr.=olam).
The second event in Bethlehem
Hebrews 10: 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Luke 1:35 – And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Phill. 2:6-8 describes what Christ had to lay down to take on the essence of becoming a true human being. The form of His own creation, permanently. None of the event of the incarnation changes “who” He is in relation to the Father, but rather that he took on the form of a servant as well. He is still, and will always be, the only begotten Son of the Living God.
John 1: 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16 – For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
John 1: 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Hi FYI,
Sorry where did you get “equality” from in scripture between the Father and the Son? Do you mean they are both divine and so therefore we say all divine beings are equal? or do you mean what is derived from God remains equal with God?Was the baptism of Jesus a nonevent which changed nothing? Was he always connected to God or was he filled with the Spirit of God? It is only after his baptism we see him moving in the power of God.
If he always had all these advantages in what way are we like to him and how can we possibly follow him?
Scripture says God was “with him”. How can this be if he was always an extension of that God?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2005,03:44) Hi FYI,
Sorry where did you get “equality” from in scripture between the Father and the Son? Do you mean they are both divine and so therefore we say all divine beings are equal? or do you mean what is derived from God remains equal with God?Was the baptism of Jesus a nonevent which changed nothing? Was he always connected to God or was he filled with the Spirit of God? It is only after his baptism we see him moving in the power of God.
If he always had all these advantages in what way are we like to him and how can we possibly follow him?
Scripture says God was “with him”. How can this be if he was always an extension of that God?
Nick,Phill. 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (Gr.= harpogamos – prized or retained), 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
He became a man in every sense of the word, yet without the inheritance of sin from Adam. He retained His identity and fellowship with the Father. He was not “one with the Father” simply because He was filled with the Spirit. Christ enjoyed the fellowship of God just as Adam had in the Garden of Eden prior to his introduction of sin.
Scriptures show no use of power by the Son of God until He is baptized in the River Jordan and filled with the fullness of the Holy Spirit.
Extra-biblical sources such as the Infancy Gospel suggest that He still had power, yet these writings are considered spurious by most all schollars.
Hi FYI,
Adam was a man. According to you he enjoyed the fellowship with God in the Garden just as Jesus does with his Father. That's funny because Adam was a son of God but he was another separate being who enjoyed fellowship with the Father. Are you now saying the Son of God really actually enjoyed separate status from God or not?Quote (Guest @ June 28 2005,03:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2005,03:44) Hi FYI,
Sorry where did you get “equality” from in scripture between the Father and the Son? Do you mean they are both divine and so therefore we say all divine beings are equal? or do you mean what is derived from God remains equal with God?Was the baptism of Jesus a nonevent which changed nothing? Was he always connected to God or was he filled with the Spirit of God? It is only after his baptism we see him moving in the power of God.
If he always had all these advantages in what way are we like to him and how can we possibly follow him?
Scripture says God was “with him”. How can this be if he was always an extension of that God?
Nick,Phill. 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (Gr.= harpogamos – prized or retained), 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
He became a man in every sense of the word, yet without the inheritance of sin from Adam. He retained His identity and fellowship with the Father. He was not “one with the Father” simply because He was filled with the Spirit. Christ enjoyed the fellowship of God just as Adam had in the Garden of Eden prior to his introduction of sin.
Scriptures show no use of power by the Son of God until He is baptized in the River Jordan and filled with the fullness of the Holy Spirit.
Extra-biblical sources such as the Infancy Gospel suggest that He still had power, yet these writings are considered spurious by most all schollars.
Hi FYI,
Do you still believe Phil 2.6 says the Son of God had equality with God?If you already have equality with God then why grasp equality? Only evil beings would grasp or steal [harpazo]what they do not have surely?
If The Son of God had equality with God then you are saying he was not that God or part of that God are you not? If not how can you have equality with yourself?
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