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Nick,
So Christ to you is just a “Teacher”?
You are so wrong,
He is the Glorious son of God in which I have life and salvation. He is my Master and my Lord. He is an Apostle, a Prophet, a Healer and Wisdom and much more, and the means of access to God and all of God's grace.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2005,06:44) You are so wrong,
He is the Glorious son of God in which I have life and salvation. He is my Master and my Lord. He is an Apostle, a Prophet, a Healer and Wisdom and much more, and the means of access to God and all of God's grace.
Son in what sense – you said He was just like us only with the Holy Ghost.Why send His ONLY begotten Son if any old created son would do?
Hi FYI,
His nature was from his begetting in the beginning. As the parable of the vinegrower tells us he was sent because His servants first sent, the prophets were abused and God, the vineyard owner, said” perhaps they will respect my Son”
In John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, “ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou,” In the Greek it means “The Lord of me, and the God of me.”
I'm with Thomas.
Hi Is,
A single line spoken without elaboration by an apostle does not provide a strong basis for a doctrine especially when the being he was speaking to was a vessel for the God of Israel.But that is not the issue anyway.
Heb 1.8
” But of the Son He says
' Your throne O God, is forever and ever, and your righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions”Jesus Christ is the “God” who was “with God” in the beginning. His divine nature as the image of God has never been in question.
In the Hebrews verse quoting Psalm 45 it is clear he is that “God”.
But whose kingdom does he hold the scepter of ? God – The Father.
Who anointed him with the oil of gladness? God – The Father.
Who is this God of Jesus Christ? God – The Father.So how many beings are there here ? Two.
Who is the greater? God – The Father.If one being gives another complete authority who is the greater? The one who gives the authority-God-The Father.
They are not together a compound God.
So what equality is there between them – None.
Are two Gods to be worshipped? No.And who is the God mentioned 3000 other times in the bible? God – The Father.
Quote (Guest @ June 26 2005,06:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2005,06:44) You are so wrong,
He is the Glorious son of God in which I have life and salvation. He is my Master and my Lord. He is an Apostle, a Prophet, a Healer and Wisdom and much more, and the means of access to God and all of God's grace.
Son in what sense – you said He was just like us only with the Holy Ghost.Why send His ONLY begotten Son if any old created son would do?
Hi FYI,
God sent his beloved Son. He gave for us the most precious gift possible, His firstborn, His only 'only begotten' son.Jesus was like to us completely in his human flesh. He was like to us also in that and like the apostles, we as reborn sons of God, can be vessels of the Holy Spirit.
But as soul he was a pure and clean vessel, a golden vessel compared with our earthenware one.
Quote (Guest @ June 25 2005,23:50) Nick, Christ is the Word of God incarnate who was with God and was God,
The first word in Gen 1:1 is in hebrew “brashith” translated “in the beginning”. The last Word in the bible is “Amen”.
http://www.creationism.org/articles/gislen1.htm
Rev 3: 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (“brashith” in hebrew Gen 1:1) of the creation of God;
The context of the verse says that Christ is the Last (Amen) and the First (brashith) word of the complete revelation of God to ALL of mankind, as well as the causal agent in creation. Not the “first created” as you claim.
Otherwise He is NOT “the ONLY begotten Son”!
Mankind is “created” and we are sons of God as created beings and so are the angels. Christ is “The Son of God” being “brought forth” from God as scripture says!
Micah 5:2 – But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Your doctrine makes Christ a created being and not the True only “begotten” Son of God!
You say:
“He is the Image of God and an image is separate from the original.”I reply:
Please show me one scripture that says that Christ as the Word of God prior to His incarnation was the “image” of God.Scripture says that He was in the “form of God” and that He was the “eternal life” that was with the Father in the begining of creation – “the life” and the “light of life”.
John 1:9 That was the True Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. 11 He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
In fact, in Genesis 1:26 God said let us make man in “our” image. So created man is the image of all of God – The Father, Word/Son, and Holy Spirt. Not created in the image of the image of God, that is not scriptural.
You say:
“How can the Son be truly begotten when he remains part of the same substance of God as a trinity?”I reply:
That is my point exactly – yet there was no other agent in His “brought forth” – so – compared to nature which declares God, Like kind begets like kind, God beget God and John 1 even calls Christ the “only begotten God”.Romans 1:20 – For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
You say:
“Many use the confusion of “same substance” arguments to blur whether they mean both are of divine nature, or both remain eternally part of one another because “substance” can have either meaning. Which do you mean?The Son is not eternal retrospectively or he would not be the “only begotten Son”. His eternal nature is from his beginning in the beginning.”
I reply:
Any substance (even though God is a spirit, not corporeal, not matter) brought forth from the Father is of The Father and that substance is “eternal as God is Eternal”, so Christ is eternal “in the Father”. Also, His being “brought forth” is “from everlasting” – a term used to describe eternity. So it is impossible to say Christ had a beginning and NOT infer the passing of time, eternity is the absence of the passage of time – yet there are again no words for us to express eternity without speaking of time. So Christ is “eternally” the ONLY begotten Son of God.You say:
“Jesus Christ brought God to men but not at his incarnation but at his Baptism in the Holy Spirit. He is the Son of God who was sent from heaven. “I reply:
Christ brought us together when He paid the price for our sins.Romans 5:10 – For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Ephesians 2:1 – And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
He was in our midst fully God:
Isaiah 9:40 – The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (YHWH), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 1:23 – Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Zechariah 12:10 – And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me (YHWH) whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Isaiah 45: 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Philippians 2:10 – That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 14: 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Isaiah 6:5 – Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; beca
use I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
John 12: 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw His (Christ) glory, and spake of Him.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin03ex.htmlYou say:
“He was no different to us till his baptism in the visible form of a bondservant. Then his magnificent vessel was filled and he brought God among us. Till then he showed none of the powers and gifts of God's presence in him.”I reply:
You have got to be kidding me! The spotless lamb of God – the Fathers “ONLY BEGOTTEN Son” was the same as us?Christ as “incarnate” man calls God the Father His God but does NOT call God the Father “our God” or “our Father”. The reason for this is that to call the Father “our God ” or “our Father” would be to make Himself “equal” to us – yet He specifically does NOT do this because we are NOT equal to Christ!
John 20:17 – Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 14:20 – At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Galatians 4:8 – Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Christ's “nature” is that of the substance “brought forth” from God – that is precisely why He NEVER rebukes anyone for worship of Himself – He is God.
Christ is of the same substance – spirit, of God since God is a spirit. That is precisely why If God is in you so is Christ and the Holy Spirit – these three are ONE substance – ONE Spirit!
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-yachid-vs-echad.htm
Romans 8:9 – But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1 Corinthians 12:13 – For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Christ was of the same spirit-substance that was eternal in God and was brought forth as the Word of God from the Father himself.
Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Christ is “by nature” God!
Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
In this He became the perfect “spotless” lamb to pay the price of sin for all.
His equality is proven:
Christ –
Revelation 1:8 – I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.Revelation 22:13 – I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
John 10:33 – The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John 8:58 – Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 5:18 – Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10:30 – I and my Father are one.
John 20:28 – And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Did Christ have adequate command of language to properly converse and convey His thoughts so that the hearers understood what He meant?
The only answer is yes – Christ is either “equal” with God as they interpretted, or He intentionally misrepresented himself by NOT correcting them.
Not correcting them would make Christ a liar and a false witness – a sinner, and we would be dead in our sin because the spotless lamb wouldn't be spotless.
Quote from epistemaniac – “It's just not rational to automatically dismiss a given idea just because unbelievers said it, if we do then we would be left with very troubling ideas… for instance.. in James we are told that the demons believe that there is one God… well… since demons believe that there is one God, and we cannot trust the beliefs and ideas of unbelievers, then we have to dismiss the idea that there is only one God.”
The Father God –
Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own bloodBoth Christ and The Father –
Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
John 14:9 – Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Hebrews 3:1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Hi FYI,
Heb 13.8
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever”
Heb 1.3
“He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature”
Coll 1.15
“He is the image of the invisble God, the firstborn of all creation”What Jesus was, he is and what he is, he was. Emptying himself to come in flesh as a man did not change who he was, and is.
God made us in His image. When He said “let us make man in our image” it speaks of more
than one being, not two in one. If we are made in the image of God and Jesus is the image of God then we are also made in the image of the Son of God surely.If Jesus is “the eternal life” that does not state he is coeternal with God. If he was begotten then he cannot have been coeternal. He is the “only begotten God” but begetting speaks of separation.
It relates to the statement in 1 Jn we in the Son have eternal life as that eternal life is in the Son.
Nick,
Hebrews 13 is one of the MOST mis-quoted scriptures. You quote it COMPLETELY out of context.
The verse is speaking of the “Word of God” being the same and as such our judge because He is GOD! It has NOTHING to do with His incarnation.
I see how easy you error when you take scripture out of context!
Romans 14: 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Hebrews 13: 4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.
Revelation 19:13 – And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
The Word of God is Jesus Christ!
I don't have time now to get into the rest of your error.
Hi FYI,
So in what way is Jesus Christ not the same yesterday and today and forever in your opinion?Hi FYI,
So it is not just the incarnation of the Son that is important but the infilling of the Father in the Son as Spirit.
Coll 1.19
” For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him and through him to reconcile all things to Himself”Quote (Guest @ June 26 2005,18:10) Nick, Hebrews 13 is one of the MOST mis-quoted scriptures. You quote it COMPLETELY out of context.
The verse is speaking of the “Word of God” being the same and as such our judge because He is GOD! It has NOTHING to do with His incarnation.
I see how easy you error when you take scripture out of context!
Romans 14: 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Hebrews 13: 4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.
Revelation 19:13 – And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
The Word of God is Jesus Christ!
I don't have time now to get into the rest of your error.
Hi FYI,
So if is the Word of God ,in your opinion, that is the same yesterday and today and forever, and we should not be carried away by strange and diverse doctrines then how come trinity is not taught in the Word of God?
Could this be one of those strange and diverse doctrines we should not be carried away with so be can stand safely before the Judgement seat of Christ?
Do you think that is the White throne judgement or the sheep and goat one?Nick,
So this is the way it works here on HN:
1) We cover a topic.
2) I give you mountains of scripture that is irrefutable.
3) You ask silly questions and mis-quote scripture.
4) We start all over again with the same questions.
I saw this on a bottle of shampoo somwhere – lather, rinse, and repeat
Hi FYI,
None of your scriptures so far have broken the scriptural truth that the Father is God and the Son is the Son of God. You are convinced of this not being true and God existing in a compound form but we hold with scripture.
Surely you would not want us to agree with you without this matter being proven from scripture as with the Bereans?
Please stop seeing humour where it is not intended and answer the serious questions therein that you need to answer to prove your case.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2005,21:16) Hi FYI,
None of your scriptures so far have broken the scriptural truth that the Father is God and the Son is the Son of God. You are convinced of this not being true and God existing in a compound form but we hold with scripture.
Surely you would not want us to agree with you without this matter being proven from scripture as with the Bereans?
Please stop seeing humour where it is not intended and answer the serious questions therein that you need to answer to prove your case.
Jesus was frequently accused of blasphemy (cf. Mark 2.7; Jn 5.19; 10.33; Mt 9.3;) and is said to have been condemned by the Sanhedrin for blasphemy in Mark 14.63-64 and Mat 26:65-66 (softened by Luke in 22.71). There is some question as to how 'loose' a definition of 'blasphemy' was operative at the time. If it literally meant 'claiming to be God', then the charge of blasphemy at the trial stands as evidence for Jesus' self-understanding as being God. If it means, on the other hand, something like 'disgracing God', then it is much weaker evidence (at best). What do we have for data here?There are numerous discussions in the early Jewish literature (e.g. Philo, Rabbinix, Josephus, Qumran, NT) that indicate the range of meanings. The Jewish scholar Vermes points out that the 'tightest' version occurs in the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 7.5) in which the divine Name (e.g. “YHWH”) must be used for blasphemy to occur (JJ:25-36), and other scholars note that Jesus seems to have ACTUALLY used the “I am” in this sense in a number of situations (Jn 5:24,28,58-59; Mr 14.62?) [NIDNTT:3:343–sv. “revile”]. Merely claiming to be the Messiah would NOT have constituted blasphemy (GAJ:262, JJ:35-36; HFJ:272).
Quote (Guest @ June 26 2005,21:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2005,21:16) Hi FYI,
None of your scriptures so far have broken the scriptural truth that the Father is God and the Son is the Son of God. You are convinced of this not being true and God existing in a compound form but we hold with scripture.
Surely you would not want us to agree with you without this matter being proven from scripture as with the Bereans?
Please stop seeing humour where it is not intended and answer the serious questions therein that you need to answer to prove your case.
Jesus was frequently accused of blasphemy (cf. Mark 2.7; Jn 5.19; 10.33; Mt 9.3;) and is said to have been condemned by the Sanhedrin for blasphemy in Mark 14.63-64 and Mat 26:65-66 (softened by Luke in 22.71). There is some question as to how 'loose' a definition of 'blasphemy' was operative at the time. If it literally meant 'claiming to be God', then the charge of blasphemy at the trial stands as evidence for Jesus' self-understanding as being God. If it means, on the other hand, something like 'disgracing God', then it is much weaker evidence (at best). What do we have for data here?There are numerous discussions in the early Jewish literature (e.g. Philo, Rabbinix, Josephus, Qumran, NT) that indicate the range of meanings. The Jewish scholar Vermes points out that the 'tightest' version occurs in the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 7.5) in which the divine Name (e.g. “YHWH”) must be used for blasphemy to occur (JJ:25-36), and other scholars note that Jesus seems to have ACTUALLY used the “I am” in this sense in a number of situations (Jn 5:24,28,58-59; Mr 14.62?) [NIDNTT:3:343–sv. “revile”]. Merely claiming to be the Messiah would NOT have constituted blasphemy (GAJ:262, JJ:35-36; HFJ:272).
Hi FYI,
I would not think your case against Jesus would stand up in any court of Law.You say because Jesus was accused of Blasphemy by the deceived antichrist Jews that is EVIDENCE that Jesus understood himself to be God!!!
No .It is evidence that THEY thought he was claiming to be God but in what possible way does it relate to how Jesus saw Himself? This logic needs some serious explanation.
Jesus said he was the Son of God. That also is the truth.
ps,
If Jesus claimed to be Yahweh then he would have been blaspheming then.Well he did not,
neither do we
but it is you that is doing so?Did Christ have adequate command of language to properly converse and convey His thoughts so that the hearers understood what He meant?
The only answer is yes – Christ is either “equal” with God as they interpretted, or He intentionally misrepresented himself by NOT correcting them.
All He had to say only ONE time is “I am not claiming equality with my heavenly Father!”
Not correcting them would make Christ a liar and a false witness – a sinner, and we would be dead in our sin because the spotless lamb wouldn't be spotless.
Quote from epistemaniac – “It's just not rational to automatically dismiss a given idea just because unbelievers said it, if we do then we would be left with very troubling ideas… for instance.. in James we are told that the demons believe that there is one God… well… since demons believe that there is one God, and we cannot trust the beliefs and ideas of unbelievers, then we have to dismiss the idea that there is only one God.”
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